Stat comparison updated, 2006 QBs only

[Mista T]

McNair:

@TB... 17/27... 181 yds... 63%... 35 long...1 TD ... 0 INT... 94.8 rating
OAK... 16/33... 143 yds... 48.5%... 30 long...1 TD ...1 INT... 58.0 rating
@CLE... 23/41... 264 yds... 56.1%... 38 long...1 TD ...1 INT... 83.8 rating
SD... 17/30... 158 yds... 56.7%... 29 long... 2 TD... 2INT... 65.7 rating
@DEN... 20/34... 165 yds...58.8%... 26 long... 0 TD... 3 INT... 34.6 rating
CAR... 2/4... 4 yds... 50%... 4 long... 0 TD... 1 INT... 16.7 rating



Boller:

CAR... 17/31... 226 yds... 54.8%... 62 long... 3 TD... 1 INT... 97.0 rating

Is there a trend, perhaps? :229031_confused2:

:T2:

[darb72]

Yeah.

No matter who the QB is we're going to put up the exact same stats passing.

Taking away the one really long lucky TD to Clayton, Boller had an average Ravens day passing.

What I did like to see was him actually moving the ball.

Of the three possessions McNair started, we went punt, INT, punt. Three three-and-outs.

Of the eight Boller started we had four three-and-outs, but one was a fumble and another resulted in a TD.

[RavenDavey]

[QUOTE=darb72;13810]
Taking away the one really long lucky TD to Clayton, Boller had an average Ravens day passing.
What I did like to see was him actually moving the ball.QUOTE]

[FadeToBlack]

So basically Boller's first game was about as good as McNair's this year. The difference is we lost the game.

[FHRaven]

So basically Boller's first game was about as good as McNair's this year. The difference is we lost the game.

How convienient, yet unsurprising, of you to neglect to mention the difference in quality of opponent and the difference in the Raven's defensive performance. :thumbdown:

Just proves the old adage, never let a good fact keep you from slamming Boller.

FHRaven

[Sports Steve]

Your think the OL is bad well here is your proof.


:jester: :jester:

[StingerNLG]

Your think the OL is bad well here is your proof.

Let's count it up now:

Forced Grbac into retirement.

Boller injured

Wright injured

Boller injured

McNair injured


But I'm betting we're going to hear how our OL is as good as some other team in our division. Well, you'll hear it. I won't have to read it. ;)

[Greg]

Oh yeah, if Boller can manage to get two poorly throw balls tipped
You lose any credibility you might have had because you are absurd. The first tip in the endzone was a well thrown ball. The defender either made an excellent play or Mason let it bounce of his grill. I won't know until I see better shots of it than I have seen, the first time around I was in the upper deck on the other end of the stadium. BUT...the ball is drilled into Mason and was on target. It was a very well thrown ball.

If you would be reasonable in your analysis you might not get people pounding your reputation.

[Mista T]

get a more accurate picture you need to look at Boller's career stats and McNair's. That is a more representative sample.

That's a load.:laugh:

Not that I have to, but I will concede that Mcnair used to be a better than average QB for much of his career. Certainly in 1999, when the Titans went to the SB, and in 2000 and 2001, when there were some epic games against the Ravens and the Titans were serious contenders. And in 2003 he shared the MVP award with Peyton Manning. But that was then and this is now. His performance in those years has no bearing on how mediocre he has become. It was obvious to me last season when we played against him that Father Time and multiple injuries had taken their toll. But the degradation since then has accelerated. There is absolutely no relevance between the McNair of 1999 and 2006. Nor is there any relevance to comparing Boller's rookie stats.

What is relevant is how the two compare now: 97 vs. 16.7.:179421:

:T2:

[Mobtown]

T,

You stick to your guns, and I admire that...but I am going to enjoy watching you eat your words over this McNair noodle-arm non-sense. Remember that first drive of the Giants pre-season game? Mac can make the throws.

[Greg]

Remember that first drive of the Giants pre-season game? Mac can make the throws.
:confused: This is what you are going to use? I remember he dinked and dunked his way down the field and the one time he tried to get deep he underthrew a wide open Mason for an easy TD. Now maybe he just made a poor throw but since he has yet to make that throw my guess is he can't. The best throw he has made was the Mason drop going down the sideline against SD.

[Mista T]

You stick to your guns, and I admire that...but I am going to enjoy watching you eat your words over this McNair noodle-arm non-sense.

I would love to be able to eat all my words and see McNair put together a few games equivalent to Boller's last 4 games, while leading the Ravens to a 13 game winning streak. Our offense really needs a shot in the arm, and if the coaches are going to continue to believe that McNair will turn it around by keeping him as the starter, then hopefully McNair can demonstrate that he can throw the ball downfield for a 60 minute game.

As to the "noodle-arm non-sense", it's obviously a subjective call. I doubt there are speed guns on QBs measuring their output. However, I believe that you'd find that many, probably most, fans and media covering the Ravens have come to this realization - like it or not. Try Google search "McNair arm strength" and enjoy reading!

:T2:

[Mobtown]

:confused: This is what you are going to use? I remember he dinked and dunked his way down the field and the one time he tried to get deep he underthrew a wide open Mason for an easy TD. Now maybe he just made a poor throw but since he has yet to make that throw my guess is he can't. The best throw he has made was the Mason drop going down the sideline against SD.


I don't define arm strength as the ability to lob a ball 50 yards. I define arm strength as the ability to get the ball into tight spots with accuracy, to lead a receiver at full sprint (several on that drive), and the ability to make throws to the sideline (also one on that drive).

I KNOW that Mac hasn't made very good throws so far this season, and I am not giving him a pass on those, but this contention that he has a noodle arm (after throwing 3000+ yards just one year ago) is silly. The guy didn't just wake up one day and his arm was completely atrophied. :grbac:

In fact...that INT last Sunday was well OVER-thrown and on a rope. The strength is there...the accuracy just sucks.

The key statement from both yourself and T is "I guess".

I won't go so far as to say that he has the same arm he did in '99...but all this noodle-arm talk is just a way for T to harp on a decision that he was agaisnt before Mac ever put on a purple jersey or tossed a single ball.

anyway...just my .02

[Greg]

Well, I was FOR getting McNair, but I see the same thing, we don't go deep with McNair. In comes Boller and we go deep 6 times. McNair can throw a nice ball but it is all touch and no zip. And his sideline throws...I hold my breath every time. It seems like it takes a week to get out there.

[Mobtown]

Well, I was FOR getting McNair, but I see the same thing, we don't go deep with McNair. In comes Boller and we go deep 6 times. McNair can throw a nice ball but it is all touch and no zip. And his sideline throws...I hold my breath every time. It seems like it takes a week to get out there.


I think we are going to find out once and for all against NO...

My guess is that Billick is going to stop babying Mac and call some deep routes...it seemed obvious to me last week that Fassil was the reason there was a shift in the calls Boller was getting vs. what Mac was asked to do.

Also...remember that Mac sent a good pass in Mason's direction last week...and mason dropped it. =(

[Mista T]

all this noodle-arm talk is just a way for T to harp on a decision that he was agaisnt before Mac ever put on a purple jersey or tossed a single ball.

anyway...just my .02

Yes & no. I had no problem with the idea of bringing McNair in, although my preference, if we were going all out for a new starter instead of a vet to replace AW and complement Boller, was for Brees or Culpepper. Since the day that Boller arrived, I have been in favor of getting a competent but affordable vet to compete with him and to complement him. What irked me was just naming McNair, at his age and beaten up condition with obviously declining skills, as the starter without competition, and then mortgaging our future by overpaying him.

Again: I'll eat all my words if McNair can turn things around and become a quality starter. I want nothing more than Ravens victories. I am not relishing the idea of going down to the Big Easy next weekend for an ass-kicking in the Dome.:bag:

Anyway, talk about "harping on a decision": how many Ravens fans who initially saw McNair as the franchise savior are now just simply ignoring his mediocrity?

As to arm strength, I somewhat agree with Greg. It's not just the inability to throw long. It's the inability to throw mid-range, even short, with zip and accuracy.

:T2:

[Mobtown]

Anyway, talk about "harping on a decision": how many Ravens fans who initially saw McNair as the franchise savior are now just simply ignoring his mediocrity?


Not this one....but then again, I never epected him to be McNabb, or Brady, or Peyton. I expected him to be better than Boller,Collins, or Culpepper, but worse than those other guys. So far I think I have been right.

I still think he has a couple more serious runs in him and that his arm strength isn't as bad as some are making it out to be, but you are right in saying that fans who expected Mac to light it up are/were delusional.

[Mista T]

I expected him to be better than Boller,Collins, or Culpepper, but worse than those other guys. So far I think I have been right.

We can agree to disagree on that one.

Collins had too little training camp to be effective at Tenn, so it's hard to judge if he has anything left. He certainly bombed as the intial Titans starter for 2006. Everything else being equal (i.e. not considering the out-year cap impact), I agree that McNair is a better choice, but I am assuming that we could could have picked up Collins at half the price and a one-year deal, and a full training camp. I saw Collins as Wright's replacement who would have competed for the starting job, and losing the competition.

Culpepper is doing OK with Miami this year, considering the injury. He's got a lifetime rating over 90 and plenty of football ahead of him. Really can't make a call on Culpepper until next season, assuming he gets fully recovered.

I won't bother to recite the McNair vs. Boller discussion again.:grbac:

:T2:

[highwater]

Remember that first drive of the Giants pre-season game? Mac can make the throws.

WTF -- if you have to go back to the first drive of a preseason game to tell us McNair can make the throws, then we're all in trouble, seeing as how we're six games into the regular season.

[StingerNLG]

You mean like McNair did in Denver?

Oh wait, sorry that was a 34.6.

[Mobtown]

WTF -- if you have to go back to the first drive of a preseason game to tell us McNair can make the throws, then we're all in trouble, seeing as how we're six games into the regular season.


WTF it if you want to, but I think that it (along with several other drives this year) shows that Mac can make the throws when asked.

I think the dink and dunk says more about the Fassel play selection than the QBs ability to throw down field.

[Mobtown]

If you don't think that "97" is an abberation you are in for a huge letdown. Boller's next chance if on the road he will likely put up a "32".:laugh:

Totally agree. There is absolutely no reason to think that KB's 97 rating is anything but an aberration. Take those two TDs away or even add two INTs (since the chances of either are equal) and you have a very different number.

[StingerNLG]

or even add two INTs

Sigh. No now let's just add interceptions to Boller's numbers to bring them down??

Well, I guess if all three of McNair's INT's were TD's we'd have totally different numbers than a 34.6 too wouldn't we?

Unbelievable.

[Mobtown]

Sigh. No now let's just add interceptions to Boller's numbers to bring them down??

Well, I guess if all three of McNair's INT's were TD's we'd have totally different numbers than a 34.6 too wouldn't we?

Unbelievable


Look, any tipped ball has an equal chance of being:

Incomplete
TD
INT


I know that isn't how it turned out...but you can't deny the statistical improbability of what happend on Sunday.

I am simply not willing to credit Boller for the results of those plays. If they had been incomplete or INTs this board would be reacting very differently about his performacne than it is today

[StingerNLG]

The first pass was in Mason's catchable range. Sorry, but it was. Hell, even the TV announcers going back and watching said it was a good throw. So you can absolutey give Boller credit for the first tipped pass because the throw was there. The second one of course you give to Clayton. It was a lucky catch.

That said, I doubt anyone would be reacting so different if they were simply incomplete passes because you don't know 1) What would have happened on the next down, or 2) We still would have lost and instead of a 97 Boller would have had a mid-80's rating which STILL would have been acceptable for a backup coming off the bench with no reps in practice.

[Greg]

I think the dink and dunk says more about the Fassel play selection than the QBs ability to throw down field.
Then why the six verticals attempted once Boller came in? Obviously we went downfield a lot more, and even the 20 yard passes were more in evidence. The push downfield was a lot more evident with Boller than it was with McNair.

[Purpleguy]

I was on the fence as far as bringing in McNair. I wanted Brees, and definitely didn't want Collins or Culppeper.

After seeing McNair play 5 games, I'm now all for letting Boller have at it. I knew McNair wouldn't have the best arm, but I expected his accuracy to be top notch. He is off in every aspect of the game. If we are going to use the excuse that he came into camp late, then let's blame Ozzie for again pussyfooting around and not giving up the 4th rounder on draft day.

I really don't think his late arrival is an excuse. He is getting worse as time goes on as opposed to better. One way or another we will end up with KB as our QB this season, and we'll be all the better for it. If the Lewis brothers have a problem with that then they can hit the bricks next season.

[FHRaven]

I really don't think his late arrival is an excuse. He is getting worse as time goes on as opposed to better.

Quiet, you'll confuse people with facts. I guess as McNair is learning the offense more each week his skills are declining at a more rapid rate!

[highwater]

I could be wrong on this but I thought I read a post back this summer during pre-season where a Titan fan stated that McNair is usually slow starting out in a game but comes on as the game progresses.

Oh, well, if ONE Titans fan said that, it must be true. :grbac:

[AZRAVEN]

Starting out slowly is one thing, but he can't continue to save it all for last two minutes of the game.

[Mobtown]

Then why the six verticals attempted once Boller came in? Obviously we went downfield a lot more, and even the 20 yard passes were more in evidence. The push downfield was a lot more evident with Boller than it was with McNair.

Because the Carolina D brought less heat and Boller had time to setup...

Because the Oline managed to give KB enough time to find an open LB to bounce a pass off of...

Because that was the gameplan from the beginning, but Mac was injured before we could see him make any long ball attempts...

Because that's what playing from behind will do to ya...

Because Fassel was playing more to Mac's strength, which is the short game...



I don't really know...but since Mac left the game before the end of the first quarter...we may never get the real answer.




The first pass was in Mason's catchable range. Sorry, but it was. Hell, even the TV announcers going back and watching said it was a good throw. So you can absolutey give Boller credit for the first tipped pass because the throw was there. The second one of course you give to Clayton. It was a lucky catch.

I didn't say that the pass wasn't on target to Mason...but the guy was double covered and the pass was tipped. The ball being catchable isn't the point, lots of catchable balls get tipped and they are NOT counted as completions. The point is that it was fortunate that Clayton came up with the ball and that it was not incomplete or worse.


That said, I doubt anyone would be reacting so different if they were simply incomplete passes because you don't know 1) What would have happened on the next down, or 2) We still would have lost and instead of a 97 Boller would have had a mid-80's rating which STILL would have been acceptable for a backup coming off the bench with no reps in practice.

With the exception of those two passes, let's assume that the game otherwise goes exactly as it did. If those passes were incomplete, KB's completion percentage would have fallen bellow 50% (48.4)...are you seriously saying that is an acceptable completion rate?

The number without those two balls look like this:

Comp Att Yards INT TD Rating
15 31 150 1 1 59.8


Looks pretty McNair-ish to me...

Let me say again, I am pleased with how KB looked coming in and playing having had no 1st team snaps all week...but he did not look like the barn stormer you guys are making him out to be.

Since the chances of a tipped ball being caught by our guy (though, you have to admit that the chances of BOTH going for TDs has to be freaking astronomical) and being intercepted are the same (33.3%), lets also look at how the numbers would have looked in the worst case scanario:

Comp Att Yards INT TD Rating
15 31 150 3 1 33.7

Now look at those numbers and tell me that we would not be having a completely different conversation had Clayton not made KB look like a rock star.

[Greg]

The first one to Mason didn't appear to be double coverage, one defender got his hand from behind Mason into his guy and deflected a very well thrown ball that took a very good defensive play to stop. The bounce after that was lucky but the ball was very well thrown.

If we start changing stats can we give him a completion and the big yardage lost when Mason didn't catch his toss on the hot read? Mason had a huge open field in front of him and obviously didn't expect the ball which hit him in stride.

[Mobtown]

The first one to Mason didn't appear to be double coverage, one defender got his hand from behind Mason into his guy and deflected a very well thrown ball that took a very good defensive play to stop. The bounce after that was lucky but the ball was very well thrown.

If we start changing stats can we give him a completion and the big yardage lost when Mason didn't catch his toss on the hot read? Mason had a huge open field in front of him and obviously didn't expect the ball which hit him in stride.


A tipped ball is very different than a simple incompletion...and you know it. Double covered or single covered makes no difference, the pass was defended.

[Greg]

Thanks for telling me what I know. Here are some other things I also know. Boller looked better than McNair, he threw a better ball and did a better job getting the ball downfield. And this wasn't just looking at McNair's one horrible day, he hasn't looked good for weeks and only looked good sporadically outside of that.

Boller's completion numbers were low for a few reasons. One, a couple of drops, two, no snaps with the first team thus no timing (he JUST missed Heap and Clayton for huge plays) and three, he was actually pushing the ball downfield and trying to make big plays.

I could have a 65% completion rate if I dinked and dunked like McNair.

[Mobtown]

Thanks for telling me what I know. Here are some other things I also know. Boller looked better than McNair, he threw a better ball and did a better job getting the ball downfield. And this wasn't just looking at McNair's one horrible day, he hasn't looked good for weeks and only looked good sporadically outside of that.

Boller's completion numbers were low for a few reasons. One, a couple of drops, two, no snaps with the first team thus no timing (he JUST missed Heap and Clayton for huge plays) and three, he was actually pushing the ball downfield and trying to make big plays.

I could have a 65% completion rate if I dinked and dunked like McNair.

I hear all of that Greg...but Boller did not produced any better than Mac. Your subjective assesment not withstanding. This teams philosophy is about moving the chains and controlling the clock. That philosophy is realized by using the dink and dunk passing game and a strong dose of run, run, run. I can see that you don't agree and that's cool, we can agree to disagree.

[StingerNLG]

This teams philosophy is about moving the chains and controlling the clock.

Well then you can't say Boller did not produce any better than Mac, because McNair and this offense has NOT been good at moving the chains. Boller moved the chains better than McNair has been able to do. It was very evident on Sunday.

And if you want to take away Boller's tipped passes, then take away Mason's circus catches in Cleveland. I mean, if we're going to punish one QB for the receiver making a lucky or good catch, let's be fair.

[Greg]

This teams philosophy is about moving the chains and controlling the clock.
In just over 3 quarters of play Boller got 16 first downs (none by penalty, btw), McNair had none. Extrapolated out, Boller probably gets 20 for the game. We had 78 first downs in the previous 5 games, about 15.5 per game. Again, Boller was on pace for 20 with no first team snaps.

[Mobtown]

Well then you can't say Boller did not produce any better than Mac, because McNair and this offense has NOT been good at moving the chains. Boller moved the chains better than McNair has been able to do. It was very evident on Sunday.

And if you want to take away Boller's tipped passes, then take away Mason's circus catches in Cleveland. I mean, if we're going to punish one QB for the receiver making a lucky or good catch, let's be fair.

I can't help but wonder if you guys are arguing just for the hell of it.

Circus catches are not the same as tipped balls. With a circus catch the route and the direction of the pass are INTENTIONAL.

Boller's two tipped passes were nothing but flukes. You can try to argue the point all day long if you like, but you will never convince me that Boller meant (and therefore deserves credit for) those TDs.





In just over 3 quarters of play Boller got 16 first downs (none by penalty, btw), McNair had none. Extrapolated out, Boller probably gets 20 for the game. We had 78 first downs in the previous 5 games, about 15.5 per game. Again, Boller was on pace for 20 with no first team snaps.



Yup, that's pretty good...not great, but good. for the 20th time, I am not arguing the fact that Boller had a decent day, but if it was better than what Mac has done, then it's by a small margin.

First downs are kind of a tough stat to compare QBs with though since there are so many other factors involved, especially how well the opposing defense is playing. I only brought up the first down thing to remind you that we are not a deep threat team and that the dink and dunk is our bread and butter.

[StingerNLG]

Circus catches are not the same as tipped balls. With a circus catch the route and the direction of the pass are INTENTIONAL.

And so are tipped balls. Just because a lineman gets a hand on it doesn't mean the throw wasn't intentional. That makes no sense.



Boller's two tipped passes were nothing but flukes. You can try to argue the point all day long if you like, but you will never convince me that Boller meant (and therefore deserves credit for) those TDs.


Once again, Boller's first pass HIT IT'S INTENDED TARGET. IT WAS NOT BATTED AT THE LINE, IT POPPED UP OFF OF THE TARGET HE THREW IT AT. Exactly the same thing you just described as the circus catch. So yes, Boller 100% absolutely can get credit for the first TD. He made the throw. Mason couldn't make the catch. Clayton did. If Mason made a circus catch to hold onto the ball would you still be saying Boller didn't deserve it?



Yup, that's pretty good...not great, but good.

16 first downs in three quarters isn't great? What other teams are you putting that up against then??

[Greg]

First downs are kind of a tough stat to compare QBs with though since there are so many other factors involved, especially how well the opposing defense is playing. I only brought up the first down thing to remind you that we are not a deep threat team and that the dink and dunk is our bread and butter.
That is the second time that has been contended and I will now say BULL. Up until McNair this team under Billick has "gone vertical" 4-8 times per game, most games 5-6. Under McNair, 1-2 times per game, tops.

Billick's offensive philosophy is built on the idea of explosives. With Boller at the helm we went for explosive plays much more, even though the score was close (hell, we were leading at one time).

[Mobtown]

And so are tipped balls. Just because a lineman gets a hand on it doesn't mean the throw wasn't intentional. That makes no sense.


Are you seriously arguing that a tipped ball is INTENTIONAL and is not a broken play? :grbac:





Once again, Boller's first pass HIT IT'S INTENDED TARGET. IT WAS NOT BATTED AT THE LINE, IT POPPED UP OFF OF THE TARGET HE THREW IT AT. Exactly the same thing you just described as the circus catch. So yes, Boller 100% absolutely can get credit for the first TD. He made the throw. Mason couldn't make the catch. Clayton did. If Mason made a circus catch to hold onto the ball would you still be saying Boller didn't deserve it?


Which of our receivers catches the ball is irrelevant. Once a ball is tipped, it is considered a broken play. That is why there can be no pass interefence called. Scream and yell all you want, it doesn't change the fact that it was a broken play.

Even if I did agree, you are talking about a 14yrd pass. Boller's rating is still only 75.1 with a 51% completion...which is OK, but definately not what I would consider great.




16 first downs in three quarters isn't great? What other teams are you putting that up against then??

It is the only stat that you can find that in any way supports your argument. I would counter that there are many other factors that contribute to that number and that it is not a good measure of the quality of the play at the QB position. That is why it is listed as a team stat and not as an individual one.

[StingerNLG]

Are you seriously arguing that a tipped ball is INTENTIONAL and is not a broken play?

You're trying to take two seperate passes and make them the same. That doesn't work.



Which of our receivers catches the ball is irrelevant. Once a ball is tipped, it is considered a broken play. That is why there can be no pass interefence called. Scream and yell all you want, it doesn't change the fact that it was a broken play.


Again, you're trying to marginalize the fact that the pass was on target. That was a catchable ball that Mason couldn't come up with for whatever reason he couldn't. It's not the same as having the ball tipped at the LOS and landing in the arms of a receiver. Two different situations. That's the difference.


I would counter that there are many other factors that contribute to that number and that it is not a good measure of the quality of the play at the QB position.

I've used that same counter about factors and stat skewing based on what happens around the QB. The problem is whenever it's Kyle Boller, that doesn't seem to matter. I once argued, as people like Ron Jawarski have, that the QB position is one that requires the most help from the entire rest of the offense to make it's stats. But only if your name doesn't start with the letters KB. Then stats mean everything. So I gave up on that and use the same philosophy on McNair.

But the bottom line is that like it or not, Boller averaged the same 1st down percentage as McNair (I'm not quibbling over .5). So the arguement that McNair was better at moving the chains is incorrect. That's all we were saying.

BTW:


Scream and yell all you want, it doesn't change the fact that it was a broken play.

Scream and yell all you want, it was a touchdown. ;)

[purplepoe]

If McNair threw that first TD pass, Im willing to bet that alot of people on this thread would be calling it bullshit and lucky.

And that pass was well thrown but Mason was being blanketed by the DB.

I saw the play live and a replay or two and IIRC, the DB's hand got in there to disrupt the play.

2 of the TDs were fluky.

Boller looked OK. Nothing more, nothing less. He looked OK.

His INT was a terrible decision. His throw to Heap was placed perfectly where only Heap could've caught it. And there you have it in a nutshell. Real good and real bad. All I've wanted out of him is something in the middle.

PP

[StingerNLG]

Here's the problem as I see it PP. Boller doesn't have the market cornered on bad decisions in this offense. 7 interceptions by McNair, and 2 of them hit opponents right in the chest. The one against Carolina Heap was wide open in the flat and McNair didn't even LOOK there.

This is why I keep arguing about this system and how it's continuing to kill QB's.

As far as the 1st TD, I'm watching it right now. It's too fast to get a definitive picture for you, and slowing it down seems to only blur the play. But that ball from the first angle looks like it hits Mason, not Gamble. Fluky? could be. Good decision and good throw? Absolutely. Maybe that's the point and Mobtown and I are looking at two different arguements.

And for the record, I never called McNair's throws to Mason in Cleveland lucky throws because Mason made yoga-like circus catches. That's what a receiver does for you sometimes. Just like against Carolina.

[Mobtown]

You're trying to take two seperate passes and make them the same. That doesn't work.

Again, you're trying to marginalize the fact that the pass was on target. That was a catchable ball that Mason couldn't come up with for whatever reason he couldn't. It's not the same as having the ball tipped at the LOS and landing in the arms of a receiver. Two different situations. That's the difference.

I am not trying to argue that the ball was not on target or if it was a good pass. It was, but the pass was defended and tipped in the air. A tipped pass is a tipped pass regardless of whether it happens at the LOS or anywhere else on the field. At that point, it becomes something else outside the scope of the original design, a broken play.


I've used that same counter about factors and stat skewing based on what happens around the QB. The problem is whenever it's Kyle Boller, that doesn't seem to matter. I once argued, as people like Ron Jawarski have, that the QB position is one that requires the most help from the entire rest of the offense to make it's stats. But only if your name doesn't start with the letters KB. Then stats mean everything. So I gave up on that and use the same philosophy on McNair.

Bottom line for me is that so far...they both suck. We need better QB play, regardless of who is taking the snaps. However there are those here who would have you believe that KB enjoyed some kind of break out game on Sunday...or at least that his play was good enough to unseat the current starter. IMO that is not the case, and I believe that the numbers support my opinion.


But the bottom line is that like it or not, Boller averaged the same 1st down percentage as McNair (I'm not quibbling over .5). So the arguement that McNair was better at moving the chains is incorrect. That's all we were saying.

I am with you there...they are the same or at least similar. It was Greg's stance that Boller was significanly better at converting first downs, not mine.



Scream and yell all you want, it was a touchdown. ;)


No doubt. That fact is the reason why I have not tried to argue any of Mac's stats. Following my own logic, a few of Mac's INTs this year should not "count" because they were the result of tipped balls...

BUT

At the end of the day the points still count and so do the INTs.

That truth is undeniable, however, when I am assessing the quality of QB play, I cannot help but recognize and diffentiate between, intentional results and results that were achieved via luck, fluke, divine intervention or whatever else you want to term it.

In my mind it is similar to dropping the highest and lowest scores on a series of tests. By doing so your data is more representative of the expected average results.

[StingerNLG]

I am not trying to argue that the ball was not on target or if it was a good pass. It was, but the pass was defended and tipped in the air. A tipped pass is a tipped pass regardless of whether it happens at the LOS or anywhere else on the field. At that point, it becomes something else outside the scope of the original design, a broken play.

I eluded to this with my response to PP. I think we're talking about two different aspects of the same thing.



Bottom line for me is that so far...they both suck. We need better QB play, regardless of who is taking the snaps. However there are those here who would have you believe that KB enjoyed some kind of break out game on Sunday...or at least that his play was good enough to unseat the current starter. IMO that is not the case, and I believe that the numbers support my opinion.

Honestly, I don't agree about the numbers part. If we're talking about statistical numbers, right now KB is the better option across the board numerically.

THAT SAID

I have no desire to bench McNair at this point. There are others, some who I actually didn't expect to see, calling for Boller to start. I'm not in that group. McNair has to get better. I supported Boller starting before McNair arrived, but McNair is here and he has to remain the starter. And every week I will sit in my seat or on the couch and hope he turns the offense around. That's just the way it is.

Besides, I've said a couple times Boller's future isn't here. I would be suprised as anyone if he entertains the idea of resigning here when he could head to KC or Minnesota or someplace with an aging QB and get a shot at a starting job. Behind Kansas City's line, he could be successful. With our line, no QB will be successful.


In my mind it is similar to dropping the highest and lowest scores on a series of tests. By doing so your data is more representative of the expected average results.

We can disagree to an extent, but I respect that.

[Mista T]

at least that his play was good enough to unseat the current starter. IMO that is not the case, and I believe that the numbers support my opinion.

I was with you all the way up to that statement. How can the numbers of the most recent (the last four games) for each guy support your case? :229031_confused2: Kyle is looking like he's is (finally) getting it with three of four games rated over 97, while Mcnair looks to be in a free fall.

:T2: