Double standard

[OriAl]

The double standard for quarterbacks here is amazing. If the quarterback is named Boller, every bad thing he does is magnified, and every good thing he does is ignored or minimized. If the quarterback is named Smith,
every bad tthing he does is ignored or minimized, and every good thing he does is maximized. Here are a few facts, with opinions at the end of each.

Fact: With the offensive line playing its best game of the season by far, doing a fine job of both pass blocking and run blocking, Smith completed 16 of 27 passes (59%) for 171 yards and a TD. We ran for more yards than
Smith passed. For the season, under much more pressure than Smith faced yesterday, Boller has completed 60& of his passes. If Boller truly sucks, why is his completion percentage higher than Smith's?

Fact: In two starts, Smith has thrown five passes right to defenders (fortunately, all were dropped), tripped over his own feet once, and fumbled three times, twice without being hit (a rule protecting quarterbacks saved him from being charged with a fumble, but the fact is that if the ball had come lose before his butt hit the ground, it would
have been a fumble. He has to secure the ball better.) If Boller made all those mistakes, he'd be crucified. People still post about him fumbling without being hit two years ago. Nobody posts about McNair doing it, or tripping over his own feet, last season, and Smith doing it is ignored - only Boller is tarred for life.

Fact: Smith's accuracy improved in the second half, but he only put up seven points. That almost wasn't enough, thanks to the defense. If Boller puts up only seven points in a half, he's criticized. If Boller came close to losing a 20 point lead, we'd never hear the end of it.

Fact: With about three minutes left, Smith got the ball with a chance to lead a drive that would keep the Steelers from getting another chance to touch the ball. He was unable to do that. When similar things happened with Boller, he was criticized.

For the first time all season, luck was on the the Ravens' side. Almost every bounce went our way. Passes that should have been picked off were dropped, almost every fumble wound up in a Ravens' hands. All season
long, picks weren't dropped, tipped passes were picked off, and fumbles landed in opponent's hands.

Smith played well yesterday, thanks to great pass blocking, but he didn't earn the starting job. He showed that, like Boller, he can put up points if the offensive line does its job and protects him. This is a good thing - it shows that whichever QB gets the starting job next season, we'll be
able to score points if he's protected. Instead of looking for every excuse to throw Boller under a bus, why not be pleased that we have two capable QBs, and root for both of them? Hopefully, Sunday's o-line performance was a sign of things to come, and not just a fluke - if the
line plays like that next season, we're in good shape. If it had played like that this season, despite our defensive struggles, we'd be closer to 11-5 than 5-11.

An aside - isn't it interesting how nobody had a problem with Billick's playcalling Sunday? A coach looks a lot smarter when players execute than when they don't.

[HoustonRaven]

Dude, everyone here is talking Billick and you do this now? and not in the QB debate thread?

[Raveninwoodlawn]

More Boller crap?

[OriAl]

Boller is still here, Billick isn't.

[HoustonRaven]

Can this thread get moved to its proper place?

[RavenTD]

If you look at something long and hard enough.You will see whatever you want to see.

[highwater]

Boller is still here, Billick isn't.

This is true, and I agree with most of your post. As I mentioned in another thread, I was encouraged by Smith's play in the last game, but it really all comes down to pass protection. In most of our games this year, we haven't protected the QB very well. No matter who the QB is, we have to give him a chance to make a play.

[Sephy]

Jesus, dude. Of COURSE there is a double standard! You're comparing a FIVE YEAR VETERAN with a rookie who has just started his second game. I'm not impressed that a 5 year vet can beat out Troy's completion percentage by 8 tenths of a percent.

Of course pass blocking is crucial. It is crucial for everyone. Boller needs it, Troy needs it, Peyton needs it, Brady needs it. People are just excited about what they saw from a ROOKIE. In his SECOND START. There's a reason the criticisms aren't the same.

[4G63]

Jesus, dude. Of COURSE there is a double standard! You're comparing a FIVE YEAR VETERAN with a rookie who has just started his second game. I'm not impressed that a 5 year vet can beat out Troy's completion percentage by 8 tenths of a percent.

Of course pass blocking is crucial. It is crucial for everyone. Boller needs it, Troy needs it, Peyton needs it, Brady needs it. People are just excited about what they saw from a ROOKIE. In his SECOND START. There's a reason the criticisms aren't the same.

:iagree:

[StingerNLG]

For the love of God this is NOT the time to talk about this!

How about we let Ozzie and Bisciotti find us a new HC and let that person bring in some new coaches before ANY decisions about position players are made???

[ravenwoman]

I think everything with evaluating players is totally on HOLD right now. Ozzie said that first and foremost, they have to hire a coach. Then the coach has to hire a staff of asst. coaches. Then, those coaches will evaluate all of our players. All this has to be done before the draft, so Owings Mills is going to be a very busy place in the next few weeks. The last thing anyone is thinking about is QBs.

[festivus]

Ori Al, don't mind the naysayers. Your point is well taken, and I agree with a lot of it. Though the conversation generally does seem to be concerning other things. . .

Anyway your point is well taken.

[Baltoman07]

Boller has many supporters, they just are tired of defending him to lamebrains.

[Mwjergs]

I understand your points.
But, perception has always been about expectations.

Boller was a first round pick. The expectation is that first round selections should be major contributors to the team. The expectation was that he was the QB of the future and someone to build around. He was unfairly "given" the job as a rookie, and forced to learn on the job while the vets he had to lead around him openly questioned the decision. He wasn't ready for it but when the front office gives you the only option of a bum shouldered Chris Redman, what would you do?
Smith was a Heisman winner but as history has told us, that counts in the NFL as much as leading your 9-10 rec team to victory in Pop Warner. He was a sixth round pick. The expectation for him was that he was a third stringer with chance to learn. He wasn't being counted on even in the near future, in fact Billick bristled at even giving him a chance this year. Fate intervenes and injury allows him to play. It's certainly way too early to pronounce Smith a starter based on two games. But, at least you have some small idea of what he might bring to the table as an NFL QB.

This leads to the next point. Has Boller reached the maximum of what he is capable of? He enters year six of his career after playing 53 games and has thrown 45 TDs against 44 INTs.

As the team has reached a crossroads, is he the man to anoint the starter? I feel that it is hard to say that will true confidence. We will see into next year but, you still have 3 QBs under contract? Is McNair done? Do you try and sign a Jeff Garcia or McNabb short term? Do you allow a competition between Boller/Smith, or his Kyle the #1 and Smith the #2 into next season? I can't answer any of these things yet.

So, yes, it's a double standard. Much was expected of him and perhaps unfairly but, the question remains for me- Is he a NFL starting QB? I feel that he is a very capable backup but I'm not sure if he is the next one to lead the Ravens into a new era.

[Purpleguy]

For the love of God this is NOT the time to talk about this!

How about we let Ozzie and Bisciotti find us a new HC and let that person bring in some new coaches before ANY decisions about position players are made???

We have to make sure Ozzie has plenty of time for sleep during this process. That is very imporatant to him.

[BlackOutD]

Honestly, no matter how you slice it, I don't think either one of them is TRULY the answer

[OriAl]

If the line doesn't protect, nobody is the answer at QB. That's my primary point.

Peyton Manning is a great quarterback - I think nobody disagrees. Look at his numbers when he's forced from the pocket - far from great. When his left tackle missed a game, and he was pressured on most attempts, he threw six picks. Did he suddenly become a lousy QB that day? Of course not.

People have complained about letting Anderson go, because he's done well in Cleveland. He's also been protected by a good line. Perfect example - Browns' game here. Boller was sacked six times, and hurried ten (our line didn't even show up in the first half.) in the second half, with a little protection, Boller led us to 23 points and a lead the defense blew with 16 seconds left. Anderson was sacked once, and hurried maybe five times.

When Boller gets some protection, he plays well (see New England game.) If he would ever get the protection Manning and Brady get, he'd play well consistently. His entire career here, he played first behind lines built to run block, and now a line with rookies and aging, injured veterans. I think he did a lot better this season than should have been expected with that line. 61.1% completion rate, including big plays downfield. I hope the new staff looks at his games when he got some protection, and doesn't just buy into the media and fans' line re Boller. We CAN win with him.

[BlackOutD]

I very much agree with what your saying about the Oline and such, good points

[StingerNLG]

Look guys. Right now our QB situation, as big a lightning rod as the subject is, is on hold right now.

We need to actually have a Head Coach and Offensive Coordinator first. Now we're down our top two positions, and however many coaches were given the boot.

And you have NO idea what any new HC is going to think of who is here. Maybe the next HC thinks he can build the offense AROUND one of our two young QB's. Maybe he comes in and says he doesn't want ANY of them and wants to start with a new QB altogether.

Oh yeah, BTW we have this issue of whether Ogden is going to retire or not. That is going to shape the OL next year.

How about we let some other chips fall first. THEN let's fight about Boller and Smith again?

[Baltoman07]

No...I want to fight NOW!....just kidding....your exactly right.

[Kevlar]

Stinger,

if you don't want to talk about it, then butt out. Don't tell other people what they can or can not discuss. Well, unless you are paying for the web space.

Amazingly enough the offensive line seems to have its best games when Boller is not under center. After five years you would think people would notice a trend. Boller doesn't know how to work the pocket. He can't sense pressure, he can't avoid blitzers, and he makes the line look much worse than they actually are. McNair did too when he was in this year, but McNair was playing on one leg.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

When the OL is perfect and the WR's are catching any and everything in site, guys like Jeff Blake can perform.

I don't see the point of beating the "if the OL gives Boller 5 seconds every time he will be good" drum.

You can say that about every QB this city has ran out of town.

Anyway, we don't have a HC like Stinger has said and I think that is the bigger issue than another Boller Hugger thread.

[nattybohfiend]

Hmm. . . I think this 'double-standard' perspective might just come from the fact that one player is a turnover-prone fifth year veteran (originally a much-sacrificed-to-earn-first round pick) and the other just finished his second start.

[festivus]

We sacrificed for Boller at the time because our only other QB was Chris "I wasn't juiced" Redman. We were desperate, and were forced to make sacrifices to get to 19.

Boller has been a disappointment, but other teams have done worse at QB with mid-first picks and higher.

Now it is five years later. We have had long periods with Anthony Wright and Steve McNair starting under center. We had some success with McNair last year, but then he got old suddenly before the Bills game and has not been young again since. Wright was a disaster.

Anyway we are where we are. Entering next year, on paper at least, we have McNair/Boller/Smith. Which means Boller is the backup quarterback today, before the playoffs even start in 07, for the 08 season.

Meanwhile the Entire Organization is in disarray with no coaching staff, and very high ranking officials who have suddenly been effectively told they are out of the loop on key organizational decisions.

Really, it is time for people to let go of their hatred for Kyle Boller, and see him for what he is. A backup quarterback who is under contract for one more year, and who can be cut or released depending on what else goes on in the off season. During his time here other quarterbacks have been equally/more ineffective (e.g., Wright), or starting ahead of him (e.g., McNair).

There, you have the whole story. Can we let it go now, and worry about the future, instead of wringing our hands about the past?

[StingerNLG]

Kevlar, I will say whatever I feel, whenever I feel.

If you don't like it, put me on ignore. Either way shut the hell up.

The fact is that this issue has absolutley zero purpose considering we need a new coach who whill THEN decide who the QB is going to be.

And we don't know if a new system and offense will or won't change the QB play of any of our QB's because we've only seen the same offensive woes for 9 years.

This is just simply not a big issue right now.

[evade6317]

You wanna hear of a double standard?

When someone gives his favorite QB credit for "Winning Games" but then turns around and says "you can't blame him for the loss".

Or when someone condems a WR for not catching a ball that was thrown by his favorite QB even though he had to completely stretch out and just barely got his fingertips to the ball and then completely berates the other QB for making a similar poor throw and gives the WR a pass.

Boller is just another Tedford lemon who needs an extrordinary team around him to achieve mediocre.

Did anyone notice that in Boller's 5th year he finally took the reigns of a hurry up/2 minute offense? Also, did anyone notice that in Smith's 1st year and 2nd set of game snaps that he was already taking charge of the 2 minute offense?

He's already caught up to Boller in his first year! Imagine where he'll be in his 5th year if he keeps up this rate.

[Greg]

So you are saying until this year Boller never successfully ran a 2 minute offense?

[Mwjergs]

I can't pass up this opportunity.
I been on message boards for years and I find it funny that people are complaining about talking about certain subjects and then state their freedom to say whatever they want. However, when it comes to others somehow they can't excercise that same freedom.
And the title of the thread is.. "Double Standard".

"The ironing is delicious" - Bart Simpson

Lighten up, it's just a message board, just fans talking about things to pass the time until next September.

[RavenTD]

Lighten up, it's just a message board, just fans talking about things to pass the time until next September.

Raven QB threads go way back through history.Indeed they found a neolithic Raven QB thread painted in a cave somewhere.With a lot of smashed skulls on the cave floor.

[Dade]

Boller has been a disappointment, but other teams have done worse at QB with mid-first picks and higher.


True, for some reason people that Boller was the only first round pick to not pan out. Here's a list of first round QBs that have been a bust. Going back to 2000.

Chad Pennington
Michael Vick
David Carr
Patrick Ramsey
Rex Grossman
J.P. Losman
Alex Smith
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Leinart
Byron Leftwich
Kyle Boller

(Even through he was draft before 2000, lets never forget Ryan Leaf)

Thats eleven out of 20 QBs pick in the first round since 2000. More than 50%of the QBs taken in the first round hasn't become successfull starters by the end of the regular 2007 season. So Boller isn't all alone is he.

[Greg]

And Tim Couch and Akili Smith.

[metro]

True, for some reason people that Boller was the only first round pick to not pan out. Here's a list of first round QBs that have been a bust. Going back to 2000.

Chad Pennington
Michael Vick
David Carr
Patrick Ramsey
Rex Grossman
J.P. Losman
Alex Smith
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Leinart
Byron Leftwich
Kyle Boller

(Even through he was draft before 2000, lets never forget Ryan Leaf)

Thats eleven out of 20 QBs pick in the first round since 2000. More than 50%of the QBs taken in the first round hasn't become successfull starters by the end of the regular 2007 season. So Boller isn't all alone is he.

How can you call Aaron Rodgers a bust? He plays behind Brett Favre and looked really good spelling Favre against the Cowboys. I would give Aaron Rodgers, Alex Smith and Matt Leinart an incomplete grade. However, I do agree with the premise of your post. There have been many first round busts at the QB position.

[purplepoe]

True, for some reason people that Boller was the only first round pick to not pan out. Here's a list of first round QBs that have been a bust. Going back to 2000.

Chad Pennington
Michael Vick
David Carr
Patrick Ramsey
Rex Grossman
J.P. Losman
Alex Smith
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Leinart
Byron Leftwich
Kyle Boller

(Even through he was draft before 2000, lets never forget Ryan Leaf)

Thats eleven out of 20 QBs pick in the first round since 2000. More than 50%of the QBs taken in the first round hasn't become successfull starters by the end of the regular 2007 season. So Boller isn't all alone is he.

How is Pennington a bust?

Leinart?

Rodgers?

And say what you want about Vick but he's been to the playoffs a few times, won a few playoff games and led the Falcons to the NFC Championship game. He certainly isn't a bust on the field. Im sure the Falcons wanted a bit more than they've gotten. What he is though, is a MAJOR bust off the field.

And who cares about other teams' QB busts?

I care about our QB and Boller is a bust.

PP

[Rochardrik]

How is Pennington a bust?

Leinart?

Rodgers?

And say what you want about Vick but he's been to the playoffs a few times, won a few playoff games and led the Falcons to the NFC Championship game. He certainly isn't a bust on the field. Im sure the Falcons wanted a bit more than they've gotten. What he is though, is a MAJOR bust off the field.

And who cares about other teams' QB busts?

I care about our QB and Boller is a bust.

PP
There are varying degrees of "Bust"... Akili Smith, Tim Couch and Ryan Leaf are ALL the "nth" degree of bust.
Pennington, Vick, Leftwich, Carr, have been somewhat serviceable, even quite good at certain times, but in the end surely did not pan out like their team had hoped... mild busts.
"GODDammit" Kyle and most of the others on this list are somewhere in between, IMO.

[xmradiodave]

I feel that Boller was a bust as far as 1st round draft picks go. Overall, he worked great in a backup role and occasionally looked good in his starting role.
So, meh... it is really middle of the road I guess.

[Hook]

So, meh... it is really middle of the road I guess.

Middle of the road?

Excuse me?!

Boller has been ranked towards the bottom of the passing stats for years. He has been ranked 31th (2003), 30th (2004), 29th (2005), No ranking in 2006 cause he was benched, and in 2007 he is ranked 24th and remember thats with 6 straight losses while being benched once more.

You do realize there are 31 other teams in this league...Right?!

[xmradiodave]

Middle of the road?

Excuse me?!

Boller has been ranked towards the bottom of the passing stats for years. He has been ranked 31th (2003), 30th (2004), 29th (2005), No ranking in 2006 cause he was benched, and in 2007 he is ranked 24th and remember thats with 6 straight losses while being benched once more.

You do realize there are 31 other teams in this league...Right?!

I meant my opinion of him is middle of the road (because he is a decent backup). Statistically speaking... I agree with you.



But thanks for calrifying how many teams are in the ... what is this called again... National foozball legislature?

[Hook]

I meant my opinion of him is middle of the road (because he is a decent backup).
In his last 7 starts it been all losses. A decent back up wins a few games over that span. A "middle of the road" type qb would at the very least pull out 3 or 4 wins during that stretch. At the minium you would expect a win against a team like Miami. Maybe I'm asking too much, eh?

[OriAl]

Who blew the game against Miami? The defense. Who blew the New England game? The defense. Who blew the Browns game with 16 seconds left? The defense. We had second half leads in all three of those games - before 2007, our defense held leads. Guess the fact that the defense couldn't stop opposing QBs is Boller's fault. How dare he allow Cleo Lemon to torch our team in the second half, and let Tom Brady run 12 yards on fourth and six, and let Derek Anderson complete two passes for 25 yards in 16 seconds in must-pass situations?

[purplepoe]

Who blew the game against Miami? The defense. Who blew the New England game? The defense. Who blew the Browns game with 16 seconds left? The defense. We had second half leads in all three of those games - before 2007, our defense held leads. Guess the fact that the defense couldn't stop opposing QBs is Boller's fault. How dare he allow Cleo Lemon to torch our team in the second half, and let Tom Brady run 12 yards on fourth and six, and let Derek Anderson complete two passes for 25 yards in 16 seconds in must-pass situations?

LOL.

When McNair would win squeakers last the defense would get credit and the McNair bashers would say we won in spite of him.

If Boller would've made the comeback in Cleveland last year or in Tennesse last year it would've been a party around here celebrating him.

THAT is the double standard.

PP

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Yeah...the #6 defense is the reason we lost 11 games...not the #22 ranked offense...:insane:

What a lame argument.

[evade6317]

Who blew the game against Miami? The defense. Who blew the New England game? The defense. Who blew the Browns game with 16 seconds left? The defense. We had second half leads in all three of those games - before 2007, our defense held leads. Guess the fact that the defense couldn't stop opposing QBs is Boller's fault. How dare he allow Cleo Lemon to torch our team in the second half, and let Tom Brady run 12 yards on fourth and six, and let Derek Anderson complete two passes for 25 yards in 16 seconds in must-pass situations?

Who had only one statistically good year in college?

Who couldn't put up points?

Who couldn't sustain drives?

Who got replaced by McNair?

Who was ranked as one of SI's "Top 25 QB Busts of All Time"?

Who couldn't mature into a mediocre QB after 5 years in the same offense?

Who get's credit for the wins, but is never guilty for the losses?

Your boy Kyle.

[Hook]

Who was ranked as one of SI's "Top 25 QB Busts of All Time"?

I didnt know that. What place did he come in?

[StingerNLG]

Who get's credit for the wins, but is never guilty for the losses?


COUGH COUGH DEFENSE COUGH COUGH


Is this retarded thread still going on?

[4G63]

Who blew the game against Miami? The defense. Who blew the New England game? The defense.

Miami, yes.....NE, no! Rex and Brian, by calling that timeout, lost us the Pats' game.

Look at our defenses on the field for both of those games. NO COMPARISON!

[evade6317]

COUGH COUGH DEFENSE COUGH COUGH


Is this retarded thread still going on?


Yeah, because the D has been a huge disappointment for so long right?

jackass

"Boller has won 20 games you know."


"But to blame Boller for this loss is more than rediculous."

[StingerNLG]

Yep, this retarded thread is still going on.

jackass huh? Took you all day to come up with that one I bet. You get a golf clap for that one.

[evade6317]

And you get a standing ovation for your glaring double standard when defending Boller.

Way to contradict yourself.:rolling:

[4G63]

And you get a standing ovation for your glaring double standard when defending Boller.

Way to contradict yourself.:rolling:

Don't waste your time.....

[StingerNLG]

I actually don't know what the hell he's talking about 4. I only jumped in because the thread was still amazingly going on.

But hey, it seems to be taking a lot of your small brain power to come up with these responses Evade, so I'll let you be to smoke up a little more. It is good laugh material.

[RustonRifle]

Who had only one statistically good year in college?

Who couldn't put up points?

Who couldn't sustain drives?

Who got replaced by McNair?

Who was ranked as one of SI's "Top 25 QB Busts of All Time"?

Who couldn't mature into a mediocre QB after 5 years in the same offense?

Who get's credit for the wins, but is never guilty for the losses?

Your boy Kyle.

BINGO

Boller has done nothing but undermine this franchise chances of winning games since he's been here.

Billick gave boller the keys to run the offense when he couldn't even stay on his tricycle.


I couldn't believe they gave him an extension , even if it was one season.

[evade6317]

I actually don't know what the hell he's talking about 4. I only jumped in because the thread was still amazingly going on.

But hey, it seems to be taking a lot of your small brain power to come up with these responses Evade, so I'll let you be to smoke up a little more. It is good laugh material.

Who said the following:

On one occasion,"Boller has won 20 games you know." (Giving Boller credit for wins.)


And on another, "But to blame Boller for this loss is more than rediculous."(Giving him immunity for losses.)

Talk about a glaring double standard.

[ExiledRaven]

Everyone wants a QB to win. Eventually they get an emotional attachment to the QB they think will part the Red Sea and lead this team to the endzone of glory.

Soon as that happens, you start seeing those types of defenses.

Me, I'm partial to seeing what Smith can do. He has promise. He made mistakes, he's got work, and he's done some things well. Ultimately a "we're not sure what we have, but it might be good".

[4G63]

I actually don't know what the hell he's talking about 4. I only jumped in because the thread was still amazingly going on.

But hey, it seems to be taking a lot of your small brain power to come up with these responses Evade, so I'll let you be to smoke up a little more. It is good laugh material.

Look, we've disagreed about Boller in the past and while I feel we've lost games because of his play, I also feel we've won because of his play. But, as you and I have debated about before, I feel Boller has had his due time to prove himself. He'll never get us to the Super Bowl with his inconsistent play.

Like 'Exiled' said above, I'd like to see what Smith has to offer us. He's shown promise, which I'm sure you'll agree with, since he started at the end of the year....now if we could just do something with McNair and that terrible contract we gave him.....

[OriAl]

No quarterback will play consistently in Baltimore until the pass protection is greatly removed. Whether his name is Boller, Smith, Brady, Manning, or something else, a QB requires consistent protection to succeed.

Hopefully, Cameron will focus on improving the o-line's performance, and hire a good o-line coach, and we'll all see a much improved offense. Meanwhile, we'll draft or sign a shutdown corner or two, a QB-pressuring d-lineman, to improve the pass defense which was terrible this past season, and a wide receiver with game breaking potential to aid the improved offense.

[purplepoe]

No quarterback will play consistently in Baltimore until the pass protection is greatly removed. Whether his name is Boller, Smith, Brady, Manning, or something else, a QB requires consistent protection to succeed.

Hopefully, Cameron will focus on improving the o-line's performance, and hire a good o-line coach, and we'll all see a much improved offense. Meanwhile, we'll draft or sign a shutdown corner or two, a QB-pressuring d-lineman, to improve the pass defense which was terrible this past season, and a wide receiver with game breaking potential to aid the improved offense.

All of this and we'll still have a shitty QB.

Keep banging that drum!

PP

[Greg]

No quarterback will play consistently in Baltimore until the pass protection is greatly removed.
I think it already has been removed and that is the problem! <RIM SHOT>

I would like to see us improve OL play and draft a QB and then see what we have in Boller, Smith and the rookie. Boller performed at a decent level when given protection. Again, as I keep stressing, even with the OL last year he still was better (using the rating system) than the QBs on at least 8 NFL teams.

I wouldn't toss anybody out at this point, nor am I convinced we have anything in any of them.

I also would not write off McNair until he comes into camp and we see what kind of zip he does or does not have. Hopefully he is working a lot harder this off-season than he did the last one.