The OL -- Young or Just Bad?

[highwater]

After watching another poor performance by our OL -- and I don't just mean the pass protection, they also didn't open a lot of holes for MaGahee -- I started wondering: are they a talented but inexperienced group that will improve with more playing time, or are they simply not that good to begin with? Obviously I'm not talking about Ogden or Flynn, neither of whom are playing well either, but the young guys.

Could it also be that they are playing out of position? Maybe Chester could develop into a decent center but isn't very good at guard, where he has seen some time. Maybe Terry would be better at LT instead of RT. I don't know, but these guys are high draft picks, and just don't look that good so far.

I just don't see how this offense can put together a good game without better OL play.

[StingerNLG]

The OL from the early part of the season played much better than this one. Adam Terry is NOT a good right tackle. But he is a good left tackle.

Chester should be playing center, and Brown should be playing guard.

And we need to set that in place and LEAVE it there. If the Ravens want to salvage anything positive out of this season, they need to sit Ogden and FLynn down and tell them thank you for everything you've done for the Ravens and we love you.........but it's time to pass the torch to the young guys and let them develop. We need to do this for the good of the team.

[xmradiodave]

They are young,inexperienced AND bad. I have to say though, since I have given up on expecting wins, I now enjoy watching the young guys get some much needed experience. They will develop with time. This season is just pre-season for next year. At least they have some game film to watch and work with. Nothing beats real world experience. They are learning things they do not learn in practice.

As bad as things are right now, I have faith that this team will turn the corner... eventually.

[RavenTD]

Lets look at this realistically, we have three young guys learning the ropes.

One vet who should have retired and is wondering what he will do when he does retire while he is still out on the field.

And one vet that has always been subpar and has always been the target of Raven fans frustration.

If this isn't a recipe for disaster then I don't know what is.It's like trying to dam a river with 5 sticks.It brings back that old NFL film clip,where a player on the sideline shouts out to the field,"We don't want to get our QB killed!"

[RavensNTerps]

One plus, yesterday Grubbs and McClain looked GREAT...especially Grubbs...

[RustonRifle]

The O-line isn't bad. I feel they are young and improving. Like anyone else they are going to miss some assignments/plays.

The quarterback can make the O-line seem worse than it actually is.


People were saying in 2005 how bad the O-line was. Last year the O-line was somehow magically fixed, giving up few sacks. Reason being we had competency at the QB position. With McNair broke down and an incompetent Boller the defense doesn't respect the caliber of QB it's facing and can dictate what it wants to do to the offense instead of the offense attacking the defense.


One plus, yesterday Grubbs and McClain looked GREAT...especially Grubbs...

Yes truely something to smile about.

[FHRaven]

People were saying in 2005 how bad the O-line was. Last year the O-line was somehow magically fixed, giving up few sacks. Reason being we had competency at the QB position. With McNair broke down and an incompetent Boller the defense doesn't respect the caliber of QB it's facing and can dictate what it wants to do to the offense instead of the offense attacking the defense.


Maybe the difference from 2005 to 2006 was health and the fact that the line had several different players on it. :rolleyes:

[AZRAVEN]

The OL from the early part of the season played much better than this one. Adam Terry is NOT a good right tackle. But he is a good left tackle.

Chester should be playing center, and Brown should be playing guard.

And we need to set that in place and LEAVE it there. If the Ravens want to salvage anything positive out of this season, they need to sit Ogden and FLynn down and tell them thank you for everything you've done for the Ravens and we love you.........but it's time to pass the torch to the young guys and let them develop. We need to do this for the good of the team.

AMEN! IMO it is time to stop the charade of "salvaging the season" and begin the rebuilding process NOW and for the rest of the season. Shut down the vets, not only on offense but defense as well, and give the young players real game experience. The one thing this season has made abundantly clear to me is we have little experienced depth on this team. We're fine as long as the first string stays on the field but when the injuries start piling up we have inexperienced scrubs as backups. It's time to "evaluate" what we have on this team in game conditions. Obviously the extensive evaluations undertaken by the organization at seasons end every year aren't accomplishing as much as we'd hoped. The hard decisions need to be made as far as the current roster is concerned or we can look forward to a similar result next season.

[RustonRifle]

Billick is coaching for his job.

Look how long he stuck with McNair when it was clear to everyone on the planet he was finished. I doubt he will be making any moves that benefits future seasons unless it benefits the team in the short term.


I agree however Terry should be a LT and Yanda at RT at this point, I'm not sold on Chester starting over Flynn just yet.

[highwater]

The quarterback can make the O-line seem worse than it actually is.

This argument continues to crack me up -- it's the QB's fault that he's getting clobbered before he even has a chance to take a look at what's going on downfield. Even McNair would think that's ridiculous. He should know, because he's been getting his ass kicked on many occasions this season, in his limited time on the field.

[RustonRifle]

This argument continues to crack me up -- it's the QB's fault that he's getting clobbered before he even has a chance to take a look at what's going on downfield. Even McNair would think that's ridiculous. He should know, because he's been getting his ass kicked on many occasions this season, in his limited time on the field.


I guess it's a case of what came first the chicken or the egg.

Defenses were stacking the LOS because McNair had no arm stregnth to beat 'em.

Defenses know that Kyle Boller can't beat a rug . He also can't hit a hot read to save his life , hence the defense can attack the offensive line in any passing situation. Kyle Boller has no pocket presence , awareness or any kind of feel of what's going on around him. Many times he takes hits because he doesn't slide or move away from the pressure. Case in point yesterday on the next to last drive Sypnewski had his man blocked but boller scrambled outside the protection threw offbalance and took a big hit for doing so. If he stayed inside Sypnewski he would have had time to set and pass.

This offensive line would be much better in front of a quarterback that is competent.

[Mwjergs]

The line hasn't had any continuity at all this season. Take a look from game to game to the number of different lineups they have trotted out there. Very little cohesion amongst the group.

The line was rough all day. I do agree that at times Boller doesn't help the issue. His pocket presence and awareness are lacking. At times the happy feet are working too early, even before recievers are out of thier breaks.

That being said, the team has many issues to resolve. Even the vaunted defense.

[highwater]

Many times he takes hits because he doesn't slide or move away from the pressure.

You appear to have a pretty selective memory. It's true that Boller is not the best we've seen at avoiding a rush, but on the other hand, he's also done it plenty of times. Of course, that's largely because he's had plenty of practice.

I've heard this argument that McNair didn't get sacked so much last year because he was so good at avoiding it, but what has happened to him this year? He can't avoid the rush much this season, and can't even stay healthy enough to play. Could the OL have something to do with that?

Of course the lack of respectable pass protection has a lot to do with it, but nooooo, to a certain lunatic fringe segment of fans, it's got to be Boller's fault.

To anyone who has watched the games this year, this is a ridiculous point of view.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

One player who has been pretty disapointing to me is Chester.

He just doesn't have the strength and struggles big time with guys that are big and or quick.

Robaire Smith...journeyman Robaire Smith absolutely abused him last week against the Brownies.

I don't know that he is the answer there at C.

[AZRAVEN]

Billick is coaching for his job.

Look how long he stuck with McNair when it was clear to everyone on the planet he was finished. I doubt he will be making any moves that benefits future seasons unless it benefits the team in the short term.


I agree however Terry should be a LT and Yanda at RT at this point, I'm not sold on Chester starting over Flynn just yet.

I don't necessarily agree that Billick is coaching for his job. He certainly doesn't seem the least bit concerned about his job. Besides do you seriously believe that if this team starts out next season the way they have played this season Billick will be any safer? I don't, he needs to get this ship righted and soon and doing the same crap he's been doing isn't the way to do it. This season is lost for all practical purposes, the only thing to be gained is to use the remaining games to do in depth evaluations of personnel. Not the ancient ones who will soon be gone but the guys we expect to step in and replace the guys that need to go. We need to know exactly what we have to work with. Is anyone currently a backup going to step up and become starter caliber or are they just backups. We already know we have a serious need at CB and DE and QB. What other pieces are missing? I know it's hard for those who have paid a lot of money for PSL's and tickets to have to endure more of what they've seen so far this year but reality is that this team has some serious deficiencies and if we don't want a prolonged time at the bottom of the AFCN we may as well bite the bullet now and hopefully look to better things next season. We have lost every division game we've played this year, we've got to take action.

[jonboy79]

I think that maybe, just maybe we might have some sort of idea of how they may perform next year, if we actually let them line up where we have them planned to, and they actually play a couple of games like that. It was nice to see Yanda back in at RT. JO was easily the weakest link on the line yesterday, and Flynn was close behind. Brown and Grubbs looked good. IT's BEYOND time to see the line they hope to trot out week 1 in '08.
I understand Chester hasn't looked great yet, but maybe 5 games in a row, sandwhiched between Browna dn Grubbs couldn't do anything but improve his play. If he doesn't improve, a good vet could be brought in for the position in '08.

[Kevlar]

I still don't understand the reasoning of letting Pashos, Mule, and Vincent walk and bringing in a bunch of scrub rookies as starters. If the Ravens needed cap space they should have cut some dead weight, but you don't let more than half of your starting O-Line walk in free agency and expect a bunch of rookies to carry the load. Whoever came up with that idea should be given a one way ticket out of town. Ozzie, Billick, Forrester, whoever said "hey I think we should ditch these guys that took us to 13-3 and get a bunch of green rookies", well that guy needs to be sent packing asap.

[Greg]

I still don't understand the reasoning of letting Pashos, Mule, and Vincent walk and bringing in a bunch of scrub rookies as starters.
I love Mulitalo but he is a mauler with little finesse and that means you can't screen and pull him. Vincent was a stiff. Pashos was overrated. Yanda may be as good already.

And these aren't rookie scrubs. These are high draft picks for the most part and they played well when together at the end of last year. They need to play and get seasoned. They also may need a new OL coach.

[highwater]

I still don't understand the reasoning of letting Pashos, Mule, and Vincent walk and bringing in a bunch of scrub rookies as starters.

Are any of the guys you just mentioned playing anywhere in the league?

I think Mule is retired, and it's possible that Pashos and Vincent are backups some place, but these are not starters. And the guys that have taken their place are not "scrub rookies." Not yet, anyway.

[Kevlar]

Are any of the guys you just mentioned playing anywhere in the league?

I think Mule is retired, and it's possible that Pashos and Vincent are backups some place, but these are not starters. And the guys that have taken their place are not "scrub rookies." Not yet, anyway.

Mule is starting for the playoff bound Detroit Lions, and Pashos is starting for the powerhouse down in Jax.

Vincent is in Zona but I am not sure if he has a starting job there.

[Bez513]

Pashos is a starter for Jacksonville. Regardless these kids are not "scrub rookies". They are green, draft picks with good potential. Give them time to gel and have a good coach.

[purplepoe]

Are any of the guys you just mentioned playing anywhere in the league?

I think Mule is retired, and it's possible that Pashos and Vincent are backups some place, but these are not starters. And the guys that have taken their place are not "scrub rookies." Not yet, anyway.

You might wanna check that HW.

Pashos signed a huge deal is the starting RT for the Jags.

Mulitalo is starting at guard for the Lions.

Im not sure about Vincent's whereabouts.

PP

[highwater]

Mule is starting for the playoff bound Detroit Lions, and Pashos is starting for the powerhouse down in Jax.

Vincent is in Zona but I am not sure if he has a starting job there.

My bad -- I knew that Mule had signed with Detroit but I thought they had cut him. And of course Pashos had signed a big deal with Jax, I don't know how I forgot about that. :bag:

I confess I don't know what happened to Vincent, but I don't really care, because he's not any better than the rookies we have on the OL now.

[FHRaven]

IMO Pashos was the only one of those 3 worth resigning. But I don't think I would have matched that huge contract if I was GM either.

I think the biggest problem with developing the line this year has been a lack of continuity. I don't question JO's heart or interest in playing but I think the line would have been better by now if was IR'ed early in the season. Then you could have Terry, Brown, Flynn/Chester, Grubbs and Yanda playing as group for a while now.

Of course, each of those guys missed games along the way so it's a moot point. :(

[UKRavenStockers]

I still don't understand the reasoning of letting Pashos, Mule, and Vincent walk and bringing in a bunch of scrub rookies as starters.

Letting Mule walk and starting Jason Brown was smart, Brown is a very good guard and much better all round than Mulitalo is right now.

Pashos, well that's one I wouldn't have let walk, he came round big time last year and was one of the very best RTs in the league last year. However you can't keep everyone and clearly the FO feel that Yanda or Gaither can replace him amply over the course of their contract, though it is tough to endure that step down this year.

As for Vincent, Vincent was terrible. I analyse games for a friend's website but he doesn't let me do Ravens games (understandably, would affect the credibility/impartiality of the analysis) but from what he's seen he tells me Grubbs has been poor (analysed a couple of his early season starts), again it's a tough initial step down to take but he should be a big upgrade on Vincent in fairly short order.

With these kids on the line it's a step you have to take sooner or later, I don't question any of the moves in isolation, Mulitalo we had to move on soon and his injury aided the switch to Brown, and it's one that I think will work well for us. Vincent is one that will work out in short order if it hasn't already been on a par already. Pashos is the one you can question as you can't be too careful with protecting your QB against the best athletes off the edge.

The thing you can question is the misfortune/bad management (which it could be construed as) in these changes happening at once. Ideally you'd blood them individually so that the kids got experience settling in next to veterans helping them out in real situations rather than having a collection of three, four (sometimes five) kids on the line all having to learn on the job with a second year starter (Brown, only just about at 16 starts now I think) as the most veteran presence to look to on the offensive line. It's clearly hurting us in the short term, but hopefully we'll start to see some chemistry starting to form and them working out playing as a unit. I just wish we had a better offensive line coach (still not at all sold on Foerster or Forrester, whatever his name is) to aid this process.