Quick hits on the Ravens' outlook

[ExiledRaven]

I don't think these are too controversial, but here are thing possible outlooks

1) We don't make the playoffs. I think in this case blow up the team and fire Billick. By blow up I mean, JO, Jamal, Ray, Mulitalo, Flynn, Vincent, McNair, Mason, Rolle out. We need get a new HC and clean house and start over. I think this was the plan from the beginning. We'd also have to grab a QB in round 1 or somehow shoot ourselves in the face for not getting a guy who has just been winning like Brees. We'll worry more about this if we don't make the playoffs, but by contracts this was clearly the plan for this year. Defense would still be great play 3-4 with pryce-ngata-gregg...then AD-mike smith-scott-suggs, cmac-landry-reed-pittman (I-AA guy, remember it takes these guys more time to adjust)

2) We limp into the playoffs and get dominated. I think this is the same as #1.

3) We win a wild-card game then get dominated. I think even in this case we'd probably do the same as #4

4) We make a serious run, say make it to the championship game or further. I think in this case we might stick with the plan, see if we can add a couple offensive linemen via free agency and go for it. We try one last time to make a run for the old core of vets.


Alright,

All things said, if we get smoked, not the score, just completely outplayed and outcoached and lose to NO, I think we're in for a full meltdown and #1 is more likely that not.

We'll see how it plays out, but those are the two basic scenarios for this team.

Say whatever you want about coaching, players, etc. But their ability to work together and fix the problems is going to be everything. This team has equal capability to both be special and be the most disgustingly ugly implosion and waste of talent outside the Raiders.

The trouble is, even if we do make a run, I am more inclined to think blowing up the team and being rid of billick is the best thing to do for the long term.

I will continue to hope we get back on track and win, but I am concerned.

[Mista T]

JO, Jamal, Ray, Mulitalo, Flynn, Vincent, McNair, Mason, Rolle out.

I'd keep JO, Ray & Mason. Maybe Mulitalo for another season.




We need get a new HC and clean house and start over.

Oz too.

:T2:

[bassgtrst]

The only person I would dump Oz for would be DeCosta.

Even so if Oz was dropped some team would jump right on him. We would have to trade him. Can you even still do that?

[crowdog89]

Oz too.

Absolutly. He's responsible for not seriously upgrading the O line...and drafting all these O line "projects" in the 2nd rounds and beyond over the past 8 years.

If you are going to draft an O lineman in the 2nd round, he'd better be damn ready to step on the field day one. Not have to "bulk up" or "learn the ropes" or some such nonsense. Half of them we've never seen on the field, they get cut. The rest only see the field due to injury of one of the starters....

Either draft or thru FA or trade, up grade the damn O line.

I don't care who the qb, wideouts,te's, or rb's are...with a mediocre O line, a football team ain't going far offensively.

[AZRAVEN]

And I think we all know what team it is that would be jumping on Oz should he leave Baltimore don't we...

[Merlin]

For those of you thinking about getting rid of Oz ; the grass is really greener on the other side. Just remember we could have the O's equivalent of the Ravens. (but at some point the Cardinals will get better given how good Leinart is)

What brilliant person with a better track record would come in and replace Oz?

The key issue is whether this group can learn from their mistakes (e.g., Bellichek learned his lessons from Cleveland) -- I see evidence so far that they are trying with multiple decisions this year.

[ExiledRaven]

I'd keep JO, Ray & Mason. Maybe Mulitalo for another season.

I could see those, they are the 4 I thought about the most....but here is my take on that.

JO will probably retire if he thinks there isn't a chance we can really win.

We honestly, can get someone to play like Ray has played this year for a lot less. He's also the soul of the "old" Ravens. At any rate, no one should give him a new contract and a big signing bonus.

Mulitalo I could see for another year if he's ready to go, I just wouldn't count on him to be anything more than mediocre.

Mason is the one I am really torn about. But I think he'd really want to move on and have a big shot at a superbowl. So this one is really up in the air. It'd be more of a "so what do you want to do?" and let him make the decision.


At any rate, looking at this stuff is depressing. I really really hope we pull this drama back together and whip the snot out of NO.

:taz:

[camdenyard]

I just don't think we can say where this team will end up. Last week, the Steelers looked ready for the first shovel of dirt. Now they look like they are "back". Cincy lost to a winless team and it looks like Carson Palmer is lost. Guess what, from week to week things change.

What I see is that this team has the talent to get to the postseason, and I think it has the appropriate leadership.

Once a team gets to the postseason, it's usually the hottest team that makes it to the Super Bowl. By December, McNair could be firing on all cylinders and Jamal could be running like his old self. Or not. It's not like college football.

[LBoogy]

Absolutly. He's responsible for not seriously upgrading the O line...and drafting all these O line "projects" in the 2nd rounds and beyond over the past 8 years.

If you are going to draft an O lineman in the 2nd round, he'd better be damn ready to step on the field day one. Not have to "bulk up" or "learn the ropes" or some such nonsense. Half of them we've never seen on the field, they get cut. The rest only see the field due to injury of one of the starters....

Either draft or thru FA or trade, up grade the damn O line.

I don't care who the qb, wideouts,te's, or rb's are...with a mediocre O line, a football team ain't going far offensively.

I've been saying this for a long time. Rack Crowdog. Good post.

[JonG316]

Someone please explain to me how the oline has been neglected.

Adam Terry: 2nd round
Jason Brown: 4th round
Chris Chester: 2nd round


Thats three different first day picks on three different positions.

Let me guess, it's cause they aren't starting. Look at Farve in Green Bay, thats what happens when you just start young linemen, two years from now they may be good but your just calling it in for a couple seasons.

[PurpleRulz]

Someone please explain to me how the oline has been neglected.

Adam Terry: 2nd round
Jason Brown: 4th round
Chris Chester: 2nd round


Thats three different first day picks on three different positions.

Let me guess, it's cause they aren't starting. Look at Farve in Green Bay, thats what happens when you just start young linemen, two years from now they may be good but your just calling it in for a couple seasons.


Here's an idea, let's play these guys. Billick needs to have Flynn and Vincent to step aside for these kids. Vincent and Flynn should be on the bench, otherwise, none of this matters.

[PARavensJeff]

We have drafted Terry & Chester the past 2 years in the 2nd round, which is 1st day picks. Brown was a 4th rounder, 2nd day pick. The reason it looks like the line, which everyone knows is in need of an overhaul, is continually ignored. Yea, you can say they have drafted these guys, but where are they? Brown is only playing becasue Big Ed is hurt. If not for that, he would still be sitting. We hear that Terry, who we traded up to draft, & Chester are "projects" & need to put on weight & muscle in the weight room. Look at these other teams around the league, the Patriots, Chargers, etc who draft kids in the 4th, 5th, 6th rounds & throw them out there & they can play right away. Our guys have to learn or get stronger. Then why the hell did we draft them so high?

[Kaven]

Terry and Chester were both draft choices that the Ravens could not afford to miss on. While not wanting to give up on either, I see a distinct possibility of failure. Chester's size or lack of it is so obvious. That alone makes him a work in progress. Terry is a reach that eventually someone has to be held accountable for. I wish both men the best, but I don't see it happening.

[Art-Florida]

Terry and Chester were both draft choices that the Ravens could not afford to miss on. While not wanting to give up on either, I see a distinct possibility of failure. Chester's size or lack of it is so obvious. That alone makes him a work in progress. Terry is a reach that eventually someone has to be held accountable for. I wish both men the best, but I don't see it happening.

Huh, Terry a reach? He was rated one of the top 4 tackles in that draft, and had done well in his limited playing time filling in for J.O. I project Terry being a fixture at left tackle when Jonathan hangs it up. He may not have the same number of Pro-Bowl appearances, but he won't be an embarrassment either.

Chester = unknown at the moment, but I'll trust the F.O. on this one for now.

[sailorsam]

If Rex Ryan were more experienced I'd think (if the Ravens miss the playoffs and changes are made) they could make him HC, keep the D intact, and bring in a new OC; instead they'd probably have to hire a new HC with an offensive resume (Jim Fassel--well, maybe not him). I'd be careful about dumping Ozzie; a good GM is, imho, harder to find than a good coach.
Steve Spurrier might want to give the NFL another try!!!
seriously--one reason they kept Billick another year, I think, was lack of better alternative. who out there, is a potential (superior) replacement? recycle Jim Mora or Jerry Glanville? they're defensive coaches anyway.
consider; Ken Wisenhunt, OC of the Squealers?

[Mobtown]

Ken Wisenhunt, OC of the Squealers


I would love this...but it ain't gonna happen.

[edreedisgod20]

Ha! Saying we should dump Ozzie is like saying we should cut CMac after getting burned once by Marvin Harrison. You just don't know how spoiled you are.

Just for a minute, imagine being a Browns fan. Now that that trauma is over, do you still want to ship Ozzie out?

[sandiegosean]

How many great offensive players has Ozzie drafted? Think about it, in ten years that's at least 100 players, how many good offensive ones. Did Ozzie draft Boller and forget to have a veteran back-up? Did he than surrond the rook with scrap heap receivers and lineman and expect it to work? Did he compound his mistakes by trying to give us TO and David Boston? Look the guy has drafted good defensive players, but it's not like the scouting department isn't as much responsible for that. Lastly Ozzie has a losing record with the Ravens, Billick has a winning one.

[RAVENOUS52]

Billick and Ozzie will stay and your heart medication will finally kick in.

Don't panic and whatever you do, don't soil your underpants.

[sandiegosean]

R52-
You live in Vista? I use to coach the basketball and football team for the Panthers.

[Greg]

Think about it, in ten years that's at least 100 players, how many good offensive ones.
Actually, we get 7 picks per year, so that is about 70 (plus or minus a few for trades). Out of those, great offensive players? Heap, Ogden, Jamal, possibly Clayton. Undrafted FA Priest Holmes. Solid picks, Jeff Mitchell, Edwin Mulitalo, Casey Rabach, Stokley, etc.

The problem is the OL hasn't gotten the talent other areas have. This is either because Ozzie and the scouts have misjudged the talent, don't value OL talent enough or the right player just was not there when we were drafting. Ozzie is a strict best player available and more often than not apparently the best player wasn't OL.

I think this is probably because we haven't ranked the OL high enough in value. But who knows.

[RAVENOUS52]

R52-
You live in Vista? I use to coach the basketball and football team for the Panthers.

Cool stuff...That would explain their losing history...LOL Just kiddin':laugh:

Anyhoo, I check out the Ravens each week (except this one) at Rookies on El Camino Real...Nice enough place with good menu selection. Drop me a line if you wanna hang out or maybe check out an Aztecs game...I have pretty good business connections in the area and would love to catch a game with another Ravens maniac!:thumbup:

[GreenWave52]

How many great offensive players has Ozzie drafted? Think about it, in ten years that's at least 100 players, how many good offensive ones. Did Ozzie draft Boller and forget to have a veteran back-up? Did he than surrond the rook with scrap heap receivers and lineman and expect it to work? Did he compound his mistakes by trying to give us TO and David Boston? Look the guy has drafted good defensive players, but it's not like the scouting department isn't as much responsible for that. Lastly Ozzie has a losing record with the Ravens, Billick has a winning one.

Good-Great Offensive Players:
Jon Ogden (Pro-bowl)
Jamal Lewis (Pro-bowl)
Priest Holmes (Pro-bowl)
Ed Mulitalo (Pro-bowl)
Chester Taylor
Mark Clayton
Todd Heap (Pro-bowl)
Casey Rabach
Alan Ricard (Pro-bowl)
Brandon Stokely

[ExiledRaven]

I do agree we undervalue the OL

Now look at the Good OL players drafted, they're either on the downside of their careers and with the team (JO, Ed), let go and replaced with something terrible (Mitchell), or played well but we had already spent too much money on the current starter rather than seeing what the guy could do before we did that (Rabach).

Now look at the other slots.
Lots of good RBs, some nice younger WRs, we see a lot of young talent.

Where is our starting OL talent?

I think also sticking with the old OL was a bid to maintain chemistry because tampering with the OL is risky and Billick's head is on the block, so that's the safest thing to do ~ go with what you know.

[AZRAVEN]

Unfortunately, what we know sucks.. and has sucked for some time.

[sandiegosean]

Good-Great Offensive Players:
Jon Ogden (Pro-bowl)
Jamal Lewis (Pro-bowl)
Priest Holmes (Pro-bowl)
Ed Mulitalo (Pro-bowl)
Chester Taylor
Mark Clayton
Todd Heap (Pro-bowl)
Casey Rabach
Alan Ricard (Pro-bowl)
Brandon Stokely

You think that's good in eleven years? When did Mulitalo make the pro bowl? Taylor, Rabach and Stokley are OK players. I'll give you JO, Lewis and Heap. Clayton is still way too early to say and Holmes was a free agent. That is not a good track record in 11 years of drafts. Now look how many good defensive players he drafted in the same time period. Night and day.

[sandiegosean]

I do agree we undervalue the OL

Now look at the Good OL players drafted, they're either on the downside of their careers and with the team (JO, Ed), let go and replaced with something terrible (Mitchell), or played well but we had already spent too much money on the current starter rather than seeing what the guy could do before we did that (Rabach).

Now look at the other slots.
Lots of good RBs, some nice younger WRs, we see a lot of young talent.

Where is our starting OL talent?

I think also sticking with the old OL was a bid to maintain chemistry because tampering with the OL is risky and Billick's head is on the block, so that's the safest thing to do ~ go with what you know.


Meanwhile Marcus McNeil is a great starting tackle for the Chargers and Chester taken seven slots ahead has been inactive for most of the games.

[sandiegosean]

Cool stuff...That would explain their losing history...LOL Just kiddin':laugh:

Anyhoo, I check out the Ravens each week (except this one) at Rookies on El Camino Real...Nice enough place with good menu selection. Drop me a line if you wanna hang out or maybe check out an Aztecs game...I have pretty good business connections in the area and would love to catch a game with another Ravens maniac!:thumbup:

Are you kidding? Vista is a San Diego powerhouse in football, probably top five in the county. This is their first down year in the last 15 years.

[AZRAVEN]

Meanwhile Marcus McNeil is a great starting tackle for the Chargers and Chester taken seven slots ahead has been inactive for most of the games.

That has always been confusing to me, with the exception of a couple guys (JO and Mule) it seems like no matter where we draft these guys they become "projects" that need to sit on the bench for years before they ever see the field. Other teams seem to be able to plug rookies into their lines and they do okay, why can't we? what am I missing??

[Purplenemesis]

I was seriosly pissed the second the Ravens traded down. I wanted Marcus Mcniel from the get go but I guess the Ravens wanted a 10 year project with "potential". Oh, and dont get me started on our 3rd round pick who may never see the field EVER... Mcneil was one of the top offensive lineman in the draft and should have been drafted in the first round. If we would have drafted him in the second round, that would have been an awesome draft and we would be on our way to establishing a real offensive line

[Ravenflash]

Look at Farve in Green Bay, thats what happens when you just start young linemen, two years from now they may be good but your just calling it in for a couple seasons.


Yes, lets look at Farve in Green Bay. Lets see how their offense compares to the Ravens.

Offensive Rank: Overall

Green Bay (9th) 341.2 yds/game

Baltimore (28th) 271.7 yds/game

Perhaps you're right, who wants to be in the top ten in offense anyway? :eyes:

[PeterB58]

Clayton is still way too early....Ok....if you are going to judge Newsome over the entire 11 years, don't you think it is a bit unfair to then discount players taken in years 10 and 11? If you want to say it is too early to judge Clayton, fine. But then make the evaluation over the period 1996 to 2004.
.... and Holmes was a free agent.So? It still reflects the fact that they scouted him and had him rated highly enough to offer him a FA contract. I am sure many, many teams did not even seriously scout Holmes, much less offer him a contract.
Meanwhile Marcus McNeil is a great starting tackle....Oh...I see. McNeal is "great" after 5 games but Clayton is "too early to tell" after 1+ year?.....LOL, your powder-blue slip is showing again, Sean.

[sandiegosean]

Peter-
He is great compared to Pashos. My point is, even if you throw in Clayton and Holmes that's still a terrible drafting record in 11 years of quality offensive players. It's less than one a year, sorry but that's not going to get it done. In 11 years we've drafted three quality lineman(JO,Mitchell, Edwin), one receiver(Clayton), two backs(Jamal, Priest), one TE(heap) and zero quarterbacks. That is piss poor drafting on that side of the ball, please explain to me how that is satisfactory?

[PeterB58]

First, I never said it was satisfactory (you putting words in my mouth again? ;) ).

That said, I don't think anybody can argue that Newsome has built "great" offensive teams, either. But I also think you need to look at it in the perspective of the entire team. If you are using high draft picks on defense (which the Ravens have done for most of Newsome's tenure), then of couse the offensive side of the ball is going to suffer. Yes, McNeil is better than Pashos, but then Reed is better than Kiel.

On balance, Newsome has fielded a very competitive team year in and year out....and as a fan, that is really all that I can expect. Would I have liked to see more offense during his tenure? Sure. But maybe that one more offensive player drafted means the Ravens defense is not good enough to win SB35...or maybe they win 2 more. Who knows?

I am just not ready to throw Newsome under the bus because of the team's recent struggles.

[sandiegosean]

Peter-
The thing is, I agree with you. My point of this whole thread is to make people aware that Ozzie is just as much responsible as Brian for our poor offenses. So if fans are quick to throw Brian under the bus, Ozzie better be behind the other tire. People can't have it both ways. They want to credit Ozzie for these great defensive players, but give no credit to Brian for molding them. Maybe it's the coaching that's making these low picks and free agents play above their ability.

[sailorsam]

the current Ravens management seems good at drafting excellent defensive players (Suggs, Adalius) and can put together a competitive team, 8-10 wins a year. Dumping Ozzie etc is taking a risk; maybe we get an upgrade and get better; maybe the new group is worse. this is ultimately the decision Stevie Ray and his brain trust must make.
if BB can turn the O around and the team wins 10-11 and has a good run, his decision will be easy; stay with the current group. if this collapses 6-10 or so, it's time to clean house. what do you wanna bet the team wins 8-9 games and no playoff run? is this management group 'good enough' to keep, or do we want to break up and try something/someone different?