It is NOT the system!

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

I'm only going to expound on this once and then I am done with this issue....Brian Billick's REAL offensive system has NEVER been implemented with the Ravens until last year and it never fully developed last year either because it was new...Billick's offense is a hybrid of the Bill Walsh "West Coast Offense" which is a short pass oriented ball control offensive scheme...

Since he's been with the Ravens, Brian has not been able to run this offense because he's had HUGE run blocking O-linemen which are NOT suitable for pass blocking, they can pass block, but they'd rather run block, it's in their nature. There are exceptions like J.O., who can get down field and pass block for screen plays, but average as a pocket pass blocker. Big men on the O-line are less agile and it's harder for a BIG man to back peddle for passing situations...Ever heard Jonathan Ogden whine because he wished we'd run the ball more? I have way too many times...So, Brian's made this offense a ball control offense by the running back setting up the pass. And by bringing in a new running back this year, it has struggled with it's identity...


Billick's offense also uses the two tight end sets in which he can use one to chip block by helping pass or run block while the other can get out into the flats and get open for a pass up the middle. We haven't had Todd Heap and Daniel Wilcox almost all year to make this part of the offensive scheme...When we played the Patriots, you saw some of Billick's offense come to fruition..Wilcox got open for that touchdown and I saw quite a bit of line backer blocking that freed up (Willie) McGahee for some nice runs. They worked on those plays in the summer..They work if you have the men that have practiced them and are capable of doing them without flaw...

For the last few years, we've been drafting more athletic O-linemen which are more suitable for pass blocking..This is also another reason for getting rid of Edwin Mulitalo; he's just not suitable for running out into coverage and creating a pocket that can move for screen passes, he's more of a mauler for running...Same with Mike Flynn. And J.O. is just not healthy enough because of his foot problem...We've been plugging in tackles, centers and gaurds for this entire year just to make a line, any line...But it just isn't working out because you need offensive linemen to be together for a while to be able to "click" together..You can't just plug in three or four rookie linemen and make the "West Coast Offense" work. Last year worked out because they implemented Steve McNair who has a knowledge of the "West Coast Offense" but they also used some of the plays Steve was comfortable in doing and the O-line was stable and injury free for the most part!

This is what needs to happen now, we need to draft or pick up in free agency, a STARTING left tackle or center because Flynn and J.O. are done and I don't think Chester, Gaither or Terry are our future starters. Gaither should've been in his junior year at Maryland this year and he still has a year or two before he will become starting material in my opinion..They are adequate back-ups, but they have proven they can't do the job on a cosistent basis...There has been a lack of any kind of pocket for any QB to stay in. I don't follow just the ball and the players that are making the plays, I watch the line of scrimmage almost every play of every game and I am seriously concerned for any QB that is told to stay in the pocket and trust in the pocket, because there IS NO POCKET most of the time! I have my reserves about O-line coach Chris Foerester too..When he was at Miami, they had one of the worst O-lines in the league

I end this post by saying, this is not rocket science it's just some facts...I am also a Minnesota fan too since childhood, and I saw Billick's offense make the Vikings one of the most prolific offense's in the modern NFL era..He helped make Randy Moss, Robert Smith, Randall Cunningham, Warren Moon, Chris Carter..etc, into the players they became...Billick didn't make them the stars they became, but he used his offense and coaching skills to HELP make them who they were..They never made it to the Super Bowl because their defense wasn't up to par with their offense...I remember Brian Billick say, because of our AWESOME defense winning games and after going five games without a touch down and winning two of those games in our Super Bowl year, that he has done what he never wanted to do..."I have ventured over to the darkside"...Do you all remember that? We need to face the facts here: YOU CAN'T RUN BILLICK'S OFFENSE WITHOUT THE PLAYERS THAT CAN PERFORM THE PLAYS! I am not a Billick apologist, just a football fan who is tired of the endless bashing of a man that took our team to a Super Bowl and won it in a way he didn't want to in the first place! Now you all can have it! :patriot:

[JonG316]

You're right, I even remember Willis telling me during a commercial break earlier this year that this was supposed to be a two TE/three WR offense from the start but they couldn't do any of that cause of the injuries they've had since the first game of the year.

The only thing I disagree with you on is I think Terry can and will start at LT next season and be pretty good.

[RockyMRaven]

I'm only going to expound on this once and then I am done with this issue....Brian Billick's REAL offensive system has NEVER been implemented with the Ravens until last year and it never fully developed last year either because it was new...Billick's offense is a hybrid of the Bill Walsh "West Coast Offense" which is a short pass oriented ball control offensive scheme...

Brian has not been able to run this offense because he's had HUGE run blocking O-linemen which are NOT suitable for pass blocking, they can pass block, but they'd rather run block, it's in their nature. So Brian's made this offense a ball control offense by the running back setting up the pass and by bringing in a new running back this year, it has struggled with it's identity...Big men on the O-line are less agile and it's harder for a BIG man to back peddle for passing situations...Ever heard Jonathan Ogden whine because he wished we'd run the ball more? I have way too many times...

Billick's offense also uses the two tight end sets in which he can use one to chip block by helping pass or run block while the other can get out into the flats and get open for a pass up the middle. We haven't had Todd Heap and Daniel Wilcox almost all year to make this part of the offensive scheme...When we played the Patriots, you saw some of Billick's offense come to fruition..Wilcox got open for that touchdown and I saw quite a bit of line backer blocking that freed up (Willie) McGahee for some nice runs. They worked on those plays in the summer..They work if you have the men that have practiced them and are capable of doing them without flaw...

For the last few years, we've been drafting more athletic O-linemen which are more suitable for pass blocking..This is also another reason for getting rid of Edwin Mulitalo; he's just not suitable for running out into coverage and creating a pocket that can move for screen passes, he's more of a mauler for running...Same with Mike Flynn. And J.O. is just not healthy enough because of his foot problem...We've been plugging in tackles, centers and gaurds for this entire year just to make a line, any line...But it just isn't working out because you need offensive linemen to be together for a while to be able to "click" together..You can't just plug in three or four rookie linemen and make the "West Coast Offense" work. Last year worked out because they implemented Steve McNair who has a knowledge of the "West Coast Offense" but they also used some of the plays Steve was comfortable in doing and the O-line was stable and injury free for the most part!

This is what needs to happen now, we need to draft or pick up in free agency, a STARTING left tackle or center because Flynn and J.O. are done and I don't think Chester, Gaither or Terry are our future starters. Gaither should've been in his junior year at Maryland this year and he still has a year or two before he will become starting material in my opinion..They are adequate back-ups, but they have proven they can't do the job on a cosistent basis...There has been a lack of any kind of pocket for any QB to stay in. I don't follow just the ball and the players that are making the plays, I watch the line of scrimmage almost every play of every game and I am seriously concerned for any QB that is told to stay in the pocket and trust in the pocket, because there IS NO POCKET most of the time! I have my reserves about O-line coach Chris Foerester too..When he was at Miami, they had one of the worst O-lines in the league

I end this post by saying, this is not rocket science it's just some facts...I am also a Minnesota fan too since childhood, and I saw Billick's offense make the Vikings one of the most prolific offense's in the modern NFL era..He helped make Randy Moss, Robert Smith, Randall Cunningham, Warren Moon, Chris Carter..etc, into the players they became...Billick didn't make them the stars they became, but he used his offense and coaching skills to HELP make them who they were..They never made it to the Super Bowl because their defense wasn't up to par with their offense...I remember Brian Billick say, because of our AWESOME defense winning games and after going five games without a touch down and winning two of those games in our Super Bowl year, that he has done what he never wanted to do..."I have ventured over to the darkside"...Do you all remember that? I am not a Billick apologist, just a football fan who is tired of the endless bashing of a man that took our team to a Super Bowl and won it in a way he didn't want to in the first place! Now you all can have it! :patriot:

I'm right there with you, Tspot. I have serious reservations about Foerster as well. When the Ravens hired him, my Dolphan husband said "I sure hope your front office knows what it's doing. That guy was the worst offensive line coach we have ever had. The line sucked when he was coaching it". And I agree with you that I'm sick of the anti-Billick hysteria that has been sweeping these boards. He bears responsibility for some of the things that have made this season into such a disaster, but he gets blamed for EVERYTHING, including the injuries.

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

I'm right there with you, Tspot. I have serious reservations about Foerster as well. When the Ravens hired him, my Dolphan husband said "I sure hope your front office knows what it's doing. That guy was the worst offensive line coach we have ever had. The line sucked when he was coaching it". And I agree with you that I'm sick of the anti-Billick hysteria that has been sweeping these boards. He bears responsibility for some of the things that have made this season into such a disaster, but he gets blamed for EVERYTHING, including the injuries.

And the anti-Billick hysteria will continue to go on, because of an un-named writer who hates the man...:nerd:

[darb72]

It's not Anti-Billick hysteria, at least from my end.

Sure there are a few holes we need filled, and have forever. A scary WR would help, so would a good offensive line (ask folks how long I've been begging for that one).

There have been some mind-numbingly stupid decisions this year. The two times we had the ball in short yards late in a game and threw the dang thing are the most glaring in my mind. Ever notice everybody on the board can pick out which play is coming next? If we can, I promise you the DCs can. Billick calls the plays.

Yes our offensive line is awful. Agent 6 and I started cussing the instant we hired the drooling butt-monkey Forester. He's more inept than Cavanaugh and that is an accomplishment. That falls on Billick though. The job isn't getting done, hold people accountable.

Lack of talent at WR and OL I'll put on Ozzies head. They need to bring me in, give me a second rounder and a fourth rounder and I'll have them two starting quality linemen this year. Receivers... eh, I'm not so good at.

There's plenty of blame to go around, yes. However the head coach is responsible for what's on the field. Last year we went 13-3 and Billick was in everybodys good graces. This year we're staring 4-12 right in the eye and he needs to be blamed for a large chunk of that.

[ravensfan1996]

Isnt a head coach suppose to make decisions and changes?? if his "system" needs TE's and WR's and we dont have any, why keep running the same offense? I understand you cant revamp a whole system during the system but maybe some changes! Ive always liked Billick til this year...now it just seems like its time for a change. He himself said coaches should last about 10years before they have run their course.

His lack of clock managment, calling pass when you should run, and other absurdities have now run their course. Im done with him and want a change. You cant argue the fact that all this time the offense hasnt changed one bit with different players. So it is Billick IMO. Billick is the constant.

[plesiosaur]

And the anti-Billick hysteria will continue to go on, because of an un-named writer who hates the man...:nerd:

I heard Mr. Un-named slagging all over Billick and the Ravens as a whole on Friday. What a jerk.:thumbdown:

[HoustonRaven]

My God, this may be the most utterly uninformed thread I've come across this season.

I love it when I hear people go on about the West Coast Offense as if it's some mystical thing that requires "specific players" and all this mumbo jumbo. It's NOT some fancy and complex "system". You all may as well be arguing it's the Tuesday night lasagna at training camp that should not be the blame for this season because they are about as equally non-relevant

Wake up and smell the proverbial coffee folks. All a WCO is a shift in emphasis! That's all. Nothing special. Instead of rushing to open up the options, WCO uses passing to open up the offense.

QB's still have to throw the ball. WR's still have to catch the ball. RB's still have to run the ball. Linemen still have to block. And the team still needs to NOT GET PENALTIES!

Now is you had said lets not blame the SCHEME maybe???

So yes, I agree. God help us, not matter what you do, dont blame the system. Let's also be sure to not blame global warming, abortion, gun control .....

[HoustonRaven]

WOW!!! Eight years and he still has not been able to get it right!! I do not think you can say it is not the system after EIGHT!!!! FRICKIN!!! YEARS!!!!

Agreed. After 8 years, a pro coach is supposed to have found a way to figure it out.

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

WOW!!! Eight years and he still has not been able to get it right!! I do not think you can say it is not the system after EIGHT!!!! FRICKIN!!! YEARS!!!!

You my friend should read my post before you spill your hatered...:eyes: You have your mind already made up....:nerd:

[festivus]

We've had an effective offense here in Baltimore in the last nine years. Setting aside the year we had *only* a ground game and still made it to the playoffs, in 03, we had 01 with Grbac and last year with McNair. The wheels fell off the cart in week 16 last year, but I don't see how you can blame the system when the 'system' worked fine weeks 1 - 16 then suddenly McNair can't hit the broad side of a barn if it's more than 10 yards away.

And with Grbac there was *nothing* wrong with our passing attack, we had other problems, but passing the ball was not one of them.

Since 1999, until last year when finally we had all the pieces, our offense was put together out of popsicle sticks and chewing gum. Despite significant deficits in personnel for the passing game (most seasons) or the running game (2001) we have eked out a respectable few years.

Houston Raven and Raven Nurse please take your short term memories somewhere else, please.

Thanks!

In general I agree with Darb, there is enough blame to go around, and BB bears some responsibility for the bad times and gets some credit for the good. On the one had, our offense has struggled for a lot of his tenure here, but on the other, most of the $$$ has been for defense, and a number of the high end offensive acquisitions (Searcy, Taylor, Boller, McNair from Bills game->), have not panned out as much as we'd have liked. It's not like Travis Taylor, or Qadry Ismail, etc. etc. left here and went straight to the Pro Bowl.

Your point about the injuries is important, and particularly the point about needing 2 TEs.

Really we were in deep doo doo when Pryce went down, and the whole thing just went further off the tracks from there.

Good post TSpot!

[camdenyard]

had HUGE run blocking O-linemen which are NOT suitable for pass blocking, they can pass block, but they'd rather run block

Who asked them what they would "rather do"? :187734:


This is what needs to happen now, we need to draft or pick up in free agency, a STARTING left tackle or center because Flynn and J.O. are done and I don't think Chester, Gaither or Terry are our future starters... They are adequate back-ups, but they have proven they can't do the job on a cosistent basis...

What has Gaither proven? Nothing, he has what, a grand total of 2-3 NFL games? JHC, you sound like the dudes who proclaim that Troy Smith can't be successful when he hasn't had a fair shot.


I end this post by saying, this is not rocket science it's just some facts...I am also a Minnesota fan too since childhood, and I saw Billick's offense make the Vikings one of the most prolific offense's in the modern NFL era..He helped make Randy Moss, Robert Smith, Randall Cunningham, Warren Moon, Chris Carter..etc, into the players they became...Billick didn't make them the stars they became, but he used his offense and coaching skills to HELP make them who they were

That team had success because the PLAYERS were OUTSTANDING, period. Funny with your rant about the Ravens O-line you conveniently leave out the fact that the Vikes' O-line was flat-out DOMINANT. Practically any OC could have done what Billick did with those weapons.

I am a Billick siupporter, but please, if the last 9 years have proven anything it is that in any offense it is 90% players that determine success or failure.

[HoustonRaven]

Houston Raven and Raven Nurse please take your short term memories somewhere else, please.

What team have you been watching? Because it hasnt been the Ravens. And what does "short term" mean? Because Im thinking about our offense since Billick got here.

When have the Ravens ever finished in the top 16 on offense? Maybe last year they did but I dont think so. I think we finished out the season as the number 18 ranked offense. I am guessing on the number but Im confident I am close.

So on a year by year basis, we finish mid pack and some how that translates into a "good offense"??? All the "offensive genius" can muster is mid-pack offense and thats ok with you all?

Because I dont know about everyone else, but I strive to be at the top of the heap, not mid pack, on everything I do. And demanding the same from my beloved team isnt a bad thing.

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

That team had success because the PLAYERS were OUTSTANDING, period. Funny with your rant about the Ravens O-line you conveniently leave out the fact that the Vikes' O-line was flat-out DOMINANT. Practically any OC could have done what Billick did with those weapons.

I am a Billick siupporter, but please, if the last 9 years have proven anything it is that in any offense it is 90% players that determine success or failure.

Dude..That was one of my main issues..Sorry if I didn't add about the Vikes O-line.We don't have the players to perform what needs to be performed...:eyes:

[RavenScallywag]

I disagree about Chester, this is his first year with real playing experience, I think he will go on to be a good Center in the NFL. He just needs time like Jason Brown had to work out the kinks.

As for your comments on LT, I might agree, except is there any guys that would likely be there at 6-8 that would be franchise LT like JO was? I don't know much about this draft coming out, but looking at the current mocks, there's Jake Long, who's expected to be gone by pick 5 and may have to be a RT. Ryan Clady and Sam Baker are the best LT there, but are they top 10 guys? The question then is, do we trade down to get one of those two, and pickup an extra pick in the 2nd round to address CB/QB? Or do we just try to wait the LT spot out for a year and let Terry/Gaither get their shot?

[festivus]

What team have you been watching? Because it hasnt been the Ravens. And what does "short term" mean? Because Im thinking about our offense since Billick got here.

The Ravens. Which post have you been reading? ;)

The 'short term memory' thing was a suggestion that you are forgetting that, for '01, '03, and most of '06 we *did* have an effective offense, in '01 and '06 through the air. This was all the more remarkable in '01 and '03, when we had woeful shortcomings on that side of the ball, but somehow we won anyway.

I don't really care where the offense ranks, as long as the team is winning. I am pretty sure the FO's philosophy is the same, which is why they have made historically such a lopsided investment in the team, though that's changing.

[HoustonRaven]

The Ravens. Which post have you been reading? ;)

The 'short term memory' thing was a suggestion that you are forgetting that, for '01, '03, and most of '06 we *did* have an effective offense, in '01 and '06 through the air. This was all the more remarkable in '01 and '03, when we had woeful shortcomings on that side of the ball, but somehow we won anyway.

I don't really care where the offense ranks, as long as the team is winning. I am pretty sure the FO's philosophy is the same, which is why they have made historically such a lopsided investment in the team, though that's changing.

I see your point but isnt your definition of an "effective" offense really an offense that doesnt get in the way of winning?

[festivus]

No. It's an offense that does its part to contribute to winning.

[purplepoe]

I am a Billick siupporter, but please, if the last 9 years have proven anything it is that in any offense it is 90% players that determine success or failure.

Ding Ding Ding!

We have a winner.

PP

[AZRAVEN]

I believe it IS the system from this perspective. I am in total agreement that Billick has never had the correct personnel to implement his system effectively. Where he has failed so miserably IMO is that KNOWING he didn't have the personnel hasn't caused him to put his 10,000 play playbook aside until he does have the proper personnel and instead implementing SOME kind of system that will work with what he has. I realize it would be hard, considering our OL and WR's have sucked for years and we were "blessed" with RB's that didn't want to be here (Priest, Chester and Jamal all left because they were unhappy here) but that is his job and that is what successful head coaches have done over the years. It isn't always possible to have all the pieces needed. So when life gives you lemons make lemonade or lemon pie don't try to make German chocolate or Bavarian tortes.

[4G63]

I believe it IS the system from this perspective. I am in total agreement that Billick has never had the correct personnel to implement his system effectively. Where he has failed so miserably IMO is that KNOWING he didn't have the personnel hasn't caused him to put his 10,000 play playbook aside until he does have the proper personnel and instead implementing SOME kind of system that will work with what he has. I realize it would be hard, considering our OL and WR's have sucked for years and we were "blessed" with RB's that didn't want to be here (Priest, Chester and Jamal all left because they were unhappy here) but that is his job and that is what successful head coaches have done over the years. It isn't always possible to have all the pieces needed. So when life gives you lemons make lemonade or lemon pie don't try to make German chocolate or Bavarian tortes.

:iagree:

Thats what good coaches do!......They make changes to compensate for lack of personnel on the field and use what you have to your advantage. Billick IMO has never done this.....

[highwater]

So when life gives you lemons make lemonade or lemon pie don't try to make German chocolate or Bavarian tortes.

Hmmm . . . I'm trying to figure out if I think that line is brilliant or just out of left field, but I like it.

But I think I agree with the basic premise here, about working your system around what you have as a team. I actually think Billick has done that to some degree, but it could be better. After all, if you have exactly the personnel you want, coaching would be pretty easy.

[festivus]

In 2003 we had no passing game. So we ran the ball over and over and over and over and over again, all the way into the playoffs, with absolute *crap* for a passing attack. Not only did our scheme 'adapt', just as it had in '01 without Jamal, but the scheme made something where there easily could have been nothing.

The accusation that Billick has made no effort, or an ineffective effort, to adjust is not supported by the history of the team.

:2c:

[awalt]

This is a crazy thread.

It is exactly BECAUSE it's been 10 years that one can say for certainty that the system is at least partially, if not fully, to blame.

If his system is so intricate it needs such a unique set of players to pull off, it's a bad system.

If his system is not working because he has not had the right kind of offensive lineman, than that's his fault as coach, who has plenty of input on the types of players the team needs. If he wasn't getting any input on what kind of players he wanted, he would have quit.

If his system isn't working because of regular turnover of players, well guess what, that's a bad system too because in the NFL world of free agency that's a fact of life.

BB caught lightening in a bottle with the talent he had on the Vikings - that seems pretty clear now. We can also see the equation based on what the Patriots have done this year -- Moss is a pretty unique WR, if you have at least 1 WR who can make plays and keep defenses honest with Moss, a QB who can make plays, and a good OL, you set an all time scoring record. The Pats have shown you don't even really need a running game, the Vikes had one then.

I have to agree with Preston on this one - to say it's not the system at least in laarge part after 10 years is really being naive.

[camdenyard]

Awalt's post is the best one I've seen on this board in at least 2 months.

The man knows his football :thumbup:

[festivus]

Awalt's post is the best one I've seen on this board in at least 2 months.

The man knows his football :thumbup:

I dunno. Seems like a typical denial of the fact that the offense *has* had some decent years, and has seen a lot of changes in scheme as well. You can't tell me the offense we were running this year is the same as it was last year, or Jamal's 2000+ year, or Grbac's year. Those were different offensive schemes.

Anyway I have no problem trashing the offensive scheme with a new OC. I just think it's incorrect as a matter of fact to say the offense has been horrible the whole time Billick has been here. It is just plain wrong. It's been bad *most* of the time, which isn't good enough, but there are glaring absences on the offensive side of the ball that account for that, at least in part.

I am of the opinion that anyone stating an extreme opinion on this board, something like "X is because Y always Z," is normally wrong. I wonder if I should change the "normally" to "always." Hm.

Anyway, :2c:.

[Dont Know]

We have never been able to overcome a 14 point deficit due to our O.

This isn't true, we overcame a 19 point deficit against the Titans last year (2006) with 2 McNair touchdowns and 2 fieldgoals.

While 19 points strictly speaking isn't 14, 19 > 14 so this should be applicable.

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

I believe it IS the system from this perspective. I am in total agreement that Billick has never had the correct personnel to implement his system effectively. Where he has failed so miserably IMO is that KNOWING he didn't have the personnel hasn't caused him to put his 10,000 play playbook aside until he does have the proper personnel and instead implementing SOME kind of system that will work with what he has. I realize it would be hard, considering our OL and WR's have sucked for years and we were "blessed" with RB's that didn't want to be here (Priest, Chester and Jamal all left because they were unhappy here) but that is his job and that is what successful head coaches have done over the years. It isn't always possible to have all the pieces needed. So when life gives you lemons make lemonade or lemon pie don't try to make German chocolate or Bavarian tortes.

Sorry AZ, but your retort is wrong! He used a different way to control the ball other than short pass' when he first came to the Ravens...They have drafted more atheletic O-linemen in the past two years with Chester, Brown and Grubbs....He was starting to implement his true system these past two years and it was going to really get off the this year. Then the injuries to KEY players on the O-line, tight end, QB's and wideout positions with D. Williams..What is so hard about understanding this:229031_confused2: He used Jamal Lewis as a ball control back to set up the pass with thos HUGE O-linemen.....You really don't get it do you:insane:

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

:iagree:

Thats what good coaches do!......They make changes to compensate for lack of personnel on the field and use what you have to your advantage. Billick IMO has never done this.....

You my friend, are WRONG:insane:

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

In 2003 we had no passing game. So we ran the ball over and over and over and over and over again, all the way into the playoffs, with absolute *crap* for a passing attack. Not only did our scheme 'adapt', just as it had in '01 without Jamal, but the scheme made something where there easily could have been nothing.

The accusation that Billick has made no effort, or an ineffective effort, to adjust is not supported by the history of the team.

:2c:

:worthy: :iagree:

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

This is a crazy thread.

It is exactly BECAUSE it's been 10 years that one can say for certainty that the system is at least partially, if not fully, to blame.

If his system is so intricate it needs such a unique set of players to pull off, it's a bad system.

If his system is not working because he has not had the right kind of offensive lineman, than that's his fault as coach, who has plenty of input on the types of players the team needs. If he wasn't getting any input on what kind of players he wanted, he would have quit.

If his system isn't working because of regular turnover of players, well guess what, that's a bad system too because in the NFL world of free agency that's a fact of life.

BB caught lightening in a bottle with the talent he had on the Vikings - that seems pretty clear now. We can also see the equation based on what the Patriots have done this year -- Moss is a pretty unique WR, if you have at least 1 WR who can make plays and keep defenses honest with Moss, a QB who can make plays, and a good OL, you set an all time scoring record. The Pats have shown you don't even really need a running game, the Vikes had one then.

I have to agree with Preston on this one - to say it's not the system at least in laarge part after 10 years is really being naive.


What a load:193:

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

Now take off your purple glasses. How did we fair with Jamal's big year? One and done? Dude, seriously, you think we have ever had an O under Billick....WTF...We have never been able to overcome a 14 point deficit due to our O. This is common knowledge...I was going to argue with you but damn.....this is common knowledge with every fact/ stat in the world backing me up!!! Question where was the offense ranked when Jamal had his big year....Just wanted to hear you say it....:insane:


:193:

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

My God, this may be the most utterly uninformed thread I've come across this season.

I love it when I hear people go on about the West Coast Offense as if it's some mystical thing that requires "specific players" and all this mumbo jumbo. It's NOT some fancy and complex "system". You all may as well be arguing it's the Tuesday night lasagna at training camp that should not be the blame for this season because they are about as equally non-relevant

Wake up and smell the proverbial coffee folks. All a WCO is a shift in emphasis! That's all. Nothing special. Instead of rushing to open up the options, WCO uses passing to open up the offense.

QB's still have to throw the ball. WR's still have to catch the ball. RB's still have to run the ball. Linemen still have to block. And the team still needs to NOT GET PENALTIES!

Now is you had said lets not blame the SCHEME maybe???

So yes, I agree. God help us, not matter what you do, dont blame the system. Let's also be sure to not blame global warming, abortion, gun control .....

Houston, your same old blabber bores me:193:

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

:193: :193: great post, very creative....care to have an educated opinion

:eyes: what---EVERRRR:laugh:

[festivus]

Umm, in this thread Raven Nurse, I'm not sure Tspot is the one contributing conspicuously nothing. That would be *you*. :brickwall:

[HoustonRaven]

Houston, your same old blabber bores me:193:

Get a new comeback. It's one thing to say someone bores you and then have facts. It's quite another to say it and then leave it dangling like the 3 incher in your pants.

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

Get a new comeback. It's one thing to say someone bores you and then have facts. It's quite another to say it and then leave it dangling like the 3 incher in your pants.

:34853_waah:

[darb72]

Anybody want to explain our red-zone woes? Huge part of the problem right there. Admittedly Jamal is quite possibly the worst short-yardage runner in the history of the NFL, but we have had decent goal-line WRs. The really tall guy who could leap but is worthless between the 20s? Two TDs against the Jets two years ago... dang I forgot his name. Heap and Wilcox are good TEs in the RZ. Boller and McNair both have speed to get out of the pocket.

Our offense plays not to lose. That's the crux of the argument right there.

[highwater]

The really tall guy who could leap but is worthless between the 20s? Two TDs against the Jets two years ago... dang I forgot his name.

Clarence Moore? LOL, I never thought we'd be talking about him wistfully.

Heap is actually our best red zone receiver, IMO, but unfortunately he basically took this year off. Not that it was his fault, but his absence was a real loss for the offense.

[festivus]

Now take off your purple glasses. How did we fair with Jamal's big year?

We got all the way to the playoffs with *no* passing game. We had crap for offensive personnel and made it to the playoffs!

Refreshing your recollection. . . The year was 2003. Under center was Kyle Boller, until about half way through the season. Then he was replaced by Anthony freakin' Wright, whose top two wideouts were Travis Taylor and Marcus Robinson, from the 'Where are they now' column. Making it to the playoffs that year was overachieving, Raven Nurse. It was a year to be proud of.

[Rochardrik]

We got all the way to the playoffs with *no* passing game. We had crap for offensive personnel and made it to the playoffs!

Refreshing your recollection. . . The year was 2003. Under center was Kyle Boller, until about half way through the season. Then he was replaced by Anthony freakin' Wright, whose top two wideouts were Travis Taylor and Marcus Robinson, from the 'Where are they now' column. Making it to the playoffs that year was overachieving, Raven Nurse. It was a year to be proud of.

That year AW led us to a 17? point comeback against the Seahawks.... which I listened to outside the stadium in P. lot B. ( My party wanted to leave, and I made it out the door before they did, and they stayed after the first score on the comeback trail.... and the bums at the gate wouldn't let me "return"!):187734: :thumbdown:

[UKRavenStockers]

Take the heat off the system all you want, last year showed it's not that bad a system. What is a massive problem though is that our offensive coaches (Billick remaining the only constant just about) are absolutely woeful at making in game and in season adjustments. We are one of if not the worst team in the league at responding to other teams' adjustments in my opinion. Yes we've had injuries this year and that'll hurt anyone, but where have the adjustments been to diminish the impact of those injuries? Answer, there haven't been any, we've just beligerently hammered away with the same old tactics, not responding and adjusting to adversity. It's a avery poor coaching job in my opinion with the lack of adjustments.

[purplepoe]

Take the heat off the system all you want, last year showed it's not that bad a system. What is a massive problem though is that our offensive coaches (Billick remaining the only constant just about) are absolutely woeful at making in game and in season adjustments. We are one of if not the worst team in the league at responding to other teams' adjustments in my opinion. Yes we've had injuries this year and that'll hurt anyone, but where have the adjustments been to diminish the impact of those injuries? Answer, there haven't been any, we've just beligerently hammered away with the same old tactics, not responding and adjusting to adversity. It's a avery poor coaching job in my opinion with the lack of adjustments.

I'd say the coach most guilty of not adjusting is Rex Ryan.

He's still coaching like we've got a healthy Rolle/McAlister combo back there.

PP

[UKRavenStockers]

I'd say the coach most guilty of not adjusting is Rex Ryan.

He's still coaching like we've got a healthy Rolle/McAlister combo back there.

PP

That's entirely true, should've lumped him in with Billick there.

[4G63]

You my friend, are WRONG:insane:

Negative, you are WRONG!!!! How often has Billick made a change to the team (sub Boller for McNair) that was obvious to EVERYONE but himself?

Look, maybe (probably) there is more going on than what we see.....Maybe, just maybe, McNair was Bisciotti's/Ozzie's guy? That would explain why they let him play longer than was advised and why Billick has such confidence that he'll be returning.......we can speculate all we want but the simple fact is Bisciotti is the one holding all the cards and he may have given Billick a pass for the year already!

My statement rings true with most fans I meet; that Billick doesn't have a "feel" for the game like other coaches do! Miami at the end and Buffalo at the end stick out in my mind! It seems like he "out-thinks" himself into a hole. Remember this statement from Football 101: Keep doing what works until they stop you!!! If you're averaging 4yds per carry then continue to run the ball until they stop you......Billick cannot grasp that concept IMO......

[festivus]

Ok, what was our strength in 03? And what did we use?

[festivus]

Negative, you are WRONG!!!! How often has Billick made a change to the team (sub Boller for McNair) that was obvious to EVERYONE but himself?

Look, maybe (probably) there is more going on than what we see.....Maybe, just maybe, McNair was Bisciotti's/Ozzie's guy? That would explain why they let him play longer than was advised and why Billick has such confidence that he'll be returning.......we can speculate all we want but the simple fact is Bisciotti is the one holding all the cards and he may have given Billick a pass for the year already!

My statement rings true with most fans I meet; that Billick doesn't have a "feel" for the game like other coaches do! Miami at the end and Buffalo at the end stick out in my mind! It seems like he "out-thinks" himself into a hole. Remember this statement from Football 101: Keep doing what works until they stop you!!! If you're averaging 4yds per carry then continue to run the ball until they stop you......Billick cannot grasp that concept IMO......

McNair is somebody else's "guy"?

Billick wants to win. Swapping quarterbacks when necessary is part of that goal. Unfortunately this year, as in most years since Grbac left, there is not a good quarterback to *put* there. It's Occam's Razor - the simplest explanation is the best. Billick wants to win, you may disagree about his method, but all this bullshit about who is whose 'guy', or 'boy', or 'son', depending on whose post you read, is just that. Bullshit. And I think it all comes from an illusion many fans have, that someone or other from our QB unit is actually capable of being a good starter at this point in his career. Because none of them is that guy, at least this season.

Anyway on to the next point. Fans always want to go for it on 4th down, and (apparently) fans think 3d and 1 (or 2d and 1) is a running down, when that is *not* the case, across the NFL plenty of teams throw regularly on 3d and 1. They just do. When those passes are completed, people forget. I guess when the passes fall incomplete, fans remember, and the coach never gets to live it down. Part of being a coach I suppose, though he's not the one under center, it's just what happens.

Concerning a "feel" for the game, I am marginally better than my son at Madden '03. We play all the time, and I feel like I have a "feel" for the game.

But real NFL games are NOT Madden '03, and your personal 'feel for the game', and that of the other fans you talk to, is worth about as much as mine, or my son's, and he's only eight. All these board 'experts', the Monday morning quarterbacks who could have called a better game, just make me :grbac:. Get over yourselves, the coach is not some village idiot, he's making do with the best he can with the crappy talent we have on the field this year.

Billick did, by the way, get around to 'subbing Boller for McNair,' when it turned out McNair was hurt. How'd that turn out? Has it helped? Maybe if only he'd made the switch sooner, we could have lost *more* games with Boller, instead of losing them with McNair!

*sigh*

Not that Billick is blameless, of course he bears some responsibility for this disaster of a season. But with our injuries we were never going to be any good, and even perfectly healthy we've gotten *nothing* from the quarterback position this year.

I think many fans overestimate the amount of talent we've had on the field. Perhaps if they understand that injuries *matter*, they will be less prone to blame the head coach. Or not.

*sigh* Again.

[highwater]

*sigh* Again.

Good grief festivus, you sound like Charlie Brown at Christmas with all those sighs!

I agree with most of your points, however -- the second-guessing of Billick's calls has gotten out of hand (and I say that as someone who has second-guessed him too). He got ripped when he passed when we thought he should have run (Bills) and then got ripped when he ran in a similiar situation (Dolphins). If it works, he's a genius, if it doesn't, he's an idiot who "doesn't have a feel for the game."

But that's to be expected when you have a losing record. Just take a deep breath and sigh one more time and move on.

[festivus]

Raven Nurse, I am a touch embarrassed I wasted so much time trying to address you. Looking back at your posts I see you contribute nothing but snarky sarcasm and general hater-fan speak, adding nothing to an argument besides instigating with inaccurate and unsupported generalizations.

Oh well. At least I entertained Highwater.

[highwater]

Thank god for Marvin and our D!!!

LOL at your logic -- you think Billick caught lightening in a bottle in Minnesota but you're thanking Marvin Lewis for the Super Bowl win? You don't think he may have caught lightening in a bottle with the players he had on defense? Have you seen what his defense has been like in Cincy? Here's a news flash for you -- his defense with the Bengals has sucked every year!

And please don't tell us what the players think about Billick, because you don't know. I am very tired of windbags who pretend to know what the players think.

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

Get a new comeback. It's one thing to say someone bores you and then have facts. It's quite another to say it and then leave it dangling like the 3 incher in your pants.

and you didn't have to attack me personally Houston:cool:

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

Not that Billick is blameless, of course he bears some responsibility for this disaster of a season. But with our injuries we were never going to be any good, and even perfectly healthy we've gotten *nothing* from the quarterback position this year.

I think many fans overestimate the amount of talent we've had on the field. Perhaps if they understand that injuries *matter*, they will be less prone to blame the head coach. Or not.

*sigh* Again.
:eek: Three rookies on the O-line at one time on many occasions and two rookies most of the year on the right side, could be the problem with our QB situation:eyes:

[highwater]

I love that that the archive goes way back.....Highwater the FLIP FLOPPER!!!


highwater highwater is online now
Pro Bowl 24x7 Raven

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,217
Re: One big weakness to our offense...
Quote:
Originally Posted by postalworker View Post
We have the weapons to go deep, we just can't execute.
I think that sums it up pretty well. I don't know if it's because McNair can't throw a good long ball, or if the coaches don't want to call those plays, or perhaps a combination of the above -- maybe the coaches don't have confidence in McNair to throw bombs.

Whatever the reason, I don't think the receivers are the problem.

I have absolutely no idea what you think you accomplished with this, or why you think the above post makes me a flip flopper, but I don't really care because you appear to be totally clueless.

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

LOL at your logic -- you think Billick caught lightening in a bottle in Minnesota but you're thanking Marvin Lewis for the Super Bowl win? You don't think he may have caught lightening in a bottle with the players he had on defense? Have you seen what his defense has been like in Cincy? Here's a news flash for you -- his defense with the Bengals has sucked every year!

And please don't tell us what the players think about Billick, because you don't know. I am very tired of windbags who pretend to know what the players think.

Marvin's defense sucked before Billick got her..Brian was going to let him go for Gunther from K.C. Marvin's defense lost many of games for our 6-10 Ravens the year before Billick got here if I remember correctly:229031_confused2:

[festivus]

OK azzhole, this ones for you. In eight years we have had zero offense. There has been ample time to get "his type" offensive players in place. The players do not support him. This is a major problem with this team because his players do not support his "system" or lack there of. Now dumb ass supports like you will tell me they do support him...and I will again tell you they dont and you can ask any insider or simply read between the lines in press conferences or listen to radio shows or listen to past player AKA Shannon Sharpe Deion etc...
We have always been in the lower half of total offense and always relied on our D as his crutch. You do realize that our SB year we went 6 games without scoring an offensive TD. Thank god for Marvin and our D!!! His play calling has always been abysmal. 3 or 4th and 1 at the goal line and we are supposedly an running team and we throw. WTF How many of those have we seen. Again, 8 years is alot of DP's and free agents to get "his type" of players in here to fit his system!! Stop making excuses!!! If it were not for our D coord's we would be where the Bengals were 5 years ago!!!! Oh, more of my negative talk, if BB stays our coach, we will be worse next year than this year. As someone posted earlier...BB caught lightening in a bottle with Minnesota and has never been able to duplicate the throw it up and let Randy catch it type of offense. Give me randy moss and I will be the offensive guru too. Again how many facts do you need that says we need a new signal caller and head coach that has the respect of his players!!! I guess you missed the Miami game where the camera showed coaches and players yelling at the coach to go for it!!! No confidence in his players to get 1/2 a yard....therefore no confidence in the coach by the players!!! Enough substance for you. Now... I will be there in my seat on Sunday screaming for my team and most likely getting bailed out of jail for knocking some inbred Steeler fan in the head. Never question my knowledge or input....You just cant hang.......:taz:

:rolling:

So. I am an azzhole and a dumbass, and this is how you support your "argument." For those normally reluctant to read walls of text, I encourage you nevertheless to take the time to read this entire jewel. :rolleyes:

You're a joke, RN. It's ok, I'm glad the boards still have a clown or two to kick around.

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

OK azzhole, this ones for you. In eight years we have had zero offense. There has been ample time to get "his type" offensive players in place. The players do not support him. This is a major problem with this team because his players do not support his "system" or lack there of. Now dumb ass supports like you will tell me they do support him...and I will again tell you they dont and you can ask any insider or simply read between the lines in press conferences or listen to radio shows or listen to past player AKA Shannon Sharpe Deion etc...




It's funny how Quadry Ishmial said last night ON THE RADIO, that his playbook with the Colts was the exact same playbook he had with the Ravens:229031_confused2: He said that the player weren't executing them:cool:

[highwater]

:For those normally reluctant to read walls of text, I encourage you nevertheless to take the time to read this entire jewel. :rolleyes:

I actually did read it, and I feel dumber for having read it. :grbac:

I don't mind engaging in a spirited debate with someone who can intelligently present a point of view that is different than mine, but this guy appears to have the IQ of a root vegetable. He doesn't even make sense. Well, it takes all kinds, etc.

[crazyraven]

I encourage you nevertheless to take the time to read this entire jewel.
You're right, It was a fun read. I especially like the post where he called HW a flip-flopper with out any reason or cause. :laugh:

[Fanman]

when the system has been broken for NINE years...it IS the system.

Man....this is a joke.

FM

[Rochardrik]

2 things, 1st, the refs blew that game by not stopping the clock and by blowing a clear fisrt down by Seahawks. 2nd, please do not isolate 1 or 2 games in 8 years to prove we have an offense. 8 years very littler offense. We do not use our strengths and our weaknesses are greatly exposed!!
I'm sorry, I guess I gave the impression that I thought we had an offense. I do not! I was just pointing out, or I intended to, that once or twice, in the last 8 years we made a comeback.... Which glaringly shows how inept, non-existant, horrible our offense has been!!!!:hammer: :thumbdown: :embarassed: