Bisciotti has messed up his first major decision

[b-more_4_Life]

He's admitted he's bring back Compu Coach:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/football/bal-billick1212,0,7749404.story

I cant believe he wants to bring back Billick. I guess he wants to continue to have the Ravens:

1. Be undisciplined
2. Cant run a 2 min offense
3. Rack up the penalties
4. Run an offense a high school team would laugh at
5. Unable to develop a QB
6. Have say in personnel decisions so that we can draft a QB who can throw a ball 50 yards from his knees through the goal post but cant connect on a 2 yard pass.
7. Mess up our organization for another 5 years with his say in picking a possible franchise QB

I guess Bisciotti has never learned the concept of a sunk cost:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost

[HoustonRaven]

He's admitted he's bring back Compu Coach:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/football/bal-billick1212,0,7749404.story

I cant believe he wants to bring back Billick. I guess he wants to continue to have the Ravens:

1. Be undisciplined
2. Cant run a 2 min offense
3. Rack up the penalties
4. Run an offense a high school team would laugh at
5. Unable to develop a QB
6. Have say in personnel decisions so that we can draft a QB who can throw a ball 50 yards from his knees through the goal post but cant connect on a 2 yard pass.
7. Mess up our organization for another 5 years with his say in picking a possible franchise QB

I guess Bisciotti has never learned the concept of a sunk cost:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost

Shame on you for quoting anything from the The Setting Sun.

Re-read the last sentence. You can rub it in my face if Im wrong, but I cant see BB coming back.

[xmradiodave]

An undisclosed source? If the person can not give their name, I do not buy too much into it. I will wait until I hear it right from Biscuits mouth.

[Bez513]

I'm not surprised...really I'm not. Mr. B made the mistake of signing him to a long term deal and to break that deal would be a big $$$ loss to him. He's a business man and understands that.

The question is did Mr. B till Brian changes have to be made in 2008? Like getting a good OC and handing over play calling to them?

This may be a bumpy ride....

[Dade]

Doesn't it seem like the sun only runs stories on "sources" that always take the fans side of things.

Sorry but I'll wait till the off season to hear it straight from Bisciotti's mouth. Far as I'm concerned BB is still on the hot seat.

[festivus]

BB is the same guy who was the HC last year when we went to the playoffs with a 13-3 record, and has taken us to the playoffs 4 of the 9 years he's been here.

I seriously doubt (a) he took Stupid Pills in the last off season or (b) Stevie B. is going to fire him after, literally, *one* truly bad year during his tenure here. I could be wrong, but I hope not.

[btownraven]

I'm not surprised...really I'm not. Mr. B made the mistake of signing him to a long term deal and to break that deal would be a big $$$ loss to him. He's a business man and understands that.

Not if he read the definition of sunk cost. He has to pay Billick next year regardless. So he can keep Billick next year, pay him $5M, and have a team that is undisciplined, has a HS offense, chooses QB's based on their ability to throw 50 yards from their knees, and wins 5 games. OR he can pay Billick $5MM, hire a new coach for an additional $2-3M (e.g. Jason Garrett?) and have a much more disciplined team, an NFL offense, and win 9-10 games. I bet 4-5 extra wins is easily worth an additional $2-3M in marketing opportunities alone.

[RavensInBrazil]

You really think a coach is going to bring us 4-5 extra wins?

[btownraven]

BB is the same guy who was the HC last year when we went to the playoffs with a 13-3 record, and has taken us to the playoffs 4 of the 9 years he's been here.

I seriously doubt (a) he took Stupid Pills in the last off season or (b) Stevie B. is going to fire him after, literally, *one* truly bad year during his tenure here. I could be wrong, but I hope not.
First of all Festivus, I support SPOTS 100%!

I don't think Billick took stupid pills at all. I strongly believe that he was the perfect coach for the Ravens when they hired him and that we would not have won the Super Bowl without him. The Ravens desperately needed his cocky attitude given their 16-31-1 record and the negative publicity from the move.

However, I think the Ravens now need a new voice. We need less attitude and cockiness and more X's & O's and better game management. We need new ideas on offense - and I don't believe we'll ever get that even with a new OC if he reports to Billick. The NFL has become even more of a QB league in the last 10 years and I don't trust Billick's input on QB's.

I also disagree that he's only had one bad year. 3 of the last 4 seasons ('04, '05, '07) the Ravens have badly underachieved. Yes, injuries have been a factor this year, but so have penalties, poor play-calling, and misuse of talent. And why has the side of the ball that Billick handles consistently misjudged talent (Priest Holmes, Derek Anderson, Brandon Stokely come to mind) while the other side of the ball always seems to maximize its talent (what have Weaver, Hartwell, Demps, Starks, and Sharper done since leaving)?

Brian Billick belongs in the Ring of Honor at M&T. But it's time for a new voice on the sideline.

[Greg]

Not if he read the definition of sunk cost. He has to pay Billick next year regardless.
I think Bisciotti knows a bit more about business than you, he started in a basement and made himself a billionaire.

Indeed he has to pay Billick but he doesn't have to pay somebody else.

[btownraven]

You really think a coach is going to bring us 4-5 extra wins?
It happens quite a bit. Just last year Mike McCarthy won 4 more games than Mike Sherman had the year before (and he's already got 3 more this year than last year). Bill Parcells won 5 more in Dallas and 8 more in New York in his first seasons (although he would cost a lot more than $3M).

[btownraven]

I think Bisciotti knows a bit more about business than you, he started in a basement and made himself a billionaire.

Indeed he has to pay Billick but he doesn't have to pay somebody else.

I've seen a lot of brilliant businessmen make "sunk cost" mistakes. It's usually because it involves admitting a previous mistake. Heck, I've made the mistake myself and I readily admit that I'm not the businessman Bisciotti is.

My point is that the $5M should be irrelevant to his decision. You have to pay it regardless. The decision that Bisciotti has to make is whether to pay someone else $3M to coach the team and get better results or continue with Billick, not pay an extra $3M, and get better results. My argument, after 9 years of the same voice, is that by paying an extra $3M he will get better results. In fact I think the better results will be worth more than the $3M he pays for the new coach.

If Bisciotti doesn't think he can get better results by paying the extra $3M (or whatever he would negotiate with a new coach) then he should keep Billick. But that is all he should be thinking about. He should NOT be thinking about the $5MM owed to Billick because he HAS to pay it REGARDLESS.

[RustonRifle]

I guess SB is satisfied with a decent season every other year and no playoff wins for seven seasons despite superior talent for most of it. I have trouble believing Rich Kotite would have less success than billick if he had the same roster.

Looks like woeful offensive performance and oriole losing seasons can be counted on in Baltimore like death and taxes.


Even the mere thought of Billick having another young quarterback to destroy makes me want to :ralph:

[Galen Sevinne]

Billick will be back next year. Boller will start as QB. This will happen. What I hope for is a new offensive coordinator.

D.F. had a blog yesterday about whether PSl owners would sell their PSLs if Billick is back next year and people were actually saying yes. :187734:

I like the continuity. The only problem I have with Billick is I think he tends to lack a feel for the moment of a game and makes 2-3 questionable calls at integral moments and this year it has cost the Ravens. I have posted about those calls in the past.

Billick was a great coach last year. McNair threw the interception at the goal line because he was baited by the d-back. I believe if that goes for a touchdown, the Ravens win the Super Bowl and Billick is praised.

The QB that gives us the best chance to win is starting. We have had major injuries on defense - McAllister, Rolle, Pryce..on offense - Ogden, Heap, Wilcox, McNair, Williams, Clayton, Flynn, and special teams - Sams, Wilcox.

It is easy to blame Billick. Obviously Bisciotti and Ozzie look deeper than the surface.

[festivus]

:iagree:

What he said.

[StingerNLG]

Billick will be back next year. Boller will start as QB. This will happen. What I hope for is a new offensive coordinator.

D.F. had a blog yesterday about whether PSl owners would sell their PSLs if Billick is back next year and people were actually saying yes. :187734:

I like the continuity. The only problem I have with Billick is I think he tends to lack a feel for the moment of a game and makes 2-3 questionable calls at integral moments and this year it has cost the Ravens. I have posted about those calls in the past.

Billick was a great coach last year. McNair threw the interception at the goal line because he was baited by the d-back. I believe if that goes for a touchdown, the Ravens win the Super Bowl and Billick is praised.

The QB that gives us the best chance to win is starting. We have had major injuries on defense - McAllister, Rolle, Pryce..on offense - Ogden, Heap, Wilcox, McNair, Williams, Clayton, Flynn, and special teams - Sams, Wilcox.

It is easy to blame Billick. Obviously Bisciotti and Ozzie look deeper than the surface.


RACK IT! :iagree:

Does he need to bring in an offensive coordinator that will be allowed to run his OWN offense? Absolfreakinglutely.

But as a head coach, he still has a lot of worth. He's still won more than he's lost.

And guess what folks, the Falcons now have to look for a HC. So now any thoughts of who you think should come to the Ravens might actually head to Atlanta. And now that we've seen yet another college coach come to the NFL and bolt back to College the first time something comes up, even if it's during the season, Bisciotti wouldn't likely look at a college coach anymore.

[AZRAVEN]

Even more disturbing to me is the comment regarding the team staying essentially the same (paraphraseing here) next season. I know I'm in a very small minority in this belief, but I strongly believe this team has serious issues over and above Brian Billick. It appears little will be addressed in the offseason. That really disturbs me.

[b-more_4_Life]

RACK IT! :iagree:

Does he need to bring in an offensive coordinator that will be allowed to run his OWN offense? Absolfreakinglutely.



This thinking that all Billick needs to be successful is a good offensive coordinator is a joke. You people really think Mr. Big Ego himself is going to stay out of the offensive side of the ball. All you have to do is look 35 miles to the South and see how well Gibbs has stayed out of the offense with a very good o-coordinator!

And let's just say that you guys are right and a offensive coordinator fixes everything.

Do we need then hire a separate coach to handle a lack of discipline that has followed the Ravens since Billick has been here?

Do we then hire someone who knows how handle the clock?

Do we then hire someone who treats everyone the same and not give star players different treatment?

When does it end?

It ends with Billick being shown the door and a new chapter beginning in Baltimore.

Although the offense is a serious problem, there are many other problems that need to be solved and that are directly the fault of Billick.

Billick has way too many flaws and now is the TIME to fix these problems!

[AZRAVEN]

Well, he has shown in the past that he will follow orders. If SB, Oz and the rest of the brain trust tell him to change something I think he will.
As far as undisciplined players, forget it there is no way these guys can be reined in they've behaved this way their entire careers. Remember, Billick was ordered to play nice with the players a couple years ago so SB got what he wanted - now he gets to live with it and unfortunately so do we. THis is what happens when you put the inmates in charge of the asylum.

[StingerNLG]

This thinking that all Billick needs to be successful is a good offensive coordinator is a joke. You people really think Mr. Big Ego himself is going to stay out of the offensive side of the ball. All you have to do is look 35 miles to the South and see how well Gibbs has stayed out of the offense with a very good o-coordinator!

Let's be real here. Call Brian Billick anything you want. But even HE knows you don't call back-to-back time-outs to ice kickers.



Billick has way too many flaws and now is the TIME to fix these problems!

Ok B. Who's it gonna be then? Who's coming to Baltimore if Billick is fired? There are a lot more coach firings about to happen, so it's not like we're going to have the pick of the litter here. You want to bring in a college coach who could pull a Bobby Patrino or Steve Spurrier after 13 games of not liking the NFL life? You want a scrap heap coach someone else fires?

Want to call up Coach Meathead who used to coach the Vikings maybe? Or hey, we could call Jim Fassel up. He's been looking for a HC job too.

[copenhaggard]

Yeah, not having a clear cut experienced HC replacement worked up terribly for the Steelers, didn't it Stinger........

That's the problem right there. A lot of people think there isn't anyone out there right now better than Billick.

This isn't a Chargers-like situation either. The team has been underachieving a lot in the past 4 years. Discipline has been a major problem. Un-preparedness as been a major problem. The offense ( which is all on Billick, since he's the OC, and it's his system ) has had major problems. The team looks lost, undisciplined, and has no urgency.

And please, enough of the injury excuses. Injuries might have prevented this team from making the playoffs, and even finishing .500. Injuries did not cause this team to become a fucking laughing stock of the league. The coaching, the players, and the overall attitude of this team did. Guess who is in charge of the team? Billick. If he is so great, then how about he takes charge, and fixes some problems, tells some of the players to STFU and stop acting like babies (mainly Scott).

Billick acts like nothing is wrong. He's done, or should be. The Ravens and Billick need a fresh start.

PS. Look at the Bills for example. The Bills have less talent than us, no question about it. They are in the playoff race. They have better coaching than us. If something isn't working well for them, they CHANGE it. They don't pussy-foot around. If the starting QB sucks, and isn't getting it done, he sits. McNair never would've playing against Cinci if that was the situation here. Boller wouldn't be starting now either. JP's been the starter there for I believe 2 years. He sucks...guess what, he's done there most likely. This whole ridiculous Boller situation never would've happened anywhere else in the league, and I'm almost certain. I'm not saying the Bills are a model franchise, but that team is just an example of what a more disciplined team, with less talent, and better coaching can do.

Does anyone really think the Bills are more talented than us? They've had plenty of injuries too...

[ClericBlackDave]

Yeah, not having a clear cut experienced HC replacement worked up terribly for the Steelers, didn't it Stinger........

That's the problem right there. A lot of people think there isn't anyone out there right now better than Billick.

This isn't a Chargers-like situation either. The team has been underachieving a lot in the past 4 years. Discipline has been a major problem. Un-preparedness as been a major problem. The offense ( which is all on Billick, since he's the OC, and it's his system ) has had major problems. The team looks lost, undisciplined, and has no urgency.



To counter what you just said, I think you don't realize that the Steelers were basically a fully functional team when their new GREAT head coach took over.


He didn't have to come in and install a new offense, and he didn't. he didn't install a new defense. He's just the head guy. He makes the big calls, directs practices, helps set the gameplan.


For the Ravens to go out and get a new headcoach, that means you're also looking for is a new offensive system. Installing a new system would basically make next year, and maybe even 2009, rebuilding years.


Now, god forbid we chucked Brian Billick overboard AND Rex Ryan got a head coaching job. Then what?


The is a lack of "talent" in the general coaching pool right now.


When you see a guy like Lane Kiffin doing DECENT turning around the Raiders but upset that he didn't get the Arkansas job but Bobby Petrino did, you can see the trouble teams have getting a coach with 1/2 the experience and track record Billick has.


The reality is, if Brian Billick leaves here and even REMOTELY wanted another headcoaching position, he's have it somewhere else in a heartbeat.


He has a superbowl ring, he's a players coach and takes up for his people. Doesn't matter if his players and the fans don't appreciate that he does that, or that he has a winning record.


Everyone will realize how much they miss him when you have some genius offensive coordinator from another team or some other boot has-been or college guru come in and struggle.


At this point, this is Billick's mess to clean up, and he has next year to do it.


I'm pretty confident. His track record says he will.

[highwater]

As far as undisciplined players, forget it there is no way these guys can be reined in they've behaved this way their entire careers. Remember, Billick was ordered to play nice with the players a couple years ago so SB got what he wanted - now he gets to live with it and unfortunately so do we.

This is a really good point which rarely gets talked about. I would like Billick to at least try to tighten things up a bit but I think he takes too much heat for the whole lack of discipline issue. It's only a few players who are guilty of this, not the whole team, and that's just who they are. When T.O. acted like an ass last season, I didn't hear too many people complaining about how Parcells doesn't know how to rein in his players.

[ravenwoman]

Billick is getting a pass this year for (2) reasons:

1. He has a big contract
2. The team has suffered massive injuries to its 1st string players.

Some of Billick's decisions have cost us 3-4 wins this year, no doubt about it. But even if he were the perfect coach, 4 more wins would not make much difference this year. New England and the Colts are much better teams and there is no doubt one of them will reach the Super Bowl and probably win it.

A coach can't win you a game, but they can lose it for you.

Our team's organization is run by committee, so it was obvious that Ozzie, Dick Cass, Mr. B. and others felt Billick should return. When an organization is run by committee the changes are slow and are voted upon. The emotions are taken out of the decision, which is why as fans, we are upset. We want change now, not thinking about the business side of it.

Even if we lose the next (3), don't look for Billick to be fired, because it just isn't going to happen.

[xmradiodave]

I agree with the bottom line "who else is out there". while I do not think Billick has handled this season well and I also believe he bit off more than he can che with the play calling, there are not many options out there. This has been a terrible season in all aspects. If there were someone out there with experience and was clammoring for the head coach position, then sure I would agee with the fire BB at the end of the season. As of right now, too much money on his contract, and lack of prospects for the job sway me to the "might as well wait and see" side of the ball.

[highwater]

Even if we lose the next (3), don't look for Billick to be fired, because it just isn't going to happen.

I wouldn't go that far -- if the Ravens end the season on a ten game losing streak, including losing to an 0-13 team, then I think anything's possible.

Given the train wreck this season has become, it's hard to remember that we were 4-2 at one point.

[ravenjoe]

Well, it sure would be nice (sorry BB, I like you, but....) to wake up Dec 31 and find out that Bill Cowher was the New Ravens HC! For me, that would be a wonderful Xmas present.

[highwater]

Well, it sure would be nice (sorry BB, I like you, but....) to wake up Dec 31 and find out that Bill Cowher was the New Ravens HC! For me, that would be a wonderful Xmas present.

:ralph:

[xmradiodave]

:iagree:

[b-more_4_Life]

Ok B. Who's it gonna be then? Who's coming to Baltimore if Billick is fired?



Ok, Stinger you want an answer I'll tell you. I've been saying since the Cincy game that this team lacks discipline and focus. You could see on that first night that Billick's Camp Med had come back to haunt us big time. And I really believe that his lax training camp has resulted in the injuries we have this year. Hell it wasnt until October that McGahee was fully in shape. Because Billick didnt want to wear him out. Give me a break!

So whose the coach I want that will instill discipline and focus....Bill Cowher!

Now some of you guys cant deal with the fact that he was the Stillers coach. Big F'n Deal do you guys want to consistently win or do you want to continue this BS of one year up one year down under Billick?

[xmradiodave]

Ok, Stinger you want an answer I'll tell you. I've been saying since the Cincy game that this team lacks discipline and focus. You could see on that first night that Billick's Camp Med had come back to haunt us big time. And I really believe that his lax training camp has resulted in the injuries we have this year. Hell it wasnt until October that McGahee was fully in shape. Because Billick didnt want to wear him out. Give me a break!

So whose the coach I want that will instill discipline and focus....Bill Cowher!

Now some of you guys cant deal with the fact that he was the Stillers coach. Big F'n Deal do you guys want to consistently win or do you want to continue this BS of one year up one year down under Billick?

You can want Cowher all you want. He is a damn solid coach. That is a pipe dream though. He will not be coaching in Baltimore. Billick will be.

[RustonRifle]

Does anyone believe that Billick has gotten the most out of the talent he has been given by the front office over the years?



I can't believe some fans would rather be stuck in mediocrity than take a chance on greatness.


No guts no glory I suppose.


It's one thing to lose because of personnel and injuries but that is still no excuse for lacking focus , game planning /in game management, discipline, piss poor offense for 9 straight seasons and a host of other issues that lay solely at the feet of the coaching staff.

Who cares who is available, I believe in this front office and believe they will make the right hire if given the chance.

[ClericBlackDave]

It's one thing to lose because of personnel and injuries but that is still no excuse for lacking focus , game planning /in game management, discipline, piss poor offense for 9 straight seasons and a host of other issues that lay solely at the feet of the coaching staff.

Who cares who is available, I believe in this front office and believe they will make the right hire if given the chance.

If you believe in the front office, then why do you have a problem believing they recognize the available candidates and, other than a Bill Cowher, don't think any would be better than Brian Billick?

Your logic is contradictory. You trust, but you don't trust.


The reality is there is a dearth of good coaching in the NFL.


Your assumption that anyone the FO could hire would be better than Brian Billick is retarded. There just isn't tons of viable coaching candidates out there.


Look at San Diego taking Norv Turner after firing Schottenheimer. Playoffs or no, Superbowl or no, firing Schottenheimer, like firing Billick, is a losing move because 1) he helped build you to where you are and 2) you have to hire someone BETTER, not a jibroni like Norv Turner or some useless college coach.


What team that has a successful offense has a coordinator who we could interview who could install a similar offense AND lead a bunch of aging veterans?


That is the issue.

[btownraven]

Look at San Diego taking Norv Turner after firing Schottenheimer. Playoffs or no, Superbowl or no, firing Schottenheimer, like firing Billick, is a losing move because 1) he helped build you to where you are and 2) you have to fire someone BETTER, not a jibroni like Norv Turner or some useless college coach.

I get so tired of hearing this comparison. There are 2 aspects of this situation that are VERY different from the Ravens' situation:
1) The Chargers were NOT underachieving consistently (unlike the Ravens in 3 of the last 4 years), were not having discipline issues, and did not have major issues on one side of the ball that the head coach focused on.
2) The Chargers fired Schottenheimer VERY late in the process and the top candidates were off the market. Then they made the ego-driven decision of hiring the lesser of their top 2 candidates (so AJ Smith could prove that his great talent could succeed under any coaching).

I, for one, have a lot more faith in Ozzie Newsome (if given the freedom) to make an excellent decision in choosing a coach if he has a full selection of candidates from which to choose. Unfortunately I'm afraid that Bisciotti is not giving Ozzie the full freedom he's earned to run this organization. That scares me.

[RustonRifle]

If you believe in the front office, then why do you have a problem believing they recognize the available candidates and, other than a Bill Cowher, don't think any would be better than Brian Billick?



I don't believe the front office is making the call on BB, I believe ownership is. Some may view ownership as front office but I don't.




Your logic is contradictory. You trust, but you don't trust.





SEE ABOVE:taz:



The reality is there is a dearth of good coaching in the NFL.


I agree but there are quality coaches looking for jobs. Me I'm not one for recycled ex-head coaches.





Your assumption that anyone the FO could hire would be better than Brian Billick is retarded. There just isn't tons of viable coaching candidates out there.



Where did you get I assumed this? The Ravens don't need TONS of head coaches, they need just one. I believe the front office would hire someone that is better than billick after seeing his offense for nine seasons. The defense can carry this team on its back no longer.

Be careful how you drop insults in your posts. I take no offense because I consider the source but some [including their clique] may have to dry out their panties.:141847_bdmoon:



Look at San Diego taking Norv Turner after firing Schottenheimer. Playoffs or no, Superbowl or no, firing Schottenheimer, like firing Billick, is a losing move because 1) he helped build you to where you are and 2) you have to fire someone BETTER, not a jibroni like Norv Turner or some useless college coach.


SEE above-recycled head coach.




What team that has a successful offense has a coordinator who we could interview who could install a similar offense AND lead a bunch of aging veterans?


That is the issue.


That is what the front office gets paid to do. Brian Billick was an assistant when he got the job here and more are available on a annual basis.

[AZRAVEN]

What is this love affair with Bill Cowher? In my mind he's a coach, as is Schottenheimer, on a par with Billick. There were a number of underperforming years for the Steelers when he was coach and Schottenheimer could never win in the playoffs. Cowher certainly had some loose canons on his Steeler teams over the years just as the Ravens do. I'm sorry I don't see a whole lot of upgrade with him.
I personally believe we Ravens fans have a tendency to over value the talent on this team. While the defense has been stellar over the years I believe it is more the systems our DC's have employed than the players. I base that on the lack of production out of players who were stars here that are average when they leave. Great players usually stay great regardless of where they are playing. On offense, outside of Jamal Lewis in his heyday, Ogden when he could cut it, and maybe Todd Heap when he can stay on the field just how many "stars" have we ever had? I can't think of one. In fact, in many areas, WR for example, we haven't even had average players. Special teams, likewise, have always been spotty. I'm sorry, I just don't think this has been that overwhelmingly talented a team over the years. You couple that with the inflated egos that populate the team and you have problems.
The one thing I see with the Patriots that I believe separates them from the pack is they have a singular mindset. That is the one thing I think Belichick is great at, if they have big egos when they get there they either don't stay or they get over themselves. A lot of their players are not exceptional, they just know their role and can be interchangeable.
The Ravens, on the other hand, chose to buy into the "star system" and so we are infected with a bunch of preening, strutting, prima donnas who regardless of the teams performance must showcase themselves. While this is partly on Billick I also believe it's partly on Bisciotti, instead of telling Billick to rein them in and get control he told him publically to play nice and get along with everyone.
In short, unless the mindset changes it doesn't matter that much who the coach is the results will stay the same.

[Rochardrik]

Not if he read the definition of sunk cost. He has to pay Billick next year regardless. So he can keep Billick next year, pay him $5M, and have a team that is undisciplined, has a HS offense, chooses QB's based on their ability to throw 50 yards from their knees, and wins 5 games. OR he can pay Billick $5MM, hire a new coach for an additional $2-3M (e.g. Jason Garrett?) and have a much more disciplined team, an NFL offense, and win 9-10 games. I bet 4-5 extra wins is easily worth an additional $2-3M in marketing opportunities alone.Jason Garret is going NOWHERE!Jerry Jones is grooming him to take over for phillips in a few years!

[Rochardrik]

What is this love affair with Bill Cowher? In my mind he's a coach, as is Schottenheimer, on a par with Billick. There were a number of underperforming years for the Steelers when he was coach and Schottenheimer could never win in the playoffs. Cowher certainly had some loose canons on his Steeler teams over the years just as the Ravens do. I'm sorry I don't see a whole lot of upgrade with him.
I personally believe we Ravens fans have a tendency to over value the talent on this team. While the defense has been stellar over the years I believe it is more the systems our DC's have employed than the players. I base that on the lack of production out of players who were stars here that are average when they leave. Great players usually stay great regardless of where they are playing. On offense, outside of Jamal Lewis in his heyday, Ogden when he could cut it, and maybe Todd Heap when he can stay on the field just how many "stars" have we ever had? I can't think of one. In fact, in many areas, WR for example, we haven't even had average players. Special teams, likewise, have always been spotty. I'm sorry, I just don't think this has been that overwhelmingly talented a team over the years. You couple that with the inflated egos that populate the team and you have problems.
The one thing I see with the Patriots that I believe separates them from the pack is they have a singular mindset. That is the one thing I think Belichick is great at, if they have big egos when they get there they either don't stay or they get over themselves. A lot of their players are not exceptional, they just know their role and can be interchangeable.
The Ravens, on the other hand, chose to buy into the "star system" and so we are infected with a bunch of preening, strutting, prima donnas who regardless of the teams performance must showcase themselves. While this is partly on Billick I also believe it's partly on Bisciotti, instead of telling Billick to rein them in and get control he told him publically to play nice and get along with everyone.
In short, unless the mindset changes it doesn't matter that much who the coach is the results will stay the same.

:iagree: :iagree:

[festivus]

Let's express it mathematically. The concern is our team has a few players, let's call them 'stars,' who preen and strut and sort of do there own thing. You can like them, or approve of their attitude, or not, but that's what they do.

I like Terrel Suggs as a player and I'm glad he's a Raven. But he preens, and gets penalties, and talks plenty. So we'll use him as our example.

Players interact with their coaches, who act as (hopefully) some kind of force multiplier for the player, getting the most he can out of the player. Plus other constant factors such as locker room chemistry will remain constant, I'll represent that stuff with an x.

So let's do the math with two separate coaches:

(Billick * Suggs) + x

and
(Cowher * Suggs) + x

Well, you can subtract x from both
(Billick * Suggs)
(Cowher * Suggs)

and divide Suggs from each equation
(Billick)
(Cowher)

and are left with

Billick = Cowher

So there you go.

Those of you who think the team peacocks will suddenly stop being peacocks with a new HC have now been mathematically proven wrong.

[Galen Sevinne]

Cowher was more or less loathed in Pittsburgh for most of his years. He won a Super Bowl in 2005 but here wasn't anything dominant about that team or its coaching. Ask any Pittsburgh fan about what they thought of Cowher. Personally I think he was a good head coach just as I think Billick is a good head coach.

The decision to keep Billick was made by three guys, Bisciotti, Ozzie and Cass. They understand that this year is difficult to evaluate Billick because of the enormous amount of injuries to key personel. People can try to minimize the impact of injuries because the team's party line is to minimize injuries but when it comes down to the final evaluation of the 2007 Ravens, injuries will be paramount.

Blaming Bisciotti for keeping Billick is akin to blamimg Billick for 2007. It is easy and surface level. Bisciotti has earned my respect for being a businessman based on the fact that the guy is a self-made billionaire. You really think he is naive to the factors necessary to evaluate the head coach of his team??? Somehow we as fans know more than what he knows with the resources around him??? puuhleeeee!

It is also a myth that the Ravens are so out of control. Yes, Bart Scott did throw a flag into the stands and he has taken responsibilty for that and apologized at every opportunity. It is my opinion he is truly regretful fo that action. I personally like that fire in Scott and the rest of the defense. I wish the offense threw a flag into the crowd once in a while. Again it is an easy conclusion to come to and in my opinion, overstated. The media jumps on that story and most go with the momentum.

[Galen Sevinne]

Let's express it mathematically. The concern is our team has a few players, let's call them 'stars,' who preen and strut and sort of do there own thing. You can like them, or approve of their attitude, or not, but that's what they do.

I like Terrel Suggs as a player and I'm glad he's a Raven. But he preens, and gets penalties, and talks plenty. So we'll use him as our example.

Players interact with their coaches, who act as (hopefully) some kind of force multiplier for the player, getting the most he can out of the player. Plus other constant factors such as locker room chemistry will remain constant, I'll represent that stuff with an x.

So let's do the math with two separate coaches:

(Billick * Suggs) + x

and
(Cowher * Suggs) + x

Well, you can subtract x from both
(Billick * Suggs)
(Cowher * Suggs)

and divide Suggs from each equation
(Billick)
(Cowher)

and are left with

Billick = Cowher

So there you go.

Those of you who think the team peacocks will suddenly stop being peacocks with a new HC have now been mathematically proven wrong.

dang I wish you were my algebra teacher...maybe I wouldn't have had to take it three times.

[b-more_4_Life]

Let's express it mathematically. The concern is our team has a few players, let's call them 'stars,' who preen and strut and sort of do there own thing. You can like them, or approve of their attitude, or not, but that's what they do.

So let's do the math with two separate coaches:

(Billick * Suggs) + x

and
(Cowher * Suggs) + x

Well, you can subtract x from both
(Billick * Suggs)
(Cowher * Suggs)

and divide Suggs from each equation
(Billick)
(Cowher)

and are left with

Billick = Cowher
.

Festivus

Since your such a math whiz, why dont you learn the concept of sunk cost and then you'll see how flawed your logic is.

Below is a recap of sunk cost:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost

[StingerNLG]

Ok, Stinger you want an answer I'll tell you. I've been saying since the Cincy game that this team lacks discipline and focus. You could see on that first night that Billick's Camp Med had come back to haunt us big time. And I really believe that his lax training camp has resulted in the injuries we have this year. Hell it wasnt until October that McGahee was fully in shape. Because Billick didnt want to wear him out. Give me a break!

Hold it. At what point do the.........PLAYERS.........start taking some responsibility for their own actions? How as a head coach can you anticipate Bart Scott throwing a hissy fit in the endzone? How as a HC can you magically stop defensive players from going offsides and making illegal contact on the field? I thought the defense LOVED Rex Ryan?? So why are they doing this to Rex? Because of Billick??



So whose the coach I want that will instill discipline and focus....Bill Cowher!

Now some of you guys cant deal with the fact that he was the Stillers coach. Big F'n Deal do you guys want to consistently win or do you want to continue this BS of one year up one year down under Billick?

Hahahaha. Let me ask you this B. Bill Cowher for all his greatness was with the organization 15-16 years right?

How long did it take Bill Cowher to win a Super Bowl? Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

[festivus]

:rolleyes: I've been educated by bmore4life.

Sunk cost has nothing to do with it. You have a coach who, over his career, has been successful by just about any reasonable standard.

He won't be fired after one bad year. We have had other mediocre years, and other successful years. But we have had only one bad year.

And the offense, despite the complete lack of $$$ spent on that side of the ball, has had some success three of those years, in 01, 04, and 06. Flashy? No. But an offense nonetheless, despite the lack of personnel.

I hope BB stays, and I think he will, for reasons having nothing to do with 'sunk cost'. For more information, see wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Baltimore_Ravens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Baltimore_Ravens).

[ClericBlackDave]

In any case, there are few instance around the league of "new" head coaches really sticking with a team. Teams that dump a coach are usually in for a coaching carosel until they find a good one, which takes a couple of years.


Look at the Raiders. They let go of Jon Gruden, and who has been their coach since then? A Billion people.


Bad teams like the lions have been through so many head coaches, proven and otherwise, its laughable.


The Niners get rid of Marriucci and what happens? I see Mike Nolan REALLY fixed their ship.




Why do you think the Eagirls won't get rid of Andy Reid despite the fact that his house is officially a crack-den / crackhouse and his sons are in jail, and their team is doing shitty?


Because the reality is Andy Reid has a track record, and isn't going to run for the hills like a Petrino. Neither will Brian Billick.


Thats what we have. A coach who's got a track record and willing to tough it out. With this many injured players, and this much talent, do you really turn this franchise into "rebuilding" mode and give it over to some random new coach?


No. What you probably should do it what Bisciotti is doing. You let Billick have at it one more year, and see what happens.

[Greg]

The math exercise was a comparison to Billick and Cowher and had nothing to do with costs, so to continue with the "sunk cost" take was a bad tangent.

Billick needs a game manager, somebody to call the plays and handle the clock. He is not good at making decisions under stress, which is why we often piss TOs away in the middle of drives, he needs the time to think things out.

Billick is a very good manager, organizer, and motivator, and should be retained to manage the team but not run the game. This should be Bisciotti's directive to him, hire somebody to run the offense and manage the clock during the game.

[btownraven]

On offense, outside of Jamal Lewis in his heyday, Ogden when he could cut it, and maybe Todd Heap when he can stay on the field just how many "stars" have we ever had? I can't think of one.
Priest Holmes, Derek Anderson, and Brandon Stokeley were found by Ozzie Newsome, misused or underutilized by Billick, and had great success after leaving the Ravens.

[HoustonRaven]

Priest Holmes, Derek Anderson, and Brandon Stokeley were found by Ozzie Newsome, misused or underutilized by Billick, and had great success after leaving the Ravens.

DA has had one good year so his success is yet to be determined. And Stoakley??? He is good at two things, being hurt and being a number 3 receiver at best.

[btownraven]

Let's express it mathematically. The concern is our team has a few players, let's call them 'stars,' who preen and strut and sort of do there own thing. You can like them, or approve of their attitude, or not, but that's what they do.

I like Terrel Suggs as a player and I'm glad he's a Raven. But he preens, and gets penalties, and talks plenty. So we'll use him as our example.

Players interact with their coaches, who act as (hopefully) some kind of force multiplier for the player, getting the most he can out of the player. Plus other constant factors such as locker room chemistry will remain constant, I'll represent that stuff with an x.

So let's do the math with two separate coaches:

(Billick * Suggs) + x

and
(Cowher * Suggs) + x

Well, you can subtract x from both
(Billick * Suggs)
(Cowher * Suggs)

and divide Suggs from each equation
(Billick)
(Cowher)

and are left with

Billick = Cowher

So there you go.

Those of you who think the team peacocks will suddenly stop being peacocks with a new HC have now been mathematically proven wrong.

:187734:

Since Suggs has never played for Cowher you have no idea how he would perform. And I could care less how individual players perform - it's how the team performs. Look at AD's stats with the Pats compared to the Ravens. Where do you think he'd rather be right now?

[btownraven]

DA has had one good year so his success is yet to be determined.

True, but it's a better year than ANY QB has had under Billick.


And Stoakley??? He is good at two things, being hurt and being a number 3 receiver at best.

Again true, but the Colts figured that out and got a ton more out of him than the Ravens did.

My point is that the Ravens have had offensive talent under Billick - he has done a poor job of properly using it.

[btownraven]

Billick needs a game manager, somebody to call the plays and handle the clock. He is not good at making decisions under stress, which is why we often piss TOs away in the middle of drives, he needs the time to think things out.
So what does Billick do on game day? Watch from home? Prepare his post-game remarks to the media? Eat?


Billick is a very good manager, organizer, and motivator***, and should be retained to manage the team but not run the game. This should be Bisciotti's directive to him, hire somebody to run the offense and manage the clock during the game.
***When the team is an underdog or need to prove something. When the team is a favorite or has high expectations, his teams tend to underachieve (please see '04, '05, '07).

[Galen Sevinne]

Priest Holmes, Derek Anderson, and Brandon Stokeley were found by Ozzie Newsome, misused or underutilized by Billick, and had great success after leaving the Ravens.

1. So you would have kept Priest Holmes over Jamal after the 2000 season?

2. Stokely! Stokely! you kidding me... Stokely??? (Jim Mora's voice)

3. I think everyone missed it on Anderson but that wasn't soley Billick's decision...and that still has to play out for a bit longer.

[btownraven]

Hold it. At what point do the.........PLAYERS.........start taking some responsibility for their own actions? How as a head coach can you anticipate Bart Scott throwing a hissy fit in the endzone? How as a HC can you magically stop defensive players from going offsides and making illegal contact on the field?

By establishing known and serious consequences for those actions. That's kind of the job of the coach. I know I had certain coaches where my focus was a lot better because I didn't want to deal with the consequences of doing something stupid. Do you see the Patriots having those issues?


How long did it take Bill Cowher to win a Super Bowl?

That's a GREAT way to measure a coach. That makes Don McCaffrey (1st year) and Barry Switzer (2nd year) better coaches than Don Shula (9th year), Tony Dungy (11th year), or Bill Belichick (7th year). Since McCaffrey probably isn't available we need to keep Billick, unless we can get Switzer to give up his TV gig.

[Greg]

Priest Holmes, Derek Anderson, and Brandon Stokeley (sic) were found by Ozzie Newsome, misused or underutilized by Billick, and had great success after leaving the Ravens.
Priest Holmes was called the 5th best back in the AFC Central in 1999, by Ozzie Newsome. Derek Anderson has played 18 games as a Brown and has a rating of 82.2, which is good but hardly great. Are you comparing Stokley here with him on the Irsays with Manning throwing to him? He had one year with 1000 yards and one with 500. His first year and next best total there was less than his last 2 years here. Even with Manning throwing to him. I love Stokley, great guy and all of that but he hardly had great success after leaving here.


So what does Billick do on game day? Watch from home? Prepare his post-game remarks to the media? Eat?
He can plan further out in the game, he can think about what should be done later in the game and plan for contigencies, just NOT make decisions in the moment. He should strategize but not call the plays. Lots of HCs do this.


When the team is an underdog or need to prove something.
They were underdogs on Sunday with a lot to prove, I'll leave it at that.

[btownraven]

So you would have kept Priest Holmes over Jamal after the 2000 season?

If Billick had properly evaluated Priest Holmes in '99 we would not have drafted Jamal Lewis. Perhaps we could have gotten Plaxico Burress at #5 and John Abraham at #10?


I think everyone missed it on Anderson but that wasn't soley Billick's decision...and that still has to play out for a bit longer.
except Phil Savage...

[HoustonRaven]

Getting back to the original point of the thread ....

The Setting Sun is making a story out of Preston's article!!! Preston says he has sources that Bisciotti is giving BB the thumbs up for next year and now they are making a sports-page headline out of it.

Think about that for a second .... Preston has undocumented sources over at 1 Winning Drive and writes about it. The Setting Sun is seeing the fuss it's causing on message boards and the like and THEN it becomes a front page storey. Now that's it big news, it gets pushed up to the front page to sell papers. Hell, even ESPN took notice. It was just all over First Take (I love being able to work from home and watch this!)

If this a case of the tail wagging the dog, I dont know what is.

Now, I definitely dont want BB back. Not because he deserves to be canned, but now I want to see The Setting Sun get yet another big black eye.

[RavenFanatic2k6]

I'll believe it when I hear Bisciotti say it. I don't see how this decision is set in stone yet. Losing to Miami and finishing the season on a 10 game losing streak, 0-6 in the division, can change things in a hurry.

Bad decision all around. The team needs to get blown up, including the coach. The team as it is right now is a 6-10 at best team next year.

[festivus]

Btownraven, I admit you have shown my mathematical proof was not, technically, complete. I yield to your superior skills at mathematics.


:187734:

Since Suggs has never played for Cowher you have no idea how he would perform. And I could care less how individual players perform - it's how the team performs. Look at AD's stats with the Pats compared to the Ravens. Where do you think he'd rather be right now?

Is this a trick question?

Let me think.

I think I figured it out.

Saint Barts!

Am I right?

Btown, your arguments are much better served when you direct them to those in this thread who are taking you seriously. Though I'll be glad to play ping pong like this for awhile, if you want.

[Rochardrik]

I'll believe it when I hear Bisciotti say it. I don't see how this decision is set in stone yet. Losing to Miami and finishing the season on a 10 game losing streak, 0-6 in the division, can change things in a hurry.

Bad decision all around. The team needs to get blown up, including the coach. The team as it is right now is a 6-10 at best team next year.

Here, you need a drink!:beer:

[Fanman]

This is the 2nd major mistake by SB. The first was giving BB the contact extension last year and now this is even worse.

FM

[b-more_4_Life]

Well it looks like me, b-town and 2kfan along with some others on this board aren't the only ones who think that Bisciotti is making a serious mistake by bringing back Billick.

See below on TL's thoughts:

http://ravens24x7.blogspot.com/2007/12/bringing-back-billick-makes-ravens.html


I couldn't have said it better. Way to ruin my Christmas, Bisciotti!

[Galen Sevinne]

If Billick had properly evaluated Priest Holmes in '99 we would not have drafted Jamal Lewis. Perhaps we could have gotten Plaxico Burress at #5 and John Abraham at #10?...

Billick does not make these decisions in a vacuum. If you are critical of Billick for this choice then you also have to be critical of Ozzie and at that time, Savage and his staff.

Plus, if you can make an argument that Plaxico would have been a great #5 pick of the draft, I am listening.



except Phil Savage...

except Phil Savage wasn't part of the TEAM that made a decision to try to hide Anderson on the practice squad. Again, if you think Billick made this decision in a vacuum, you are wrong.

Your angle here is really being more critical of Ozzie than Billick.

[btownraven]

Billick does not make these decisions in a vacuum. If you are critical of Billick for this choice then you also have to be critical of Ozzie and at that time, Savage and his staff. Your angle here is really being more critical of Ozzie than Billick.

That's a fair point. Ozzie deserves some of the blame here. My frustration is that we make these big errors more often on the offensive side of the ball than the defensive side since Billick has been the coach. Billick claims that he's not very involved with the defensive side. They've been great since he's been there in both talent choice, development, and performance. Billick is involved on the offensive side. They've been mediocre to lousy since '99. Yes, more money has been invested on the defensive side but Billick has not made the most with what he has had.


except Phil Savage wasn't part of the TEAM that made a decision to try to hide Anderson on the practice squad.

No, he was on the team that signed him after we cut him. That's my point.

[festivus]

Yes, more money has been invested on the defensive side but Billick has not made the most with what he has had.

So you say, but I'm not sure that's the case. I think the FO - in conjunction with Billick, but the FO - has brought through a string of variously poor - mediocre quarterbacks. So running the ball through all of 04, and using only a short passing attack in 06, were *exactly* making the most with what he had.

But assuming for a moment I agree with you.

By your argument Billick is capable of running a team when he has adequate support, in the form of a DC. The offense has struggled. Why not give him a *real* OC? Not a college coach, but a pro?

I don't know what the deal was with Cavanaugh, but I do know Fassel was canned for laziness and ineffectiveness, and Neuheisel has no relevant job experience for preparing an NFL-level offensive scheme. If he *could* be OC, he *would* be. If Billick is a good manager - in your argument, for the defense - then bring him an OC!

I don't think what you're describing in the end, that BB could not "make the most out of" inadequate talent on offense, when he's not even offensive coordinator, sounds like a firing offense.

As I've said elsewhere, after this train wreck of a season the FO should do whatever it needs to. These arguments are fine for us, looking at the tip of the iceberg, but obviously the decision will be made on what happens behind closed doors at 1 Winning Drive.

:2c:

[btownraven]

By your argument Billick is capable of running a team when he has adequate support, in the form of a DC. The offense has struggled. Why not give him a *real* OC? Not a college coach, but a pro?

I don't know what the deal was with Cavanaugh, but I do know Fassel was canned for laziness and ineffectiveness, and Neuheisel has no relevant job experience for preparing an NFL-level offensive scheme. If he *could* be OC, he *would* be. If Billick is a good manager - in your argument, for the defense - then bring him an OC!

I don't think what you're describing in the end, that BB could not "make the most out of" inadequate talent on offense, when he's not even offensive coordinator, sounds like a firing offense.

As I've said elsewhere, after this train wreck of a season the FO should do whatever it needs to. These arguments are fine for us, looking at the tip of the iceberg, but obviously the decision will be made on what happens behind closed doors at 1 Winning Drive.

:2c:

I think Bisciotti is going to require an independent OC. But that's not my only problem with Billick. I'm tired of the lack of discipline, poor clock management, and this trend of underachieving that we've seen for 3 of the last 4 years. One of Billick's biggest strengths is supposed to be motivation but yet it only seems to work when the expectations are lower.

I loved Billick his first few years. His cocky attitude was what this franchise desperately needed when he got here and I think he was the PERFECT coach for the Super Bowl team. But as time has gone on the team no longer responds to him the way it used to. That's neutralized his greatest strength and has exposed his weaknesses (discipline, clock management, X's & O's). I just don't think he can win the Super Bowl here anymore. And that's the Ravens' stated goal.

Billick belongs in the Ring of Honor and has earned his place in Baltimore football history. He could still be successful in the NFL - especially a place that has been down for a while. But I don't think his message resonates with the Ravens anymore.

[BigAl69]

Billick must be FIRED!!!! PERIOD!!! FULL STOP!!! What good comes of bringing in an OC? Is there anything that leads you to believe that our arrogant, blowhard of coach with his king sized ego would not interfere with his calls in crucial moments???? Every year our offense has been abysmal under Billick. People point to injuries and quarterback play..... I have just watched the Houston Texans torch the Broncos with SAGE ROSENFELS at QB and Ron Dayne at RB!!!!! Aside from Andre Johnson who on the Texans would start for the Ravens on offense?!?!? Brian Billick is the same coach who a couple of years ago on our HOME FIELD with 1:38 left before halftime with 2 timeouts left TOOK A KNEE and ran out the clock!! Are you kidding me??? He sucks!!! The only reason he didn't get fired two seasons ago was because Kirk Ferentz wouldn't leave Iowa. My take is.... if Biscotti was willing to fire him at all.... he should have gone with that. I never thought I would see the day....... but I am doing everything short of PRAYING that the Ravens not only lose the rest of there games but get embarressed so that there is ABSOLUTELY no excuse for keeping this bum. 14 qb's, we fired cavanaugh and Fassel, changed the O line, got new recievers... yet we still can't score!!!We have wasted some of the finest defense ever assembled in the nfl!!! WHEN IS IT ENOUGH?!?!?:thumbdown: :bag: :187734: :ralph:

[AZRAVEN]

I think Bisciotti is going to require an independent OC. But that's not my only problem with Billick. I'm tired of the lack of discipline, poor clock management, and this trend of underachieving that we've seen for 3 of the last 4 years. One of Billick's biggest strengths is supposed to be motivation but yet it only seems to work when the expectations are lower.

I loved Billick his first few years. His cocky attitude was what this franchise desperately needed when he got here and I think he was the PERFECT coach for the Super Bowl team. But as time has gone on the team no longer responds to him the way it used to. That's neutralized his greatest strength and has exposed his weaknesses (discipline, clock management, X's & O's). I just don't think he can win the Super Bowl here anymore. And that's the Ravens' stated goal.

Billick belongs in the Ring of Honor and has earned his place in Baltimore football history. He could still be successful in the NFL - especially a place that has been down for a while. But I don't think his message resonates with the Ravens anymore.


Could the problem be that the "cocky attitude" you so loved in Billick before has spread to the players and that is why they know longer listen to him - or anyone else for that matter. If he is the dismal failure you proclaim him to be I fail to see why you think he should be in the Ring of Honor.

[darb72]

I think Billick is coming back barring us losing to Miami. They are without a doubt the worst team the NFL has seen since the expansion Buccaneers.

It's money. SB isn't going to fire Billick a year after handing him a sizeable contract extension.

Now do I want to see Billick gone? Yes, if a good replacement can be found. Change for the sake of change is dumb, just look at the Chargers this year. Something has got to change in this system though. Two games we've blown because Billick, for some reason, chooses not to run the ball on third-and-one late in the game. I don't care if it's Boller or Brady back there, that call is a dive up the gut 100% of the time.

[highwater]

I think Billick is coming back barring us losing to Miami.

That's probably right -- in spite of what the Sun's "sources" say, I don't think Bisciotti is making a definite decision on Billick until the season ends. At this point he might be inclined to bring Billick back, but if we lose to an 0-13 team, he might reconsider.

We'll have to wait and see. Although this season is lost, these last three games will play a role in what the team's future is. They aren't meaningless.

[Greg]

If Billick had properly evaluated Priest Holmes in '99 we would not have drafted Jamal Lewis. Perhaps we could have gotten Plaxico Burress at #5 and John Abraham at #10?
AGAIN, THIS WAS OZZIE'S CALL, OZZIE CALLED PRIEST HOLMES THE 5TH BEST BACK ON OUR DIVISION IN 1999! Are you going to just ignore this?

Beyond that, ifs and buts . . .


Way to ruin my Christmas, Bisciotti!
If this has any effect in your real life you are in need of one.

Just sayin'.

[ClericBlackDave]

Change for the sake of change is silly. Only fans would request that.


So the key is, you need to replace Billick with someone you're SURE can sucessfully install a new offensive system here, and who won't cut-and-run after one year on the Job like a Bobby Petrino.


So who is that man? No-one knows I think.


And so there is the issue. The league has run low on quality coaches who will stick it out here rather than cut-and-run to college.


And so do you REALLY want to start the coaching Carosel going again when we haven't even gotten the QB carosel stopped yet?


The answer from most fans seems to be "yes" simply because they dislike Billick so much. But that is silly, considering the man with some help from Ozzie Newsome turned the fortunes of this franchise around.


BTW, I love the fact that Newsome seems to get no blame for personel decisions despite the fact that he is in charge of all of them.

[festivus]

Billick must be FIRED!!!! PERIOD!!! FULL STOP!!! What good comes of bringing in an OC? Is there anything that leads you to believe that our arrogant, blowhard of coach with his king sized ego would not interfere with his calls in crucial moments???? Every year our offense has been abysmal under Billick. People point to injuries and quarterback play..... I have just watched the Houston Texans torch the Broncos with SAGE ROSENFELS at QB and Ron Dayne at RB!!!!! Aside from Andre Johnson who on the Texans would start for the Ravens on offense?!?!? Brian Billick is the same coach who a couple of years ago on our HOME FIELD with 1:38 left before halftime with 2 timeouts left TOOK A KNEE and ran out the clock!! Are you kidding me??? He sucks!!! The only reason he didn't get fired two seasons ago was because Kirk Ferentz wouldn't leave Iowa. My take is.... if Biscotti was willing to fire him at all.... he should have gone with that. I never thought I would see the day....... but I am doing everything short of PRAYING that the Ravens not only lose the rest of there games but get embarressed so that there is ABSOLUTELY no excuse for keeping this bum. 14 qb's, we fired cavanaugh and Fassel, changed the O line, got new recievers... yet we still can't score!!!We have wasted some of the finest defense ever assembled in the nfl!!! WHEN IS IT ENOUGH?!?!?:thumbdown: :bag: :187734: :ralph:


:ref:
WOOT!! WOOT!!

Wall of text. Number 69 Offense. Run on sentences with irregular punctuation and spasmodic use of capitalization. Fifteen yards, loss of down.

[HoustonRaven]

:ref:
WOOT!! WOOT!!

Wall of text. Number 69 Offense. Run on sentences with irregular punctuation and spasmodic use of capitalization. Fifteen yards, loss of down.

spasmodic .... :rolling:

[StingerNLG]

:ref:
WOOT!! WOOT!!

Wall of text. Number 69 Offense. Run on sentences with irregular punctuation and spasmodic use of capitalization. Fifteen yards, loss of down.

:thumbup:

That got my weekend off right Festivus! Thank you!!

[festivus]

Yeah, after last time I remembered to throw in the loss of down. The devil's in the details, as they say. :)

[b-more_4_Life]

So just a question for all you Billick lovers, if we change Offensive coordinators and hire a coach to handle the clock like Baltimore Greg wants and we still suck next year THEN will you be calling for his head?

Although I'm still trying to figure out exactly Billick's use to the team if we hire coaches for both of these activities. I guess he can just give the post game review of "We're gonna work on it and these men worked hard" crap. Oh and dont forget the one of "That's for you guys (media) to talk about." And one more "Kyle Boller is my starting QB for Life."

Or will you still be citing his career record, Super Bowl win and still want him around?

Even though the franchise hasnt won a playoff game since 2001.

What the hell does it take for you guys to want Billick gone?

And a donut goes to the first person who says we were 13-3 last year so he has to stay!

Just sayin'

[purplepoe]

Change for the sake of change is silly. Only fans would request that.


So the key is, you need to replace Billick with someone you're SURE can sucessfully install a new offensive system here, and who won't cut-and-run after one year on the Job like a Bobby Petrino.


So who is that man? No-one knows I think.


And so there is the issue. The league has run low on quality coaches who will stick it out here rather than cut-and-run to college.


And so do you REALLY want to start the coaching Carosel going again when we haven't even gotten the QB carosel stopped yet?


The answer from most fans seems to be "yes" simply because they dislike Billick so much. But that is silly, considering the man with some help from Ozzie Newsome turned the fortunes of this franchise around.


BTW, I love the fact that Newsome seems to get no blame for personel decisions despite the fact that he is in charge of all of them.

What are you talking about?

Petrino isn't some number in a long list. It's a rarity.

It's not some epidemic at all.

In the last 20 years or so there's only been a handful that have quit after a year or 2 to go back to college. In fact, I can only think of 3. Petrino, Saban, and Spurrier. Guys like Butch Davis stuck around for 4 years. Now, are college coaches that jump to the NFL successful? Absolutely not and I don't advocate the Ravens ever going that route.

The majority of coaches that leave jobs are fired. They don't quit.

And I got news for you. Any time a franchise hires a coach they do it hoping that coach will install and successful offense and/or defense. You cannot be "sure" of anything. Great coaches have gone to teams and failed. And not so great coaches have won Super Bowls (Switzer for example).

The league has run low on quality players, especially at key positions. It's not just an issue of the quality of the coach. You gotta have the horses to run first in the race.

And Ozzie Newsome certainly bears some of the blame from me.

PP

[festivus]

So just a question for all you Billick lovers, if we change Offensive coordinators and hire a coach to handle the clock like Baltimore Greg wants and we still suck next year THEN will you be calling for his head?
Concerning the clock, most fans complain about how their coaches handle the clock. They just do. I remember Herm Edwards hiring a special coach in New York for just such a purpose, and (according to the fans) continuing to screw up clock management anyway.

What I will do next year is the same thing I do every year. Take an even handed look at what's gone on. It's not an 'innocent until proven guilty' standard, if that's what you're getting at. If it looks like it's probably time to replace the HC, then that's what I would want to do.


Although I'm still trying to figure out exactly Billick's use to the team if we hire coaches for both of these activities. I guess he can just give the post game review of "We're gonna work on it and these men worked hard" crap. Oh and dont forget the one of "That's for you guys (media) to talk about." And one more "Kyle Boller is my starting QB for Life."
This paragraph is a lot to chew on, most of it not really relevant to your argument. The short answer is, a head coach with an OC and a DC will have the responsibility for, ummmmm, being head coach. I know we're kind of unfamiliar with that here, but it's pretty common around the league, by which I mean, that's what everybody else does.

Concerning your criticism of Billick's post-game remarks. I find it amazing fans don't like how he talks to the media and fans. You all need to understand there is not, I don't think, a single more communicative head coach in the *entire* *league*. Obviously he's not going to give away secrets, or talk frankly about injuries, or throw anybody under the bus. But he routinely talks to the media and to the fans, which is more than you can say for (guessing here, but I think I'm right) thirty one other head coaches in the NFL.

Finally, concerning his attachment to Boller, I find this statement very amusing in the same season he's been widely criticized for refusing to bench McNair.

Brian Billick wants to WIN, and anybody who disagrees with that is just plain wrong. Changing qb's, changing his coaching staff, he has, will, and would do any of those things and more to WIN.


Or will you still be citing his career record, Super Bowl win and still want him around?

Even though the franchise hasnt won a playoff game since 2001.

What the hell does it take for you guys to want Billick gone?

And a donut goes to the first person who says we were 13-3 last year so he has to stay!

Just sayin'

Just repeatin'. You are advocating change notwithstanding that the team has been relatively successful, even very recently, under Billick. This year they had a rash of injuries and surprisingly poor play from the QB position. Last year they were 13-3 (yes, I'll take that doughnut) and made it to the playoffs, where our QB played like crap and we lost to an inspired future-champ Colts team.

I'm not going to do what you want me to do, which is give him no credit for winning, and defense, and all the blame for the only-occasionally-successful offense.

Sorry!

[Greg]

So just a question for all you Billick lovers, if we change Offensive coordinators and hire a coach to handle the clock like Baltimore Greg wants and we still suck next year THEN will you be calling for his head?
I'll call for Billick's head when I think it will improve the team, until then I won't. The same person who is the OC can also handle the clock, we need somebody who thinks better on their feet.

When considering this arena of skill there are two types of people. One is the person who thinks on their feet and can consistently make good decisions in a little time under great pressure. This is NOT Billick.

Then there are people who can organize and plan to the finest detail when you give them time. Billick is a completely anal planner and organizer, maybe the best in the NFL and it is his strong suit (the players said as much when Fassel was let go, the planning was WAY better). He should head up planning and organizing things and map out strategies for certain situations with his coordinators. But he should let somebody else, his coordinators, run the plan on game day.


Although I'm still trying to figure out exactly Billick's use to the team if we hire coaches for both of these activities. I guess he can just give the post game review of "We're gonna work on it and these men worked hard" crap. Oh and dont forget the one of "That's for you guys (media) to talk about." And one more "Kyle Boller is my starting QB for Life."
If we are going to have a good discussion perhaps you can put away the hyperbole. Billick started McNair last year and continued to start him this year well past it being painfully obvious that he was done. How does that work with your Kyle Boller take? Beyond that the rest of this was answered above.


Or will you still be citing his career record, Super Bowl win and still want him around?
No, and if you had been reading along for the last several weeks you would know he has skills and abilities that many others don't. He does have a winning record, you know, and previous to him coming here the Ravens were far from a winning organization. Add that he is a winner to the above qualities of planning and organization.


Even though the franchise hasnt won a playoff game since 2001.
McNair crapped the bed last year and he had Anthony freaking Wright as his playoff QB in 2003, does that matter at all?


What the hell does it take for you guys to want Billick gone?
Proof that this will make the Ravens better, which you have yet to produce.

[btownraven]

Could the problem be that the "cocky attitude" you so loved in Billick before has spread to the players and that is why they know longer listen to him - or anyone else for that matter.

Yes it is. Which is why it is time for a change. Billick himself said that NFL coaches have a shelf life of about 10 years. The attitude that was so badly needed when Billick got here has gone overboard & is now counterproductive. I think Billick knew that when he made the 10 year shelf life comment. The Ravens need more of a disciplinarian now and Billick either can't or doesn't have the credibility now to do it.


If he is the dismal failure you proclaim him to be I fail to see why you think he should be in the Ring of Honor.

Based on the fact the Ravens have underachieved 3 of the last 4 years, I no longer think the Ravens can win the Super Bowl with Billick as coach. I never said he was a dismal failure - in fact I said that he was the PERFECT coach for the Super Bowl Champion Ravens. His recent struggles and the fact that I don't think he's the right coach for the Ravens moving forward doesn't take away from what he has accomplished and what he has meant to Baltimore NFL history.

[RustonRifle]

Well it looks like me, b-town and 2kfan along with some others on this board aren't the only ones who think that Bisciotti is making a serious mistake by bringing back Billick.

See below on TL's thoughts:

http://ravens24x7.blogspot.com/2007/12/bringing-back-billick-makes-ravens.html


I couldn't have said it better. Way to ruin my Christmas, Bisciotti!


Insiders see things and get stories from their contacts that often isn't reported.

TL raises some good points in his stories as always.

What coordinator worth a salt is going to want to come here and work under these conditions?:229031_confused2:


I believe Billick is a dead man walking. How long he's going to be employed by the Ravens is up to Biscotti. I believe next season is the last we'll see of his sorry offense.

[festivus]

Insiders see things and get stories from their contacts that often isn't reported.

No disrespect to TL, but he's not the only 'insider' discussing this point, and of the insiders who I respect, he's the only one to advocate this position.


What coordinator worth a salt is going to want to come here and work under these conditions?

One who wants to work for a HC who is generally well liked by his players and staff, and will not throw them under the bus, and one who wants to be on a team that more often than not is highly competitive. One who has received an assurance that he will be able to install his own system, and make a big difference on a team with a lot of talent already in place.

That one.

edit: If Biscotti thought they couldn't attract a decent OC with Billick as head coach, then Billick will indeed be fired. Because that would be an untenable position. But all reports seem to indicate the contrary - Billick is returning - which suggests you & Mr. B disagree on whether an OC can be found.

[b-more_4_Life]

Insiders see things and get stories from their contacts that often isn't reported.

TL raises some good points in his stories as always.

What coordinator worth a salt is going to want to come here and work under these conditions?:229031_confused2:


I believe Billick is a dead man walking. How long he's going to be employed by the Ravens is up to Biscotti. I believe next season is the last we'll see of his sorry offense.


Ruston I'll add you to the sane Ravens fan that see Billick has lost his voice for this team. This team lacks discipline and needs a head coach who instills this in his players.

Others feel that its most important that we have a coach that is organized but yet cant ever figure out how to properly organize an offense or have his TEAM organized in a 2 minute situation.

[festivus]

Ruston I'll add you to the sane Ravens fan that see Billick has lost his voice for this team. This team lacks discipline and needs a head coach who instills this in his players.

Others feel that its most important that we have a coach that is organized but yet cant ever figure out how to properly organize an offense or have his TEAM organized in a 2 minute situation.

BMore that's what the offensive coordinator is supposed to do.

That's why I want one, and that's why I think we're going to get one, to whom Brian can (will, must) delegate just as he's delegated the defense to the DC.

Remember Billick wants to win. If he is told the team will open the piggy bank to attract an absolute top flight OC, and Brian must keep his hands out of the offensive cookie jar, he'll do it. Because he wants to win. He's no fool, and I'm sure he's more tired of losing than any of us.

We're starting to go in circles, so with these points, I bow out.

:2c:

[HoustonRaven]

Wait a second ....

Unless something else has been reported, these "sources" are basically Preston's report and that’s it.

Preston has the same accuracy rate of a blind squirrel.

[Galen Sevinne]

So just a question for all you Billick lovers, if we change Offensive coordinators and hire a coach to handle the clock like Baltimore Greg wants and we still suck next year THEN will you be calling for his head?

Although I'm still trying to figure out exactly Billick's use to the team if we hire coaches for both of these activities. I guess he can just give the post game review of "We're gonna work on it and these men worked hard" crap. Oh and dont forget the one of "That's for you guys (media) to talk about." And one more "Kyle Boller is my starting QB for Life."

Or will you still be citing his career record, Super Bowl win and still want him around?

Even though the franchise hasnt won a playoff game since 2001.

What the hell does it take for you guys to want Billick gone?

And a donut goes to the first person who says we were 13-3 last year so he has to stay!

Just sayin'

I don't think any of us in support of another year for billick are "Billick lovers" or at least just speaking for myself, I am not a "Billick lover". I think it is a knee jerk reaction to fire him after a bad year where there were so many extraneous variables that were really out the control of a head coach. I don't support him in the role of offensive coordinator but do as a head coach.

There are subtleties in arguments that sometimes people don't or refuse to see. Because I don't hate Billick and want him FIRED!!!!!! doesn't necessarily mean I love him and think he is the greatest coach of all time. He has deficits for sure but also a lot of strengths and should be given another year.

[4G63]

Man, if their is one good thing about bad seasons its that there's so much to talk about....

[b-more_4_Life]

Just repeatin'. You are advocating change notwithstanding that the team has been relatively successful, even very recently, under Billick.



If you consider success missing the playoffs 3 out the past 4 years then you must have really low standards to be successful. :rolling:

Along with ONE playoff victory since 2001!

Can we at least agree that Bisciotti made a serious mistake giving Billick a 4 year contract extension last year. The reason being that Billick has always achieved better results when not much was expected of him. Thus, a one or 2 yr deal would've been better for the organization.

Or are you such a Billick lover that you cant even concede that point?

[4G63]

I don't think any of us in support of another year for billick are "Billick lovers" or at least just speaking for myself, I am not a "Billick lover". I think it is a knee jerk reaction to fire him after a bad year where there were so many extraneous variables that were really out the control of a head coach. I don't support him in the role of offensive coordinator but do as a head coach.

There are subtleties in arguments that sometimes people don't or refuse to see. Because I don't hate Billick and want him FIRED!!!!!! doesn't necessarily mean I love him and think he is the greatest coach of all time. He has deficits for sure but also a lot of strengths and should be given another year.

I agree with this as I don't hate him as a coach, but I'm not so sure we'd find someone better for the spot. If, and its a big "IF", we get a OC that has FULL control of playcalling, I would see Billick being here the whole 4 years....

[festivus]

Or are you such a Billick lover that you cant even concede that point?

I agree with Greg. You need to tone down the hyperbole, it makes it unnecessarily difficult to have a dialogue.

I consider making the playoffs 4/9 years and winning one SB to be a good resume for a HC. I do. You conveniently count playoff 'wins', as did the Chargers when they canned Marty last year. As if making the playoffs isn't good enough. So they brought in Norv Turner. Ask the Chargers fans if they wouldn't rather have a trip to the playoffs with the possibility of a loss with Marty, now that Marty Ball is gone.

I'm not a 'Billick lover.' I'm a Ravens fan, trying to keep my head on straight when I'm surrounded by hysterical fans who think the Ravens world has ended because we haven't won a Super Bowl since 2000, and we've had one, count 'em ONE, truly bad year since.

Ok, I'm moving on, go ahead and take the last word.

[4G63]

I'm not a 'Billick lover.' I'm a Ravens fan, trying to keep my head on straight when I'm surrounded by hysterical fans who think the Ravens world has ended because we haven't won a Super Bowl since 2000, and we've had one, count 'em ONE, truly bad year since.

Ok, I'm moving on, go ahead and take the last word.

I think thats the key! We've had a shitty year in all aspects of the game and to just fire Billick with all that has happened would be crazy. Now if we have a healthy team next year, with Heap and Williams playing the whole year and we end up 8-8 and Billick's the one making the offensive calls, then the argument for firing him has legs....regardless if Boller is the starter or not....

[b-more_4_Life]

I agree with Greg. You need to tone down the hyperbole, it makes it unnecessarily difficult to have a dialogue.

I consider making the playoffs 4/9 years and winning one SB to be a good resume for a HC. I do. You conveniently count playoff 'wins', as did the Chargers when they canned Marty last year. As if making the playoffs isn't good enough. So they brought in Norv Turner. Ask the Chargers fans if they wouldn't rather have a trip to the playoffs with the possibility of a loss with Marty, now that Marty Ball is gone.

I'm not a 'Billick lover.' I'm a Ravens fan, trying to keep my head on straight when I'm surrounded by hysterical fans who think the Ravens world has ended because we haven't won a Super Bowl since 2000, and we've had one, count 'em ONE, truly bad year since.

Ok, I'm moving on, go ahead and take the last word.

I'm so tired of hearing the comparison to the Chargers if we fire Billick. Are you kidding me? You really believe Newsome would hire a known bum like Norv Turner. Give me a break. You must not have much trust in our Front Office!

I'm sorry you think its hyperbole for fans demanding a competent Head Coach.

And thanks for giving me the last word.

[Greg]

Others feel that its most important that we have a coach that is organized but yet cant ever figure out how to properly organize an offense or have his TEAM organized in a 2 minute situation.
You are purposely being obtuse, at least I hope it is on purpose.

I point out his skills are in planning and organizing and not on making immediate decisions during games and then you cite game decisions in an attempt to refute my take. He can plan out and organize his team for 2 minute drills ahead of time, planning for all contingencies. Then when things are happening fast he has a difficult time, apparently, in making decisions. He doesn't do well durning the flow of the game.

You won't capitulate on any point and resort to arguing with points I am not making, so this discussion is apparently over.

[Galen Sevinne]

The only thing a thread like this accomplishes is to distinguish which side of the fence each poster is on...support Billick side or fire billick side.

I doubt anyone's opinion is going to change and this is mostly because those who want Billick fired are of a lower intelligence caste. :insane:

[b-more_4_Life]

I doubt anyone's opinion is going to change and this is mostly because those who want Billick fired are of a lower intelligence caste. :insane:

So you're calling the owner of this site dumb? Very classy :grbac:

Those of us that want Billick fired see that he has lost his voice with this team. We also see that this team needs a lot more than an independent offensive coordinator. It needs someone to:

1. Enforce discipline
2. Stop the constant penalties
3. Have Game (X's & O's) management skills
4. Have Clock Management skills
5. Is able to overcome injuries like Great Coaches do (i.e., Dungy & Belichick)
5. Stop the one year up one year down trend

You guys think all of these things can be outsourced to some magical offensive coordinator. I'd love to be proven wrong but I just dont see Billick ever taking us to the promise land again.

And the promise land is winning the Super Bowl.

Some of you are just happy to make the playoffs. Hell, with Billick we havent even made the playoffs 3 out of the last 4 years!

With our scouting department and Front office we deserve a Great Head coach not a mediocre one.

And Greg, thanks for calling me obtuse! :laugh:

[HoustonRaven]

I doubt anyone's opinion is going to change and this is mostly because those who want Billick fired are of a lower intelligence caste. :insane:

And you know you have someone mentally whipped when they resort to personal attacks instead of facts.

Tweet!!! Flag on the Play ....

Improper use of the word caste (and the English language in general), 15 yard penalty and instructed to tell everyone what in the hell a religious connotation has anything to do with intelligence :insane:

[BertJonesMyHero]

Knee jerk? He has had plenty of time to fix our numerous 'issues.'
And people that want a new coach are idiots? Nice.

<<< I think Bisciotti knows a bit more about business than you, he started in a basement and made himself a billionaire.

So what. It has been proven 200 times over that successful business people can often make terrible sports owners. Must I go through the list? Strike 1 was the 4 year extension. Strike 2 is to ignore the current team culture BB has allowed to grow into a monster.

This best be followed by another public flogging after the last game. That is the only thing coach know it all responds to.

[ladyraven127]

I can't decide what I want to happen. I'm a waffler.

This much I do have an opinion on. When an owner calls out a coach in public because players are whining, then we wonder why that coach can not discipline a team, I wonder what we thought was going to happen.

How's that for a sentence :eek:

[BertJonesMyHero]

No clue what you mean:) but last time he did it,we went 13-3.Despite Drew whining that BB had bee disrespected for 3 solid months.

[ladyraven127]

Instead of waffling I believe I would rather be wassling (I'm sure that's spelled wrong). It is the holiday season you know :beer1:

[copenhaggard]

My biggest problem really is the attitude of the team, and lack of discipline.

Bringing in a good OC, and instructing Billick to GTFOff the playbook would take care of the two minute drills, and some other offensive problems.

The problem is how the team as a whole responds to Billick. The penalties, and lack of discipline should be punished. The team attitude as a whole lost it's toughness this year, it's killer instinct. The Ravens weren't badasses this year.

For a defensive team, we suck in the harsh weather conditions. The team gets babied too much.

Mental, emotional, and physical discipline win football games. The team is lacking it, and they aren't being punished.

Some of the shit I see would NEVER stand on any of my football teams. I don't care if what level of football you are playing; football is football. Every sport no matter what level has a right/wrong way to play. The Ravens aren't playing a winning brand of football. Billick is not getting his message to his players. He's not DEMANDING that they respect the game, RESPECT the other team, and CONTROL themselves.

[Galen Sevinne]

So you're calling the owner of this site dumb? Very classy :grbac:


No I didn't call him dumb, I put him in a lower intelligence caste but I am betting he is smart enough to see the sarcasm in the comment..unlike you, who obviously does fit the lower intelligence caste. (hint...that's a joke again) (maybe)

and as far as being classy, I am surely not.

[Galen Sevinne]

And you know you have someone mentally whipped when they resort to personal attacks instead of facts.

Tweet!!! Flag on the Play ....

Improper use of the word caste (and the English language in general), 15 yard penalty and instructed to tell everyone what in the hell a religious connotation has anything to do with intelligence :insane:

mentally whipped??? maybe, but probably more mentally bored with this debate.

as far as thinking that caste must be used in the context of a "religious connotation", I think you need to pick up your flag and study the word a bit further. If you care to broaden your Websters dictionary understanding you will see how it can be used synonymously with subcategory and go on to define categories of race, S.E.S. and other demographic determinants...i.e. intelligence.

[HoustonRaven]

mentally whipped??? maybe, but probably more mentally bored with this debate.

as far as thinking that caste must be used in the context of a "religious connotation", I think you need to pick up your flag and study the word a bit further. If you care to broaden your Websters dictionary understanding you will see how it can be used synonymously with subcategory and go on to define categories of race, S.E.S. and other demographic determinants...i.e. intelligence.

I prefer the Old Oxford Dictionary over anyone's Wiki-facts any day of the week ... including football Sunday!

[Greg]

So what. It has been proven 200 times over that successful business people can often make terrible sports owners.
Yes, Bert, feel free to run the list. That has nothing to do with it. He was using a business analogy over and over implying that Bisciotti doesn't or might not understand "sunk cost." In this case I think Bisciotti's business sense and knowledge is applicable as I am quite sure he understands "sunk cost."