What did we pay for again?

[FHRaven]

Last year:

Boller @ DEN, 10 points scored, 1 TDs, 2 INTs, rating of 65.2.

This year:

McNair @ DEN, 3 pts scored, 0 TDs, 3 INTs, rating of 34.6. :grbac:

And this tidbit from the Scum Paper:

"In fact, it's worth noting that both Kyle Boller and Anthony Wright had better passer ratings last season than McNair has now."

How long until the "he needs to learn the offense" excuse is no longer valid?

I thought I saw some improvement against SD but Monday night was clearly a huge step backwards. I'd expect someone of McNair's pedigree to get better each week.

FHRaven

[Heap86]

Mac played bad, and he took the complete blame.

No excuses for that.

Our Offense as a whole needs to play better.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

McNair sucked...nobody can defend that performance Monday Night.

Curious...what made you think he turned any corner in teh San Diego game?

Honestly, I think McNair played pretty well against Tampa, but every other game, he has made me scratch my head numerous times.

[Art-Florida]

They're both good guys and both should be utilized. Play McNair in the 1st quarter (Boller starts slow) and in the 4th quarter. (for those patented comebacks)

Play Boller in the 2nd and 3rd, for the strong arm and legs.

That rests McNair and gives Kyle more experience with Steve there to give him tips.

McNair is not our future but is our 'now'.

Boller may not be our 'now' but he may be our future.

"Quarterback by committee"? Yeah, so what? If this plan fails, then it is definitely the system so nothing is lost, till coaching changes have to be considered.

[FHRaven]

McNair sucked...nobody can defend that performance Monday Night.

Curious...what made you think he turned any corner in teh San Diego game?

Honestly, I think McNair played pretty well against Tampa, but every other game, he has made me scratch my head numerous times.

It seemed like he was a little more on target but bad things were just happening. The Mason miss in the sun and the Wilcox fumble for example. Maybe it was just the afterglow of being 4 - 0. :crazy:

FHRaven

[highwater]

The problems with the offense go beyond McNair, but he really has been a disappointment, especially in this game. Three interceptions and no touchdowns, and three points total? If Boller had done that, fans would have wanted to bury him alive.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I really think that more imaginitive playcalling might improve matters. We rarely throw on first down, and we hardly ever throw deep. If we opened up the playcalling a little bit, McNair might have a better chance to make some plays.

[RavenTD]

Any QB in this offense should not turn the ball over, period.It is a cardinal sin for a ball control offense to turn the ball over.

I put it down to McNair playing bad,and the Bronco's defense playing great.

We had that game there for the taking.And McNair gave the ball away in the redzone.I am a McNair pimp,but that damn well made me spit up bile.

[Dont Know]

We rarely throw on first down, and we hardly ever throw deep.

This point was raised on the Brian Billick show and Brian cited some statistics he had access to that contradicted this.

It just isnt true, unless the statistics used by Brian are wrong or he lied about it. Seems unlikely to me.

You do of course have to quantify what you mean by "rarely throw", but the number surprised me. It was a lot more often than I thought eventhough I can't remember the exact number now.

If you didnt catch the Brian Billick show, you can listen to it once it comes up on the official homepage.

I havent heard a number on the deep throws, but I tend to agree there. Pretty much never comes to mind.

[StingerNLG]

Look, it's no secret that the offensive woes don't hang on McNair, just like no matter how much people really closed their eyes and screamed LA LA LA it didn't hang on Boller either. The offensive line is bad, and sometimes this team simply does not come out to play, and that is a coaching issue.

But I will never stop thinking we should have taken that money we ponied up to McNair, and gone out and gotten a quality OL starter at center or RG.

I will say this though. McNair has already done in 5 games what many have bitched about Boller doing in 3 years. He's tripped over his own feet, and the center's feet. He's fumbled the ball without being touched. And now he has more interceptions than touchdowns.

And for their part, the offensive line still can't run block. They can pass block once in a while. They can't pull, push, or even stand still without getting thrown to the ground. And when they are upright they are committing penalties that even cost us touchdowns. Receivers are dropping key passes.

This is why I never had my head buried in the sand at 4-0 because of a couple of lucky fourth quarter drives. SOMETHING HAS TO CHANGE AND IT HAS TO CHANGE NOW!!! Folks, like I've been saying the last 2 weeks, we're just hitting the meat of our schedule now. Carolina, then the bye. Then AT New Orleans. And don't forget we haven't even played Cincy or Pittsburgh yet.

[LBoogy]

I couldn't agree more Stinger. The O-line and the playcalling are the downfall of this team. Our QB's will never get a fair shake at this thing if this shit continues.

I DO NOT understand why no changes are being made. It has been long enough of this bullshit. The play-calling and the stubborness of our staff frustrates me to no end.

Although, I'll say that Jason Brown will improve this line. I think it'll make them closer to adequate for this season

But you're telling me that an offense of Todd Heap, Derrick Mason, Mark Clayton, Mike Anderson, Musa Smith, Jamal Lewis, Steve McNair, and even a big play threat in Demetrius Williams can't produce? Jamal may be done, and our RB's behind him are more than adequate. Hell, I'd rather see P.J. Daniels or Cory Ross come in and be the 3rd back behind Mike and Musa.

After Monday, I thought the O-line was good ENOUGH. They aren't the sole scape goat in this. It's the coaching and the blind loyalty to NOT demote guys like Jamal Lewis and Mike Flynn/Keydrick Vincent.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

I think one thing people are forgetting in that McNair-Moore-Fasselick debacle is that a play or 2 earlier, they called a short screen pass to Clayton that at the very least looked like Clayton could have gotten to the 1 or 2 yard line tha tMcNair just threw 5 yards over Claytons head.

Clayton had 2 pblockers in front of him blocking 2 defenders...you can't miss guys that are 5 yards away and wide open.

[FHRaven]

I think one thing people are forgetting in that McNair-Moore-Fasselick debacle is that a play or 2 earlier, they called a short screen pass to Clayton that at the very least looked like Clayton could have gotten to the 1 or 2 yard line tha tMcNair just threw 5 yards over Claytons head.

Clayton had 2 pblockers in front of him blocking 2 defenders...you can't miss guys that are 5 yards away and wide open.

Exactly. That's the kind of play that had me very concerned. McNair should make that pass 99% of the time. Now it seems he can't. So either he's injured and hiding it or he body has broken down and he can't do it. Neither choice is comforting.

FHRaven

[StingerNLG]

I think one thing people are forgetting in that McNair-Moore-Fasselick debacle is that a play or 2 earlier, they called a short screen pass to Clayton that at the very least looked like Clayton could have gotten to the 1 or 2 yard line tha tMcNair just threw 5 yards over Claytons head.

Compound that with McNair putting the ball right in Jamals chest on a screenish looking pass, and Jamal simply dropping it. Add to that the continuing woes of Mike Flynn. Calling pass plays after Mike Anderson plowed through the Denver defense twice in a row, and then on top of that pulling Mike out again. And who in their right mind even PUTS Clarence Moore in on that endzone play. My 2 year old son knew what was coming!

I have NEVER called for Brian Billick's head before. But I am starting to really believe it's time for a system change. We're now at what, 9 quarterbacks? We've been through new OC's, new receivers, new QB's, new line coaches. The offense has not played as advertised. And I truely believe in the process of these last 7 years Billick may have ruined 2 potentially good QB's in Boller AND Redman. And McNair is here getting run all over the field and pressured so hard he's making Boller-type mistakes. We've beaten up and for all intents and purposes likely run Boller out of town when all is said and done on the promise that McNair changes the dynamic of the offense. And all of a sudden an 11 year, co-MVP, SUPER BOWL QB is putting up a 67 rating and can't even finish off drives in the endzone?

Not all of that is on McNair. A chunk certainly, but not the entire problem. I've begun to see an alternative of where the problem just might be. :(

[Mobtown]

I have NEVER called for Brian Billick's head before. But I am starting to really believe it's time for a system change.


I am in the same boat with you. I have always been a Billick fan and have defended him to the hilt...but this season is his last shot. If we do no better than 10 wins this season, I too will start calling for his head.

[Mista T]

Before Billick should be thrown under the bus: it is Oz who has brought in every one of the Ravens QBs. Blame Billick if you want, but please note that no former Ravens acquired by Ozzie has moved on to another team to sparkle.

:mrt:

[highwater]

If Fassel (or Billick) calls for a screen to Clayton and McNair overthrows him by five or so yards, like Raveninwoodlawn pointed out, that's not Billick's fault. I do think that the coaches need to mix up the playcalling, but I'm not blaming Billick just yet for McNair underacheiving up to this point. He has come through in the clutch a couple of times, but overall he just hasn't been very good. I'm still somewhat optimistic that he'll get better, but the lack of deep passes makes me wonder if he's as healthy as he claimed to be in the preseason.

[Mobtown]

Before Billick should be thrown under the bus: it is Oz who has brought in every one of the Ravens QBs. Blame Billick if you want, but please note that no former Ravens acquired by Ozzie has moved on to another team to sparkle.



True, there is enough blame for both...except that Oz gets a pass from me because of his draft record.

I know that you disagree where Mac is concerned, but this team is LOADED with talented football players. The Ravens are short on gameplaning and execution and both of those problems fall directly to the HC.

[StingerNLG]

I know that you disagree where Mac is concerned, but this team is LOADED with talented football players.

I don't know that even T is saying McNair isn't talented. For his experience alone, he has to be. But this team is not QB friendly, and really what we've done is picked up a QB that is likely 2-3 past his peak, and hoped for the best.

[Mista T]

I don't know that even T is saying McNair isn't talented.

He clearly has been a talented QB, with lots of guts, game savvy, and leadership qualities. He used to be a top 10 QB, especially when complemented by Eddie George and Frank Wychek.

Notwithstanding, after seeing him (mostly in person) in a scrimmage, 4 exhibitions, and 5 games, I have a few concerns that he is not going to overcome. i.e.: giving him half the season to get adjusted to the playbook.

My first concern is that McNair's body may be functioning as if he is lot older than his 33 years. That's been obvious since the Redskins scrimmage. His loss of arm strength is obvious, but also he doesn't attack like he used to as a Titan. Of perhaps greater concern, after Monday night's game, is his decision making. As dumb a call as it was, McNair's decision to throw the pick to Bailey, who had position on Moore, in the end zone was worse. And the second interception, he had a running lane of at least 10 yards, but chose to soft toss into double coverage.

:mrt:

[RavenTD]

I have NEVER called for Brian Billick's head before. But I am starting to really believe it's time for a system change. We're now at what, 9 quarterbacks? We've been through new OC's, new receivers, new QB's, new line coaches. The offense has not played as advertised. And I truely believe in the process of these last 7 years Billick may have ruined 2 potentially good QB's in Boller AND Redman.

Damn,4-1 and on the hotseat.The crazy thing about it.I agree as if the above was written in stone.I hope it turns around and we are all talking out of where the sun don't shine.But Billicks stranglehold on this offense is choking the life out of it.Year after year.

Has he lost some CD's from his offensive guru collection or something?:grbac:

I thought this season would ride on a more even keel.But are we hitting that first dip in the usual Raven rollercoaster ride?The game vs the Panthers will tell us alot.If the offense is still sputtering,even against that great Panther D,
then prepare for more hair loss,head banging against the wall,and nail biting.
Our Raven hearts are lined with protective concrete by now surely?After all this QB exasperating we have gone through.It makes me want to:34853_waah: .

All I can say is,"Say it ain't so offense."

[StingerNLG]

It's not even the playcalling as much as it's the entire system. It's about having weeks where the team on one side of the ball, or both, aren't ready to play and look listless. It's about making comments about how halftime adjustments are overrated, and going on to getting your ass kicked because you didn't make any.

It's about wasting our 2nd round pick on a tackle that hasn't seen a snap this year outside of Odgen's injury and some preseason action. Or a 2nd round LB that hasn't seen the field since preseason despite playing his ass off. Shouldn't a 2nd round pick be making some sort of impact on the playing field even in his first year or two?

And if Billick has Ozzie's ear as much as it;s been written, considering the whole "Boller was Billick's guy" stuff, then how has Billick not fought Ozzie for some proven legitimate OL help the last couple of years? Guess what? Leon Searcy was 5 years ago, get over it. There were two guys from Green Bay to choose from last year, and a couple this offseason. If Billick could see Mike Flynn was no longer the answer at Center, there were not one, but TWO stud centers in the draft; one of which we could have had in the 2nd round.

There are a few things about Billick that has begun to bug me. Those are my starting points.


I hope it turns around and we are all talking out of where the sun don't shine.

RavenTD, I am very much with you. My wife and I will be at the game Sunday. I'd love to be able to chime in on the gamethread Sunday on my Blackberry with a nice "It's about freaking time" post.

[Mista T]

No, I think what has "bugged" you most is Billick and Ozzie got McNair instead of upgrading the OL, which confirmed you were totally wrong about the OL being the main problem. The Raven's main problem as I and other had tried to point out to you repeatedly on the other site was the QB. Ozzie and even Billick finally was smart enough to realize it. McNair has shown this to be the case beyond dispute and you cannot bear it. Admit it, that is what has bugged you, the obvious fact you were wrong. Even now you can't bear to admit it can you?:rolleyes:


Obsession ...... :insane:

[Art-Florida]

T, I want you to work on a way so we can not only ignore this guy, but a way to block his quotes too
.
It's like you're at a stockholders meeting and some crazed doofus starts screaming about evil demons swimming in all the watercoolers.

[StingerNLG]

Unfortunately someone made the decision to let us see his posts again. I don't know why, because it's been nothing but the same shit since then. Apparently he actually CALLED one of the mods and cried like a schoolgirl, and now we're back to having to put up with it.


It's like you're at a stockholders meeting and some crazed doofus starts screaming about evil demons swimming in all the watercoolers.

I used the analogy of a bunch of friends up at the bar having a conversation, and this guy continually trying to butt his 2 cents in when it's obvious no one really wants to talk to him. But he keeps saying the same thing over and over anyway.

EXCEPT:
Tex Ritter
This message is hidden because Tex Ritter is on your ignore list.

We have this. The easy solution is just for everyone to do this manually. Then we don't have to worry about him inserting his unwanted self into our conversations.

It's been working great for me.

[darb72]

No, I think what has "bugged" you most is Billick and Ozzie got McNair instead of upgrading the OL, which confirmed you were totally wrong about the OL being the main problem. The Raven's main problem as I and other had tried to point out to you repeatedly on the other site was the QB. Ozzie and even Billick finally was smart enough to realize it. McNair has shown this to be the case beyond dispute and you cannot bear it. Admit it, that is what has bugged you, the obvious fact you were wrong. Even now you can't bear to admit it can you?
This argument is about to get slapped down. Hard.

So McNair is the only reason we've given up fewer sacks per attempt?

Let's see here.
This year under Fassell McNair was getting sacked every 16.5 attempts (10 sacks, 165 attempts).
Boller got sacked twice in 31 attempts, or every 15.5 attempts.

Now under Billick, McNair has been sacked every 56.5 attempts (4 sacks, 227 attempts)
Boller has been sacked once in 24 attempts.

So under Fassell McNair got sacked every 16 times he dropped back while Boller got sacked every 15 times. Man alive that McNair made our offensive line look great didn't he.

Change in the OC and we see a much improved line for both QBs. I realize Tex can't watch the games (and that is still very funny to me) but that sack on Boller Sunday really shouldn't count as a sack against the offensive line.

Now Tex, I don't want you to read this and think, "Well Darb's reading my post, so I'll have someone to talk to." The only reason we're having a conversation now is happening is because T quoted you. After this it's back to the ignore list for you.

[highwater]

The reason people put me on ignore is they simply can't handle the truth.

:rolling:

I can think of plenty of reasons why people ignore you, but that sure isn't one of them. :laugh:

[FHRaven]

Good Lord, I come back from Xmas vacation and see this guy has bumped my thread from OCTOBER? In all seriousness Tex, you have a real problem. Please seek counseling immediately.

[StingerNLG]

I can think of plenty of reasons why people ignore you, but that sure isn't one of them.

The dude had to cry to a mod to get him off mass ignore because no one wanted to talk to him. So pretty much anything you say to him is going to go in one ear and out the other.

And in between that he'll keep on the same old tired broken record of crap he's probably spewing in every post I don't have to read anymore.

[Mobtown]

The dude had to cry to a mod to get him off mass ignore because no one wanted to talk to him. So pretty much anything you say to him is going to go in one ear and out the other.

And in between that he'll keep on the same old tired broken record of crap he's probably spewing in every post I don't have to read anymore.

Not that it matters, but Tex isn't the only poster here who has "cried" to the mods. You ...people... should lighten up.

http://www.movieactors.com/photos/stripes127.jpeg

[StingerNLG]

Mobby mobby mobby. No one else here has picked up the phone and called the mods have they?

If you're seriously going to defend that, you will lose any respect I have for you.

[Mobtown]

Mobby mobby mobby. No one else here has picked up the phone and called the mods have they?

If you're seriously going to defend that, you will lose any respect I have for you.

Method of communication makes little difference to me. The point of my post is that Tex is not the only person to have moaned to the Mods and that implying that he has done something "beneath" the rest of the posters here is at least a little disingeuous.

[Mobtown]

I only used the phone because no Mod could see my emails to respond to me!!!! Geesh, wouldn't any of you have done the same? It appeared to be some sort of technical glitch and if they can't read my emails how in the hell else would I reach them to get it corrected?::insane:

Thanks Mob, but don't get yourself in trouble over this. Its not worth it.:(


They DO have a point, you are a broken record when it comes to Boller.

[skaybaltimore]

I have NEVER called for Brian Billick's head before. But I am starting to really believe it's time for a system change. We're now at what, 9 quarterbacks? We've been through new OC's, new receivers, new QB's, new line coaches. The offense has not played as advertised. And I truely believe in the process of these last 7 years Billick may have ruined 2 potentially good QB's in Boller AND Redman. And McNair is here getting run all over the field and pressured so hard he's making Boller-type mistakes. We've beaten up and for all intents and purposes likely run Boller out of town when all is said and done on the promise that McNair changes the dynamic of the offense. And all of a sudden an 11 year, co-MVP, SUPER BOWL QB is putting up a 67 rating and can't even finish off drives in the endzone?Wow. This was written back in October. How prophetic it looks now.

GO RAVENS!!!

[purplepoe]

Wow. This was written back in October. How prophetic it looks now.

GO RAVENS!!!


Let's see. Billick took over the playcalling in New Orleans on October 29.

Nice try though.

PP

[highwater]

Wow. This was written back in October. How prophetic it looks now.

What's your point? Or is it simply the same point you make in every single post?

[FadeToBlack]

Last year:

Boller @ DEN, 10 points scored, 1 TDs, 2 INTs, rating of 65.2.

This year:

McNair @ DEN, 3 pts scored, 0 TDs, 3 INTs, rating of 34.6. :grbac:

And this tidbit from the Scum Paper:

"In fact, it's worth noting that both Kyle Boller and Anthony Wright had better passer ratings last season than McNair has now."

How long until the "he needs to learn the offense" excuse is no longer valid?

I thought I saw some improvement against SD but Monday night was clearly a huge step backwards. I'd expect someone of McNair's pedigree to get better each week.

FHRaven

Well, seeing as how the team didn't miss the playoffs and the defense didn't quit due to a lack of confidence in their quarterback and offense in general, I'd say the investment is working out pretty damn well so far.

Sincerely,
13-4

[darb72]

The defense didn't quit? I seem to remember the Colts holding on to the ball for 7+ minutes in the fourth quarter when we were only down by 6.

It's pretty obvious to everybody that you know nothing about football, but I thought you at least watched the games.

[skaybaltimore]

The defense didn't quit? I seem to remember the Colts holding on to the ball for 7+ minutes in the fourth quarter when we were only down by 6.

It's pretty obvious to everybody that you know nothing about football, but I thought you at least watched the games.Darb...what are you talking about? The D played their ASSES off. It was like "the old days", where the O kept waiting for the D to bail them out. Our D kept Manning, Harrison, Wayne, Addai, Rhodes, Clarke, Utech, & Co OUT OF THE END ZONE, man. What MORE do you want? Indy finally brought in a fresh Rhodes and he ground out some tough 1st downs, and Manning completed one totally insane pass to Clarke that was a total backbreaker. (The coverage on that couldn't have been any better.) So don't even go there. You're one of the few people here that I respect; just don't even go there in terms of ragging on the D. The loss was bad enough. Don't degrade it with such nonsense.

GO RAVENS!!!

[darb72]

I was semi-mocking Fade. It's a guilty pleasure.:thumbup:

These... people... love to state opinions as facts, since they can't win an argument without lies.



and the defense didn't quit due to a lack of confidence in their quarterback
This is one of their favorites. Ask them to provide an example of when one of our defensive players has said they give up. They can't, but they continue to spread the word like it's gospel.

I was just pointing out that in the fourth quarter of a game in which McNair choked yet again that the defense gave up a 7 minute drive.

The defense played great last Saturday outside of one drive, but McNair did nothing at all to help them. So using the logic of these... people... the defense must have quit. Hence McNair must be a crap QB.

[FadeToBlack]

The defense didn't quit? I seem to remember the Colts holding on to the ball for 7+ minutes in the fourth quarter when we were only down by 6.

So naturally, that must mean they quit.

I can see you've played a lot of defense in your day. On your 360.

Speaking of quitting, remember you threw in the towel on the whole McNair vs. Boller debate? Right around midseason, you came right out and conceeded McNair was the better player. Funny how you admitted that, and only after a playoff loss do you conveniently begin to flip-flop back on Boller's lap again. What will your position be tomorrow, Fats? How many more opinions will Reality bully you out of before you stop questioning other people's football acumen? How many times must you strike out on these message boards before you start replacing your posting habits with some light exercise?

[FadeToBlack]

This is one of their favorites. Ask them to provide an example of when one of our defensive players has said they give up. They can't, but they continue to spread the word like it's gospel.

OJ never actually said he murdered his wife either.

And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that when a defense plays its ass off season after season, only to see their quarterback repeatedly turn the ball over and kill their time of possession, not to mention put them on short fields, that eventually it will wear the defense down not only physically, but psychologically to the point where they can't maintain their intensity anymore.

In other words, we don't need Ray Lewis or Ed Reed to actually come out and say they were Bollered all those years. We could see it on their face when they walked off the field. We could see it during interviews when a reporter would ask them a question about Boller and watch them dance and spin in their answers, or just be outright evasive in answering the question honestly. Even Todd Heap implied it in his postgame interview after the Chargers game when he said how refreshed he was to have someone ELSE throwing those passes to him down the stretch of that game.

People who know their shit don't need to hear a player say anything, they just observe. Try it.

[Baltoman07]

I think they may have been Anthony "Wrighted" out, but the only player I think that was Anti-Boller was Ray Lewis. I believe he was the one feeding Shannon Sharpe his agenda which blamed Boller for the teams woes. Ray did this mostly from his home in Florida while the rest of the Ravens were playing out the season last year.

[FHRaven]

Well, seeing as how the team didn't miss the playoffs and the defense didn't quit due to a lack of confidence in their quarterback and offense in general, I'd say the investment is working out pretty damn well so far.

Sincerely,
13-4

I'd say it was a waste of money. When you bring an experienced, veteran, "big time" QB to perform in the big games and he loses your opening playoff game, AT HOME, after the defense holds the opponent to ZERO TDs, you got jobbed. Maybe we can go 13-3 next year and watch McNair lose another playoff game!!

McNair's contribution for the year was just to lower of draft pick without actually accomplishing something in the playoffs. Glad you're happy about it!! Way to lower your expectations! :thumbup:

[darb72]

I can see you've played a lot of defense in your day. On your 360.
Unlike you sissy, I have actually played football. I was an All-State defensive tackle my senior year of high school and I signed a scholarship to play defensive tackle in college.


Speaking of quitting, remember you threw in the towel on the whole McNair vs. Boller debate? Right around midseason, you came right out and conceeded McNair was the better player.
I've always said McNair was the better player this year. Even when he played like total crap early in the season I said the system was a QB killer and that I didn't blame McNair anymore than I did Boller.


How many times must you strike out on these message boards before you start replacing your posting habits with some light exercise?
Have you ever met me? Then how do you know I'm fat? Oh wait a minute, you're a lying piece of crap. Facts have never been a strong suit with you... people... has it?


In other words, we don't need Ray Lewis or Ed Reed to actually come out and say they were Bollered all those years. We could see it on their face when they walked off the field.
Actually, you do need that. Since you've probably never played a down of football in your life it's kind of funny for asomeone like you to assume what's going on in the head of a football player.
In high school our offense was horrible. Nobody on defense quit because we had pride. That's a bunch of kids playing for fun.
I promise you that every player in the NFL has more pride in what they do.