Now who STILL wants Billick back next year?

[Fanman]

I mind being the laughing stock of the NFL...a LOT.

If you want Billick back after ANOTHER emabarrassment like today you and Steve Biscotti need your heads examined.

BILLICK MUST GO!!!!!

FM

[HoustonRaven]

Dont blame Bisciotti ... yet. That "report" that he gave BB a vote of confidence was Preston and his rumors -- nothing more.

But yes, if someone still thinks BB should stay, it would amaze me.

Football 101 .... you play for the WIN!!!!!

[Fanman]

If Billick is back then SB is would then be part of the problem. I expect a lot more from a young, local owner like SB. What's it gonna be SB..sink or swim.

FM

[crazyraven]

I dont know what it is with Baltimore but for some reason there is alot of fans beating themselves up or of the mind set that its Baltimore aganist the world. Trust me after this week no one will remember this game but Baltimore

[HoustonRaven]

I dont know what it is with Baltimore but for some reason there is alot of fans beating themselves up or of the mind set that its Baltimore aganist the world. Trust me after this week no one will remember this game but Baltimore

What in the hell does that have to do with BB coming back or not?

[b-more_4_Life]

I mind being the laughing stock of the NFL...a LOT.

If you want Billick back after ANOTHER emabarrassment like today you and Steve Biscotti need your heads examined.

BILLICK MUST GO!!!!!

FM

Well Festivus does because he has a good career record and Baltimore Greg because he's a great organizer!

I for one cant believe how unprepared he has been this year. Coming off a 13-3 record, on opening night you could tell he didnt have the team ready to play this year. Others will say its injuries. But you know what when you have injuries that's when good coaching really comes out.

Unfortunately, we dont have good coaching and our owner would rather make excuses for Billick then admit he made a huge mistake giving Billick such an expensive long term contract!

[TheExtraPoint]

If the Ravens want Cowher (I bet they do), they might be willing to suck up another so-so year of Billick to get him.

[b-more_4_Life]

If the Ravens want Cowher (I bet they do), they might be willing to suck up another so-so year of Billick to get him.

And the word is that Cowher wants to sit out another year.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3157112

[Fanman]

This is a joke man....Billick sucks all the way around....his time is done. If Biscotti brings him back then he is a chump too. Who would bring back a coach that lays egg after egg and is going to go into the off season on a 10 game losing streak.....get real SB...WAKE UP!!!

FM

[festivus]

I do.

We've been ravaged by injury this year and poor play from the QB position. I would not say Billick gets a pass for this, or for anything, but as usual there is enough turd pie for everyone to get a slice.

We had 2d, 3d, and 4th stringers, hell even literally starting a practice squad guy at corner. Cornerback!

Bring in a good OC. I don't think anybody wants that now more than Billick. You may not like the result, but the team played hard, and the penalties weren't that bad today.

We are going to lose most games with both hands tied behind our backs by injury at key positions.

We just will.

Anyway you all can go jump off bridges if you want, in your hysteria. The Ravens will be fine, perhaps next year, perhaps the year after.

Standard caveat for this discussion applies: in the end, the FO's decision will be made on things happening 90% behind closed doors, that we'll never hear about. Which is why whatever they decide on is ok by me.

But I'm not going to blame Billick when our QB's have been unable to hit the side of a barn all year, and we have had *major* injuries across the board at key positions.

[Rayvens52]

at the last game we should chant FIRE BILLICK THE WHOLE GAME, maybe that will help in the decision!

[Purpleguy]

Please tell me what coach would win with our offensive line.

[Rayvens52]

or maybe our OL would play better if we didn't call bull shit calls every game

[highwater]

We've been ravaged by injury this year and poor play from the QB position. I would not say Billick gets a pass for this, or for anything, but as usual there is enough turd pie for everyone to get a slice.

I agree -- in the overtime, we did not have Pryce, arguably our best pass rushing lineman, as well as both starting cornerbacks, CMac and Rolle, and Heap, arguably our best receiver, and then during the game we lose Ray Lewis?

And all I will say about the OL is that they may become very good at some point, but right now they are so young and inexperienced that they could get ALL of our QBs killed -- we are already down to our third string QB, and while I'm happy that he's getting some playing time, I hope he doesn't get the hell beaten out of him like the first and second stringers have already.

Billick has made game-decisions that I didn't like, including today, but looking at the big picture, injuries is what has killed this team.

[Purpleguy]

or maybe our OL would play better if we didn't call bull shit calls every game

What plays are those? They can't pass block or run block. What plays do you suggest? maybe they can catch and we can make them all eligible receivers.

[Rayvens52]

This is not all the OL's fault, how many times did Boller sit in the pocket for over 5 sec holding the ball, i don't care what team it is you can not hold the ball that long, and Troy seemed to do ok back there.

[Purpleguy]

This is not all the OL's fault, how many times did Boller sit in the pocket for over 5 sec holding the ball, i don't care what team it is you can not hold the ball that long, and Troy seemed to do ok back there.

They couldn't stop a 4 man rush. That's a 5 on 4 advantage. Was Taylor wearing camo because our o-line obviously couldn't see him? Troy escaped a couple sacks do to his athleticism, but he didn't set the world on fire. It was a solid effort, but the o-line hindered him as well. This offense's woes are all on the line.

[Ravenator]

Regardless, we were in a position to win the game and Mr. Clutch Stover missed a kick. You can bitch and moan all you want about going for it on 4th and goal and if we lose you are still bitching and moaning.

[Rayvens52]

By no means am I saying our OL is great, but lets be real here, our QB play has ben shit all year, it was not the OL fault that Mcnair fumbled the ball 100 times this year, or that Boller could hit any recievers last week. Our OL needs major improvement but, we need a QB a hell of alot quicker and Troy may be that guy.

[Purpleguy]

By no means am I saying our OL is great, but lets be real here, our QB play has ben shit all year, it was not the OL fault that Mcnair fumbled the ball 100 times this year, or that Boller could hit any recievers last week. Our OL needs major improvement but, we need a QB a hell of alot quicker and Troy may be that guy.


Our o-line isn't even adequate much less great. They have given up nearly 30 sacks the past 7 games, that's not counting all of the hurries and Boller getting knocked on his ass as soon as he releases the ball. These guys could care less about protecting the QB. When Boller has time he plays great. He rarely has time, and when any QB gets knocked on their ass as much as Boller has they lose confidence. It's human nature. We don't take well to getting beat to hell. Top it off with the fact that we have receivers who are slow and can't get seperation and you have a recipe for disaster. It all starts in the trenches.

[Rayvens52]

or maybe we just run a very vanilla offense here. This has been the case for years, we are so predictable it's crazy. Seriously think about it if all of us fans know what we are running every play don't you think the guys getting paid the big bucks know. Maybe we have so many sacks and QB hurries due to the fact that nobody in the NFL respects our pass because it is pure garbage.

[HoustonRaven]

Preston is the only one reporting that BB will be back.

BB was asked before the Dolphin game to verify that he and Biscioti did indeed have a conversation. What is notable here is that BB doesnt confirm ANYTHING. If he did have that vote of confidence, the answer to the questions is "Yes", not some long-winded PC crap.

On verifying if he has met with owner Steve Bisciotti: “I’ve been as clear as I can possibly be that we have a nonstop dialogue at that level between Ozzie [Newsome], myself, Steve [Bisciotti] and Dick [Cass] about how we’re proceeding, what we’re going to do, and we’ll stay true to what we did three years ago, two years ago, this year, next year, and the year after that. We constantly have that dialogue and we’ll address all of those things at the end of the season. Right now, our focus has got to be the Miami Dolphins. And really, it’s what I’ve been saying: This team is going to come back significantly intact, and that’s the mindset we’ve had this last part of the season, a very difficult season, and that’s what we’ll have going into the last couple games. We’ll be crystal clear about it and transparent as we always are at the end of the season, but right now, we’re going forward, as I said, collectively as a team, knowing that this team is going to come back substantially intact. And, that’s what our focus is going into this game against Miami, because there are good things to draw from this game going forward, both now and afterwards.”

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/Common/Article.aspx?id=27992

[Purpleguy]

or maybe we just run a very vanilla offense here. This has been the case for years, we are so predictable it's crazy. Seriously think about it if all of us fans know what we are running every play don't you think the guys getting paid the big bucks know. Maybe we have so many sacks and QB hurries due to the fact that nobody in the NFL respects our pass because it is pure garbage.


The fans know we are running every play? Why is it all I've heard all season is that Billick doesn't run enough? Make up your minds. We have so many sacks and hurries because the line is pure garbage. Even on running plays there are defenders in the backfield. Like I said they can't even stop a four man rush.

[Galen Sevinne]

yeah Billick needs to tell Stover to make that field goal! Damn him! He must have forgotten. Oh yeah, Billick needs to tell the offense line to not let Boller get killed! Damn him! He must have forgotten. Billick needs to tell the guys to stop getting hurt. What the hell is he thinking??? If he would have told Mcallister, Rolle, Ogden, Wilcox, McNair, Clayton, Heap, Sams, Pryce, Williams, Flynn not to get hurt, we would be 10-4 instead of 4-10. Yep fire him.


Billick should've reminded Corey Ivy that he was supposed to be covering someone...anyone...while he was on the field. I actually saw Ivy ask Billick at one point, "Am I playing on the defense out here or playing Marco Polo?" I saw Billick's lips move and say, "Shut your fucking eyes and yell Marco"

What was Billick thinking? Man, fire him!!!!!


I bet Billick didn't even tell Ray not break his hand today! shithead. He should be fired for that! Idiot.

and it's Billick's fault the Ravens are so undisciplined. Did you see the penalties today? The freakin Ravens had one for five yards. That killed us. Didn't Billick tell them to not make any penatlies today??? I mean c'mon...that killed us. If Cowher was our coach, he wouldn't let them get that penalty...guarantee it!

Definitely today was without a doubt final straw...Fire HIM!

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

I do.

We've been ravaged by injury this year and poor play from the QB position. I would not say Billick gets a pass for this, or for anything, but as usual there is enough turd pie for everyone to get a slice.

We had 2d, 3d, and 4th stringers, hell even literally starting a practice squad guy at corner. Cornerback!

Bring in a good OC. I don't think anybody wants that now more than Billick. You may not like the result, but the team played hard, and the penalties weren't that bad today.

We are going to lose most games with both hands tied behind our backs by injury at key positions.

We just will.

Anyway you all can go jump off bridges if you want, in your hysteria. The Ravens will be fine, perhaps next year, perhaps the year after.

Standard caveat for this discussion applies: in the end, the FO's decision will be made on things happening 90% behind closed doors, that we'll never hear about. Which is why whatever they decide on is ok by me.

But I'm not going to blame Billick when our QB's have been unable to hit the side of a barn all year, and we have had *major* injuries across the board at key positions.

:iagree:

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

Please tell me what coach would win with our offensive line.

:iagree: :worthy:

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

I agree -- in the overtime, we did not have Pryce, arguably our best pass rushing lineman, as well as both starting cornerbacks, CMac and Rolle, and Heap, arguably our best receiver, and then during the game we lose Ray Lewis?

And all I will say about the OL is that they may become very good at some point, but right now they are so young and inexperienced that they could get ALL of our QBs killed -- we are already down to our third string QB, and while I'm happy that he's getting some playing time, I hope he doesn't get the hell beaten out of him like the first and second stringers have already.

Billick has made game-decisions that I didn't like, including today, but looking at the big picture, injuries is what has killed this team.

:worthy: :iagree:

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

This is not all the OL's fault, how many times did Boller sit in the pocket for over 5 sec holding the ball, i don't care what team it is you can not hold the ball that long, and Troy seemed to do ok back there.

How come Peyton Manning and Tom Brady can? :229031_confused2:

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

Regardless, we were in a position to win the game and Mr. Clutch Stover missed a kick. You can bitch and moan all you want about going for it on 4th and goal and if we lose you are still bitching and moaning.

:thumbup: :iagree: :rolling:

[ladyraven127]

Ahhhh . . . . my favorite subject . . . . . the offensive offensive line :thumbdown: Will there ever be a day that the priority will be my favorite subject.

I really know I'm going to get blasted for this but here goes: I'm seriously concerned about Ozzie and the way this team has drafted and the depth (or lack thereof) in all positions except linebacker. When does the responsibility for what's going on with this team reach that level?

No quarterback is going to survive on this team unless we have an adequate offensive line. I'll settle for adequate because hoping for anything else is unrealistic.

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

yeah Billick needs to tell Stover to make that field goal! Damn him! He must have forgotten. Oh yeah, Billick needs to tell the offense line to not let Boller get killed! Damn him! He must have forgotten. Billick needs to tell the guys to stop getting hurt. What the hell is he thinking??? If he would have told Mcallister, Rolle, Ogden, Wilcox, McNair, Clayton, Heap, Sams, Pryce, Williams, Flynn not to get hurt, we would be 10-4 instead of 4-10. Yep fire him.


Billick should've reminded Corey Ivy that he was supposed to be covering someone...anyone...while he was on the field. I actually saw Ivy ask Billick at one point, "Am I playing on the defense out here or playing Marco Polo?" I saw Billick's lips move and say, "Shut your fucking eyes and yell Marco"

What was Billick thinking? Man, fire him!!!!!


I bet Billick didn't even tell Ray not break his hand today! shithead. He should be fired for that! Idiot.

and it's Billick's fault the Ravens are so undisciplined. Did you see the penalties today? The freakin Ravens had one for five yards. That killed us. Didn't Billick tell them to not make any penatlies today??? I mean c'mon...that killed us. If Cowher was our coach, he wouldn't let them get that penalty...guarantee it!

Definitely today was without a doubt final straw...Fire HIM!

I don't know if I should agree with you or not:229031_confused2: I am taking this as:261695:

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

Ahhhh . . . . my favorite subject . . . . . the offensive offensive line :thumbdown: Will there ever be a day that the priority will be my favorite subject.

I really know I'm going to get blasted for this but here goes: I'm seriously concerned about Ozzie and the way this team has drafted and the depth (or lack thereof) in all positions except linebacker. When does the responsibility for what's going on with this team reach that level?

No quarterback is going to survive on this team unless we have an adequate offensive line. I'll settle for adequate because hoping for anything else is unrealistic.

Thank you for being real sis:worthy: :iagree:

[RockyMRaven]

yeah Billick needs to tell Stover to make that field goal! Damn him! He must have forgotten. Oh yeah, Billick needs to tell the offense line to not let Boller get killed! Damn him! He must have forgotten. Billick needs to tell the guys to stop getting hurt. What the hell is he thinking??? If he would have told Mcallister, Rolle, Ogden, Wilcox, McNair, Clayton, Heap, Sams, Pryce, Williams, Flynn not to get hurt, we would be 10-4 instead of 4-10. Yep fire him.


Billick should've reminded Corey Ivy that he was supposed to be covering someone...anyone...while he was on the field. I actually saw Ivy ask Billick at one point, "Am I playing on the defense out here or playing Marco Polo?" I saw Billick's lips move and say, "Shut your fucking eyes and yell Marco"

What was Billick thinking? Man, fire him!!!!!


I bet Billick didn't even tell Ray not break his hand today! shithead. He should be fired for that! Idiot.

and it's Billick's fault the Ravens are so undisciplined. Did you see the penalties today? The freakin Ravens had one for five yards. That killed us. Didn't Billick tell them to not make any penatlies today??? I mean c'mon...that killed us. If Cowher was our coach, he wouldn't let them get that penalty...guarantee it!

Definitely today was without a doubt final straw...Fire HIM!

Rack it!!!

[xmradiodave]

I think the front office has simply rode the Defense train for too long, that our O-line has been negelcted. We have watched the defense carry this team for so long that it was bound to give. It just took injuries at key positions on the D to shut the team down. The offense has always been the same borderline mediocre to piss poor that it has always been.

It is time to start building consistency on BOTH sides of the ball.

Does this make everything Billicks fault? No, but his offenseive play-calling is suspect and he needs to bring in an OC to pawn the duties off to. His plate is apparently a bit full and he can no longer handle all the responsibilities. Aside from his suspect play-vcalling, I am willing to see what the guy can accomplish next year if the team stays healthy and is the offense decides to start earning their paycheck.

[Dade]

I do.

We've been ravaged by injury this year and poor play from the QB position. I would not say Billick gets a pass for this, or for anything, but as usual there is enough turd pie for everyone to get a slice.

We had 2d, 3d, and 4th stringers, hell even literally starting a practice squad guy at corner. Cornerback!

Bring in a good OC. I don't think anybody wants that now more than Billick. You may not like the result, but the team played hard, and the penalties weren't that bad today.

We are going to lose most games with both hands tied behind our backs by injury at key positions.


People act we are the only team to suffer major injuries at key positions. For example the Colts have had injuries all over all season long. And whats there record? 12-2. They've lost Marvin Harrison HOF receiver, Dwight Freeney possible HOF pass rusher for the season. One game they couldn't even dress a 53 player roster. So why are they 12-2? It's call coaching. Getting those 3rd and 4th stringers ready to play. Of course they aren't great players, thats why they ride the bench. But when they do play use their strengths. Put them into position to be successfull.

Is this an example of good coaching: Let's leave Corey Ivy alone man on man on an island. I know Ryan is the DC but as the HC after Ivy is burned hundred times, shouldn't BB instruct Ryan to not do that anymore. He is the HC. Not the OC. I understand letting Rex run his show, but when he sees something wrong he must correct it.

The O line: okay there have been injuries there. But lets have guards and tackles play on the opposite side of the line and shuffle them around week after week. Thats the way for them to learn the different, and gel together so your QB doesn't get kill.

Establish a gameplan. Is it just me or does our offense never seem to start games coherently? I mean you never know what they're trying to do, establish the run game early or open it up with the passing game. We constantly look unprepared and undisciplined. Poor game management need I go on.

Miami came ready to play. Of course they had something to play for, avoid the shame of a winless season. But seriously Miami?!!

For these failures alone BB should be fire.

[b-more_4_Life]

People act we are the only team to suffer major injuries at key positions. For example the Colts have had injuries all over all season long. And whats there record? 12-2. They've lost Marvin Harrison HOF receiver, Dwight Freeney possible HOF pass rusher for the season. One game they couldn't even dress a 53 player roster. So why are they 12-2? It's call coaching. Getting those 3rd and 4th stringers ready to play. Of course they aren't great players, thats why they ride the bench. But when they do play use their strengths. Put them into position to be successfull.

Is this an example of good coaching: Let's leave Corey Ivy alone man on man on an island. I know Ryan is the DC but as the HC after Ivy is burned hundred times, shouldn't BB instruct Ryan to not do that anymore. He is the HC. Not the OC. I understand letting Rex run his show, but when he sees something wrong he must correct it.

The O line: okay there have been injuries there. But lets have guards and tackles play on the opposite side of the line and shuffle them around week after week. Thats the way for them to learn the different, and gel together so your QB doesn't get kill.

Establish a gameplan. Is it just me or does our offense never seem to start games coherently? I mean you never know what they're trying to do, establish the run game early or open it up with the passing game. We constantly look unprepared and undisciplined. Poor game management need I go on.

Miami came ready to play. Of course they had something to play for, avoid the shame of a winless season. But seriously Miami?!!

For these failures alone BB should be fire.

Festivus, please read this post. You've been crying about injuries all year and that its not Billicks fault. Responding to injuries is actually the definition to great coaching!

[RustonRifle]

Strangely enough I'm not angry the Ravens lost yesterday. I figured this team would lose.

It is painfully obvous that Billick needs to be canned. Their is no way in hell this is a 4 win team, absolutely no way. Heck with all the excuses. People need to be held accountable for this squads lousy play. The offense has sucked ass for 9 seasons.

If Billick stays that's fine with me.

I'll prepare myself for another lousy season next year.

How many wins does billick have that made you say "we shouldn't have won that game but coaching made the difference?" Very few in his nine seasons, Billick needs superior talent to overcome the weak gameplanning and coaching on his side of the ball.


This man is hardly a genius or offensive guru. Hardly.

[btownraven]

People act we are the only team to suffer major injuries at key positions. For example the Colts have had injuries all over all season long. And whats there record? 12-2. They've lost Marvin Harrison HOF receiver, Dwight Freeney possible HOF pass rusher for the season. One game they couldn't even dress a 53 player roster. So why are they 12-2? It's call coaching. Getting those 3rd and 4th stringers ready to play. Of course they aren't great players, thats why they ride the bench. But when they do play use their strengths. Put them into position to be successfull.

Don't forget their starting LT for the last 10 years retired a week before training camp, leaving a rookie protecting Manning's blind side.

I'm so tired of the injury excuse. Given the injuries could we have expected 13-3? Not likely. But 4-10??? With 3 losses to the Bengals (5-9) and Dolphins (1-13)? Those 2 teams have 3 wins combined against the Ravens and 3 wins combined against the rest of the league.

[festivus]

Festivus, please read this post. You've been crying about injuries all year and that its not Billicks fault. Responding to injuries is actually the definition to great coaching!

Crying!? All year??!!

Btown, are you new here? I am not the one crying, friend. Never have been. Crying ~ Hysteria, and if you haven't been paying attention, that's not me.

I am, however, bone weary of people saying, and I'm quoting here from a radio host this weekend, "Injuries shminjuries."

Injuries are *important*, and blowing them off is just ignorant. Did we make adjustments? Dade thinks no, and apparently you bmore agree, but the fact is we DID. At least according to the announcers - I couldn't tell, but they could I guess - we went to a cover 2 sometimes to protect the corners. Changing from man to a very particular type of funky zone, a HUGE adjustment in playstyle, but one forced on us in desperate times.

Guess what? Even in a cover 2, when we are without Trevor Pryce, Ray Lewis, Chris McAlister and Samari Rolle, as we were in the 2d half yesterday, fielding a practice squad guy as a starting corner, our defense is not as good. It's just not. It looks *much* more like the defense we fielded in the 2d quarter (2d half!) of the preseason games.

Changing the scheme will not make the ponies into stallions.

Anyway, the short answer is, yes, I read Dade's post, it was a good post, as Dade's normally are. You think I'm being close minded, I guess, and you probably think I'm a "Billick hugger" or some such nickname, but I'm not. I'm just watching football and trying to be objective in my observations.

[festivus]

Oh, the Colts, overcoming their terrible injuries.

Where the hell were they last year without Bob Sanders? Their defense was ATROCIOUS last year when Sanders was out, giving up hundreds of yards a game on the ground. He comes in, the defense is suddenly good.

The question is who is the next man up. What's the level of drop off from one to the next, and who else can pick up the slack.

That's why the Trevor Pryce injury was devastating at DE, because we have nobody else. When Harrison goes down, Wayne is *there*, as are a host of other good-to-excellent receivers.

Don't give me that garbage about Harrison being out unless you are ready to talk about Sanders last year too. Or how they would look without Manning. :grbac: Stupid argument, I need to do some work.

[Fanman]

Festivus,

While I respect your opnions on keeping Billick this is NOT about just this year.

I have been pining for BB to get fired since 2003. He has never put good seasons back to back since 2001 while he had one of the THE best defenses in the NFL each year.

He has not been able to produce an even average offense in 9 years; and he has not been able to produce a coaching staff that can develop QB talent.

All this adds up to a coach that needs to go. And on top of that they haven't won a playoff game since 2001. And you just keep giving excuse after excuse about injuries....the O-line, blah, blah, blah. Come on man..I respect your loyalty but this is a black and white issue.

Billick's scheme, style and playcalling do NOT work here anymore and haven't for years. It's clearly broken and it's time to fix it.

FM

[AZRAVEN]

Ahhhh . . . . my favorite subject . . . . . the offensive offensive line :thumbdown: Will there ever be a day that the priority will be my favorite subject.

I really know I'm going to get blasted for this but here goes: I'm seriously concerned about Ozzie and the way this team has drafted and the depth (or lack thereof) in all positions except linebacker. When does the responsibility for what's going on with this team reach that level?
No quarterback is going to survive on this team unless we have an adequate offensive line. I'll settle for adequate because hoping for anything else is unrealistic.

A-freakin-MEN!! I'm tired of Ozzie being the sacred cow in Baltimore. Our drafts since Savage left have been spotty at best. We have no competent depth anywhere but linebacker Why?
I'm sorry, but I just don't think Ozzie and Ertic are getting it done. If Billick goes so should Ozzie and DeCosta.

[festivus]

While I respect your opnions on keeping Billick this is NOT about just this year.

I have been pining for BB to get fired since 2003. He has never put good seasons back to back since 2001 while he had one of the THE best defenses in the NFL each year.

He has not been able to produce an even average offense in 9 years; and he has not been able to produce a coaching staff that can develop QB talent.

All this adds up to a coach that needs to go. And on top of that they haven't won a playoff game since 2001. And you just keep giving excuse after excuse about injuries....the O-line, blah, blah, blah. Come on man..I respect your loyalty but this is a black and white issue.

Billick's scheme, style and playcalling do NOT work here anymore and haven't for years. It's clearly broken and it's time to fix it.

FM

Fanman I completely understand and respect your opinion. You are not a johnny come lately griping near the end of a bad season, you are a guy who has been saying the same thing through thick and through thin, and I respect that.

We've discussed it a bit before. Concerning Billick's body of work, I agree 100% we have never had the kind of high flying offense we did, years ago, with Vinny T. The limited, and occasional, success we've had on offense has been with a dink and dunk type game, last year, or on the ground, with Jamal in 03. We had a real shot in 01 I think with Elvis but there was nothing in place when Jamal went down. Not an impressive body of work, agreed.

Still, the FO has simply not invested in that side of the ball until two years ago. The limited offense we had prior was, in my opinion, smoke and mirrors built out of paper clips and chewing gum. Our OC was MacGyver, putting together an offense in a dark room working only with bits of string and a water balloon. We had a parade of QB's come through and for various reasons none panned out; it's not like any besides Derek Anderson amounted to anything after they left. Billick is NOT the guy responsible for personnel, as you know.

For most of last year we did pretty well with a mediocre offense. Then starting in week 16, and continuing to this year, we suddenly got nothing out of the quarterback position. It's like McNair got old overnight, suddenly inaccurate and limp-armed. Then this year we have had a flood of injuries, as I've mentioned before. Ruston Rifle correctly points out Miami has had injuries too. Well, look where *they* are this season. That's what happens, when you have injuries at positions where your depth isn't there.

I've never said Billick is without blame, just the opposite in fact. And this time next year I could very well be agreeing with you all that his time has come. I don't need any 'proof beyond a reasonable doubt' or anything, I just don't think what he's done so far really qualifies as a firing offense.

I *would* like to bring in a high quality OC, because I don't think BB should be wearing two hats. Let someone with the right resume - *not* from college, I have no idea where so many posters got the idea that Rick Neuheisel is somehow qualified for the job - come in and make the most with whatever we have.

Anyway Fanman, it's good to see you chiming in here. :toast:

[btownraven]

Oh, the Colts, overcoming their terrible injuries.

Where the hell were they last year without Bob Sanders? Their defense was ATROCIOUS last year when Sanders was out, giving up hundreds of yards a game on the ground.

The Colts went 12-4 last year and won their division. By finding a way to win without Sanders, they didn't have to rush him back and he was completely healthy for the playoffs. Looks like they're doing the same thing this year with Harrison.


The question is who is the next man up. What's the level of drop off from one to the next, and who else can pick up the slack.

That's why the Trevor Pryce injury was devastating at DE, because we have nobody else.


As I said earlier, with the injuries we've had we're not a 13-3 team. But we're better than 4-10. We had no business losing either game to 5-9 Cincy (Pryce played in both of those games) and we gave away the 2nd Cleveland game & yesterday's game with questionable end-of-game decisions.

[Greg's Dog]

What plays are those? They can't pass block or run block. What plays do you suggest? maybe they can catch and we can make them all eligible receivers.

The plays where the OL players are not supposed to block. You can tell Billick is calling the "let Jason Taylor go without being blocked" play on purpose. I am thinking he caught Boller ogling one of his daughters and that is why he calls that play so often.

[Dade]

Oh, the Colts, overcoming their terrible injuries.

Where the hell were they last year without Bob Sanders? Their defense was ATROCIOUS last year when Sanders was out, giving up hundreds of yards a game on the ground. He comes in, the defense is suddenly good.

The question is who is the next man up. What's the level of drop off from one to the next, and who else can pick up the slack.

That's why the Trevor Pryce injury was devastating at DE, because we have nobody else. When Harrison goes down, Wayne is *there*, as are a host of other good-to-excellent receivers.

Don't give me that garbage about Harrison being out unless you are ready to talk about Sanders last year too. Or how they would look without Manning. :grbac: Stupid argument, I need to do some work.


Good point Indy's D was awfull last year without Sanders. But even without Sanders they still made the playoffs. True without Harrison they still have Wayne, Clark (who has missed he fair share of games this season) and Gonzales (excellent draft pick). This means they have depth something we lack.

Look I'm not saying the injuries are BB fault. Injuries are only a part of the reason we currently sit 4-10. BB should go because of suspect playcalling (not just this year), inability to develop a QB over 9 seasons, high school offense, constantly under achieving when expectations are high, undisplined/unprepared, poor game management: He actually said he challenges plays that he knows he won't win just to take a chance to see if he gets lucky, WTF! These factors over the years have lead to one playoff win since the SB. Its clear he is no longer in control of this team. The vets aren't buying into him anymore. When players have lost respect for a HC something has to change. Either the players go or the HC.

[RustonRifle]

Our drafts since Savage left have been spotty at best.



Who are you kidding ??? The Ravens last draft with Savage as scouting director-----:187734:

The 2004 draft may have been the worst in our short history. A while back I read that the idea to trade up and get Boller was savages as well.


2 Dwan Edwards DT
3 Devard Darling WR
5 Roderick Green DE
6 Josh Harris QB
6 Clarence Moore WR
7 Derek Abney WR
7 Brian Rimpf G

[festivus]

The Colts went 12-4 last year and won their division. By finding a way to win without Sanders, they didn't have to rush him back and he was completely healthy for the playoffs. Looks like they're doing the same thing this year with Harrison.

No. They played roughly 500 ball without Sanders last year, losing badly to JAX and then to HOU in week 16.

The Harrison situation is different, they keep up the pace without him because they have plenty of other receivers.

I am sorry you didn't understand. :brickwall:

K, once again I run out of patience and give you the last word. Enjoy it.

[copenhaggard]

We've actually had some pretty good drafts since Savage left.

It's easy to think Savage is a draft Guru when you pick in the top 10 every year, plus the fact that the Browns have had enough cap room to sign anybody.

I'll give Savage plenty of credit, but I'm not about to throw Ozzie under the bus.

[btownraven]

No. They played roughly 500 ball without Sanders last year, losing badly to JAX and then to HOU in week 16.

They were 8-4 without Sanders last year.

[AZRAVEN]

Who are you kidding ??? The Ravens last draft with Savage as scouting director-----:187734:

The 2004 draft may have been the worst in our short history. A while back I read that the idea to trade up and get Boller was savages as well.


2 Dwan Edwards DT
3 Devard Darling WR
5 Roderick Green DE
6 Josh Harris QB
6 Clarence Moore WR
7 Derek Abney WR
7 Brian Rimpf G

I stand corrected. Apparently, it didn't start with DeCosta. However, that still doesn't absolve Newsome as he is supposed to be the lead dog in this parade. It also doesn't change the fact that this team has little to no quality depth at any position other than linebacker. I think a lot of the problem is this rule by committee approach the Ravens use, to many voices, to many opinions and all it seems to be leading to is confusion and ineptness. IMO it is more than just Billick who isn't getting it done but, of course, firing the coach is always the first and easiest solution.

[Fanman]

There is no doubt now the FO is suspect in their past several drafts and they have ALWAYS been poor on drafting offensive talent.

So far since 2000 only Heap and Jamal Lewis have been above average on the offense. No other WRs, RBS, QBs, OL have been worth much. The jury is till out on Clayton and Williams.

And the one that looks like he has some legit talent they let get away to Cleveland...and they will never live down that mistake.

FM

[RustonRifle]

I stand corrected. Apparently, it didn't start with DeCosta. However, that still doesn't absolve Newsome as he is supposed to be the lead dog in this parade. It also doesn't change the fact that this team has little to no quality depth at any position other than linebacker. I think a lot of the problem is this rule by committee approach the Ravens use, to many voices, to many opinions and all it seems to be leading to is confusion and ineptness. IMO it is more than just Billick who isn't getting it done but, of course, firing the coach is always the first and easiest solution.


I agree Ozzie makes mistakes but all GMs are going to make bad choices in free agency and the draft. It's just the nature of the beast. I believe the ravens are one of the top five organizations when it comes to drafting.

Judging by his first few drafts I beleive Decosta is much better than Phil Savage.

If the Ravens fired Ozzie more than likely umpteen teams would be lining up for his services, I'd be surprised if Billick would have more than a few for a job in any capacity, he certainly wouldn't be hired as a coordinator. The ravens have little to show considering the talented rosters he's been handed during his tenure.

Prime example of Billicks piss poor gameplanning is opening game 2007. Few teams can win a shootout with the Bengals and most teams can run on them.
Yet , Billicks game plan [keep in mind we had a healthy roster going into game one] was to throw the ball all over the field. The smart plan would have been to try and control the clock and keep the ball out of Carson Palmers hands.

Looking back this season was over before it even began.


Just my 2c.

[Fanman]

RR..love that Wylie E Coyote gif...nice job.

Let's let him call the plays next week vs Seattle!!!!

FM

[RustonRifle]

Thanks, Thinking about it, Billicks offense could be called the ACME offense.:p

[AZRAVEN]

I agree Ozzie makes mistakes but all GMs are going to make bad choices in free agency and the draft. It's just the nature of the beast. I believe the ravens are one of the top five organizations when it comes to drafting.

Judging by his first few drafts I beleive Decosta is much better than Phil Savage.

If the Ravens fired Ozzie more than likely umpteen teams would be lining up for his services, I'd be surprised if Billick would have more than a few for a job in any capacity, he certainly wouldn't be hired as a coordinator. The ravens have little to show considering the talented rosters he's been handed during his tenure.

Prime example of Billicks piss poor gameplanning is opening game 2007. Few teams can win a shootout with the Bengals and most teams can run on them.
Yet , Billicks game plan [keep in mind we had a healthy roster going into game one] was to throw the ball all over the field. The smart plan would have been to try and control the clock and keep the ball out of Carson Palmers hands.

Looking back this season was over before it even began.


Just my 2c.



Of course he's going to make errors, we all do and I'm certainly not expecting Ozzie to be perfect. I agree many teams would line up to hire him should he leave; that's the nature of the league you get a rep and it stays awhile, he has the rep of being a drafting "guru". That also explains the retread coaches who keep getting hired because once a long time ago they did something good (Norv Turner for example). I just don't happen to believe he's done that great a job lately. We'll just have to agree to disagree regarding the "talented rosters" he's had during his tenure. Personally, on offense, I think our rosters have pretty consistantly stunk.

[HARRYOS29]

If the Ravens want Cowher (I bet they do), they might be willing to suck up another so-so year of Billick to get him.

:jester: i DIDN' TWANT BILLICK BACK IN 2006.. ANY BODY WHO HAS WATCHED THE RAVENS OFFENSE, SINCE 1999, KNOWS THAT BILLICK IS ROBERT PRESTON IN THE MUSIC MAN...HE IS A SNAKE OIL SALESMAN...
HE TELLS YOU HOW GOOD ITS GONNA BE..BUT NEVER DELIVERS...
HARRY OS 29
SYKESVILLE,MD

[btownraven]

Of course he's going to make errors, we all do and I'm certainly not expecting Ozzie to be perfect. I agree many teams would line up to hire him should he leave; that's the nature of the league you get a rep and it stays awhile, he has the rep of being a drafting "guru". That also explains the retread coaches who keep getting hired because once a long time ago they did something good (Norv Turner for example). I just don't happen to believe he's done that great a job lately. We'll just have to agree to disagree regarding the "talented rosters" he's had during his tenure. Personally, on offense, I think our rosters have pretty consistantly stunk.
This leads to the million dollar question - does Ozzie and the scouting staff have an issue judging talent on the offensive side while being very strong on the defensive side? Or are they putting talented players into a system that does a poor job of utilizing that talent?

Personally, I think it's the latter, especially given the success of some players after leaving Baltimore (Priest Holmes, Derek Anderson, Brandon Stokley, Chester Taylor). But we'll never know for sure as long as this offensive coaching staff and system remain.

[HoustonRaven]

:jester: i DIDN' TWANT BILLICK BACK IN 2006.. ANY BODY WHO HAS WATCHED THE RAVENS OFFENSE, SINCE 1999, KNOWS THAT BILLICK IS ROBERT PRESTON IN THE MUSIC MAN...HE IS A SNAKE OIL SALESMAN...
HE TELLS YOU HOW GOOD ITS GONNA BE..BUT NEVER DELIVERS...
HARRY OS 29
SYKESVILLE,MD

Whoa dude .... stop abusing your space bar and caps lock!

[Purpleguy]

This leads to the million dollar question - does Ozzie and the scouting staff have an issue judging talent on the offensive side while being very strong on the defensive side? Or are they putting talented players into a system that does a poor job of utilizing that talent?

Personally, I think it's the latter, especially given the success of some players after leaving Baltimore (Priest Holmes, Derek Anderson, Brandon Stokley, Chester Taylor). But we'll never know for sure as long as this offensive coaching staff and system remain.\

Derek Anderson was let go by Ozzie to keep Kordell Stewart. Priest Holmes was proclaimed the 5th best back in the AFC central by Ozzie, Brandon Stokely was effective here when he was healthy, which was rare. Chester Taylor really hasn't done all that much since he left here) In all actuality all of the guys ou mentioned, other than Anderson who didn't see the field, were all effective in our system. Ozzie decided to replace them or let them go.

The fact is that you can count Ozzies FA and draft offensive hits on one hand. You have Ogden, a can't miss pick; Sharpe, a can't miss FA aquisition; Jamal Lewis, a solid back, but maybe not as useful as the guy he replaced; Derick Mason, a great possesion guy when we needed a burner; and Heape, a late first round steal.

What bothers me the most out of that list is that we have only brought in one bona fide really solid o-lineman in 12 years. That is a recipe for a disastrous offense. Let's not even mention the fact that he let Rabach go to keep Flynn.

I actually find it completely amazing that Billick won a superbowl with Qadry Ismail as his top wide receiver and Trent Dilfer as his QB. That is quite the accomplishment. Remember that the Titans actually had the #1 ranked defense that season. Billick won a Superbowl with a rag tag offense and the #2 overall defense. Fischer didn't make it to one with the #1 overall defense and an offense that looked like the modern day patriots compared to ours.

[festivus]

They were 8-4 without Sanders last year.

12-4 all year
8-4 without Sanders

which means
7-0 with him, including playoffs and SB

You made your point, but in doing so made mine.

Injuries matter, and we've had a lot. RR pointed out so did Miami, and he's right, and look what they're doing this season.

[b-more_4_Life]

12-4 all year
8-4 without Sanders

which means
7-0 with him, including playoffs and SB

You made your point, but in doing so made mine.

Injuries matter, and we've had a lot. RR pointed out so did Miami, and he's right, and look what they're doing this season.

Now your making my point even stronger by mentioning Miami. They have one of the worst head coaches in the league. Just look at the Cam's record when he was at Indiana. Just horrible.

A good coach can deal with injuries. A poor one cannot thus Cameron and Billick have their ready made excuses!

[AZRAVEN]

This leads to the million dollar question - does Ozzie and the scouting staff have an issue judging talent on the offensive side while being very strong on the defensive side? Or are they putting talented players into a system that does a poor job of utilizing that talent?

Personally, I think it's the latter, especially given the success of some players after leaving Baltimore (Priest Holmes, Derek Anderson, Brandon Stokley, Chester Taylor). But we'll never know for sure as long as this offensive coaching staff and system remain.


No, I don't think the overall talent on offense has been that great. You name four players but what about all the others? Anderson is having a good year but lets see what he does over the long haul, Holmes was good but wanted to leave because of Jamal, Stokley was fairly good but couldn't stay on the field, and Chester Taylor was another who wanted to leave because of Jamal. Personally I would have dumped Jamal and kept Taylor but that's just me. Over all our OL is been hideous, most of the WR's we've brought in either can't get free or can't catch, and Jamal was fine as long as he wasn't pouting about something. I just don't believe we've had the talent.

[festivus]

Now your making my point even stronger by mentioning Miami. They have one of the worst head coaches in the league. Just look at the Cam's record when he was at Indiana. Just horrible.

A good coach can deal with injuries. A poor one cannot thus Cameron and Billick have their ready made excuses!

:rolling: Show me a team which has lost this many key starters and had success. In NFL history. Go ahead, I'll give you NFL history. All of it.

You can't tell what kind of coach Cam Cameron is, or what kind of coach Brian Billick is, when they don't have horses to run the race.

Look I'll make your argument for you, ok? Or you can read Fanman's posts and just copy and paste.

"Brian Billick has been HC these many years and has never had a productive offense. Never. Been through three OC's. Over all that time we've always been a joke on that side of the ball."

Just copy and paste that, ok? Then we can be done, even though we still won't agree.

Can't believe I came back to this argument. :doh:

[HoustonRaven]

:rolling: Show me a team which has lost this many key starters and had success. In NFL history. Go ahead, I'll give you NFL history. All of it.

You can't tell what kind of coach Cam Cameron is, or what kind of coach Brian Billick is, when they don't have horses to run the race.

Look I'll make your argument for you, ok? Or you can read Fanman's posts and just copy and paste.

"Brian Billick has been HC these many years and has never had a productive offense. Never. Been through three OC's. Over all that time we've always been a joke on that side of the ball."

Just copy and paste that, ok? Then we can be done, even though we still won't agree.

Can't believe I came back to this argument. :doh:

Im sorry you fell back in but come on ... your one-track excuse machine of injuries doesnt fly, IMHO.

Of course we have been riddled with injuries. Nobody is discounting that impact. But you cant ignore games like the season opener against the Bengals, Niners, Jets etc. You need to evaluate Billick's entire body of work, not just one injury laden season.

He has been anywhere between mediocre to a failure with 50% of his job -- the offense. THAT alone warrant calls for his head. Now thrown in his lack of control over his players, the fact we're always towards the top of the league in penalties AND his bizarre calls at key moments and I think this one is a no-brainer.

I feel ya and we're all frustrated. I just cant hang my hat on "just" injuries this season (and past seasons).

[RavenTD]

No worries he'll be back spewing the usual words of wisdom to the masses that none of us can understand or want to listen to.

The same old message, the same old ways for the players to kick back and relax to.The same old laid back atmosphere,the same old playing not to lose.
The same old relying on Stover or the defense to get us a win,when we have seen that this tactic just does not cut it anymore.The same old lazy confused offense that looks like it was around in the 1960's.

Yes, continuity is a safe bet.So is playing for the FG instead of the TD in the redzone.

If Billick is back,then things have to change in a big way.But with BB's stubborness and high horse attitude.I cannot see a U turn in the teams philosophy.

[festivus]

I feel ya and we're all frustrated. I just cant hang my hat on "just" injuries this season (and past seasons).

I'm not hanging my hat on injuries. I'm not saying Billick is blameless this or any season. I don't know how many times I've said this, but I feel like it's read out of my posts. Anyway. . .

/begin rant
I'm saying *this* season we have been principally taken down by injuries and poor play from the QB position.

You want to fire Billick over years of ineptitude on offense, that's fine. I understand *that* even though I don't agree. Reasonable minds can differ on that one, in my opinion.

But *this* year, we were doomed with a bad bite from the injury bug, and very poor play from the QB position. It is not Brian Billick's fault that we only have one legit DE on the roster, and it is not Brian Billick's fault that our CB situation is so awful that we had to call a guy up from the PS to play, and that our top pass catching threat has been out almost all season, and his backup almost as long. And it is not Brian Billick's fault that Steve McNair suddenly got old and inaccurate before week 17 last year, and we do not have a legit starter on the roster behind him. That shit is NOT HIS FAULT.

And while I'm on this rant, I don't want to hear anybody complaining about him being wordy or using coach-speak. He is very communicative with the media and the fans. He just is, that's a fact. You won't get better from another coach.

/end rant

Ok I feel better.

[Real Fan Dan]

Billick will be okay for next year. Here's why:
Even if we want to, we can't get rid of a number of players just yet because of the cap hits we'll take. The FO has to figure that one out before they can really rebuild the team. It looks like we'll have a phased purge where we dump our cap overhead over the next couple years, aquiring young draft picks at the same time. After that i expect we'll continue to build thru the draft but we'll also have cap room to get some good FA's. The whole re-build process will probably take 3-4 years i'm guessing.

During the first year (or maybe two) it won't matter who's the Coach. Kind of like Marchibroda was before we got Billick. That means the FO has a year (or two) to find the right OC, DC or vet HC to do the job. Billick will continue to lose with his aging veterans. The FO will build with high draft picks because of those losses. When all the cap heavy players are gone, the Ravens will can Billick and leave the development of our new young core of players to our new coaching staff.

or something like that. ;)

[crazyraven]

But *this* year, we were doomed with a bad bite from the injury bug, and very poor play from the QB position. It is not Brian Billick's fault that we only have one legit DE on the roster, and it is not Brian Billick's fault that our CB situation is so awful that we had to call a guy up from the PS to play, and that our top pass catching threat has been out almost all season, and his backup almost as long. And it is not Brian Billick's fault that Steve McNair suddenly got old and inaccurate before week 17 last year, and we do not have a legit starter on the roster behind him. That shit is NOT HIS FAULT.

I have to agree 100% here with you Fest.

Everybody seems to forget that billick had his superbowl team striped apart because of the FO's overspending. Every meaningful position was let go. After that Billick was suppose to start the season with the youngest team ever essembled, The thing is he took that team to the brink of the playoffs. and The following year his team won the division title in 2003 with Anthony Wright Quarterbacking his team. This got away in 2004, if the ravens had TO Things may have been different for billick and the ravens especially in that Cincy home game. 2005 was a nightmare from the get go, much like this season. Last year we had the best season ever but we had to go out and get an aging QB. It almost worked.

A few weeks ago I was feeling that Billick should go but everything on this team has broken down aroung him. This is the first time I've seen a Billick team suffer this many injuries in one season. He always takes the precautions to make sure his teams are fresh in December. This year, I feel, he is just a victim of circumstance.

[btownraven]

Remember that the Titans actually had the #1 ranked defense that season. Billick won a Superbowl with a rag tag offense and the #2 overall defense. Fischer didn't make it to one with the #1 overall defense and an offense that looked like the modern day patriots compared to ours.
The #1/#2 defense is a little misleading. The Ravens defense set the 16-game record for fewest points allowed & fewest rushing yards allowed, had 4 shutouts, and were #1 until Week 17, when the Jets went no-huddle & had over 400 yards total offense (and a bunch of turnovers).

The other thing is that the Titans outplayed us in that playoff game, with almost twice as many total yards. Eddie George was on pace for 100 yards rushing until they fell behind and abandoned the run. We won because Al Del Greco missed 3 FG's, including 1 that was blocked & returned for the go-ahead TD. After that they started passing every down, leading to Ray's INT TD.

That said, I thought Billick did an outstanding job in 2000. He completely changed the attitude of the team compared to the Marchibroda days. It took him a while, but once he figured out how good Jamal and the defense were he rode them very smartly. He was one of the most important factors in the Ravens' winning the Super Bowl.

I just don't think the Ravens can win another with him. He hasn't proven he can fix the offense and his cocky attitude, which was so needed when he arrived, has become a liability.

[HoustonRaven]

The #1/#2 defense is a little misleading. The Ravens defense set the 16-game record for fewest points allowed & fewest rushing yards allowed, had 4 shutouts, and were #1 until Week 17, when the Jets went no-huddle & had over 400 yards total offense (and a bunch of turnovers).

Dont sell them short. They also didnt allow one single 100 yard rusher in the regular season! :thumbup:

[b-more_4_Life]

:rolling: Show me a team which has lost this many key starters and had success. In NFL history. Go ahead, I'll give you NFL history. All of it.

You can't tell what kind of coach Cam Cameron is, or what kind of coach Brian Billick is, when they don't have horses to run the race.

Look I'll make your argument for you, ok? Or you can read Fanman's posts and just copy and paste.

"Brian Billick has been HC these many years and has never had a productive offense. Never. Been through three OC's. Over all that time we've always been a joke on that side of the ball."

Just copy and paste that, ok? Then we can be done, even though we still won't agree.

Can't believe I came back to this argument. :doh:

Festivus, thanks for making my argument for me. I really appreciate you doing that for me. It must be the Festivus season that has you in such a wonderful mode. I believe Festivus is celebrated on the 23rd of this month.

Happy Festivus, too bad we wont be going to the playoffs for the 3rd time in 4 years!

Also, if we lose our next two games since 2004 our record under Billick is 32-32. That's also the season Bisciotti took over as majority owner, see a coincidence there!

I think that's the difference between Billick supporters and those that want him gone. One group (supporters) accepts mediocrity whereas those that want him gone expect excellence for our Baltimore Ravens!

[festivus]

Festivus, thanks for making my argument for me. I really appreciate you doing that for me. It must be the Festivus season that has you in such a wonderful mode. I believe Festivus is celebrated on the 23rd of this month.

Happy Festivus, too bad we wont be going to the playoffs for the 3rd time in 4 years!

Also, if we lose our next two games since 2004 our record under Billick is 32-32. That's also the season Bisciotti took over as majority owner, see a coincidence there!

I think that's the difference between Billick supporters and those that want him gone. One group (supporters) accepts mediocrity whereas those that want him gone expect excellence for our Baltimore Ravens!

I did not make *your* argument for you. I made Fanman's argument for you, and I am sure he doesn't mind. Your argument has been all over the place but mostly pointing fingers at me for saying injuries were a factor this year.

I accept this season for what it was. Lost because of injuries and poor quarterback play. I will certainly accept 'mediocrity' of execution when mediocrity is all we have on the field.

Somehow you quote my posts without reading them.

:shrug:

By the way - I notice you didn't answer my question. You said a good coach wins in spite of injuries like the ones we've had this year. So I challenged you to name one NFL team with our level of injuries *ever* to have success. Ever. I'm still waiting.

edit: Putting you on ignore. You keep repeating yourself, misstating what I said, and what you said, and using hyperbole and now you're on my nerves.

[Dade]

I challenged you to name one NFL team with our level of injuries *ever* to have success.


I think I may have found a team. The 2005 New England Patriots.

After the 2004 season, Belichick's top two coordinators, Charlie Weis and Romeo Crennel, left the team to pursue head coaching positions. Linebacker Tedy Bruschi missed half of the 2005 season while recovering from a mild stroke. During the 2005 season, the team lost several starters to injuries. The Patriots won the AFC East with a 10–6 record. The Patriots defeated the Jacksonville Jaguars 28–3 in the first round of the playoffs before losing to the Denver Broncos 27–13.

Here's the list of starters that were placed on IR:

47 Ryan Claridge ILB R
21 Randall Gay CB
37 Rodney Harrison S
67 Dan Koppen C
72 Matt Light OT
15 Michael McGrew WR UR
38 Tyrone Poole CB
30 Chad Scott CB
29 Guss Scott S
23 Duane Starks CB
99 Mike Wright NT UR

Other players who went placed on IR but missed signifcant playing time:

54 Tedy Bruschi ILB
86 Tim Dwight WR/KR
81 Bethel Johnson WR/KR
25 Chad Morton RB/KR

[festivus]

LOL Duane Starks. So that's where he went. Dade I am impressed and will immediately concede that Bill Belicheat is a superior coach to Brian Billick, though all I am sure would agree that even Belicheat was no wunderkind with the Browns.

[b-more_4_Life]

I think I may have found a team. The 2005 New England Patriots.

After the 2004 season, Belichick's top two coordinators, Charlie Weis and Romeo Crennel, left the team to pursue head coaching positions. Linebacker Tedy Bruschi missed half of the 2005 season while recovering from a mild stroke. During the 2005 season, the team lost several starters to injuries. The Patriots won the AFC East with a 10–6 record. The Patriots defeated the Jacksonville Jaguars 28–3 in the first round of the playoffs before losing to the Denver Broncos 27–13.

Here's the list of starters that were placed on IR:

47 Ryan Claridge ILB R
21 Randall Gay CB
37 Rodney Harrison S
67 Dan Koppen C
72 Matt Light OT
15 Michael McGrew WR UR
38 Tyrone Poole CB
30 Chad Scott CB
29 Guss Scott S
23 Duane Starks CB
99 Mike Wright NT UR

Other players who went placed on IR but missed signifcant playing time:

54 Tedy Bruschi ILB
86 Tim Dwight WR/KR
81 Bethel Johnson WR/KR
25 Chad Morton RB/KR

I was just about to post this Patriots team too.

Too bad I've driven Festivus to the nut house!

I'm glad you posted this since he's now blocking my post.

Happy Festivus!

[highwater]

And while I'm on this rant, I don't want to hear anybody complaining about him being wordy or using coach-speak. He is very communicative with the media and the fans. He just is, that's a fact. You won't get better from another coach.

It's too late to ask not to hear that complaint because it's already come up at least once in this thread, but I totally agree. It cracks me up when people complain that Billick uses words they don't understand, he talks over their head, etc. That's his fault, that you don't understand him???

I guess some so-called fans would rather have a coach that delivers boring, droning cliches at every press conference, but I personally like a coach who happens to be articulate. I think some people don't like the way he talks because they're not used to hearing NFL coaches talk like that, but I don't have a problem with it at all. Maybe some fans would rather have a coach like Joe Gibbs who had never heard of Madonna and doesn't know who the president is, but I don't.

[Greg]

How many of those players were Pro-Bowlers?

We got killed in that our 2 starting CBs went down and we lost Heap, Wilcox and D Williams as well as our best past rusher in Pryce. OGden isn't up to par and has missed a lot of time, as has many of our OL off and on. Our passing game went south and with Darling in you saw Sunday how much that hurt. And we couldn't stop the passing games of the likes of Cleo Lemon and Ted Ginn.

I haven't read one poster come up with a viable and available coach who they can make a reasonable case would be better than Billick. Look around the league and the HC carousel that spins around, there are a lot of HCs that are sub-Billick getting chance after chance.

[copenhaggard]

I haven't read one poster come up with a viable and available coach who they can make a reasonable case would be better than Billick. Look around the league and the HC carousel that spins around, there are a lot of HCs that are sub-Billick getting chance after chance.

I understand that that there aren't many, if any at all marquee head coaches sitting at home waiting for a job, but you can't just wait around for them.

Sometimes you have to interview coordinators who have done great jobs in prespective to their teams and talent. Sometimes you need to find a high character coach, with charisma, and some leadership skills. There are plenty of canidates that are ot there, but you have to find them.

The only way to do that is to look for them. I don't understand what some people are so afraid of change for? I mean, what do YOU expect Billick to CHANGE if he is HC next year?

So if the team isn't injured as much, especially on defense, do you think Billick is going to design some explosive offense? Or do you think he is going to rely on the defense to win games again?

Sure, point to his takeover as OC last year. He still reverted back to his old self for the Bills game and playoffs, although I really pin that loss mostly on poor play, with some of Billick's calls and decisions as a secondary reason. What happened this year? We weren't injured heavily every game. We still relied on the defense.

If the defense plays at a top level, especially in points allowed / turnovers, we'll always an average, sometimes above average team. But never a big winner, not in today's NFL.

I mean really, all it takes is a coach that has the balls to light a fire under the team's ass, as well as trust his team assistants. I can't name any canidates, because I never really looked into it. But please don't sit here and say there is no one out there ( that is available and plausible to hire )that is better than Billick at this point.

The team and the league is just different from when Billick started. He hasn't changed or adapted most of the time, and that's a big concern for me.