Time to add anoter Vet QB to the compettion? [Archive] - Baltimore Ravens Forums and Message Boards

Jeremiah W

08-12-2008, 09:47 AM

If Kyle has not won the job, and is not in the long term plans anyway, why not bring in another vet QB to make him fight for his job this year?

There seems to be a real roster battle at almost every other position, why not QB? Flacco and Troy are going to make the team regardless of who wins the starting job, but why keep Kyle around if he is not going to start?

The QB I want to see in camp right now is Daunte Cullpepper. The man was less than 300 yards short of a 5000 yard passing season just 3 years ago. He has a much higher lifetime QB rating than most of the QBs in the HOF. Randy Moss was not always playing when he threw for 4 tds and 400 yards.

I just think Daunte has a much higher upside than Kyle, and less emotional baggage with the fans and fellow players. He had one really bad game where he threw 5 picks (so has Brett Favre, in a playoff game even) and he blew out his knee. He did not look good trying to play before the knee healed in Miami, but he did have some good highlights in Oakland last year running and passing.

I am not even saying cut Kyle today and give his job to Daunte, but how about bringing him in and cutting the loser of the QB battle instead of just benching them.

Look at Daunte's numbers and tell me he does not represent at least a potential upgrade to our QB compettion. All he wants is a chance to start, I think we can offer that.

Career Stats more

TOTAL 1,867/ 2,927, 63.8% 22,422yards 7.7per 142TDs 94int 89.9QBR

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HoustonRaven

08-12-2008, 09:56 AM

This position you have has me scratching my beautiful bald head.

We have our QB's for the year. We are not even thinking about signing another QB. Yes, Culpepper has some impressive stats but you completely discount our present contract situation with our current QB's

Baring injury, it just wont happen. Until that happens, this thread is 100% moot.

Jeremiah W

08-12-2008, 10:07 AM

I am not giving up hope of getting a proven QB until we actually start the season without one.

I have it plenty of times, I like Kyle, but am tired of seeing the same type of mistakes and not enough TDs.

Kyle is on a 1 year deal that would not count against the cap if were cut or traded. I am pretty sure Kyle is currently making more than Daunte did last season in Oakland.

There are still 3 games to go, but if Kyle does not look like the clear cut starter after this next game, i say get Daunte in here and give him a shot.

What is the point of keeping Kyle around as the backup if we can get Daunte for the same money and no cap hit?

UKRavenStockers

08-12-2008, 10:24 AM

Culpepper is a good QB in a vertical passing system, last I checked we weren't running a vertical passing system here and we certainly don't have the WRs to achieve that, so signing Culpepper simply isn't going to be the upgrade you desire. Those statistics were accumulated in a big, talented, vertical offence with arguably the best WR ever to play the game at the height of powers (Rany Moss) out there for Culpepper simply to toss the ball up to him if he ever got into trouble.

I don't think Culpepper has the patience to run a more dink & dunk, WCO and I certainly don't think he has the time to learn the offence and be a sufficient upgrade on Boller that you'd be looking for in the short term.

bmoreravengirl

08-12-2008, 11:16 AM

Culpepper is more injury-prone than Boller (at least some folks have said that Boller is injury-prone), so I'd say no thanks to a re-tread QB.

This is probably going to be a rebuilding year and we aren't expected to win many games, so I think it would probably be a good idea to work with what we have and see how it pans out.

psuasskicker

08-12-2008, 11:34 AM

Jeremiah W

08-12-2008, 12:17 PM

Culpepper's hands are smaller than my 5 year old daughter's. Why do you think he fumbles every three touches?

You act like you can just pick up a QB and he'll know your system in 2 days. Culpepper's out of work for a reason. And grabbing him so late in the game isn't going to help matters.

Better or (likely) worse, we're stuck with what we've got.

- C -

We are not stuck with Kyle. The team just thinks he is a better fit for the money than Daunte at this point. I don't. I would like to have them both in camp and then cut Kyle if he does not outperform him.

Troy Smith is a guy who I think fits into the long term plans as the back up and Flacco the starter, but this season is just getting started and we are as in good of a posiiton to win our division as any NFL team.

We have the 4th place schedule advantage. We have arguably the best roster, and the best player at more positions than any other team in the division. We may have questions at QB, but unit for unit I will take our DBs, LBs, DL over any in the NFL. The O line, TEs and WR and RBs are above average collectivly. The only thing we need to seriously contend for the division and beyond is solid QB play.

McNair was far from spectacular in 2006, but he turned a suspect O line into the best pass blocking unit in the NFL by speeding up the reads. The run game was not very productive most of the time, but we had the 11th ranked offense and Heap, Mason, Clayton, Williams and Wilcox all made plays.

Cullpepper is a good QB. His QB rating and completion percentage prove it. They are all going to have turnovers, but they are not all going to be able to throw 40 tds in one season or throw for almost 5000 yards. Those were not all to Randy Moss. He was very good at spreading the ball around not allowing teams to focus on Moss. The guy had a lot of rushing attempts where he tried to run over a LB and lost the ball even if he did pancake the LB. He is not exactly a fumbling machine like Tony Banks, or Kyle "non contact fumbles" Boller.

FHRaven

08-12-2008, 12:33 PM

Cullpepper is a good QB. His QB rating and completion percentage prove it. They are all going to have turnovers, but they are not all going to be able to throw 40 tds in one season or throw for almost 5000 yards. Those were not all to Randy Moss. He was very good at spreading the ball around not allowing teams to focus on Moss. The guy had a lot of rushing attempts where he tried to run over a LB and lost the ball even if he did pancake the LB. He is not exactly a fumbling machine like Tony Banks, or Kyle "non contact fumbles" Boller.

In the last 3 years Culpepper has just over a 60% completion rate and QB rating in the low 70's. This is run of the mill. I fail to see the huge improvement.

I can't believe I just wasted 2 minutes reading and responding to this thread. :grbac:

Losac

08-12-2008, 12:57 PM

Well the Steelers just signed Leftwich over Culpepper after working them both out. And this was for a backup job.

StingerNLG

08-12-2008, 02:32 PM

We are not stuck with Kyle. The team just thinks he is a better fit for the money than Daunte at this point. I don't. I would like to have them both in camp and then cut Kyle if he does not outperform him.

You really can't, and we really are stuck with Kyle. If you cut Kyle you take the cap hit. You can't trade the guy because he's on the last year of his contract and, putting aside his performance or what you think about him, no team will trade for a guy in the last year of his contract. It's not like Baseball where you can talk contract extension at the time of the trade.

Troy Smith is a guy who I think fits into the long term plans as the back up and Flacco the starter, but this season is just getting started and we are as in good of a posiiton to win our division as any NFL team.

I can't agree there. We don't have the offensive line to properly protect our QB's. And we don't have a QB that can hang with Carson Palmer or Ben Rothlesberger without an offensive line that can pass block.

We have the 4th place schedule advantage. We have arguably the best roster, and the best player at more positions than any other team in the division. We may have questions at QB, but unit for unit I will take our DBs, LBs, DL over any in the NFL. The O line, TEs and WR and RBs are above average collectivly. The only thing we need to seriously contend for the division and beyond is solid QB play.

Defensively, yes. Offensively? Not even close. We have ONE TE for all intents and purposes who can even play right now. Our WR core is not on the same level as Chad Johnson and TJ Wachamacallhim.

McNair was far from spectacular in 2006, but he turned a suspect O line into the best pass blocking unit in the NFL by speeding up the reads.

And then the next year beat him into retirement. So that is now TWO quarterbacks our OL has killed.

OL - 2, Former Pro-Bowl QB's - 0.

Cullpepper is a good QB. His QB rating and completion percentage prove it. They are all going to have turnovers, but they are not all going to be able to throw 40 tds in one season or throw for almost 5000 yards. Those were not all to Randy Moss. He was very good at spreading the ball around not allowing teams to focus on Moss. The guy had a lot of rushing attempts where he tried to run over a LB and lost the ball even if he did pancake the LB. He is not exactly a fumbling machine like Tony Banks, or Kyle "non contact fumbles" Boller.

Culpepper would have been fine had he not blown out his knee. Blown knee, end of story.

Jeremiah W

08-12-2008, 03:09 PM

You really can't, and we really are stuck with Kyle. If you cut Kyle you take the cap hit. You can't trade the guy because he's on the last year of his contract and, putting aside his performance or what you think about him, no team will trade for a guy in the last year of his contract. It's not like Baseball where you can talk contract extension at the time of the trade.

I can't agree there. We don't have the offensive line to properly protect our QB's. And we don't have a QB that can hang with Carson Palmer or Ben Rothlesberger without an offensive line that can pass block.

Defensively, yes. Offensively? Not even close. We have ONE TE for all intents and purposes who can even play right now. Our WR core is not on the same level as Chad Johnson and TJ Wachamacallhim.

And then the next year beat him into retirement. So that is now TWO quarterbacks our OL has killed.

OL - 2, Former Pro-Bowl QB's - 0.

Culpepper would have been fine had he not blown out his knee. Blown knee, end of story.

None of your points are valid.

1. kyle is in the last year of his contract. The only cap hit occurs when bonus money form future years is accelerated. No future years, no cap hit. His salary can all go directly to other players.

2. Teams can work out an extension before trading for him as long as the Ravens allow it.

3.The O line can properly protect our QBs if the OC properly calls the protections and plays to suit the talen on the feild. You saw vs the starting NE D line how screens, draws and chip blocking can neutralise a huge mismatch for the DE. Quick hitting plays, inside running and better coaching can all help improve our blocking.

Like I said about the 2006 O line, the Qb has a lot to do with the protection by reading the defense and changing the protection or the play.

4. defensivly we clearly have the most talent not only in our division but in the NFL, but I can see how you question the talent on offense. The numbers Heap and Mason put up when with a decent QB are hard to ignore though. Clayton and Williams had several solid games in 2006, but are not proven. Take the skill guys as a whole though and they look pretty good. Focus on the T posiiton and there is concern, but when you look at the C and the G spots, we have more than enough talent and size on the O line to be better than average.

5. The O line did not get McNair killed as much as Billick did. First of all he should have sent him into the locker room to get checked out after the second fumblle. He left him out there innefective, put him in the game without practice, and refused to pull him regardless of performance or risk of further injury.

Jeremiah W

08-12-2008, 03:12 PM

About the Knee, that is why you have him pass a physical and workout before you offer him a contract.

psuasskicker

08-12-2008, 03:18 PM

Cullpepper is a good QB. His QB rating and completion percentage prove it.

No they don't. You just want them to so you spout them off like it's fact and hope that no one notices that either you're lying or you're full of shit.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CulpDa00.htm

In the last 3 years, Culpepper has thrown for 13 TDs and 20 INTs. His completion % has declined in each of those 3 years, and was under 60% last year. He's fumbled 17 times in 18 games (which is nothing new for him...over his career he's fumbled 93 times in 92 games).

He hasn't been a "good QB" since 2004. He's only been a "good QB" for four of his nine year career.

- C -

Jeremiah W

08-12-2008, 03:27 PM

No they don't. You just want them to so you spout them off like it's fact and hope that no one notices that either you're lying or you're full of shit.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CulpDa00.htm

In the last 3 years, Culpepper has thrown for 13 TDs and 20 INTs. His completion % has declined in each of those 3 years, and was under 60% last year. He's fumbled 17 times in 18 games (which is nothing new for him...over his career he's fumbled 93 times in 92 games).

He hasn't been a "good QB" since 2004. He's only been a "good QB" for four of his nine year career.

- C -

Beside the fact that he played on 3 pretty bad teams with 3 different pretty suspect coaches, he blew out his knee and tried to play too soon. 5 of his picks came in one game. I saw the game, and none of the interceptions he threw that day were as dumb looking as the ones Kyle threw the last 2 times he faced NE.

I like the fact that Daunte has not had a good season in a while, it means we can get him on the cheap like Philly got Jeff Garcia and revived his game.

The fumbles and interceptions I can live with if we can get some TDs and road wins to with it. I have seen Daunte do it at an all pro level for multiple seasons. When is the last time you say Boller do it in back to back games?

psuasskicker

08-12-2008, 03:29 PM

I guess I did forget option #3... You're delusional.

- C -

Galen Sevinne

08-12-2008, 03:30 PM

Jeremiah W

08-12-2008, 04:21 PM

Since the Ravens haven't added a vet QB it supports the argument that the F.O. sees this as a rebuilding year. If not, maybe we take a stab at Favre or another vet. It looks like it will either be Boller or Troy and everyone has their fingers crossed that next year at this time, the conversation is more about linebackers than Quarterbacks or we are in some trouble.

I just don't think any NFL team can chalk up a season to rebuilding anymore. Beyond the parity and 50% turnover in playoff teams every year, there was not that much "tearing down" to do. We need a QB. We need a LT. We need a #1WR. In some order, but any team can win if they just keep most of the starters they have healthy even if they are not all that good normally vs the rest of the division. Like the Clowns last season. They were expected to win 4 games, but they won 10. One reason was they got rookies and new players to play way beter than anyone expected, but the main reason is they got most of the starters on the feild for most of the games.

I am not of the opinion that Boller can not play in the NFL. He has looked very good at times, and pretty bad at times, but more often than not he is just average. The Billick factor is a tough one to gauge. If he improves any where near as much as the average first year player AB (after Billick), such as Jamal, DA, Chestor, Preist, even Dilfer and Travis Taylor had one sudden burst of good footbal the first year outside the parameters, so I am inclined to keep Boller around long enough to see.

The problem is the free agent QBs are signing a little faster than I am finding out if Kyle can play in this new system.

I was not totally locked on Daunte until Byron, Brett, Chad and company were not available. Now there is a little more urgency, and even if there is actually no real interest in him on the Ravens part, I would at least like to stir up some rumour to keep the hope alive.

If we wait until the end of the preseason, the only options other than Kyle will be trading for someone from TB or Kurt Warner or someone like that if we want a vet to show the rookie how it is done.

purplepoe

08-12-2008, 04:34 PM

None of your points are valid.

1. kyle is in the last year of his contract. The only cap hit occurs when bonus money form future years is accelerated. No future years, no cap hit. His salary can all go directly to other players.

2. Teams can work out an extension before trading for him as long as the Ravens allow it.

3.The O line can properly protect our QBs if the OC properly calls the protections and plays to suit the talen on the feild. You saw vs the starting NE D line how screens, draws and chip blocking can neutralise a huge mismatch for the DE. Quick hitting plays, inside running and better coaching can all help improve our blocking.

Like I said about the 2006 O line, the Qb has a lot to do with the protection by reading the defense and changing the protection or the play.

4. defensivly we clearly have the most talent not only in our division but in the NFL, but I can see how you question the talent on offense. The numbers Heap and Mason put up when with a decent QB are hard to ignore though. Clayton and Williams had several solid games in 2006, but are not proven. Take the skill guys as a whole though and they look pretty good. Focus on the T posiiton and there is concern, but when you look at the C and the G spots, we have more than enough talent and size on the O line to be better than average.

5. The O line did not get McNair killed as much as Billick did. First of all he should have sent him into the locker room to get checked out after the second fumblle. He left him out there innefective, put him in the game without practice, and refused to pull him regardless of performance or risk of further injury.

1. I'm not sure but I don't think you are correct. The Ravens would be on the hook for at least something if they cut Boller.

2. Who the hell is gonna 1. trade for him and 2. extend him?

3. This notion that it was somehow the protection calls that prevent this line from blocking well is laughable. The tackles stink. Period. Stop with your BS about Billick being the sole reason this offense has stunk. You've only got a few more weeks to spout this crap. Then you'll see what the real problem is. The NE game? The first preseason game of the season? That's what your basing this theory off of? Gimme a break.

4. I love how you just toss the tackle position's problem aside because the inside is solid. Yea, I'm sure some new schemes will make whatever two slugs we throw out there all of a sudden protect the QB.

5. LOL. Billick got McNair killed? Answer me something. What players under Billick didn't perform? Of course, that's assuming you actually will lay some blame on the players and our overrated GM.

As for Culpepper. If you did any research you'd know that he wants to come in and start. He wants no part of being a backup. That's why he didn't sign with GB. Because he didn't want to backup Rodgers. The dude hasn't been healthy since that knee injury. He would be an absolute disaster here.

PP

StingerNLG

08-12-2008, 06:05 PM

Wow. I am getting old and a little slower. I can't believe we all walked into another Kyle Boller bashing thead, disguised as a "sincere" inquiry about getting Dante Culpepper. :(

Anyway, I am not going to engage in another tired Boller thread other than to make the following points, which BTW are perfectly valid:

1) I'm pretty sure bonus money is a prorated piece of the player's salary. The current salary counts towards the cap. Not just the signing bonuses. If they cut Boller now I believe some of his money goes against the cap.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/columns/clayton_john/1514182.html

2) No team trades for a guy in a contract year unless the circumstances are totally in place for it. If there were any players that were, they aren't well known to me.

3) If you honestly think we have an offense that can compete with NE, and the rest of the AFC North, then I have to give you props. I don't see how you field a team with one of your starting tackles laying concrete last year, and the other spending last year on the practice squad, and expect to be able to win the division.

If you honestly think we can win the division or compete with NE with just one good TE on the team, then you have a rosier outlook than I do, and I am a PSL owner! And BTW, when is the last time Heap practiced or played? Oh that's right, he's injured again. Well, there's always Dan Wil........errrrr........Lee Vicke...........umm........hey is Quinn still on the team?

4) Billick as far as I know didn't pull McNair's groin or tackle him on the field damaging his shoulder. You can try to blame Billick all you want, that doesn't make it true.

And finally

4) I would have loved to have had Dante Culpepper 5 years ago. Hell, i would have loved to have had him the week before he blew his knee out. But the bottom line is that Culpepper is damaged goods. He was cut from Miami for pete's sake!! Until Favre was traded from Green Bay, Miami's starter could have been Luke McGown or John Beck!

Edit: To clarify and before anyone says anything, I know he was traded to the Jets.

Dante's knee is a liability and that is a fact. He is not a scrambler, which he would need to be if he wanted to survive. But his knee is one hit away from shredding, and there is no way you want that here.

Anyway, since this really just a Boller-bashing thread, which has gotten older than my actual age, I'm out.

purplepoe

08-12-2008, 06:18 PM

Anyway, since this really just a Boller-bashing thread, which has gotten older than my actual age, I'm out.

Actually, it's not a Boller bashing thread.

It's a Billick bashing thread.

PP

highwater

08-12-2008, 07:13 PM

We have the 4th place schedule advantage. We have arguably the best roster, and the best player at more positions than any other team in the division.

If you think the fourth place schedule is a huge advantage, I don't really agree, seeing as how every team in our division plays the same teams expect for two games. It could be an advantage but necessarily a big one, since it's only two games and a lot of teams get better or worse from season to season. Just look at the Saints, Bears and (yes) the Ravens last year.

As far as having "arguably the best roster," I agree that it's arguable.

And your assertion that "the Oline didn't get McNair killed as much as Billick did" is pretty funny, although I assume you didn't intend it to be. We were down to our third string QB by the end of last season for a reason, and it wasn't Billick.

HoustonRaven

08-13-2008, 08:52 AM

On paper, Cleveland has a far better team position by position.

They are only really lacking right now at the LB and possibly the FS areas.

.... on paper that is.

Greg

08-13-2008, 09:18 AM

Without Randy Moss and Cris Carter Culpepper is crap.

Jeremiah W

08-13-2008, 10:42 AM

This is not a bashing anyone thread. I simply want to add a veteran QB with some credentials to the mix at QB compettion since Kyle is not respected by any NFL experts, Troy is basically a rookie from the 5th round, and Flacco is expected to red shirt the season.

I like Kyle. I root for him. I just dont trust him to produce more TDs than turnovers.
I like Billck a lot. I did not agree with many of his choices for the offense, but as a leader I respect his style. Perhaps he gets too much blame, but I don't see who else to hold responsible for the results of the offense. It was his show even when he had an OC to over rule with prudent predictable playcalling and clock mismanagement.

For the sake of argument, the veteran QB we bring in to compete with Kyle does not have to be Daunte. It could be anyone who has been a starter, has more TDs than turnovers and preferably has won a playoffgame.

I am interested in Kurt Warner, MArk Brunnell looked decent the other day, Chris Simms, Brian Greise, one of the McCown boys, I would bring in Aaron Brooks for a workout, and I would have Dr Andrews and all my medical people take a look at Daunte's knee.

I would keep 4 Qbs and cut a LB or WR until we find one that can play. Had we done so before DA would not be leading the Clowns back to national prominance.

If the Ravens decide to cut or trade Kyle though there is absolutly no finacial penalty. Trust me, I have researched it. Like DeAngello Hall from ATL to Oaktown, or McNair to Harm City, they can let him negotiate a new deal before they trade him, or just keep him around all year just in case. Kyle will not cause a problem in the press. I just want more options, and Daunte seems like the right player at the right price, just perhaps not the right time.

I guess the Ravens and Daunte should wait and see how our QBs look this weekend, and what injuries happen around the NFL, but I think we should act now before the market dries up and Brooks or Vinny are the only options.

As far as the other concerns that have convinced the Ravens are already out of contention, I don't know what to tell you. Todd Heap and Wilcox are key, and questionable, so are Gaither and Terry, but I have not heard or seen anything to indicate they wont be able to play this season. Sprains and muscle pulls in camp are not nearly as troubling to me as ACL injuries, surguries and PUP list talk or IR.

Outside of those 4 players and positons, I feel pretty good about what we have on paper. I read even the Madden ratings people even gave the roster some props. 18 players rated 84 or above, and 12 rated 90 or higher. They always slight us too.

One reason the Ravens have always been somewhat underrated is the relationship with Billick and the national media. They always liked to take cheap shots and jokes, higlight the mistakes and gloss over the success.

The 2006 team was usually the last highlight in the lineup, and the most unheralded 2 seed in the AFC I can remember. Most of those players are still here, healthy and looking for some payback and due respect.

I expect to see a a very different approach and attitude on offense, and a guy like Lorenzo Neal was perfect to help instill it.

Jeremiah W

08-13-2008, 10:51 AM

If you think the fourth place schedule is a huge advantage, I don't really agree, seeing as how every team in our division plays the same teams expect for two games. It could be an advantage but necessarily a big one, since it's only two games and a lot of teams get better or worse from season to season. Just look at the Saints, Bears and (yes) the Ravens last year.

As far as having "arguably the best roster," I agree that it's arguable.

And your assertion that "the Oline didn't get McNair killed as much as Billick did" is pretty funny, although I assume you didn't intend it to be. We were down to our third string QB by the end of last season for a reason, and it wasn't Billick.

We get Miami and Oakland The Steelers get NE and SD. Could be a 4 game swing. Maybe not, but it is an advantage on paper at least.

The roster thing is almost impossible to prove, but when you breakdown other teams rosters, they usually have more than 4 or 5 starting spots that are qustionable, and not as many quality players on the bubble.

psuasskicker

08-13-2008, 11:22 AM

For the sake of argument, the veteran QB we bring in to compete with Kyle does not have to be Daunte. It could be anyone who has been a starter, has more TDs than turnovers and preferably has won a playoffgame.

Steve Young's probably available.

Joe Montana might be as well.

Those guys were awesome QBs! Why don't we bring them in??? Why hasn't anyone else signed them yet?!?!?

The point is, you don't just look at what a QB did over their career and say they're worth bringing in. Just like you argue that Culpepper is a good QB... He's done shit the last three years. He's not a good QB anymore. There aren't any out there that are "good" QBs. There aren't even any measurably better than Boller; and at this point, Boller knows the system and a new QB would have less than four weeks to learn it.

It's not worth it. Get over it.

- C -

Jeremiah W

08-13-2008, 01:21 PM

Steve Young's probably available.

Joe Montana might be as well.

Those guys were awesome QBs! Why don't we bring them in??? Why hasn't anyone else signed them yet?!?!?

The point is, you don't just look at what a QB did over their career and say they're worth bringing in. Just like you argue that Culpepper is a good QB... He's done shit the last three years. He's not a good QB anymore. There aren't any out there that are "good" QBs. There aren't even any measurably better than Boller; and at this point, Boller knows the system and a new QB would have less than four weeks to learn it.

It's not worth it. Get over it.

- C -

That is a pretty dumb ass response to a valid question. Daunte had a higher QB rating than Kyle last year and he was a backup for the Raiders. I have heard and read a lot of national NFL writers say he is the best qb on the market. Young and Aikman are not currently on the market.

How can you seriously say Kyle is the best possible option? Based on what? The fact that you have not seen Cullpepper in the probowl recently does not change the fact that he has been there and Kyle will always have to buy a ticket.

The knee looks OK here.
http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80453f48

here

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d8048be1a

and here
http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80451b1f
http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d803b6c8e
http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d8048adfa

They have a whole page on NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d8048adfa) of Daunte clips from last year. I challenge you to find as many nice throws in Kyle's carrer as he made just last year.

I am not saying cut Kyle (although we could with no cap penalty), I am saying bring in Daunte and see what he has got. Keep 4 Qbs for a while and get rid of someone else.

HoustonRaven

08-13-2008, 01:33 PM

Just because a better QB is sitting at home farting into his sofa doesnt mean we need (or should) go after them.

I am sorry but it's not a valid scenario -- I think you're on an island, JW

Jeremiah W

08-13-2008, 01:36 PM

Ask Rod Woodson. (@3:00 mark of this video)

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80902da9

HoustonRaven

08-13-2008, 01:59 PM

Jeremiah W

08-13-2008, 02:17 PM

And?

You and Rod make ... wait, let me take off my shoes ... only 2 people are making this argument.

In said video, Rod said "no matter where he will go it will be in the backup role". Not to mention, the entire video was shot back in June, before the start of training camp.

They say when you're in a hole, the best way to get yourself out is to first stop digging.

I still stand by it even if alone. I heard John Clayton raving about Daunte this weekend on the Huddle (his weekly radio show). He was a little perplexed about the lack of interest in him, saying he is clearly the best free agent QB on the market.

I understand he wants to start, I think we have an open competion going on right now and just want him in it. I am pretty sure he would win, but I do love the fact that they are making someone earn it and not just handing over to Troy or Kyle.

The knee seems fine, I think Harbs, Cam and Ray can help him get his mind right. If he is willing to sign for the right price, I can not see any reason not to bring him in.

The arguments I have read in this thread are all about he has not done S, or his knee is no good, but that is why he is available and possible the right price if can pass a physical and have a good workout.

Are we still trying to protect the starting QBs ego? I am so sick of that excuse for keeping a non performing QB in the saddle. I Kyle wan't to stay on the team, play better than another Vet hungry for yet another chance, not just a couple of rookies who are going to make the roster either way.

StingerNLG

08-13-2008, 03:29 PM

Ok. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on this. I've seen too many of these threads disguise themselves. I'm sorry, but I'm just not understanding how you can justify dropping another position on the team, one that could be used for our ever depleting injury-ridden roster, for a 4th QB just to come in and compete for a job at the tail end of training camp.

Who are you willing to cut?

There is a reason Dante has not been picked up by another team yet. 31 other teams have no desire to have him come in and start. There are a number of places that Dante could have gone and competed for a starters job, including going back to Miami, Kansas City, Chicago, etc: I'm sure after the bust that Alex Smith has been in San Fran that they would be looking for another possible answer. And yet all those teams don't want him. Green Bay even offered him a 1 year contract.......AS A BACKUP. Wouldn't you think that if they felt Dante was a better solution than Aaron Rodgers they would have made that move?

These other QB's, offer nothing as well. You want to really waste time bringing Aaron Brooks in? That dude hasn't suited up in almost 2 years, and his career record is 38-52! I had to actually go to pro-football-reference.com to see any stats on him recently because he's not even listed at NFL.com anymore!

Kurt Warner is still in Arizona actually fighting for the job against Matt Leinart. Mainly because Leinart also hasn't been lighting it up as their 1st round pick.

The other guys you mentioned bring absolutely nothing else to the table that our current stable of QB's already can and cannot do.

Besides the fact that this is all fantasy anyway. There is no way Ozzie is going to overlook the fact that we have big issues at other positions to bring in another Quarterback to face off against Kyle Boller.

We are going with Kyle Boller or Troy Smith at QB. And I imagine we're going to get that answer Monday morning. In fact, I am with Drew Forrester on this, as he said this morning that they should just pick the damn QB and let's get on with it.

Anything else simply isn't going to happen.

ClericBlackDave

08-13-2008, 03:41 PM

Jeremiah W

08-13-2008, 04:44 PM

You guys can be satisfied with the QB situation, and you may be right that the coaches are as well, but I gaurantee Daunte will be on an NFL team this year as the starter.

Teams are still interested, his problem is his price and his idiot agent.

You are right about 1 thing, there are not many sarting jobs up for grabs right now. That is why he has turned down offers to be a back up, so he can wait until an injury or a bust opens up some better options for him.

StingerNLG

08-13-2008, 05:04 PM

Teams are still interested, his problem is his price and his idiot agent.

You are right about 1 thing, there are not many sarting jobs up for grabs right now. That is why he has turned down offers to be a back up, so he can wait until an injury or a bust opens up some better options for him.

I don't think you could be more wrong about this. Miami cut him. Oakland cut him. No one wants him as a starter.

He's sitting home on the couch right now, and it's got nothing to do with his agent.

BTW, you still never said who you'd cut to make room for this savior at QB.

B-more Ravor

08-13-2008, 05:33 PM

1. kyle is in the last year of his contract. The only cap hit occurs when bonus money form future years is accelerated. No future years, no cap hit. His salary can all go directly to other players.

1. I'm not sure but I don't think you are correct. The Ravens would be on the hook for at least something if they cut Boller.

I'm not clear on exactly how Jeremiah meant it, but you both are correct.

Kyle is in the last year of his contract and his cap number is $3.25M. Since he's in the last year of his deal, there's no more bonus money to accelerate. But, there is this year's portion of bonus money ($1.25M) that is going to count whether he's here or not.

If he's not here (not that it's going to happen), then his base salary of $2M comes off of the books and doesn't need to be paid, so since there is no future bonus money to accelerate, that entire amount ($2M) is removed from the cap. This leaves on this year's portion of bonus money ($1.25M) remaining on the books.

Dont Know

08-13-2008, 05:36 PM

Teams are still interested, his problem is his price and his idiot agent.

Daunte Culpepper is his own agent.

StingerNLG

08-13-2008, 05:38 PM

Daunte Culpepper is his own agent.

Damnit Don't Know! You gave it away!!!!! :ref: :happy:

I wanted to see if he picked up on that when I said "He's sitting on his couch right now, and it have nothing to do with his agent."

HoustonRaven

08-13-2008, 05:48 PM

You guys can be satisfied with the QB situation, and you may be right that the coaches are as well, but I gaurantee Daunte will be on an NFL team this year as the starter.

Being satisfied with the present QB situation has nothing to do with what it would take to get someone who was cut by his last two teams.

And you may want to look into who is representing him right now.

B-more Ravor

08-13-2008, 06:01 PM

Daunte Culpepper is his own agent.

Damn, you beat me to it.......... too funny. :roll:

Well, as they say, "he who represents himself as a fool for a client...." :grbac:

Jeremiah W

08-13-2008, 06:07 PM

StingerNLG

08-13-2008, 06:19 PM

Did you really think I did not know that he was own idiot agent. That is the only reason he does not have a job right now.

GB and the Steelers have brought him in to talk already and GB offered him a contract. Or so they say.

Yes, Green Bay offered him a contract.......AS A BACKUP. I said that earlier.

The Steelers talked to him......................AS A BACKUP.

Do you really think the Steelers called him up on the phone to ask him to come compete for the starting job with Ben Rothlesberger??

No one. I repeat again.......NO ONE, has called Dante Culpepper about a starting QB job in the NFL. Any job he gets right now will be as a backup, period.

purplepoe

08-13-2008, 06:22 PM

If the Ravens decide to cut or trade Kyle though there is absolutly no finacial penalty. Trust me, I have researched it.

No, you are wrong. Nice research. I figured Bmore would come in and set it straight.

Kyle is in the last year of his contract and his cap number is $3.25M. Since he's in the last year of his deal, there's no more bonus money to accelerate. But, there is this year's portion of bonus money ($1.25M) that is going to count whether he's here or not.

If he's not here (not that it's going to happen), then his base salary of $2M comes off of the books and doesn't need to be paid, so since there is no future bonus money to accelerate, that entire amount ($2M) is removed from the cap. This leaves on this year's portion of bonus money ($1.25M) remaining on the books.

Nice try though.

Outside of those 4 players and positons, I feel pretty good about what we have on paper. I read even the Madden ratings people even gave the roster some props. 18 players rated 84 or above, and 12 rated 90 or higher. They always slight us too.

One reason the Ravens have always been somewhat underrated is the relationship with Billick and the national media. They always liked to take cheap shots and jokes, higlight the mistakes and gloss over the success.

Wow. I hate it when video games slight the Ravens. I guess since they finally gave us some props we'll have a solid offense. Forget reality.

The Ravens have been underrated by the media? How can you be underrated by the media when you haven't won a playoff game since 2001?

Why is this thread still going?

Culpepper wants to come in and start dude. Do your own research and you'll find that out. He said no to GB and no to Pitt because they told him he'd be the backup. That's how delusional he is. As if he would go to Pitt and start. Ben would have to snap his leg in half for Tomlin to throw Pepper in there.

You want to keep 4 QBs on this team?

Brilliant.

O wait, I know. Since you've said this team has the most talent of any team in the division (which is laughable), I guess we can afford to skimp on another position to add a QB who won't help a damn thing.

This team is FAR from just being a QB away.

You'll finally see that in a few weeks.

PP

Dade

08-13-2008, 07:03 PM

Wow can't believe this conversation is still going on.

Let this guy live on his island by himself believing Dante to be the savior of the Ravens. It wont and shouldn't happen.

Everyone here knows we are more than just a QB away from being great.

The fact you actually tried using the Madden rating system as a benchmark for how the Ravens will perform in real life on the field, suggests to me that you have no idea what your talking about.

psuasskicker

08-13-2008, 07:59 PM

but I gaurantee Daunte will be on an NFL team this year as the starter.

I'd happy to bet you $250 even money that Culpepper will not start 8 games this NFL season if I thought there was any possibility you'd pay me when I won.

- C -

StingerNLG

08-13-2008, 10:22 PM

I'd happy to bet you $250 even money that Culpepper will not start 8 games this NFL season if I thought there was any possibility you'd pay me when I won.

- C -

I'll take that bet in Madden IQ points. :laugh:

HoustonRaven

08-14-2008, 07:20 AM

I will put up that money too ....

One condition though. It cant be because of injury.

Jeremiah W

08-14-2008, 09:36 AM

I still can not believe you guys are hating on the Love Boat. Daunte can steer this ship back to the playoffs, or at least take us on a funky ride.

I guess i am just a Boller basher at heart and was trying to get Billick fired for 5 years. I try to like Kyle. I see the potential, the toughness, arm strength, mobility, but the turnovers, so many fumbles and forced throws into quadrouple coverage when he has plenty of protection.

Every QB has turnovers. Daunte has been a fumbling machine as well, but at least he got hit before he dropped the ball, and he made up for a lot of those fumbles with rushing yards and TDs. Moss may have made him great, but he can at least be good if healthy and with some talented players around him.

The national media all say the same thing, "we have no QB". The roster may say 3 QBs, but they say we have none. Daunte is "A Quarterback" and there are other so called QBs available or soon to be via trade or release.

The whole point of this thread was not to get Kyle out of here, it was to point out that even if it is an open comp, it is not a legit one if it does not include at least 1 guy fighting to make the team and 2 veteran guys.

There are 4 QBs in most of the camps where the starter is not established. Joe is basically a redshirt I hope. Not many people seem to want him to play this season even if they think he will be great one day. I am a Troy Smith fan, am am not trying to undermine him either, but he is a 5th round pick and basically a rookie himself.

The price has to be right. I had no interest in Favre for @12 mil and draft picks, but Pennington for 3 or 4 mill and no picks was pretty much my first choice. Jeff Garcia if Tampa cuts him. Brian Griesie or Chris Simms maybe. Someone, anyone. Just a 4th body who is hungry for a job that has shown some skills in the NFL, even if it is just to push the 3 guys along that are not exactly inspiring a lot of confidence in anyone.

As far as the ravens being a QB away from being in contention, what else do they need to be able to do? They can run the ball, they can stop the run. When healthy they are the top coverage unit in the NFL. If they can just get middle of the road production from the passing game, there is no reason they can not win this division. That just means more TDs than turnovers, and I really think the OC will help with that as well, no matter who is under center.

HoustonRaven

08-14-2008, 09:46 AM

Jeremiah W

08-14-2008, 10:06 AM

You know what I cant believe?

I cant believe this thread is still alive.

We're not even close to being one QB away from SB contention. We can stop the run? What are you basing this on? We basically have a completely different line from last year. We also dont have legit top-tier WR's to catch the ball that Joe Bollersmith throws them.

So you are basing what we can not do, on what you saw last year, but not the things we could do?

Last year we were #2 vs the run, and Willis got 1200 yards playing only 1st and 2nd downs for 14 games, on a team that was almost always trailing and leading the NFL in turnovers.

We have WRs, we have at least 1 TE, and we have a couple of good RBs. The interior 3 OL is solid, and now we have a couple of good FBs. The backup CBs were upgraded and so were the special teams units.

So we don't have an all pro LT, or broken down vet QB anymore, but we still have basically the same core team that won the division by 5 games when healthy, not with more experience from young contibutors to that squad like Nagta, Landry and Jason Brown, Clayton and Williams.

HoustonRaven

08-14-2008, 10:19 AM

So you are basing what we can not do, on what you saw last year, but not the things we could do?

Last year we were #2 vs the run, and Willis got 1200 yards playing only 1st and 2nd downs for 14 games, on a team that was almost always trailing and leading the NFL in turnovers.

We have WRs, we have at least 1 TE, and we have a couple of good RBs. The interior 3 OL is solid, and now we have a couple of good FBs. The backup CBs were upgraded and so were the special teams units.

So we don't have an all pro LT, or broken down vet QB anymore, but we still have basically the same core team that won the division by 5 games when healthy, not with more experience from young contibutors to that squad like Nagta, Landry and Jason Brown, Clayton and Williams.

Dude you are all over the place ....

YOU made the assertion we're one QB away. Other then giving a history lesson about 2 years ago, you provide NOTHING but a purple-eyed view of what COULD be.

I hate to be the one to bring you into this realm we all call reality, but we're NOT THE SAME TEAM AS IN 2006!

Completely new coaching staff, sans one.

We have no stud WR's.

Our line is banged up.

Since our line is banged up, our running game is in question going into the first 4 weeks of the season.

You LOVE looking at all the parts but have, not once, looked at the SUM OF THOSE PARTS.

StingerNLG

08-14-2008, 10:44 AM

Hahahaha, this is awesome.

Houston, he still hasn't told us who he would cut to make room for the one who would lead us to the promised land.

Jeremiah W

08-14-2008, 10:47 AM

Dude you are all over the place ....

YOU made the assertion we're one QB away. Other then giving a history lesson about 2 years ago, you provide NOTHING but a purple-eyed view of what COULD be.

I hate to be the one to bring you into this realm we all call reality, but we're NOT THE SAME TEAM AS IN 2006!

Completely new coaching staff, sans one.

We have no stud WR's.

Our line is banged up.

Since our line is banged up, our running game is in question going into the first 4 weeks of the season.

You LOVE looking at all the parts but have, not once, looked at the SUM OF THOSE PARTS.

Your a chicken. John Kitna has higher expectations.

This is the same WR/TE group as in 2006, Clayton and Williams should be better, and Figurs and Smith should be better than Darling. The RBs should be better with McClain and Neal, Rice and Willis. 3 of the O line should be better than the 06 unit (Brown, Grubbs and Yanda), I think one of the Ts can match the play of Pashos that year.

The defense is the defense. Even you know what they can do when the offense does not put them in a hole and they are not decimated by injury. Even then they are still #6, when intact with half decent production from the offense they were clearly the best D in the NFL.

Special teams was sort of down in 06 after PJ broke his leg. Figurs is more explosive than he ever was, and the coverage and return units have a lot more talent as well. Stover even seems to have a stronger leg than he did a few years ago, and Koch is a top 5 punter by average and inside the 20.

There is the schedule advantage, the injury factor, the Billick factor, and hopfully we have seen the last of the Boller factor as well.

This is the NFL where parity is the plan. The Clowns turned it around in one season and so can we. The Saints went from worst to first and back down again. The Eagles are the NFC champs whe healthy, 4th in the division when Donovan goes down for part of the season.

The only teams to really have a strangle hold on the divisions they play in recently have been Indy, NE and Seattle, but the Rams have been better when healthy and horrible when hurt, and the Jets and Dolphins have been playoff teams when intact and in the top of the draft when the injuries pile up.

I don't know what else I can tell you to give some hope for a post season party, but parity is the plan, and with the talent we have and division we are in, we are in contention.

If we can't agree on that, there is no way we can agree on the extra vet Qb and possible end of the Boller era. If we are just going to try to win 6 games and get Flacco some PT we may as well start Kyle, but if we have plans to win the division and see what happens, I think the QB competion should include a better option.

Jeremiah W

08-14-2008, 10:52 AM

You want me write Gary Stills name down? Pittman, you pick the name if you don't want me to say cut Kyle today and bring in Daunte.

HoustonRaven

08-14-2008, 10:58 AM

Please, for the love of God let a Mod close down this thread ....

Yeah, I am a chicken when I have the balls to take off the purple glasses and see our team in the light of day.

I am a chicken when I front thousands of my own money to see the team I love play every year (flying in from Texas no less).

I am a chicken for knowing the difference between smart roster moves and QB pipe dreams because 5 years ago, Pepper was able to find Moss for a bunch of TD's.

I am a chicken for remembering Pepper getting cut by not one, but two teams.

I am a chicken for knowing that our roster is set and, baring an injury, this just wont happen.

Well shit, dip me in flour and call me fried then.

highwater

08-14-2008, 02:26 PM

Now that we've established that Houston is a chicken, let me add my two cents to this inexplicably lengthy discussion, in summary form:

-- Dante Culpepper is very unlikely to help the Ravens;

-- Dante Culpepper has not had an effective season in YEARS;

-- If Dante Culpepper really believes he can and will get a starting job, he's dreaming.

Ravenswarrior19

08-14-2008, 03:28 PM

I wish we would talk Trent Dilfer out of retirement.

I think I'm joking ... mostly .... maybe ... i think.

Dont Know

08-14-2008, 04:25 PM

I am hoping the Steelers cut Dennis Dixon so we can add him to the mix.

Wait, he is not a vet, nm...

Jeremiah W

08-14-2008, 05:08 PM

I am hoping the Steelers cut Dennis Dixon so we can add him to the mix.

Wait, he is not a vet, nm...

The TB Bucks may try to sneak Josh Johnson onto the practice squad also, or release a vet QB.

purplepoe

08-14-2008, 06:10 PM

You want me write Gary Stills name down? Pittman, you pick the name if you don't want me to say cut Kyle today and bring in Daunte.

Those guys are on the bubble as is. They could easily be on the outside looking in without adding a 4th QB. Do you follow this team? Do you watch the same players we do?

Those are serious questions.

PP

The Fanatic

08-14-2008, 06:32 PM

Pardon me while I just step in here and laugh at this conversation.
:roll: :roll:

So is Randy Moss coming in with Culpepper to help lead us to the promised land?
Ya know that O-line they both played behind would be kind of nice too.

I'd like to think our star RB is on the same level as Robert Smith, but ours can't even seem to get on the practice field much less be a complete pain in the ass to the oppositions defenses.

You fellas carry on now...:girlfight :girlfight

Mad Puppy

08-15-2008, 07:52 PM

Culpepper is not an option he is washed up. I can't think of any "veteran" QB's that would be worth anything.

What the Ravens really need is a director of QB scouting. After all Ozzie wanted Leftwich in the past (a bad QB), and has drafted underwhelming QB's since (Boller, Smith, and now Flacco). Stop trying to be cute and outsmart everyone. Draft a good QB and stop focusing on all the guy's nobody has heard about.

highwater

08-16-2008, 05:44 AM

Stop trying to be cute and outsmart everyone. Draft a good QB and stop focusing on all the guy's nobody has heard about.

What? First of all, it's obviously way too early to pass judgement on the Flacco pick, and regardless of what you think of Boller and Smith, to suggest that nobody had heard of them is just not right.

psuasskicker

08-16-2008, 10:38 AM

What the Ravens really need is a director of QB scouting. After all Ozzie wanted Leftwich in the past (a bad QB), and has drafted underwhelming QB's since (Boller, Smith, and now Flacco). Stop trying to be cute and outsmart everyone. Draft a good QB and stop focusing on all the guy's nobody has heard about.

These are ridiculous statements. It's not like no one else thought highly of Leftwich. It's the same thing as saying the Chargers were morons for drafting Leaf. It's not like they thought highly of him and everyone else had him graded as a 6th rounder.

I really especially like how you say that a 5th rounder isn't good as if he's supposed to be a super-star, and this year's first rounder who's taken maybe seven or eight snaps in one preseason game is a bust. Awe inspiring.

- C -

Jeremiah W

08-16-2008, 10:00 PM

Now it is time to call someone. Kyle is just a turnover waiting to happen. I can not take it from him. Troy had some mistakes but at least he is making plays. Kyle dinks, dunks and fumbles then forces into coverage when the short stuff fails to produce first downs.

jonboy79

08-16-2008, 10:03 PM

huh 3 yards passing at half is making plays? OH you mean the ONE single 18 yard scramble... OK...

It's too late to call someone, Pennington was our last chance.

Dont Know

08-16-2008, 10:05 PM

before you call a QB, call some tackles. Seriously.

jonboy79

08-16-2008, 10:12 PM

Same problem with both, same reason we have neither...

No anyone of any value worth calling?
At least we have a pair of tackles coming back.

Dont Know

08-16-2008, 10:22 PM

Probably not, maybe someone in the CFL if they pony up the cash.

StingerNLG

08-16-2008, 10:25 PM

This thread is still a joke.

Jeremiah W

08-16-2008, 10:44 PM

This thread is still a joke.

Your contributions have been, but I think the need for at least another option at QB was apparent tonight. Flacco is pretty far from taking over. Troy Smith looks like he is close to being a servicable QB, but he is not good.
Boller is just painfull to watch. I thought he was going to get himself killed standing in the pocket. He seems to have no idea how much time he has, what the coverage is, or where to go when the protection breaks down.

Kyle is at best a journeyman, Jake Plummer type, but he does not have the resume or results needed to mentor the young QBs, and the fact that he was in an open competion with a rookie and a 2nd year 5th round pick are evidence enough that he is not good. He should have been the starter going in and maybe Troy can beat him out.

Cut Frank Walker and sign the Love Boat. Then cut Kyle if he does not win the starting job next week.

Seriously, how about a 5th rounder for Kurt Warner?

Throw in Kyle?

Mad Puppy

08-16-2008, 10:45 PM

These are ridiculous statements. It's not like no one else thought highly of Leftwich. It's the same thing as saying the Chargers were morons for drafting Leaf. It's not like they thought highly of him and everyone else had him graded as a 6th rounder.

I really especially like how you say that a 5th rounder isn't good as if he's supposed to be a super-star, and this year's first rounder who's taken maybe seven or eight snaps in one preseason game is a bust. Awe inspiring.

- C -

As "Awe inspiring" as Smith who is everybody's darling here. The way people on this message board talk Smith could walk on water. He never should have been drafted. Again I say Ozzie cannot evaluate QB talent. After all he wanted to put Derek Anderson on the practice squad, lost him and we all know how that turned out.

StingerNLG

08-16-2008, 10:48 PM

Whatever Jeremiah. Whatever makes you feel better. Yeah, let's go get Kurt Warner.

:eyes:

crpravens

08-18-2008, 04:18 PM

Please tell me why Ozzie still has his job after another horrible offseason where our offense was not improved?

StingerNLG

08-18-2008, 05:14 PM

Please tell me why Ozzie still has his job after another horrible offseason where our offense was not improved?

I bet Brian Billick is starting to ask the same question.

HoustonRaven

08-19-2008, 08:16 AM

Hey JW,

The Bears let Rex Grossman go .... maybe we should get him too?

Jeremiah W

08-19-2008, 09:55 AM

Galen Sevinne

08-19-2008, 10:42 AM

That leaves the Ravens as the only team who has held onto the first round QB bust the longest. All the rest of the ones picked before, and most of the ones after Kyle have hit the street. Somehow Kyle continues on, throwing into tripple coverage, staring down screen passes, fumbling on anticipated contact, and looking like a rookie 6 years into his NFL carreer.

You don't like Dontae, fine, but tell me what about Kyle you are so fond of that he is the one and only Qb who can guide this years Ravens to a 3 place finish?

John Clayton, hall of fame NFL writer once again said today on Mike and Mike that Daunte is the best QB on the market, and the price has got to be no more than what we save by cutting Kyle. You can argue with my evaluation of Daunte, but I would like to hear your case against Clayton's expert opinion.

I don't think the front office is looking at this year as a playoff year but instead a year to make some final decisions in these three qb's...really mainly Boller and Smith. To bring in another QB at this time for a one year fix so that maybe we could go 9-7 instead of 7-9 would only screw that process up. A new Qb would have to start from scratch and probaly wouldn't be comortable until week 5-6.

As soon as fans get to the place where they are not looking for a superbowl contender the better off they will be. I think Harbaugh and Cameron are using this year to (hopefully) prune this team of some dead branches from the Billick era and begin anew next year.

For the first time that I can remember and this is going back to the Bert Jones era, I am not completey excited about the beginning of the season. After going to training camp and watching the 1st 2 preseason games, it is very obvious the problems run much deeper than the QB. I will be excited on Sunday's in the stadium and will hope for wins always but will keep a perspective on this year. A one year fix of a QB wil do nothing but cloud the QB picture which is already as unclear as the hot and hazy days of a chesapeake summer.

Let it be and look for positive signs of development on Sundays not necessarily wins.

purplepoe

08-19-2008, 10:44 AM

Hey JW,

The Bears let Rex Grossman go .... maybe we should get him too?

Not that I want him but I've read nothing about Grossman being released.

Orton was named the starter over Grossman.

Where did you read or hear that the Bears cut Grossman.

PP

HoustonRaven

08-19-2008, 11:08 AM

Not that I want him but I've read nothing about Grossman being released.

Orton was named the starter over Grossman.

Where did you read or hear that the Bears cut Grossman.

PP

My bad. I was watching Sportscenter on my way out the door and didnt hear it correctly.

Orton named starter only.

Jeremiah W

08-19-2008, 11:21 AM

I don't think the front office is looking at this year as a playoff year but instead a year to make some final decisions in these three qb's...really mainly Boller and Smith. To bring in another QB at this time for a one year fix so that maybe we could go 9-7 instead of 7-9 would only screw that process up. A new Qb would have to start from scratch and probaly wouldn't be comortable until week 5-6.

As soon as fans get to the place where they are not looking for a superbowl contender the better off they will be. I think Harbaugh and Cameron are using this year to (hopefully) prune this team of some dead branches from the Billick era and begin anew next year.

For the first time that I can remember and this is going back to the Bert Jones era, I am not completey excited about the beginning of the season. After going to training camp and watching the 1st 2 preseason games, it is very obvious the problems run much deeper than the QB. I will be excited on Sunday's in the stadium and will hope for wins always but will keep a perspective on this year. A one year fix of a QB wil do nothing but cloud the QB picture which is already as unclear as the hot and hazy days of a chesapeake summer.

Let it be and look for positive signs of development on Sundays not necessarily wins.

I hear what you are saying, but you clearly explained exactly what i disagreee with, the expectations and goals this season.

We have not seen even most of the starting lineup on the feild at the same time yet. I don't know if we will, but if we do, on paper it is good enough to win this division. Every team in the AFC N has as many injuries and questions as the Ravens do right now, most of them worse.

The Steelers have serious questions on O line, D line, and the secondary play has been in steady decline. Week 17 may have been a lot of back ups vs backups, but there is no way the Steelers had conceeded the game at any point. They just could not stop our running game and 3rd string rookie Qb without Polamalu at full speed if our Qb does not stand there in the pocket and wait to get hit.
They have the sickest schedule I have ever seen, and the Ravens have won 4 of the last 5 meetings.

The Browns are still the Clowns. They proved last season just how easy it can be to turn a losing seaon into a winning one, but it takes a lot more defensive consistancy to win at the end of the year. They have no CBs. The best one they have got torched by the Giants 3rd and 4th string WRs last night. They have one pass rusher (no where near as good as Suggs or Pryce), and injuries are hitting them hard.
Last year they stayed pretty healthy while we were shredded by injury, but until the officals changed the call of the FG, "after a lot of further discussion", the Ravens were celebrating a win over them.

The Bungles are a dysfunctional franchise. They needed 12 almost unforced turnovers and a horrible offensive pass interference call to beat us last year. Billick only had to stick with the running game and the Bungles would never have gotten close. They let Jamal rack up 200 yards on them in one game last year. SD and Sean Merriman allowed Adrian Peteron to break Jamal's single game rushing record last year also, but unlike SD, the Bungles never really improved vs the run. Ocho Stinko and TJ are more questionable for week 1 than McCallister and Rolle, and if they are bringing Henry back, they must be feeling desperate.
The best 2 defenders they had left via free agency, and I predict they will be the worst rush defense in the NFL this year by far.

That really is a fair snapshot of the issues facing the competion, and the Ravens at least are expecting most of the injured players back, have a softer schedule on paper, and are finally rid of Billick's offensive scheme.

I am not saying the Ravens are the favorite, but to write the seaoson off to rebuilding is just not a realistic appraoch. We may play the AFC S and NFC E this year, but we don't have to win those divisions, we just have to win ours and 9-7 may be plenty. 7-9 may actually even get it done. Kyle Boller most likley will not get us 9-7 in my opinion.

A & S Football

08-19-2008, 11:58 AM

Jeremiah W

08-19-2008, 12:58 PM

Name 1 QB we can get that won't get killed behind our offensive line? It doesn't matter who it is, they won't have protection till the line is improved, and until that happens, no one will succeed at QB here.

The QB and the playcaller make the protection work. If the LT can n ot block the DE for 5 steps, they throw 3 step patterns, draws, traps and double teams at him to neutralise the mismatch.

They said the same thing about the 2006 O line. There is no way Flynn, Brown, Chester, Pashos and Vincent will be able to protect McNair. They were getting Kyle killed every other week, how can McNair survive those shots? By not taking so long to throw the football. Not helping the coverage by staring down his primary reciever. By using hard counts, audibles, motion, pump fakes and look offs to keep the defense off balance, a Qb and OC can dramatically impact the ability of the O line to protect.
They can use the RBS and TEs to chip block. They can call quick screens that use the speed advantage against the DE. There are many other things you can do to gameplan a DE. If you can not block the NT or and interior DT, there is not much you can do other than get help from the G or C next to him, but even if they can get him blocked with a double team, his penetration and extra attention allows the DE to operate 1 on 1 vs a T he has a mismatch on.

By putting Brown at C, Grubbs and Yanda at G, they have solidified that area that was always a bigger concern on O than the T situation with JO looming large. Even with JO, teams would run stunts in the middle and get worse pressure on the Qb than if he had an edge rusher that he could simply step up into the pocket and avoid, if there was a pocket to step up into.

So far, the interior 3 has handled the most impressive 2 D lines in the NFL. Seymore, Wilfork and Green got blocked consistantly, and they even sealed off the Viking fron 4 play after play. Rice had room to work and no one to avoid behind the line. Slaughter even had a great block on Allen to seal the edge on the TD.

The WR situation is a little questioable having not seen much from Clayton and nothing from Williams yet, but I am optimistic about the group after watching Smith in practice and Figurs show decent hands. If Clayton and Williams can just return to 2006 form the WR core should be a solid to average unit.

The QBs have been a lot less than inspiring. Troy looks like he has the poise and the legs, but he is basically a rookie.
Kyle looks like a guy who is not a good QB. Has an arm, has a lot of heart, but has very little feel or skills, and makes way too many turnovers to TDS.
Flacco was my favorie prospect, but I don't think he will be ready to win for at least a year.

So basically it seems to me, the Ravens could win now if a QB steps up and Heap, Wilcox and Williams and Willis, and Reed and CMAck, Rolle and Gregg, Nagta and Suggs all get back into the mix somewhere near where they usually are.

You really never know. That is why you try to win every time. Herm Edwards may not be a great coach, but he could not be more correct when he said, "you play to win the game." There is no practice in the regular season even when out of contention. Realistically we should have tanked the Steeler game week 17 and got a better draft pick, buit F that. You play to win the game.

Last night the Clowns went down a notch. DA looked less than stellar before he got Jacked up. But unlike Kyle, he did not get right up. They are all one play away from being right where we are now at the Qb position, and we have a lot of other good things going, particuarally on D.

It almost feel crazy to have to defend 9-7 10 -6 type optimism, but I am not basing it on what we do not have, I am looking at what we do, and unless all the injuries are worse than they say (like last year), we should have a very competitive team regardless of who is the QB. ( God please do not let it be Kyle), even if it is Kyle Boller.

jonboy79

08-19-2008, 01:00 PM

Don't forget, the line will get better by default... Terry is back and Gaither will come back, and they will get better jsut by jelling...

purplepoe

08-19-2008, 01:15 PM

Don't forget, the line will get better by default... Terry is back and Gaither will come back, and they will get better jsut by jelling...

Like I said a week and a half ago Gaither wasn't close to coming back.

He still isn't. Terry is playing out of position at RT and isn't 100%.

Everyone keeps saying the line be OK when these 2 come back and "gel". Terry isn't a good RT in the first place and Gaither has proven basically nothing. What he has proven is a penchant for dogging it and not having anything close to the work ethic needed to be a starting LT in the NFL.

Our 2 starting LTs have missed invaluable time in camp and the two preseason games so far. I dunno if Terry is gonna go this Saturday but Gaither isn't.

I'm FAR from convinced that guy can come back and maybe play in the 4th preseason game and be anything close to reliable.

I'm baffled as to why anyone woudl think he could to be honest.

PP

jonboy79

08-19-2008, 01:51 PM

Ifg Gaither won't be healhty soon, Terry will be back at LT. IF Gaither will be back soon, It should be obvious that the line will improve.

purplepoe

08-19-2008, 02:09 PM

Ifg Gaither won't be healhty soon, Terry will be back at LT. IF Gaither will be back soon, It should be obvious that the line will improve.

One would think that they would put Terry at LT if Gaither is gonna be out for awhile longer but I've heard nothing to suggest they would.

He's clearly a better LT than RT and I would almost do it no matter what Gaither's situation is.

My reasoning is Gaither has a high ankle sprain and he's far from proven in the first place.

PP

Mista T

08-19-2008, 02:52 PM

One would think that they would put Terry at LT if Gaither is gonna be out for awhile longer but I've heard nothing to suggest they would.

He's clearly a better LT than RT and I would almost do it no matter what Gaither's situation is.

My reasoning is Gaither has a high ankle sprain and he's far from proven in the first place.

PP

:iagree: This entire OT positioning fiasco has me confused.

Jeremiah W

08-19-2008, 03:06 PM

:iagree: This entire OT positioning fiasco has me confused.

I think it is pretty clear that Terry is better at LT than RT, but not good. He will never be more than an OK LT, but he has the potential to be a good RT. The guy has not looked comfortable there and he has a lot to learn, but his body, his speed and his style all say RT.

Gaither has the athletic ability to get wide on the speed rushers, and out in space on screens, sweeps and such. The sky is the limit for his potential as a LT, where as the limits on Terry made him a better fit as RT even if it takes a while to get used to it.

Still not rebuilding, reloading.

No team with this many veterans and former probowlers on the roster thinks of itself as a non contender. They would have already moved most of the over 30 club if they did not think they could win the division this year.

SHORTTRACK

08-19-2008, 03:12 PM

Ozzie drafted these guys and signed Slaughter so there shouldn't be a problem ;)

Mike Mabry
Position: Center
Year: 2003
Round: 7
Pick: 36

Brian Rimpf
Position: Offensive guard
Year: 2004
Round: 7
Pick: 45

Chris Chester
Position: Center
Year: 2006
Round: 2
Pick: 24

Oniel Cousins
Position: Offensive tackle
Year: 2008
Round: 3
Pick: 99

David Hale
Position: Offensive tackle
Year: 2008
Round: 4
Pick: 133

purplepoe

08-19-2008, 03:18 PM

I think it is pretty clear that Terry is better at LT than RT, but not good. He will never be more than an OK LT, but he has the potential to be a good RT. The guy has not looked comfortable there and he has a lot to learn, but his body, his speed and his style all say RT.

Gaither has the athletic ability to get wide on the speed rushers, and out in space on screens, sweeps and such. The sky is the limit for his potential as a LT, where as the limits on Terry made him a better fit as RT even if it takes a while to get used to it.

Still not rebuilding, reloading.

No team with this many veterans and former probowlers on the roster thinks of itself as a non contender. They would have already moved most of the over 30 club if they did not think they could win the division this year.

Terry is a LT. He's much finesse than a road grader. That's why he needs to be at LT instead of RT.

Gaither certainly has much more upside but his work ethic and high ankle sprain is keeping him from see the field.

I'd feel much better about this OL with Terry at LT and Kracklek or someone else at RT.

I just don't see us getting much out of Gaither at all this year.

PP

StingerNLG

08-19-2008, 07:09 PM

Terry is a LT. He's much finesse than a road grader. That's why he needs to be at LT instead of RT.

Gaither certainly has much more upside but his work ethic and high ankle sprain is keeping him from see the field.

I'd feel much better about this OL with Terry at LT and Kracklek or someone else at RT.

I just don't see us getting much out of Gaither at all this year.

PP

I'm still waiting for someone with the Ravens to properly explain to me why Adam Terry was drafted to be an LT, and yet is slated once again to be the RT.

Can we not find Right Tackles in the league, so Terry is it?

purplepoe

08-19-2008, 08:31 PM

I'm still waiting for someone with the Ravens to properly explain to me why Adam Terry was drafted to be an LT, and yet is slated once again to be the RT.

Can we not find Right Tackles in the league, so Terry is it?

That question has lingered for years.

Seems to me it's not a high priority.

I mean, Terry was the first time this team drafted a tackle on the FIRST DAY of the draft since drafting Ogden in 1996.

Terry was adequate when he filled in for JO back in 06 for the last few games. From what I've seen of him at RT, it's pretty obvious what spot he's better at. And the most amazing part is a guy that was pouring concrete 3 weeks ago is our de facto starting LT as it is.

And please, before someone comes back with "well, Gaither is coming back and it'll be fine" crap....save it. He's proven less than Terry on the field and proven a whole lot more (on the negative side) off of it.

PP

highwater

08-20-2008, 05:50 AM

I'm still waiting for someone with the Ravens to properly explain to me why Adam Terry was drafted to be an LT, and yet is slated once again to be the RT.

I don't get it either -- the way I remember it, Terry was drafted as Ogden's eventual replacement at LT. Well, Ogden is retired, so why isn't Terry at LT? They have played him at RT and for whatever reason, he clearly isn't as good at RT as he is at LT. So why not put him it a position where is most likely to have some success?

Jeremiah W

08-20-2008, 12:06 PM

I don't get it either -- the way I remember it, Terry was drafted as Ogden's eventual replacement at LT. Well, Ogden is retired, so why isn't Terry at LT? They have played him at RT and for whatever reason, he clearly isn't as good at RT as he is at LT. So why not put him it a position where is most likely to have some success?

It is not about what is best for Adam Terry, it is what is best for the Ravens. Terry has looked better at LT than RT, but that does not mean they see him as the LT they are looking for. Last year the RT spot was effectivly held down by a rookie 3rd rounder. Pashos was strugnatious there for a year or 2 then was all of a sudden really good in 2006, then got paid in 07. RT is not a premier posiiton, and it is not a finnesse job. Terry may hae had a little too much finesse in his game, but he is 6-8 340 or so and looks like a RT, even if he does not play like one. I really like the Ol ine coach though and the improvement I have seen in Krak, and the seemless transition of Brown Grubbs and Yanda to new spots. Even with a street free agent LT, he did not get our QB killed against Seymore and Allen. So far the new coaches have impressed me, and I expect they will get more out of Terry at Rt than Billick did.

His problems at Rt really had more to do with attitude and confidence in knowing the steps and angles than it did being physically able. He just has to stay at RT long enough to learn it instead of being the swing T.

ravensmancp

08-20-2008, 11:44 PM

i lost faith in kyle a while ago. and i want to see troy develop. that's our problem. we are so inconsistent with our qb situation. need one stable guy that can carry our team. just need them to play out a full season though!

Jeremiah W

11-14-2008, 10:27 AM

RAVENOUS52

11-14-2008, 10:35 AM

I am blown away by the fact that Oz and company knew Flacco and Smith were good enough to lead this team this season. I saw what I expected from the rest of the team, but to have a rookie Qb playing this well at this point of the season still shocks me. This is Marino territory, and only Ryan is keeping the spotlight on what Flacco is doing on the somewhat downlow.

Ryan's pedigree and skill set is marginally better than Flack's, plus the Falcons winning is always big news since they've sucked for most of their existence. All Flacco has to do is remain steady and the wins will stack up and even though Ryan may edge him out for the rookie QB awards, Ravens fans won't regret picking up the tall kid from Delaware...:thumbup:

sailorsam

11-14-2008, 10:43 AM

*talk about resurrecting a thread...

I don't think anyone expected JFlacc to do this well. and I don't doubt TSmith would be/have been a capable starter.
finally we get a break at qb

HoustonRaven

11-14-2008, 10:44 AM

Ryan's pedigree and skill set is marginally better than Flack's, plus the Falcons winning is always big news since they've sucked for most of their existence. All Flacco has to do is remain steady and the wins will stack up and even though Ryan may edge him out for the rookie QB awards, Ravens fans won't regret picking up the tall kid from Delaware...:thumbup:

Agreed and would add that Ryan is enjoying a softer schedule then Flacco.

RustonRifle

11-14-2008, 10:51 AM

The QB and the playcaller make the protection work. If the LT can n ot block the DE for 5 steps, they throw 3 step patterns, draws, traps and double teams at him to neutralise the mismatch.

They said the same thing about the 2006 O line. There is no way Flynn, Brown, Chester, Pashos and Vincent will be able to protect McNair. They were getting Kyle killed every other week, how can McNair survive those shots? By not taking so long to throw the football. Not helping the coverage by staring down his primary reciever. By using hard counts, audibles, motion, pump fakes and look offs to keep the defense off balance, a Qb and OC can dramatically impact the ability of the O line to protect.
They can use the RBS and TEs to chip block. They can call quick screens that use the speed advantage against the DE. There are many other things you can do to gameplan a DE. If you can not block the NT or and interior DT, there is not much you can do other than get help from the G or C next to him, but even if they can get him blocked with a double team, his penetration and extra attention allows the DE to operate 1 on 1 vs a T he has a mismatch on.

Excellent Points!

Speaking of Kyle Boller, not that many on this forum will confuse me with a Kyle Boller fan. :p I said during minicamps that "given a fair quarterback competition Troy Smith will beat Boller like a drum", from what I saw in preseason I was wrong. I thought Boller looked like he had more promise than I've given him credit for. I was sad to see him go down.

Ryan's pedigree and skill set is marginally better than Flack's, plus the Falcons winning is always big news since they've sucked for most of their existence. All Flacco has to do is remain steady and the wins will stack up and even though Ryan may edge him out for the rookie QB awards, Ravens fans won't regret picking up the tall kid from Delaware...:thumbup:

My vote would be for Flacco but all you have to do is watch virtually any football show and if they aren't talking about Farve, Ryan would be somewhere in the mix. So I believe nationally Ryan would win the award hands down if it was between the two QBs. Chris Johnson will be in the mix.

I DVD'd the whole NFL draft and I usually rewatch it for kicks during the offseason, I seem to remember someone saying Ryan is the most polished but Flacco has the most upside of any quarterback in the draft. I can't remember who said it. Hopefully it's true.:thumbup:

Jeremiah W

11-14-2008, 11:20 AM

Excellent Points!

Speaking of Kyle Boller, not that many on this forum will confuse me with a Kyle Boller fan. :p I said during minicamps that "given a fair quarterback competition Troy Smith will beat Boller like a drum", from what I saw in preseason I was wrong. I thought Boller looked like he had more promise than I've given him credit for. I was sad to see him go down.

My vote would be for Flacco but all you have to do is watch virtually any football show and if they aren't talking about Farve, Ryan would be somewhere in the mix. So I believe nationally Ryan would win the award hands down if it was between the two QBs. Chris Johnson will be in the mix.

I DVD'd the whole NFL draft and I usually rewatch it for kicks during the offseason, I seem to remember someone saying Ryan is the most polished but Flacco has the most upside of any quarterback in the draft. I can't remember who said it. Hopefully it's true.:thumbup:

I was sad to see Boller get hurt as well, but so were the Steelers when Maddox went down. The Ravens have had some really bad luck with QBs, it was about time we got some good luck from yet another bad break and weird tonsil infection.

Looking at what Cam has doen with Joe makes me think he could also have done a lot more with Boller than Billick did. Not just Cam but the Qb and WR, OL and RB coaches all seem to be getting more out of the same guys.

Flacco still has a good chance to win ROY because he has a good chance to win the division and flex shcedule his way into the spotlight. The Falcons are also in good shape record wise, but I like TB or the Panthers to win the division and or wild card and maybe push Ryan aside for Joe.