Arm Strength Overrated?

[PurpleRulz]

I am currently watching the Cards/Bears game on NFL Replay. Leinart has not shown me great arm strength, yet he passed the ball with great efficiency and accuracy. I also think of Tom Brady as a QB without great arm strength, but with great accuracy.

My point is that we don't need McNair to have a "big arm" a la Kyle Boller. If McNair can cure this uncharacteristic lack of accuracy, we are going to be fine on offense.

Screw having a big arm. Once McNair finds his accuracy, the positive difference will manifest.

[Greg]

Dude, when he throws an out I hold my breath, and it takes so long to get out there I think I will pass out waiting. Maybe his arm is so gone that he has to work so hard he has little accuracy. I don't know, but he hasn't even been accurate dinking the ball. He might be accurate on an out, but a cat in a wheelchair playing corner can almost close on those lazy ducks out there.

A big arm isn't necessary, but a reasonable arm is.

[FHRaven]

I am currently watching the Cards/Bears game on NFL Replay. Leinart has not shown me great arm strength, yet he passed the ball with great efficiency and accuracy. I also think of Tom Brady as a QB without great arm strength, but with great accuracy.

My point is that we don't need McNair to have a "big arm" a la Kyle Boller. If McNair can cure this uncharacteristic lack of accuracy, we are going to be fine on offense.

Screw having a big arm. Once McNair finds his accuracy, the positive difference will manifest.

And after 5 games of "uncharacteristic inaccuracy" how much longer should it take the ultra-probowl-stud QB to become accurate?

By the way, McNair's completion % is under 60% for his career so let's not pretend he was Joe Montana with wheels for his career.

[Heap86]

Dude, when he throws an out I hold my breath, and it takes so long to get out there I think I will pass out waiting. Maybe his arm is so gone that he has to work so hard he has little accuracy. I don't know, but he hasn't even been accurate dinking the ball. He might be accurate on an out, but a cat in a wheelchair playing corner can almost close on those lazy ducks out there.

A big arm isn't necessary, but a reasonable arm is.


Explain this to me? How did McNair lose his throwing arm in the course of one year?

Mac still had an arm against us last year, and threw for over 3000+ yards.

You think maybe the OL and having to constantly throw from your back foot might have something to do with accuracy problems?

Mac still has an arm, but he never had an arm like Boller's

[Mista T]

Explain this to me? How did McNair lose his throwing arm in the course of one year?

He didn't. His arm wasn't real strong last season either. It didn't look too powerful to me at the game in Nashville, plus a game or two on the tube. Just like I added a few more grey hairs since last season, Mcnair's arm has just gotten worse this year.

:T2:

[highwater]

Arm strength is overated when you cannot place the ball with accuracy.

I'm not sure what your point is, since McNair has not shown arm strength OR accuracy so far this season, not on any consistent basis.

[darb72]

I would take McNair throwing left handed over Boller throwing right handed. Arm strength is overated when you cannot place the ball with accuracy. That was the big knock on Archie Manning. He had a cannon that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Fortunately for his sons, they are far more accurate.

Wow. Simply wow.

Do you really want to see the stats again?

McNair has completed 56% of his passes with these receivers this year.

Last year, with the same receivers, Boller completed 58% of his passes.

And Boller has a 6 YPA while McNair has a 5.

[AZRAVEN]

I don't think you have to have a "canon" for an arm but you do have to be able to throw the ball with some zip and definitely accuracy. McNair has shown neither this season.

[darb72]

Well OldFa... I mean Tex has said that in every game he's watched McNair has been dead on accurate.

I'm actually kind of inclined to believe him.:thumbup:

[AZRAVEN]

Well with his vast number of years of observing football Tex must be right. :laugh:

[darb72]

You do realize that our defense has given up 15 or more points once this season right? McNair is 4-1 in those games. Last year Boller and Wright were 5-2.

Explain to me why 2/3 or 66% of the series McNair has started have ended after 1 or fewer first downs.

If McNair is so much better than Kyle, why is McNair the lowest rated QB in the league? With these same receivers Kyle at least had a rating of +70. McNair has failed to hit the low bar of mediocrity we have come to expect from our QBs.

Why is McNair constantly over/under throwing wide open receivers? Watch a game and get back to me on that one.

[ravenjoe]

Quite an ongoing debate. As we can all agree, stats don't win ballgames. What makes a successful QB, rather, is his ability to stay cool during 'crunch' time; make right decisions; and have the absolute confidence of his teammates. Even though I like Bollers work ethic and dedication to being the best he can be, a great QB either has it, or he doesn't! McNair may not be putting up the numbers (just yet); but, he is definitely the man to lead this team forward, IMO! Of course, only time will tell, and we should know better as the season progresses.

[Heap86]

Do you really want to see the stats again?

McNair has completed 56% of his passes with these receivers this year.

Last year, with the same receivers, Boller completed 58% of his passes.

And Boller has a 6 YPA while McNair has a 5.

WOW!! What a huge margin!!

Not to mention that Boller was in his third year with the team last season, and McNair has played in a total of 6 regular season games here.

Boller has slightly better numbers than McNair has with alot less time here, I'm impressed :eyes:

FYI, for those who keep bringing up how great Brees and Kitna are in there first years with there new teams, Take a look at there Offensive Lines, Case Closed!!

[Greg]

WOW!! What a huge margin!!
That difference is about the same CAREER advantage McNair has over Boller. LOL, accuracy and more completions were all the rage a few months ago.


Not to mention that Boller was in his third year with the team last season, and McNair has played in a total of 6 regular season games here.

With THESE WRs, Boller has little more time.

For all of the machinations and spinning done to excuse McNair (time with the team) the REAL adjustment isn't the system, all that is is terminology. The REAL DIFFERENCE is in the personnel, and McNair is MORE familiar with Mason, Clayton and Heap as a group than Boller is.

Now the big thing is COOL under fire. How did Boller do that last few times he had the ball when the team needed a score last week? If the defense could have stopped the Panthers at all, we have a shot to at least tie and maybe win that game.

[FHRaven]

FYI, for those who keep bringing up how great Brees and Kitna are in there first years with there new teams, Take a look at there Offensive Lines, Case Closed!!

Too funny!! Now the Oline matters when you bring up other QBs and McNair. Kyle was supoosed to succeed despite the same crappy Oline? :rolling:

I'd love it if the Haters would stick to one set of criteria rather than switch back forth depending on what suits their needs. I've never seen a group of people so determined to defame someone to the point where they feel the need to judge everyone else by a lower standard to make their (lack of) point.

[StingerNLG]

Too funny!! Now the Oline matters when you bring up other QBs and McNair. Kyle was supoosed to succeed despite the same crappy Oline?

Of course! Remember the rules and you'll be able to play along. Boller gets no such excuses. Steve McNair gets OL, receivers dropping passes, and bad playcalling.

Fh, it doesn't work if you don't use the double standard.

I just think it's funny as Greg pointed out the utter stumbling over themselves to excuse an 11 year former MVP and Super Bowl QB from absolutely falling flat here in Baltimore thus far. But I predicted this before he was even signed.

[ravenjoe]

Let's evaluate whether or not McNair "falls on his face" based on how the Ravens end-up. To do so now, quite honestly, is a bit premature!!

[Mista T]

I predicted this before he was even signed.

I had thought he was on the downside of his career, but honestly did not see him performing this badly. I truly hope that he either can turn it around to start earning the big bucks and help get the Ravens into the playoffs, or, if not: that he does the honorable thing by admitting to himself that he has lost it, and retires at the end of the season.

btw: If he does retire, do we get any cap relief from his $11 million bonus?

:T2:

[StingerNLG]

Let's evaluate whether or not McNair "falls on his face" based on how the Ravens end-up. To do so now, quite honestly, is a bit premature!!

Is it? What was the purpose of bringing Steve McNair here? The whole idea I thought was to put a spark in the offense and to change the way the offense has run. So exactly what has changed considering right now statistically McNair is playing worse than Kyle Boller?

Really, McNair is going to have to play very much near lights out to pull this offense out of the rut we're in. Yes, it may look premature, but you can't tell me you're not the least bit concerned at this point?

[ravenjoe]

They're 4-2, and tied for first with McNair at the helm. Whether or not this continues, we'll see. However, I am a bit concerned; but not with McNair. I'm concerned with a lack of a running game, and a defense which can not get off the field on critical third downs Against quality opponents.

[StingerNLG]

Those things concern me as well, as the running game can dictate the passing game as we all know. But I am really concerned with an offense that can't finish drives, can't throw touchdowns to their wide receivers, can't run, and have actually at times gone backwards on successive possessions. That's not what a Steve McNair-led offense should look like. We really shouldn't be hoping the wind isn't blowing in Matt Stover's face so he doesn't miss a 52 yard field goal to beat Cleveland.

If we go into NO and beat the shit out of them, and then take Cincy at home and throw 24 points up on them and win, I'll feel a whole lot better than I do right now. Right now I'm just afraid this offensive line is going to get McNair hurt again.

[Greg]

btw: If he does retire, do we get any cap relief from his $11 million bonus?
Maybe, if his contract has a stipulation for that. Or, if he returns a portion out of the goodness of his heart. There hopefully is a contract stipulation (and probably, Barry Sanders had one as did Ricky Williams).

[ravenjoe]

Actually, if we can put up Ws against both NO and Cincy; begin establishing our running game; have McNair manage the game successfully, Especially in Critical situations (which is the reason, I believe, the Ravens brought him here!); and have a Defense which will start playing three-and-out, then I believe we're headed in the right direction.

[StingerNLG]

Actually, if we can put up Ws against both NO and Cincy; begin establishing our running game; have McNair manage the game successfully, Especially in Critical situations (which is the reason, I believe, the Ravens brought him here!); and have a Defense which will start playing three-and-out, then I believe we're headed in the right direction.

I am very much in agreement with you there. But before I get excited about that, they've got to show me something in New Orleans. Right now my confidence isn't what it was after Tampa.

[FHRaven]

Actually, if we can put up Ws against both NO and Cincy; begin establishing our running game; have McNair manage the game successfully, Especially in Critical situations (which is the reason, I believe, the Ravens brought him here!); and have a Defense which will start playing three-and-out, then I believe we're headed in the right direction.

You're not asking for much are you? :rolleyes:

[ravenjoe]

I really believe this game in NO is critical, much in the same way the Tampa game was! If we can get a solid Victory, this should infuse some much-needed confidence into both the team (and the coaching staff) which is really needed right now! I think the team is teetering on a precipice right now, and it could either way.

[ravenjoe]

You're not asking for much are you? :rolleyes:
Well, if these things don't happen, then we are Not going to advance to the next level, and see you next year!!

[ravenjoe]

You may be right in that assessment; however, if our D can apply much-needed pressure on Palmer, especially in key situations (which they have not done in the past), And we can control the ball with a solid running game, then maybe we have a chance of pulling it out. But right now, the Bengals, IMO, are the favored team to advance as division champs. We have not established yet IMO the ability to advance to the next level.

[ravenjoe]

Yea, and that's why our D has to Really step-it-up that game and pressure the Hell out of him (something they really have not done against the better teams this year). If not, Palmer will 'take us to the cleaners'!

[ravenjoe]

I know, and so Rex has got to do a real good job of disguising the blitz package; otherwise, Palmer will make us pay, just like he has done in the recent past. I do believe, with the right packages, we can confuse Palmer enough in order to get a couple of key turnovers. The rest of the responsibility rides on our O, which if the running game is going (Cincy has a weak run D), and McNair does a good job of managing the game (something we have Not been able to do in the past), then maybe we can steal one.

[darb72]

WOW!! What a huge margin!!

Not to mention that Boller was in his third year with the team last season, and McNair has played in a total of 6 regular season games here.

Boller has slightly better numbers than McNair has with alot less time here, I'm impressed :eyes:

FYI, for those who keep bringing up how great Brees and Kitna are in there first years with there new teams, Take a look at there Offensive Lines, Case Closed!!

Once again I find myself asking why is the offensive line getting blamed for McNair sucking?
Why is the system getting blamed for McNair sucking?

Last year people like you, CR and Poe all said it was Bollers fault. To a person you said that if we got McNair our offense would improve.

News flash. It hasn't.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't blame McNair, just like I don't blame Boller. All QBs in this system put up exactly the same stats. It's just funny that hypocrites like y'all are now saying the same thing I've been saying for years, except you still think all of the problems the past three years have been Bollers fault.

[FHRaven]

Exactly! :iagree:

Suddenly now that McNair is the QB all of the "excuses" that were deemed unacceptable for Boller are perfectly fine for McNair.

Here are the facts:

McNair was brought in to improve the offense - has not happened.

McNair was going to "make the Oline better" - has not happened.

McNair was going to "improve the running game" - has not happened.

Now the team is heading into the hard part of the schedule and we're supposed believe he still needs to learn the offense?

Well, I hope that I am 100% wrong but so far I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for McNair to improve.

[ravenjoe]

Exactly!

McNair was brought in to improve the offense - has not happened.



I beg to disagree. IMO, McNair was brought in to Win ballgames! The Ravens are currently 4-2, and share first place.

[FHRaven]

I beg to disagree. IMO, McNair was brought in to Win ballgames! The Ravens are currently 4-2, and share first place.

The team is 4 - 2, not McNair. Or is the QB the only player on the field?

If the season was only 6 games long this would great. Unfortunately there are 10 more games to go against higher quality opponents.

Anything to add to my other points? Or are they irrefutable? :thumbup:

[ravenjoe]

The ONLY point that matters to me is the Ravens W-L record!

[RavenDavey]

IMO, McNair was brought in to Win ballgames! The Ravens are currently 4-2, and share first place.

More credit goes to the defense and Stover, and less goes to McNair for being 4-2.

[Mobtown]

McNair was brought in to improve the offense - has not happened.

McNair was going to "make the Oline better" - has not happened.

McNair was going to "improve the running game" - has not happened.





Actually, you are wrong on all three accounts:





This is from the Ravens PR Staff: Through 3 road games this year, the Baltimore Ravens own a 2-1 record as compared to an 0-3 mark in 2005. The turnaround in record is in no small way solely due to the improvement on the offensive side of the ball. The Ravens have gained 100 more yards (868-to-768), scored more points (45-to-33) and committed fewer turnovers (3-to-6) in the opening 3 road games this season compared to their 1st 3 away contests of last year. Baltimore has also cut down on costly penalties in 2006. This year, the Ravens have committed a total of 12 fouls(for -70 yards) compared to 42 penalties (for -320 yards) through 3 road games last year.


http://www.ravens24x7.com/column_view.php?cid=42&id=688&view=archive

[Greg]

... opening 3 road games this season compared to their 1st 3 away contests of last year.
Great, so McNair is better than Anthony Wright.

[Mobtown]

Great, so McNair is better than Anthony Wright.

I was just responding to FH's contention that the O was no better than last year...

I can understand that perception, but it simply isn't reality.

Oh...and remember AW and KB have very similar numbers.

[Greg]

Over their career they have "similar" numbers, but Boller's recent upswing is not anywhere in Wright's numbers. And Wright was HORRID in those games. Worse than Boller. No first downs in the first half against FRICKIN Tennessee!

[FHRaven]

Actually, you are wrong on all three accounts:





http://www.ravens24x7.com/column_view.php?cid=42&id=688&view=archive

Wow, you wasted 5 minutes of your life selectively pulling stats that include games Boller didn't play. And now we're only looking at away games? Don't the home games count as well?

Here are the stats that makes sense:

Rushing in 2006 3.5 yds per carry
Rushing in 2005 3.6 yds per carry

Looks the same to me.

And if the Ravens didn't bring McNair in to improve the offense what was the point in spending $33 million on him? :grbac: Here's more:

Total offense in 2006 271 yds per game 5th worst in the NFL(With Boller having the more yards in 3 quarters than McNair has had in all but one game!)
Total offense in 2005 293 yds per game, 9th worst in the NFL

Seems to be decreasing....... :eek:

And in 2006 so far we've (McNair) played 3 teams with a grand total of 4 wins together. And 2 of those 4 were against the other bottom feeders in the league.

Next time bring some real stats to the table. :thumbup:

You know as well as I do that on YBR it was said AS IF IT WAS FACT by the Boller haters that bringing any QB in would improve the three areas I mentioned. So where's the improvement?

[Mobtown]

Wow, you wasted 5 minutes of your life selectively pulling stats that include games Boller didn't play. And now we're only looking at away games? Don't the home games count as well?

First of all...I didn't pull those stats, I just copied them from the link I provided. If you have a problem with their validity, tell it to the Ravens PR department. They clearly show an improvement over last year regardless of who the QB was and since we have an excellent home record, using the away games (where we have a terrible record) is a good indicator of improvement.

The offense HAS played better as a group...but I am sure that improvement will be credited to anyone except Mac...




Here are the stats that makes sense:

Rushing in 2006 3.5 yds per carry
Rushing in 2005 3.6 yds per carry

Looks the same to me.



Is that a 6 game average or 16?


And if the Ravens didn't bring McNair in to improve the offense what was the point in spending $33 million on him?

I will be the first to say that Mac has not played as well as I had hoped, but I have decided that I will give him 2 more starts before I start tearing him apart over every little mistake he makes. Also, we spent 12m on Mac...not 33m. Still too much for a guy who has played as poorly as he has.




Here's more:

Total offense in 2006 271 yds per game 5th worst in the NFL(With Boller having the more yards in 3 quarters than McNair has had in all but one game!)
Total offense in 2005 293 yds per game, 9th worst in the NFL

Seems to be decreasing....... :eek:


Yup..and that sucks. Fortunately for us, there are still 10 games to be played in 2006. Hopefully we will do better.




And in 2006 so far we've (McNair) played 3 teams with a grand total of 4 wins together. And 2 of those 4 were against the other bottom feeders in the league.

Next time bring some real stats to the table.



We also have played 3 perenial playoff teams, with a combined record of 13-6.



You know as well as I do that on YBR it was said AS IF IT WAS FACT by the Boller haters that bringing any QB in would improve the three areas I mentioned. So where's the improvement?


Not by me...but feel free to generalize.



FH, I don't actually disagree with a lot of what you are saying, but your open hostility towards other members of this forum make me want to rub your nose in the mistakes you do make. It really is unnecessary and I am asking you politely to rethink the way that you address your fellow Ravens fans.

[darb72]

"They clearly show an improvement over last year regardless of who the QB was and since we have an excellent home record, using the away games (where we have a terrible record) is a good indicator of improvement."

So you're picking and choosing which games we'll be using to measure improvement? Intresting.

Since we all know that the offense is putting up worse stats than it did last year, I guess it stands to reason that McNair sucks really, really bad at home.

Now let's look at some more just flat out confusing statements from Mobtown.

"The offense HAS played better as a group...but I am sure that improvement will be credited to anyone except Mac."

Followed by;

"Yup..and that sucks. Fortunately for us, there are still 10 games to be played in 2006. Hopefully we will do better."

So the offense has improved, yet the offense hasn't improved? Do you have any idea what you're trying to say?

"We also have played 3 perenial playoff teams, with a combined record of 13-6. "

Oh ok. Then I guess Kyle really deserves a lot of props for his game against the Packers last year since they've won a lot of NFL Championships. Because we all know that a franchises history has a lot of bearing on how good they are now.

" but your open hostility towards other members of this forum make me want to rub your nose in the mistakes you do make. It really is unnecessary and I am asking you politely to rethink the way that you address your fellow Ravens fans."

When has FH been openly hostile? I haven't seen him threaten anybody. Of course, considering you think the offense has improved despite stats to the contrary, I have to believe you're just making things up again.

[highwater]

FH, I don't actually disagree with a lot of what you are saying, but your open hostility towards other members of this forum make me want to rub your nose in the mistakes you do make. It really is unnecessary and I am asking you politely to rethink the way that you address your fellow Ravens fans.


I don't know exactly where that came from, but I'd hardly describe FH as an openly hostile poster.

[FHRaven]

I don't know exactly where that came from, but I'd hardly describe FH as an openly hostile poster.

Eh, people don't like being called out when they post bulls**t. I don't have a problem pointing it out when I see it or blatant hypocrisy for that matter.

If that makes me "hostile", so be it.

[FHRaven]

First of all...I didn't pull those stats, I just copied them from the link I provided. If you have a problem with their validity, tell it to the Ravens PR department. They clearly show an improvement over last year regardless of who the QB was and since we have an excellent home record, using the away games (where we have a terrible record) is a good indicator of improvement.

The offense HAS played better as a group...but I am sure that improvement will be credited to anyone except Mac...

Yes, I'm sure the Raven's PR department wouldn't try to manipulate the stats to makes their $33 Million invest look better would they? :rolleyes:

The non-selective stats I pulled tell a different story.


Is that a 6 game average or 16?

You're kidding, right? That's your big defense? If we're 2 - 4 games into the season than I'd be with on the small sample size issue. But 6 games is fair enough to make some assessments.


I will be the first to say that Mac has not played as well as I had hoped, but I have decided that I will give him 2 more starts before I start tearing him apart over every little mistake he makes. Also, we spent 12m on Mac...not 33m. Still too much for a guy who has played as poorly as he has.

I agree except that I've seen enough after 6 games. And it's not that he's just playing poorly. The offense looks WORSE than last year! WORSE! :grbac:


Not by me...but feel free to generalize.

Nowhere did I single you out as making those comments. But anyone who has spent any time on YBR knows that to the Boller haters he was the cause of all offensive ills. The 3 things I noted were the ones that were harped on constantly. Now that nothing has improved, those reasons are used as excuses for McNair. :eek:



FH, I don't actually disagree with a lot of what you are saying, but your open hostility towards other members of this forum make me want to rub your nose in the mistakes you do make.


When I finally make a mistake feel free to rub my nose in it. There's a few posters on YBR still holding out hope for that.

Trust me, I'll be more than happy to admit being wrong if McNair somehow turns it around and leads this team deep into the playoffs. :hammer:

[Mobtown]

Darb, I guess this means I am off your ignore list?



So you're picking and choosing which games we'll be using to measure improvement? Intresting.

Yes. I used an especially weak portion of our game. Anytime you use stats to prove a point you are doing the exact same thing...showing only one piece of a larger picture.



Since we all know that the offense is putting up worse stats than it did last year, I guess it stands to reason that McNair sucks really, really bad at home.


some stats are worse, some are better...just like the quote from baltimoreravens.com shows. Penalties for example, Sacks and PPG would be other examples.




Now let's look at some more just flat out confusing statements from Mobtown.


"The offense HAS played better as a group...but I am sure that improvement will be credited to anyone except Mac."

Followed by;

"Yup..and that sucks. Fortunately for us, there are still 10 games to be played in 2006. Hopefully we will do better."


So the offense has improved, yet the offense hasn't improved? Do you have any idea what you're trying to say?

Nothing confusing there…I am saying that we are doing better, but not as good as I would like.




Oh ok. Then I guess Kyle really deserves a lot of props for his game against the Packers last year since they've won a lot of NFL Championships. Because we all know that a franchises history has a lot of bearing on how good they are now.

Huh? 13-6 is the CURRENT record of those 3 teams.


" but your open hostility towards other members of this forum make me want to rub your nose in the mistakes you do make. It really is unnecessary and I am asking you politely to rethink the way that you address your fellow Ravens fans."



When has FH been openly hostile? I haven't seen him threaten anybody. Of course, considering you think the offense has improved despite stats to the contrary, I have to believe you're just making things up again.

That’s sweet of you to stick up for FH.

[Mobtown]

Yes, I'm sure the Raven's PR department wouldn't try to manipulate the stats to makes their $33 Million invest look better would they? :rolleyes:

The non-selective stats I pulled tell a different story. [/QOUTE]

All stats are selective...unless you are posting all available stats. As for using PR numbers...well, number are numbers. So long as they are acurate, what difference does the source make?



[quote]
You're kidding, right? That's your big defense? If we're 2 - 4 games into the season than I'd be with on the small sample size issue. But 6 games is fair enough to make some assessments.


I agree except that I've seen enough after 6 games. And it's not that he's just playing poorly. The offense looks WORSE than last year! WORSE! :grbac:



It wasn't intended to be a defense...it was just a question.


Nowhere did I single you out as making those comments. But anyone who has spent any time on YBR knows that to the Boller haters he was the cause of all offensive ills. The 3 things I noted were the ones that were harped on constantly. Now that nothing has improved, those reasons are used as excuses for McNair. :eek:

I hold the position that neither QB is worth much and the use of selective reasoning is rampant on both sides of the argument.





When I finally make a mistake feel free to rub my nose in it. There's a few posters on YBR still holding out hope for that.

Trust me, I'll be more than happy to admit being wrong if McNair somehow turns it around and leads this team deep into the playoffs. :hammer:

I suppose that is something we can all agree on. Winning certainly has a way of curing what ailes you.


GO Ravens.

[darb72]

Darb, I guess this means I am off your ignore list?
It's like I told Stinger. I didn't pick on the Special Ed. kids when I was in school, so I'm getting a feel for what it would have been like. Kudos to all you Haters for doing such an outstanding job by the way. If I didn't know better why I'd just bet you all had an extra chromosome floating around somewhere.


Yes. I used an especially weak portion of our game. Anytime you use stats to prove a point you are doing the exact same thing...showing only one piece of a larger picture.

Yeah, in most circles that's called telling half the truth, or "lying" if you prefer.

You said the offense has improved. Then to back up your claim, you only used stats that would support your argument.
Now if you had said our offense has improved on the road, then you would have an excellent point with your stats. However you said the offense has improved, implying a general improvement, while FH has posted the stats that proved you wrong.


Nothing confusing there…I am saying that we are doing better, but not as good as I would like.

FH posted stats that show we have actually gotten worse. You didn't deny it, you actually said it "sucks". You admit that our offense has gotten worse,but continue to deny it.


Huh? 13-6 is the CURRENT record of those 3 teams.

Then I misunderstood what you were trying to say. Now exactly what is McNairs record against those three teams? What do his stats look like?


That’s sweet of you to stick up for FH.

More to the point of proving you wrong yet again than actually sticking up for FH.

[FHRaven]

[quote=FHRaven;15634]Yes, I'm sure the Raven's PR department wouldn't try to manipulate the stats to makes their $33 Million invest look better would they? :rolleyes:

The non-selective stats I pulled tell a different story. [/QOUTE]

All stats are selective...unless you are posting all available stats. As for using PR numbers...well, number are numbers. So long as they are acurate, what difference does the source make?


It wasn't intended to be a defense...it was just a question.


I hold the position that neither QB is worth much and the use of selective reasoning is rampant on both sides of the argument.

I suppose that is something we can all agree on. Winning certainly has a way of curing what ailes you.


GO Ravens.

That was weak. Move along, nothing to respond to here. :193: