Linebackers?

[Rxdoxx]

First post here, and it may be a little long. Joined because I wanted to bounce my impression off Ravens people to see if it makes sense. OK? Thanks.

My impression is that the Raven's organization has over-valued linebackers to the detriment of the overall team. (Don't get me wrong, I love our linebackers)

Now a linebacker is a big athlete. Emphasis on athletic. Not huge (that is a stud defensive end) and not light (that is a safety). From what I have seen watching college football, that kind/type of athlete is not real hard to find.
When a Bart Scott can be a UDFA, and Adalius Thomas be found in the 6th round, good linebackers are not a rare commodity and shouldn't be treated as one.

I hate the Steelers (I remember our old Colts/Steelers games where both teams would be too banged up to win their next game regardless of who won), but I have to use them as an example. Chad Brown? Levon Kirkland? Ian Gold? Joey Porter? Pay them big bucks, not them, they let them go and replaced them.
I saw the Ravens squeeze the salary cap to hold onto Jamie Sharper, and the pressure it put on them to retain some real quality on the bench, I can remember being very concerned that they would lose Cornell Brown. Saw Edgerton Hartwell leave (sorry he got injured).

I can see large salary cap numbers for 3 positions. A franchise QB, a pro-bowl L-tackle, and an absolute stud defensive end. And I'll concede a cap bite for an elite shut-down corner.

I guess what I'm saying is that really good linebackers are too common to value as high as the Ravens management has done. And when there is not enough free money to spread around, we end up with backups like Winbourne et. al.

As bad as we have been trying to get the super wide receiver, we seem to have been equally as bad at destroying cap space with linebackers. (And I don't begrudge Ray his money, my thought are not about individuals, only cap)

What do you think? Is the Raven's cap money positioned the best for the team as a whole?

[highwater]

I don't think that the organization has overvalued LBs, I think they've been either lucky or brilliant in picking some of them up. Guys like Thomas and Scott were either late round picks or undrafted free agents as I recall. (I'm a little drunk right now, so someone sober back me up on this or correct me if I'm wrong).

But I agree that a shutdown CB would be a great addition, and if a good QB is around when our pick comes up, that would be great too. But I don't think we're tying up that much cap space in LBs, if that is your point.

And welcome to the board, by the way. Nice first post.

[Dade]

Welcome good first post. I think we slightly over value LBs. Over the years we've had alot of pro bowl LBs, you gotta pay a little for them.

Yeah highwater we have picked up late round picks and/or undrafted LBs.

[UKRavenStockers]

By mentioning Bart Scott and Adalius Thomas I think you have disproved your point on us over valuing them, you can throw Jarrett Johnson into that group as well, those guys weren't drafted as linebackers and all three were second day picks or UDFAs.

We haven't spent a high pick on a linebacker since Edgerton Hartwell I don't think, save for Terrell Suggs who rushes the passer so much that I don't even consider him an LB when he's in a two point stance.

Thomas was a DE in college, Jarrett Johnson was a DT/DE in college, Bart Scott was a safety in college. We do an excellent job of developing guys and we have paid to keep our best athletic talent on defence which is a core reason why we've maintained our high defensive ranking for such an extended period of time IMO.

I think where we have shifted away from linebackers in recent years is placing a greater emphasis on the defensive line bringing in guys like Ngata and Pryce. Your linebackers can only play as well as the platform that the defensive line provides for them and I think the money that we've spent on our D-line outweighs the money we're spending on our LBs at this time.

[RavenScallywag]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/teamSalary?categoryId=67065

For 2007, our LBs had the 4th, 6th and 16th highest salaries on the team.

But if you look at salaries, I think you can see the LB itself is a position where you have to pay a bit more. Look at Nick Greisen's salary for 2007...He made 100k more than Kelly Gregg! Gary Still is right below KG. Below 1 mil, you get into the drafted and UDFA contracts, which are ridiculous. Suggs only made 500k this year? I know his contract is laden with incentives, but still, his salary was less than Dan Cody's!

To address you original idea, about the Steelers basically telling the LBs to take a walk when they want a lot of money, what you're setting yourself up for there is a constant learning curve at the LB position. What happens if the Steelers have a bad draft one year? You're going to end up fielding subpar LBs and getting exposed. Also, look at the salaries on the Pittsburgh DL...3.9, 4.5, and 6.3 mil. That's nearly 15 mil on one group. That's also about what the Ravens pay their starting LBs. Meanwhile, our top salary on the DL is Pryce, who's making 6 mil. Suggs only made 500k, Gregg only made about 1 mil, and Ngata made 1.5 mil.

So to sum up...I don't think we overvalue our LB position, I think we just invest heavily there because we feel like our LBs should be able to drop down to the DL or drop back into coverage, whereas you don't want our DBs playing on the DL or a DL dropping back into coverage. But, that's some good introspection. Welcome to the board, enjoy!

[Baltoman07]

I agree 100%. It's much tougher to find a Jason Taylor, Dwight Freeney, or Michael Strahan than it is to find a linebacker. Almost every team has what they consider a top tier linebacker.

[Rxdoxx]

By mentioning Bart Scott and Adalius Thomas I think you have disproved your point on us over valuing them, you can throw Jarrett Johnson into that group as well, those guys weren't drafted as linebackers and all three were second day picks or UDFAs.

Thomas was a DE in college, Jarrett Johnson was a DT/DE in college, Bart Scott was a safety in college.

I believe that proves what I'm saying, maybe I should have been a little clearer. The value I was talking about is the dollar value they put on their linebackers, not the quality of the player.
One of the trememdous strengths of the Ravens is to find incredible athletic linebackers especially in the later draft rounds, as others have pointed out.
With that perspective, then I think (IMHO) that there should be less salary cap emphasis/committment in that area, it is the monetary value that seems out of balance.
They let Adalius walk, and shortly T-sizzle's decisions will be coming up.

Your bringing up the fact that a number of Raven linebackers didn't play linebacker in college is a very good point (add Boulware? I think he was a DE).
That helps support, that the physical dimensions/prototypes for NFL linebackers are a lot more available than some other positions, and nicely findable by Ravens staff.

What I see as the outcome of this is more salary cap space that can be spread around a little. I think we all can agree that with the way the NFL is, if a team does not have quality back-ups, there will be touble as a season progresses and injurys occur. I don't want to get into a back and forth about the actual quality of the players I'm going to name, I'm just fishing for some possible examples of what I'm saying.
Could we have kept a Lionel Dalton is we had an extra $500k to toss his way?
It is nice to get the supplemental draft picks, but a bunch of those players were our back-ups who were able to start on another team (hence we get a decent round compensation). Maybe if we could hold on to some of them, then we would have a starter quality replacement on the bench when an injury hits. And that is a function of cap room to do it.
QB, pro-bowl LT, super stud DE, and shutdown corner are the only positions I feel that the Ravens should use chunks of cap space, linebackers we ought to be able to reload every year at one spot or another with this team's skill at unearthing them (Burgess, Jones, Haley, Barnes and I think one or two others this year... someone from that group should be ready to step in for the coming year, maybe 2 of them).


RavenScallywag, good info, thanks. Pryce has been an incredible addition, but we have no one to rest him and keep him fresh in the 4thQ without a drop-off. Great DEs are difficult to find, and looks like we can't even afford to get an aging one at a bargain (above the veteran minimum) and use him a handful of plays a game (like we did with Siragusa, he only played about 1/2 the downs, but he was great when he was in there). Would I rather have seen a Reeche Caldwell in training camp or a Clarence Moore?

We are still discussing the area, and thanks all, from what I see, I made a great choice in joining this board :) Thanks for the welcomes!

I'm still feeling that the Ravens are excellent at finding value in the draft/FA for linebackers, but are not so great at assigning dollar value to that position, and the squeezed cap room is hurting the overall team makeup, limiting options at other positions.

[Greg]

Ozzie and the scouts look for impact playmakers in college. Those are usually DEs and LBs. We draft a good number of those we end up playing as LBs or hybrid DE/LBs. There are exceptions, of course, with guys like Reed and McAlister in the back and Haloti up front.

I think we could put a bit more emphasis in the trenches (we have on the OL side recently) and get more bang for the buck, but we have landed a number of high impact guys, big play guys. But they need the beef up front or it is for naught.

[jonboy79]

I actually see some merit in this opinion. LBers, are typically, as good as those around them. The DL and DB are much more impactful on the flow of today's NFL Offense. Maybe that is why the Ravens are consistently the best run stopping defense in the league. I think the Ravens should continue to draft mid round LB'ers till the cows come home. 3rd to 6th round players are more hten adequate to fill the LB positions. THey can be turned into players pretty quickly, we may re-sign them too often, too long and for too much money. It could handicap our cap a bit much. Perhaps it is easier and cheaper to let players like Bart Scott go after this contract. Even perhaps a guy like Suggs now, who knows.

[metro]

I agree. The Ravens invest too much in the linebacker position. Both Jarret Johnson and Bart Scott are good players against the run. They are limited playing in space. Yet both players have high salaries. Bart Scott has the 4th highest salary. Jarrett Johnson has the 16th highest salary. Bart Scott was an UDFA. JJ was a 4th round draft pick...as a DT. Considering that it is relatively easier to find quality athletes that can play LB, does it make sense to commit so much salary to one position?

[Rxdoxx]

Thanks all for the support for my thoughts.

I was pondering the Ravens in light of the cap when I started drawing those conclusions. Questions like why didn't they have some "extra" free space?
I concluded that they have done a decent job of cap management in the light of keeping purges from having to happen (Jermaine Lewis, Sharper...), but there had to be something more.
What was bugging me was that remaining roster spots had to be filled with minimum salary rookies and veteran minimums.
I have seen other teams add players at bargain prices, picking up a salary cap casualties - veterans who are starting their decline.
Redskins getting Bruce Smith is one that comes to mind, maybe not the best example but you get the idea.
And I thought wouldn't it be nice if we had some veterans who would be good for a handful of plays a game, and could step in full time for a game or two when an injury happens but we would know that there is no way they could play anything close to a full season, and pay them accordingly. We just didn't have them. Call them insurance policies, and the Ravens cap management left no room for any insurance. A "declining" veteran cornerback sure would have been nice this past year. There are players that can be rented (so to speak) for a year or two, but we have to have room to offer them maybe double the veteran minimum to get someone who will be more than a warm body on the field in a pinch.

Aahhh but that is just speculation. As long as the salary cap stays loaded with linebackers, we won't have the money for positional insurance.

[4G63]

Aahhh but that is just speculation. As long as the salary cap stays loaded with linebackers, we won't have the money for positional insurance.

For every Ray Lewis salary there is a Steve McNair salary! Ray has a presence on the field and in the locker room and his salary, IMO, is justified. McNair has been distressingly overpaid for all the baggage that accompanied him. Why did we give him so much money? He'll be a cap hit next year whether he plays or not! His cap hurts us more than anyone else's on the team IMO.....including Bart Scott! (I'm not even getting started with his play this year)

[4G63]

Look at Nick Greisen's salary for 2007...He made 100k more than Kelly Gregg! Gary Still is right below KG. Below 1 mil, you get into the drafted and UDFA contracts, which are ridiculous. Suggs only made 500k this year? I know his contract is laden with incentives, but still, his salary was less than Dan Cody's!


Something ain't right. According to USATODAY.com (http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/teamdetail.aspx?year=2007&team=4&order=BaseSalary+desc), Fox's numbers are wrong. Or maybe USAToday is wrong.

I cant imagine Nick Greisen makes more than Kelly Gregg!?! If that really is the case, then someone needs to get their priorities straight!! It also proves the OP's point that we overpay LB's.....