Troy Smith

[ExiledRaven]

Debut Footage! (http://www.flurl.com/item/Troy_Smith_NFL_Rookie_Debut_u_294318)

I'll admit I always liked Troy Smith. I'll also admit at first I wanted to draft him first day, then realized the reasons for concern, but was thrilled with his selection.

The guy just has "it" in terms of whatever it takes to play QB. Outside the bad game at the national championship, the guy knows how to make plays. Pocket breaks down? So what, even in college he made plays outside the pocket. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Udne9JTds5A)

At any rate, I was thrilled to see the progress Smith made from the preseason until this playing time.

Personally, I'd love to see him start against Miami. What does the team have to lose? If Smith is lightning in a bottle, see what he does the rest of the year. If he plays well, then suddenly the QB problem is solved. I figure there is nothing to lose. As far as confidence, Smith is resilient, I wouldn't worry about him being "shaken" like Kyle Boller. Smith plays well when things break down. Let him play! :hammer:

[festivus]

Thanks for posting that ER, I was fast asleep for that part of the game. :thumbup:

Go ahead, play him the rest of the way. Why the heck not. Or don't. ;)

[4G63]

Exiled, I believe you and I are the only ones that wanted to see what Smith could do earlier in the year. We were chastised for it, why I do not know. I agree, he should see at least 'a half' of playing time for the remaining games....

[xmradiodave]

Exiled, I believe you and I are the only ones that wanted to see what Smith could do earlier in the year. We were chastised for it, why I do not know. I agree, he should see at least 'a half' of playing time for the remaining games....

While I never chastised anyone, I thought he was not ready for the speed of the NFL. I am beginning to round the corner on that thought process.

[4G63]

While I never chastised anyone, I thought he was not ready for the speed of the NFL. I am beginning to round the corner on that thought process.

I wasn't thinking of you when I said that, but many people used that thought process when thinking of him as a NFL QB. Tony Romo got his shot early in the year for the Cowboys last year and look whats happened. Am I saying Troy Smith is as good as Tony Romo? No. But we'll never know how he'll do in game situations unless he's thrown to the wolves! Give the kid a shot and see what happens.....WHATS IT GOING TO HURT AT THIS POINT? Its not like we expect much of him anyway and we don't have much money tied up either.....

[ExiledRaven]

I wasn't thinking of you when I said that, but many people used that thought process when thinking of him as a NFL QB. Tony Romo got his shot early in the year for the Cowboys last year and look whats happened. Am I saying Troy Smith is as good as Tony Romo? No. But we'll never know how he'll do in game situations unless he's thrown to the wolves! Give the kid a shot and see what happens.....WHATS IT GOING TO HURT AT THIS POINT? Its not like we expect much of him anyway and we don't have much money tied up either.....

Exactly, and if Smith works out....guess what! No need to take a 1st round QB and the team can grab a CB, DE, explosive WR first day.

If Smith is only mediocre, then sure, he can be a backup and Boller can get cut if there isn't a signing bonus present (especially if Mac9 comes back)

[festivus]

Ok what the hell. Let's start the chant.

"WE WANT SMITH!!! WE WANT SMITH!!! WE WANT SMITH!!!"

We can have a fan club.

I don't know what purpose it would serve, but at this point, why the hell not.

I will propose the name Supporting the Playing Of Troy Smith, or SPOTS.

:toast:

[xmradiodave]

Why not indeed!

[festivus]

Love it! I expect ER will want in for sure. First five to sign up get their first ten posts free.

Dave first round's on me. :beer:

[xmradiodave]

Lets see if this puppy has some wheels. Maybe you will start a signature revolution.

[ExiledRaven]

Oh heck why not. It sure beats having to see all my Steeler and Browns friends today....

Festivus and Dave, I owe you both a round.

[evade6317]

I think we should give Boller another season.

[darb72]

Smith played well, but with a cavet. He was going against fourth string defensive players.

Play him in spots. Heck, let him start. This season is going no where anyway.

[RavenTD]

I am in the start Smith crowd.

We know what we have with Boller? An inconsistent QB who can only read half the field thanks to Tedford's coaching.

The season is lost.Well lost.

Playing Smith against the Dolphins will be like starting against a preseason squad anyway.You will not get an easier entry into the NFL than this.

If the kid bombs,then the Ravens have more incentive to get a QB in the 1st.

[ExiledRaven]

RavenTD, you can be #4 ;)

[RavenTD]

RavenTD, you can be #4 ;)

Hell yeah.

[Dade]

We can have a fan club.

I don't know what purpose it would serve, but at this point, why the hell not.

I will propose the name Supporting the Playing Of Troy Smith, or SPOTS.

:toast:


TELL ME WHERE TO SIGN UP!!

[RustonRifle]

I don't think I can handle another 60 minutes of BollerBall® . I'm all for starting Troy Smith. TS looks much more poised than the frenetic boller.

[TTRaven]

I don't think I can handle another 60 minutes of BollerBall® . I'm all for starting Troy Smith. TS looks much more poised than the frenetic boller.

I said the same thing last night. Smith looked comfortable in the pocket and moved well when under pressure. Granted it was against 3rd string players. Still though it was finally nice to see a QB that doesn't shit his pants when protection breaks down.

I had hopes for Boller, but it's obvious that he has no business being a starter in the NFL. He's never going to be able to put it all together. Here we are in his 5th season and he's still making rookie mistakes. He's a great guy and has the right attitude, but that doesn't make him an NFL QB. It's time to go in another direction.

[xmradiodave]

Can someone start a SPOTS thread where people can pick their card number? And we can keep a running list of who has joined? I have a feeling the signatures are gonna really get rolling after next week.

[festivus]

Done.

[crazyraven]

BS on card numbers. Ive been saying to start Troy long before its been fashionable. All I got from y'all is that he is too short and not ready. But since you mother fuckers started a club -- I'm in.

[xmradiodave]

BS on card numbers. Ive been saying to start Troy long before its been fashionable. All I got from y'all is that he is too short and not ready. But since you mother fuckers started a club -- I'm in.

Will if someone (crazyraven) had taken the initiative to start the SPOTS membership, he could have been the charter member. sounds like sour grapes to me. :happy:

[crazyraven]

Nope, no sour grapes here. I think we'll have more members after the miami game. Its a road game and we all know the story with Boller and road games

[xmradiodave]

Nope, no sour grapes here. I think we'll have more members after the miami game. Its a road game and we all know the story with Boller and road games

I know boss. I was just fuckin' around. I absolutely agree with the Miami game though. When the two teams talk about this being their superbowl, that is just sad. Two shitty teams battling out for a win and it is sold to the fans as being the most important of games? fuck that. That is a damn insult to both Ravens fans and Dolphin fans.

[festivus]

BS on card numbers. Ive been saying to start Troy long before its been fashionable. All I got from y'all is that he is too short and not ready. But since you mother fuckers started a club -- I'm in.

All are welcome, even the Crazy ones. :toast:

[flraven]

I'll join the party. I did watch Troy play on Sunday night and even though it was against backups and such, he didn't do too bad. Lets see what he can do for us!

[xmradiodave]

Dude scored the coveted 007 card number. DRATS!

[flraven]

Dude scored the coveted 007 card number. DRATS!

:ban: :ban: :ban: :ban: :ban:

[purplepoe]

This forum is eerily quiet these days isn't it?

PP

[jonboy79]

Yeah What QB debate is there? McNair is the worst, Kyle is inconsistent and TS played well in four snaps of action against 3rd stringers. The QB this team is seeking is likely studying for finals right now. That discussion gets a bit heated, but it's a bit early to talk abotu the draft anyways. Might as well wait at least until after both seasons are done.

[xmradiodave]

This forum is eerily quiet these days isn't it?

PP

Not too much to say. Everyone knows where this team stands as far as QB's go. McNair stinks, everyone calmmored for Boller, he did well, and then blew it a week later, and that leaves option 3. Are we gonna see Troy get a start? Unlikely. So no controversey per se, just wishful thinking at this point.

[Dade]

Pitty Troy won't start against the Phins. Billick is trying to ensure a win on Sunday. He knows if he doesn't win that game then he's out. So going with the "gives us the best chance to win" he's starting Boller. Instead of moving forward to next year and evaluating what we have at QB he's trying to protect his job.

[Ravenbird]

I disagree with all of you. The Boller hatred is incomprehensible, really. The best way to properly judge a qb is relative to the other person who played qb that year with that team.Almost everyone (media and fans) have come to the conclusion that Boller won't be even an average starting qb after last game. The fact that Steve McNair looked so bad when he played this year in a non factor? Did he suddenly go from being the "great" Steve to being the "horrible" Steve in one game? The answer is that he was not so great last year and was not so bad this year, he declined a little bit (what you wound expect from one year to the next with a 33 year old) but he was playing with a much worse line, and the last 2 games did not have Todd Heap and Demetrius Williams. So comes along Boller and looks better that McNair (much better if we want to be honest), but is deemed inconsistent to the extent that he is toast. So I ask do we throw Troy Smith in the same fire? I have no opinion at all on him, but I do know that he would have to be great to look ok and its not worth it. Its still worth looking at Boller hoping there will we better protection, and seeing if its ok going into next year with him.

[RavenTD]

The Boller hatred is incomprehensible

Why when some people speak the truth,should it be deemed hatred?

This Troy movement is just for us to see what #10 has got to give this team.
He has been learning the playbook all season.He has a winless team up next.
A great way of breaking the kid in early.

What new things are you going to learn about Boller playing the Dolphins a winless team?

We don't hate Kyle Boller,we just know what we have in Kyle Boller.And with three games remaining what more is there to see?

[festivus]

So I ask do we throw Troy Smith in the same fire? I have no opinion at all on him, but I do know that he would have to be great to look ok and its not worth it. Its still worth looking at Boller hoping there will we better protection, and seeing if its ok going into next year with him.

Well, you make some good points. The short answer to your question is, yes, we throw him in the fire. For the slightly-less-short answer, please see the quote in my sig, below. After five years even (most of) the most enthusiastic supporters of Boller would probably agree with me Boller is not the Quarterback of the Future.

In the real world, the players care about wins, and so does Billick, even in a lost season. So you will get your wish, that Boller will start. But again, I don't think he's the quarterback of the future, he is but a capable backup. And I would guess even the FO sees that, though obviously nobody from the FO/coaching staff would say so.

Why do I want to see Troy Smith play? Because unlike the players, coaches and front office people, I just want to see him play. As priority #1, over beating the Dolphins. I love my Ravens and will watch them even if they are forced to field, as signal-caller, PeeWee Herman or Steve from Blue's Clues at QB (Actually, I'd pay extra). So I will watch Boller if he's out there. But I would *love* to see Option #3, especially after his four down masterpiece Monday night.

Also, and again welcome to the board, please try to use paragraph breaks where appropriate. Folks around here can get testy if you repeatedly hit them with a wall of text.

[4G63]

Why when some people speak the truth,should it be deemed hatred?

This Troy movement is just for us to see what #10 has got to give this team.
He has been learning the playbook all season.He has a winless team up next.
A great way of breaking the kid in early.

What new things are you going to learn about Boller playing the Dolphins a winless team?

We don't hate Kyle Boller,we just know what we have in Kyle Boller.And with three games remaining what more is there to see?

Couldn't have said it any better......

[ExiledRaven]

Billick is the coach, he gets the call here. If Boller stinks it up big time in the first half, Smith needs to come in and after his performance I think it's worth taking a look.

He's a great leader.

[festivus]

Ya, agreed. If the game is out of whack - either way - count on Smith coming in.

[xmradiodave]

I disagree with all of you. The Boller hatred is incomprehensible, really. The best way to properly judge a qb is relative to the other person who played qb that year with that team.Almost everyone (media and fans) have come to the conclusion that Boller won't be even an average starting qb after last game. The fact that Steve McNair looked so bad when he played this year in a non factor? Did he suddenly go from being the "great" Steve to being the "horrible" Steve in one game? The answer is that he was not so great last year and was not so bad this year, he declined a little bit (what you wound expect from one year to the next with a 33 year old) but he was playing with a much worse line, and the last 2 games did not have Todd Heap and Demetrius Williams. So comes along Boller and looks better that McNair (much better if we want to be honest), but is deemed inconsistent to the extent that he is toast. So I ask do we throw Troy Smith in the same fire? I have no opinion at all on him, but I do know that he would have to be great to look ok and its not worth it. Its still worth looking at Boller hoping there will we better protection, and seeing if its ok going into next year with him.

Welcome to the boards Mr. Boller! :banana:

For the record, if you read any of my posts, i never say I hate Boller. Quite the opposite actually.

[Ravenbird]

Welcome to the boards Mr. Boller! :banana:

For the record, if you read any of my posts, i never say I hate Boller. Quite the opposite actually.

Which would lead to the next question- how can one game make you change your opinion. The point is that most level headed people would agree that the odds are strong that Boller would a better option than Smith for next year. There is a small chance that Smith is the next Tom Brady (or at least a good caliber starting qb), but that is not likely and most likely not so soon in his pro career.

Therefore, it would follow - being that there will probably not be a star qb in the free agent market, and the team does not have that much cap room, and it is not wise to start a rookie qb ever - that Kyle Boller still is the best option going into next season. Therefore it would be wise to give him the next three games and see if we can get a better picture (and if he does play badly then you would have to look elsewhere) . I know he has "Had his chances
so many times", "you know what you are going to get with him" but if you take a step back for a second you may realize that he really was not given so much of a chance since he was benched last season.

If he is in fact a good qb, what would we have expected from him while he plays behind a horrific o-line, with 2 of his top 4 receivers out? The fact is that before the end of 2005, he was labeled as bad, not inconsistent. I would argue that he is not unnecessarily the one who is inconsistent, its the whole team - the line specifically.

I also attribute the play calling to his lack of successes at times. John Madden despite his thinking nothing of Boller pointed out that he has no chance because they were running on first and second down, and if they were not successful, he would be stuck in a third and long with no protection. This is exactly what happened in the first half against Cleveland and Buffalo,as well as many of the times that he was deemed bad this year. I felt all along that they need to pass first, have some successful passes, and that will prevent them from loading up on the run and open up the game. That is what happened in the second half in Cleveland and the NE game(when he completed that long pass, from then and on the run was much more successfully because they had to worry about the pass as well) .

I know I am on an island when it comes to this, but I think that it has alot to do with pre-conceived notions.

[ExiledRaven]

I don't think the real idea is to totally yank Boller...it's about getting Smith some playing time to see what is there.

When it's all said and done, it's Billick's call this year at the very least (maybe more years if he stays around).

Smith showed something in "garbage time" against Indy. Many of us would like to see him get a chance to show what he can do during this season. The improvement from pre-season to the Colts game impressed me.

At minimum, if Boller is playing like he did last week after the first half or just the whole game in general, it would be nice to see what Smith can do.

I understand your defenses of Boller and the reasons mentioned. But there are a few things worth taking a peak at....the New England game is the best Boller EVER did at improvisation on the run. Smith pops in against Indy, the pocket breaks down and he's already doing the same as, or better than, Boller in those break down situations.

Free Agent QB: Yes, there is nothing there at this point and I also agree that signing McNabb is a mistake waiting to happen, at least for this team.

Anyhow, this isn't Boller hatred or anything to do with that...it's about giving Troy Smith a chance to prove himself, to be able to show why he might be the answer (or not even). As for level heads, I don't think anyone has any idea of what Smith might do in this league. Boller certainly has the edge in experience and familiarity with the offensive scheme, players, and coaches, but time will tell.

Caveat: I CERTAINLY don't want to throw some 1st rounder into the fire at the beginning of next year. Maybe week 12 if there is development, maybe wait until the next season. Some guys play well right off, but I think sitting would be the right move here. Of course I may be wrong, lots of time between now and the draft!

[crazyraven]

Which would lead to the next question- how can one game make you change your opinion. The point is that most level headed people would agree that the odds are strong that Boller would a better option than Smith for next year.

Dude pass that shit over here. I'm looking to get zooted too. =)
:nerd: :187734:

I disagree with all of you. The Boller hatred is incomprehensible, really.
Nobody is hating on Boller, we just love troy and want him to win some games for us...thats all. :thumbup:

Keep in mind some poor chap is sitting on a roof hoping that the ravens win a game so that he can go home.

[Ravenbird]

Dude pass that shit over here. I'm looking to get zooted too. =)
:nerd: :187734:
Are you telling me that you would bet on smith preforming better then boller right now? If yes then tell me what you are drinking? I am not saying that it is not possible, just that it is less than likely and at this point not worth trying .

[ExiledRaven]

Are you telling me that you would bet on smith preforming better then boller right now? If yes then tell me what you are drinking? I am not saying that it is not possible, just that it is less than likely and at this point not worth trying .

You're totally missing the entire point. No one is going on and on about how "Troy Smith must be the Ravens QB now and Boller must die in a horrible car accident induced by mediocre offensive line play."

Personally, I am advocating that Smith get meaningful playing time this season. The Dolphins game seems like an ideal time to do so! My first post I think is a bit overreacting (starting...), but then again that happened to be the day after the loss to the Colts. Forgive me.

Let Smith get his feet wet this season in live action that is not "garbage time." That is the one thing all SPOTS bandwagoners wish to see!

Oh, if Boller plays as poorly the first half of the Miami game as he did against the Colts...can it really be THAT outrageous to let Smith play the second half?

[crazyraven]

stop crapping in our pudding.

Boller is not getting the job done and I think we are all ready to see something new at QB. He doesnt know the system. if he did we wouldnt have a 37-7 scoreboard at halftime.

some peoples tollerance for boller has subsided. its Nothing personal.

[ExiledRaven]

stop crapping in our pudding.

That's probably what I should have said. Thanks :thumbup:

[festivus]

Are you telling me that you would bet on smith preforming better then boller right now? If yes then tell me what you are drinking? I am not saying that it is not possible, just that it is less than likely and at this point not worth trying .

Could perform better. Could perform worse. You have not answered the question. . . In a lost season. . .


WHY THE HELL NOT?

[xmradiodave]

Bottom line: Sure Boller has turned in a few good showings. But he is inconsistent. I like Boller and want him to succeed but how many chances does the guy get? If he is the starter so be it. I will still root for the guy and hope he performs well, but at this point, especially after the performance on Sunday, it is time to see what the rookie has. You say "after one bad performance" I turned on him. Boller has had WAAAAAAY more than one bad performance. He has had more average to poor showings than above competent to stellar performances.

Boller is not the answer long term for this team and to continue to think so is just plain silly. This season is a complete bust. Let us see Troy. That is all we are asking for.

[Ravenbird]

You're totally missing the entire point. No one is going on and on about how "Troy Smith must be the Ravens QB now and Boller must die in a horrible car accident induced by mediocre offensive line play."

Personally, I am advocating that Smith get meaningful playing time this season. The Dolphins game seems like an ideal time to do so! My first post I think is a bit overreacting (starting...), but then again that happened to be the day after the loss to the Colts. Forgive me.

Let Smith get his feet wet this season in live action that is not "garbage time." That is the one thing all SPOTS bandwagoners wish to see!

Oh, if Boller plays as poorly the first half of the Miami game as he did against the Colts...can it really be THAT outrageous to let Smith play the second half?

Agreed, I would wait for a very bad game in miami and then think about it. Still you dont want to go into next season with smith as your starter regardless of what he does whereas Boller can redeem himself in the next three games.(getting Heap back would help, is he going to be back this season?)
BTW - Running every time you step back to pass is not necessarily a good thing. Its best to try to pass, and run if nothing is there and you have room to go.

[Ravenbird]

Could perform better. Could perform worse. You have not answered the question. . . In a lost season. . .


WHY THE HELL NOT?

See above post. Who else are you starting next season? My main point is that believe it or not Boller is still the best option for this team next season. Tell me who you realistically think will be a better option? Don't let the excitement from the last game get the better of you!

[Ravenbird]

Question-
When was the last time Boller played poorly with decent protection?
When was the last time any qb played consistently well behind a poor line without 2 of his top 4 receivers?
All I am saying is that the notion that "we know what we have in bolller" is flawed.

[flraven]

please try to use paragraph breaks where appropriate. Folks around here can get testy if you repeatedly hit them with a wall of text.

Festivus, I saw that and immediately thought of you posting the ref icon and throwing the penalty flag. :)

[flraven]

Ravenbird,
All people are saying is that in a lost season, when we have a QB on the bench who showed a glimmer of hope in the last game, why not trot him out and see what he can do? How about the Ravens bringing him out in the second half unless Boller is having a career game?

Then, if Troy shows some promise, they give him extended time in the last two games to see if he perhaps could be "the guy". I would LOVE to see Troy beat up on the Steelers. Or Boller. Or anybody, for that matter.

[TTRaven]

Question-
When was the last time Boller played poorly with decent protection?
When was the last time any qb played consistently well behind a poor line without 2 of his top 4 receivers?
All I am saying is that the notion that "we know what we have in bolller" is flawed.

How is it flawed? The guy has been here for 5 years! If we don't know what we have in him now we never will. Yes Kyle gets pressure and deals with injuries, but every QB does. The difference between a good QB and bad QB is how they deal with those situations.

[purplepoe]

Which would lead to the next question- how can one game make you change your opinion.

LOL.

Believe me, it's not one game that's made anyone change their opinion.

Why do you act like we've only seen Boller for a few games?

PP

[Dade]

It's just that this is a great time for Smith to get plently of game experince without the pressure to "win" games. Look we all want the Ravens to win every game, but at the end of the day, were not making the playoffs our season is over. Giving Smith a good amount of playing time might let us know whether or not we need to draft a QB, or sign a FA.

[StingerNLG]

How is it flawed? The guy has been here for 5 years! If we don't know what we have in him now we never will. Yes Kyle gets pressure and deals with injuries, but every QB does. The difference between a good QB and bad QB is how they deal with those situations.

No offense TT, but name me a playoff QB right now that has had to deal with anything REMOTELY like McNair and Boller have had to deal with this year, or any of our last 10 QB's.

[Baltoman07]

Troy Smith doesn't know the playbook. Every pass play is the same. He looks right, he looks left, then runs out the pocket to play street ball. He needs to make some plays that shows he is reading a defense. If he can do that, he might have a future.

[xmradiodave]

Right. So LET HIM PLAY!

:D

[TTRaven]

No offense TT, but name me a playoff QB right now that has had to deal with anything REMOTELY like McNair and Boller have had to deal with this year, or any of our last 10 QB's.

Matt Hasselbeck

Has had no running game, played the majority of his season without his 2 main threats(Alexander, Branch) and has been sacked the 8th most times in the NFL. He still seems to be able to make plays and keep his team in the playoff hunt.

Look I know sometimes certain areas of a team struggle. Let's not kid ourselves and act like Boller/Mcnair are the only ones that have to deal with this. Plenty of QB's are able to make plays when protection breaks down, or when one of their weapons are out for whatever reason. Everything is not going to be perfect. If a QB can't succeed unless everything around him is perfect, that probably means that the QB isn't any good.

[Ravenbird]

Matt Hasselbeck

Has had no running game, played the majority of his season without his 2 main threats(Alexander, Branch) and has been sacked the 8th most times in the NFL. He still seems to be able to make plays and keep his team in the playoff hunt.

Look I know sometimes certain areas of a team struggle. Let's not kid ourselves and act like Boller/Mcnair are the only ones that have to deal with this. Plenty of QB's are able to make plays when protection breaks down, or when one of their weapons are out for whatever reason. Everything is not going to be perfect. If a QB can't succeed unless everything around him is perfect, that probably means that the QB isn't any good.

it's more a question of being able to play well consistently when being pressured consistently and the defenses don't have to account for a guy like Heap( or Williams to a lesser extent). If Boller had looked bad in every game then there would be no excuses. But he has looked good, so good that most non haters said that he was not the same as in the past, so what changed against indy?

I was very disappointed with that game but after thinking about it I realized that all of his int's were after we were down by 14 points. If he wasn't getting time, or receivers were not getting open, he had to make something happen or there would be no chance at all to win. So what if he forced the issue, big deal. The worst thing that happened did, but what if they would be caught, maybe there is a chance of a great comeback. If he holds on to the ball or throws it away time after time there was no chance of a win, so what is the big deal for forcing it. Don't get me wrong that was no good game by any stretch of the imagination, it's just not as bad as it may seem.

[TTRaven]

it's more a question of being able to play well consistently when being pressured consistently and the defenses don't have to account for a guy like Heap( or Williams to a lesser extent). If Boller had looked bad in every game then there would be no excuses. But he has looked good, so good that most non haters said that he was not the same as in the past, so what changed against indy?

So you're saying that because Boller has looked good a few games we should look past his many bad games? What changed against Indy is the story of kyle Boller's career. He'll look good one game only to follow it up by playing absolutely horrible. I'm convinced that he will always be like that. Just an inconsistent, average QB who will look bad more times then he looks good.

[festivus]

Ravenbird, understand you are new here but you are going over thrice-plowed ground.

Don't put words in my mouth, or twist what I said. Most of the regulars here, myself included, have laid out their opinions in one way or another about the QB position over the last *loooong* time.

No offense, I really don't feel like another round of posts about the worthiness of Kyle Boller, when there's nothing new to add. If you *really* want to know how I feel, just read a couple of the threads in this subforum. You'll find me there.

[RustonRifle]

This has got to be the only city in America where crummy quarterback play is accepted by even 1% of the fans.


We could pull someone off the waiver wire that would give us what Kyle Boller can. Boller is nothing special. This league is about winning championships. If you have a guy suiting up that can't get the job done you look for someone who can.


Kyle Boller will never be at the helm of a playoff team much less a championship squad.

[purplepoe]

it's more a question of being able to play well consistently when being pressured consistently and the defenses don't have to account for a guy like Heap( or Williams to a lesser extent). If Boller had looked bad in every game then there would be no excuses. But he has looked good, so good that most non haters said that he was not the same as in the past, so what changed against indy?

I was very disappointed with that game but after thinking about it I realized that all of his int's were after we were down by 14 points. If he wasn't getting time, or receivers were not getting open, he had to make something happen or there would be no chance at all to win. So what if he forced the issue, big deal. The worst thing that happened did, but what if they would be caught, maybe there is a chance of a great comeback. If he holds on to the ball or throws it away time after time there was no chance of a win, so what is the big deal for forcing it. Don't get me wrong that was no good game by any stretch of the imagination, it's just not as bad as it may seem.

First of all, Boller's first INT on Sunday night had nothing to do with score or a WR getting open.

He made a rookie mistake by completely staring down the WR (which is still does much of the time) and letting the LB read him like a book.

It was a freakin 6 yd pass, not some bomb down the field.

The excuse making is over.

It's been 5 years.

It's not as bad as it seemed?

O, let me be clear.

It was absolutely as bad as it seemed.

Look, if you wanna buy into the excuse making and hold onto the dream of Boller being a #1 QB in this league, that's your right.

But most of us have seen enough.

Every excuse has been made.

And believe me, the Indy game certainly didn't make or break anyone's opinion on Boller.

Every QB looks good sometimes. What is with that argument? Just because a QB looks good once in awhile doesn't mean he can be the guy.

PP

[StingerNLG]

Matt Hasselbeck

Has had no running game, played the majority of his season without his 2 main threats(Alexander, Branch) and has been sacked the 8th most times in the NFL. He still seems to be able to make plays and keep his team in the playoff hunt.

With all due respect, here are Seattle's wins and their opponent's current records:

SF x 2 (3-10)
St. Louis x 2 (3-10)
Cincinatti (5-8)
Chicago (5-8)
TB (8-5)
Philadelphia (5-8)
Arizona (6-7)


We've beaten every common opponent on that list except Cincy. We didn't play TB, Philly, or Chicago.

The Seahawks lost to Pittsburgh, New Orleans, Cleveland, and Arizona the first time around.

Matt Hassleback has at least HAD Alexander and Branch on the field 9 out of 13 games. Heap has been out about that long, and D-Will is closing in on that number fast. Not to mention Hasslebeck has had his OL intact, as in EVERY one of his starting OL has been on the field for 13 games, and his TE Pollard for 11 games.

I realize that we have sucked much worse than Seattle. But you can't compare McNair/Boller's situation to Hasslebeck's.



Look I know sometimes certain areas of a team struggle. Let's not kid ourselves and act like Boller/Mcnair are the only ones that have to deal with this. Plenty of QB's are able to make plays when protection breaks down, or when one of their weapons are out for whatever reason. Everything is not going to be perfect. If a QB can't succeed unless everything around him is perfect, that probably means that the QB isn't any good.


I look at everytime Manning's OL can't protect him, and they lose and he goes nuts and throws them under the bus and I remember that everytime I hear one of you say something like that.

Then I remember how many games Houston won with David Carr getting HIS ass kicked on the field game in and game out. Oh yeah, and Matt Schaub, the savior of the Texans? OL got him blown up too and he's out. And where are the Texans right now? 6-7 and not heading to the playoffs again.

And oh yeah, who dat gonna beat dem Bengals? Seemingly everyone else but us. Isn't a QB supposed to make the entire team around them better? Palmer's thrown 17 interceptions this year, and his team is 5-8. In fact, Palmer's really only led that team to one playoff. Hell, Kyle Boller and Anthony Wright did that in 2003. Other than that the Carson Palmer led Bengals struggle to make it to 8-8 every year.


Make no mistake. My confidence in Boller's ability has spiraled downward. And for me, while Brian Billick's offense has ruined him and every other QB to enter Baltimore, the lines between whether it's the system or the QB itself has begun to touch here and there. To a point that I don't know if Boller can be saved by changing the offensive system. And unfortunately I don't think Troy Smith will last that long in this system either. Sorry, I just have watched the Ravens for too long.

We can absolutely sit here and pound on Boller for the mistakes he should NOT be making at this point in his career. But let's stop pretending that the team around our Quarterbacks, including Boller, McNair, Redman, and on down, has been anything CLOSE to what the good teams in this league have.

Remind me at what point in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, or 2007 when the Ravens had a Chad Johnson or Braylon Edwards, Randy Moss or Terrell Owens, Marvin Harrison or even a Larry Fitzgerald.

EDIT: First person to mention Kevin Johnson gets his SPOTS poster ripped down and torn in half!! :D

[copenhaggard]

Our QBs have never been asked to shoulder the load of the team until this year.

All our offense had to do was not suck, and be average. It hasn't, due to a number of factors. There was never a ton of pressure on our offense. Boller, Billick, McNair and most of them still couldn't handle it though.

How come Pitt can score points, when Ward is their best receiver? He isn't a burner, just a great player. You don't need a franchise WR to be a respectable, pretty good offense.

Our offense isn't even close to respectable. It wouldn't matter if we had a legit #1 WR. QbA wouldn't be able to throw the ball to a #1 receiver, and QBb would overthrow, underthrow, or stare down the receiver. Not to mention if we had a #1 receiver, Billick might decide to throw the ball 60 times a game.

Get a great shot caller. Sometimes a good QB can help out receivers. And vica-versa. But the main thing is a great receiver doesn't throw the ball to himself. Our OLINE is developing, and in good shape. We have younger receivers.

Enough of the joke QBs here. Get a franchise QB. Enough of the joke offense, and coach genius.

[StingerNLG]

How come Pitt can score points, when Ward is their best receiver? He isn't a burner, just a great player. You don't need a franchise WR to be a respectable, pretty good offense.

Hines Ward the 4 time pro-bowler? The guy who caught 112 passes with Tommy Maddox? He makes catches that few other WR's in this league CAN make. He bails his QB's out a LOT.



Our offense isn't even close to respectable. It wouldn't matter if we had a legit #1 WR. QbA wouldn't be able to throw the ball to a #1 receiver, and QBb would overthrow, underthrow, or stare down the receiver. Not to mention if we had a #1 receiver, Billick might decide to throw the ball 60 times a game.

I guess when you really never have a legit #1 WR you stop understanding how important it is to have one. You're telling me having a receiver that could get open more, and not force the QB to throw into coverages all the time and get downfield more than twice a game opening up the other 2 receivers more often, that this would make no difference?

Wow is about all I can say to that.



Get a great shot caller. Sometimes a good QB can help out receivers. And vica-versa. But the main thing is a great receiver doesn't throw the ball to himself. Our OLINE is developing, and in good shape. We have younger receivers.

And none of them as good as ANY of the ones I listed.

I challenge you again, compare anyone we've had since 2002 to any receiver on the upper tier teams. You can't. You just can't.

[xmradiodave]

We have talent on the WR corps. It appears that many of the plays called do not allow them to be utilized to their fullest potential. OR... the QB is not able to see the open receiver because he gets tunnel vision.

[crazyraven]

This is a great thread. I still cant believe hardcore huggers are still siding with Boller. anyway, I'm really enjoying this.
http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

[festivus]

EDIT: First person to mention Kevin Johnson gets his SPOTS poster ripped down and torn in half!! :D
:)

Stinger it's not about the OL and it's not about the wide receivers. It's not about the play calling, and certainly not about Trent Dilfer, Chris Redman, or clock management. It's not even about Kyle Boller. It's not about any of that, at least for me.

It's about wanting to watch Troy Smith under center, at the tail end of this lost season. That's it.

:hug:

[xmradiodave]

This is a great thread. I still cant believe hardcore huggers are still siding with Boller. anyway, I'm really enjoying this.
http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

I retired my Boller Hugger status for right now. I want to see something different.

[crazyraven]

I retired my Boller Hugger status for right now. I want to see something different.

Thats a step in the right direction. We all want to see what TS has.

Boller is what he is. He's had his chances, now lets see someone else.

XM hook me up with a card, my number is OG1

[StingerNLG]

:)

Stinger it's not about the OL and it's not about the wide receivers. It's not about the play calling, and certainly not about Trent Dilfer, Chris Redman, or clock management. It's not even about Kyle Boller. It's not about any of that, at least for me.

It's about wanting to watch Troy Smith under center, at the tail end of this lost season. That's it.

:hug:


And I don't begrudge anyone that point. But TT make a statement I had to challenge, because really we are potentially putting Troy Smith in the same "can't win" position that we've put everyone else in. I also see the side of wanting to play Troy Smith because the season is lost, AND the side that says the Ravens still need to win games first and that means putting your best options on the field.

Personally, my opinion has pretty much nothing to do with Troy Smith's abilities or college career. I'm not going to lie and pretend I watched him at OH. But I know the system he was drafted into. And it ain't good. I just don't know if I want to throw this poor guy in there and hope it doesn't do to him what it's done to everyone else.

That's all.

[xmradiodave]

will send it your way in a few minutes.

[RustonRifle]

This is a great thread. I still cant believe hardcore huggers are still siding with Boller. anyway, I'm really enjoying this.
http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif


I can still believe it.

Once Bollerball™ travels to another NFL city and he has his one decent performance a season that same crowd will be posting how the Ravens should have kept him.:insane:

[crazyraven]

I just don't know if I want to throw this poor guy in there and hope it doesn't do to him what it's done to everyone else.
Maybe you should want him to be thown in to this system, maybe it would prove to you, either way, that that its the system or QB. I still think its the QB. Mcnair still was able to guide the team to a great record last season. However this year he imploded due to injuries.

Derick Anderson is the only player who left here and is doing well at QB, he was on this team for about 4 preseason games.

Giving TS a chance gives the organization something else to go on next season. Maybe he will be the 3rd string, backup, or who knows maybe the starter...but we need to find out. We know what we have in Boller

[RavenTD]

All we are crying out for is a worthy QB to stand up and be able to lead this team.He doesn't have to be a Manning or Brady but that would be nice.I am looking for a QB who has better than average skills.

But the main point for me is consistant play from that QB.No, not consistantly bad.But better than average,I'd settle for that than a turnover machine right now.

I guess the constant poor play of QB over so many years in Baltimore makes Boller look like its the best its ever going to get around here.

[copenhaggard]

I guess when you really never have a legit #1 WR you stop understanding how important it is to have one. You're telling me having a receiver that could get open more, and not force the QB to throw into coverages all the time and get downfield more than twice a game opening up the other 2 receivers more often, that this would make no difference?

Wow is about all I can say to that.



Okay Stinger, you win. We get a #1 receiver. Who throws the ball to him?

The same "who" that doesn't:
-fumble
-throw plenty of picks
-know how to avoid a passrush / create more time
-stare down primary receivers
-not have the arm strength to make it to a deep threat
-not over/under throw the receiver
-etc....


Oh yeah Stinger, we've had a TE who bails our QBs out. We've had a great rushing attack (minus 2006). We've never put pressure on our offense to win games. All the offense had to do was NOT suck, and play even average. Protect leads.


We never needed a #1 WR until now, when our defense is beginning to crumble.

Boller and the offense couldn't even handle the pressure of that.

I mean seriously, you're going to sit here and defend and make excuses for a QB that isn't even good enough to protect leads, play smart, and be efficient? I can't even imagine how he plays when actual pressure is put on him to win games and lead an offense. You want to see that?

(oh yeah, I forgot, you'll use Boller's once-in-a-lifetime versus NE as the proof)...

[xmradiodave]

This team needs to be fixed everywhere. It is not just a Boller issue. While I understand the disdain toward Kyle Boller, the problems are far deeper than the QB position. This team is decimated by injuries and all around incompetent play.

Is Boller a great or even good QB? Well, if you look at individual games against career, sure. He has played some great games. Over all career... meh, not so much. Flashes of greatness look amazing on game highlights but they do not make for consistent winning seasons.

We can point out the porousness of the O-Line. It is a valid point. The QB is under pressure more times than not. Maybe so, but there are QB's across this league that perform well and win games under pressure. No need to name them. they are all in the top 5 QB's. Boller most of the time is unaware of what is going on around him. He suffers from tunnel vision and visually locks onto his target in effect, telegraphing his pass with his eyes. That works fine when playing undisciplined Defenses. Too many players are students of the game and watch tons of game footage. They know the QB and know what he will do before he does. Staring down your receiver and holding the ball until that desired receiver gets separation from a defender allows way to much time for a pick to develop.

Aside from that, Boller throws a lot of beautiful tight spirals right into the numbers of the defender. Why? Poor mechanics. So many years in the league and he still makes rookie mistakes. Sometimes, it appears that he has not developed any further that the day he was drafted. Then there are games like the Pats game.

Who really knows. I do know this, that Kyle Boller is not the long term answer to this teams problems. Neither is he the sole problem. Do I think that if he is allowed enough time in the pocket that he can complete any pass? Sure. Any of us could. It is the fact that when protection falls apart that Boller shows his indecisiveness.

For the time being though, he is the starting QB for this team. I hope he does well. I would like to see the guy end this season on an up.

[StingerNLG]

Okay Stinger, you win. We get a #1 receiver. Who throws the ball to him?

The same "who" that doesn't:
-fumble
-throw plenty of picks
-know how to avoid a passrush / create more time
-stare down primary receivers
-not have the arm strength to make it to a deep threat
-not over/under throw the receiver
-etc....


Oh yeah Stinger, we've had a TE who bails our QBs out. We've had a great rushing attack (minus 2006). We've never put pressure on our offense to win games. All the offense had to do was NOT suck, and play even average. Protect leads.


We never needed a #1 WR until now, when our defense is beginning to crumble.

Boller and the offense couldn't even handle the pressure of that.

I mean seriously, you're going to sit here and defend and make excuses for a QB that isn't even good enough to protect leads, play smart, and be efficient? I can't even imagine how he plays when actual pressure is put on him to win games and lead an offense. You want to see that?

(oh yeah, I forgot, you'll use Boller's once-in-a-lifetime versus NE as the proof)...


Give me a break dude. You are absolutely off-hinge. I am in awe that someone would actually say "We never needed a #1 WR until now".

BTW......PSSST. Where's our bail-out TE been all year? Your selective memory is fascinating.

That is awesome copenhaggard. That is how winning teams think.

And here's a question, WHO and WHAT SYSTEM tells the QB's not to win games, just not to lose them? I guess that is all the QB's fault too. I'm sure Boller, and Redman, and McNair, and Blake, and on down started getting plays in their ears and had to call time-outs to go to the sidelines to plead with Billick not to run imaginative plays or send a WR deep.


Oh yeah, and if "I won", we'd have a actual #1 WR. But we don't. And it is a headscratcher to read someone type that we don't need one.

(oh, and I can point to more than just the NE game. Unfortunately your hatred has blinded you to anything but that as a response. Good work Copen. I see YBR has taught you well.)

[purplepoe]

All I will say is this.

There is most definitely some serious hypocrisy that has gone on this year with regards to the way the QBs get critiqued on this board.

And it's painfully obvious.

PP

[TTRaven]

(oh, and I can point to more than just the NE game. Unfortunately your hatred has blinded you to anything but that as a response. Good work Copen. I see YBR has taught you well.)

That's the problem though. You can point to a few games where Boller has been decent, but you seem to leave out the majority of games where Boller has been bad.

[darb72]

Like I've been saying all along, this system is a QB killer.

Yes, I said it when McNair was playing like crap. I said it when Boller, Blake and Wright were playing like crap.

[StingerNLG]

That's the problem though. You can point to a few games where Boller has been decent, but you seem to leave out the majority of games where Boller has been bad.

It's literally been about 50/50. Boller has won 20 games you know.

No one is absolving Kyle Boller of his own issues. We know he has them. The question is how much of that development was hampered by the system. The same system that has retired Pro-Bowl QB's, and sent the rest to nowhereland.

Think about it. THE ONLY QB to actually succeed outside of the Ravens SO FAR (and it's just one season) has been Derek Anderson. Why do you think that is?

BECAUSE HE ACTUALLY HASN'T HAD TO PLAY HERE! The guy hasn't had to take a meaningful snap for Brian Billick. So he was able to get picked up and learn a whole new system before being put on the field and asked to play.

Coincidence? I think not.


That brings me to Troy Smith. I really don't give a shit if Troy Smith does or doesn't play this year. If he's the starter, I root for him like I root for everyone else.

Unfortunately, I don't see a scenerio under the current conditions that tells me he's going to succeed where many others have fallen. And it has nothing to do with his ability or past college career. I don't dislike Troy Smith, not even a little. Actually, I really have no real opinion one way or the other about him.

But think about it. Boller was handed the ball day one against the Steelers and just told not to lose. No pressure there, right? Just don't screw up. Great. So now let's say Troy is starting against Miami. What's the message there?

"Hey Troy. Listen the Dolphins are 0-13 dude. Here's the ball and your first NFL start. Don't let us be the team that becomes their only win of the season. Oh yeah, go without Todd Heap and Demetrius Williams. Oh and the defense will probably give up points because we IR'd Chris McAlister.

Good luck Troy."

Just great.

[xmradiodave]

"Hey Troy. Listen the Dolphins are 0-13 dude. Here's the ball and your first NFL start. Don't let us be the team that becomes their only win of the season. Oh yeah, go without Todd Heap and Demetrius Williams. Oh and the defense will probably give up points because we IR'd Chris McAlister.

Good luck Troy."

Just great.

"Hey Kyle. Listen the Dolphins are 0-13 dude. Here's the ball and your however many NFL starts. Don't let us be the team that becomes their only win of the season. Oh yeah, go without Todd Heap and Demetrius Williams. Oh and the defense will probably give up points because we IR'd Chris McAlister.


See... it looks just the same. Just a different name. All I am saying is this. It does into matter to me at this point in the season. We clearly have more problems other than the QB position. So why not let Troy play?

[RavenTD]

Like I've been saying all along, this system is a QB killer.

Yes, I said it when McNair was playing like crap. I said it when Boller, Blake and Wright were playing like crap.


A ball control offense makes a turnover five times as costly.
But there again a ball control offense should take the pressure off of the QB.
I put it down to the playcalling in certain situations, 3rd down and redzone.

[StingerNLG]

"Hey Kyle. Listen the Dolphins are 0-13 dude. Here's the ball and your however many NFL starts. Don't let us be the team that becomes their only win of the season. Oh yeah, go without Todd Heap and Demetrius Williams. Oh and the defense will probably give up points because we IR'd Chris McAlister.


See... it looks just the same. Just a different name. All I am saying is this. It does into matter to me at this point in the season. We clearly have more problems other than the QB position. So why not let Troy play?


That's an easy answer. Boller is already damaged goods. What harm is it in him playing? Troy Smith hasn't been damaged yet. So why take the chance of screwing him up too? ;)

[festivus]

A ball control offense makes a turnover five times as costly.
But there again a ball control offense should take the pressure off of the QB.
I put it down to the playcalling in certain situations, 3rd down and redzone.

On a tangient, and this thread kind of deserves one, in the Indy game we regularly ran off tackle, right up the gut on 2d & 3d and short (1, 2 yards) if I remember correctly. And we got stuffed.

There is a difference between calling the right play in short yardage situations, and converting short yardage situations.

[festivus]

That's an easy answer. Boller is already damaged goods. What harm is it in him playing? Troy Smith hasn't been damaged yet. So why take the chance of screwing him up too? ;)

:laugh: Now *there* you're talking my half-serious language, Stinger. ;)

[4G63]

That's an easy answer. Boller is already damaged goods. What harm is it in him playing? Troy Smith hasn't been damaged yet. So why take the chance of screwing him up too? ;)

Damaged in what way? physically? mentally?

[festivus]

I think for once Stinger was not being completely serious, 4G63. For which I give him many props. :)

[4G63]

But the main point for me is consistant play from that QB.No, not consistantly bad.But better than average,I'd settle for that than a turnover machine right now.


What we need is someone like this guy:

http://graphics.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2006/12/26/1167138003_7815.jpg

13 TD's and 1 Int. 103.3 rating. Jacksonville is a lot like our team. Great defense and a good offense. They just have a QB that's mobile enough to make plays and DOESN'T turn the ball over!

[4G63]

I think for once Stinger was not being completely serious, 4G63. For which I give him many props. :)

You're right, I didn't pay attention to the ;) at the end.......

[StingerNLG]

Yes guys. It was a playful response to Dave's playful response to me. :D

I am not one to get in the way of the SPOTS movement, not to worry. :)

[copenhaggard]

Give me a break dude. You are absolutely off-hinge. I am in awe that someone would actually say "We never needed a #1 WR until now".

BTW......PSSST. Where's our bail-out TE been all year? Your selective memory is fascinating.

That is awesome copenhaggard. That is how winning teams think.

And here's a question, WHO and WHAT SYSTEM tells the QB's not to win games, just not to lose them? I guess that is all the QB's fault too. I'm sure Boller, and Redman, and McNair, and Blake, and on down started getting plays in their ears and had to call time-outs to go to the sidelines to plead with Billick not to run imaginative plays or send a WR deep.


Oh yeah, and if "I won", we'd have a actual #1 WR. But we don't. And it is a headscratcher to read someone type that we don't need one.

(oh, and I can point to more than just the NE game. Unfortunately your hatred has blinded you to anything but that as a response. Good work Copen. I see YBR has taught you well.)

Yes, yes, my selective memory forgot all about this year, my bad. This isn't about just this year, this has been about ALL the years.

Until this season, our defense was the main reason we won games, case and point. We've never been able to just start adding #1 talent to our offense, when we've had so much tied up in the defense. But we've had enough talent on offense to win, and we haven't. I mean, what kind of personnel are you expecting with a salary cap?

Did you and some of the other people here JUST realize we are missing some needed pieces on offense, including an actual fucking gameplan? Or did you only realize that when Boller failed?

Oh, about the unimaginative plays. What type of offense can Boller run? He, and the rest of the QBs we've had couldn't even run a "play not to lose" offense. Now you want Billick to open the playbook more? What did "opening" the playbook up this year do? What did throwing the ball 60-40 do?

You complain about not having a deep threat #1 receiver, yet you are complain that we didn't in the past run a dynamic offense, with deep routes? Our QBs can't even get the ball to our receivers deep now, and certainly not before.

What are you going to point to the NE game for? Great, and I mean great game by Boller, followed by a stinker. Story of his career. Scattered great games, with a whole hell of a lot of inconsistency. You know, if Boller was at least consistent, do you think we would even be having this conversation?

[OriAl]

It doesn't matter as much who plays QB for us as it does that the offensive line protects him consistently. Brady and Manning have great talent, no question, but they also consistently get lots of time to scan the field and find open receivers. When they get pressured, they're mortal (Manning had a six pick game, Brady struggles when pressured.) The Ravens under Billick, save for last season. have had problems with pass blocking (run blocking was the focus) and problems with QB production - the two are related. McNair this season continued to display his problem at the end of last season, inability to throw deep, but he was also constantly pressured and sacked, which made matters worse. Whether we sign a free agent stopgap to start at QB next season, or Boller starts (even if we draft a QB instead of the shutdown corners we desperately need, he won't start, possibly all season), the offensive line MUST do a much better job protecting the signal caller if we are to have any hope of increasing the points scored and decreasing the turnovers by the QB.

In no way am I saying that Boller, Smith, or prior Raven QBs would be Brady or Manning if they had the same protection those guys get, as those guys are more talented. I am saying that with better protection, Boller would be more consistent and put up better numbers and more points. We saw against the Pats, even with so-so protection (he was often hit just after he threw, or a defender just missed hitting his arm as he was throwing), that he can play well with some protection - with better protection, it's only logical to think he could play that well or better on a regular basis. If he could average 24+ points a game, the defense (which has also had a down year, as it doesn't pressure QBs or force turnovers) would have less pressure on it. I know I'm in the minority, but I think Boller can do that, but it depends on pass protection. Offense starts with the offensive line - if it doesn't make holes for running backs, or protect passers, the offense will struggle.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

All I will say is this.

There is most definitely some serious hypocrisy that has gone on this year with regards to the way the QBs get critiqued on this board.

And it's painfully obvious.

PP

Yup.