I've Come to Terms with K. Boller

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

Kyle Boller is always going to be Kyle Boller...He'll have a couple of Boller moments:grbac: , and if they don't lose the game for us than I'll let Boller be Boller. He'll have his moments and all, he's a gamer and he's got guts! I like the kid :thumbup: and I can deal with his Boller moments if he keeps chuckin' the rock like he did against the Brownies! But I do think we have a better chance to go to the Superbowl this year with Steve McNair...I also have faith that Kyle can come in and do an admirable job if need be. He showed me sumpin' this past week :kewl: ..I can see how Steve has had a positive effect on Kyle, there was a subtle difference in the pocket:ww:

[Mista T]

:iagree: ; however:


I can see how Steve has had a positive effect on Kyle, there was a subtle difference in the pocket:ww:

I think the OL surrendering just 1/2 the sacks of the previous Ravens best may have a lot more to do with it.

[Jggjaron]

Once he starts getting more snaps in practise he won't have all of those problems that he has in a game.

[POPSinPA]

He is what he is.
He will learn much from McNair about leadership too, you could see that going on sunday between them.
One thing he will never be is boring.

[darb72]

That's true Pops.

Heck forget about Sundays, Boller provides fun through out the following week. I can promise you the two boards don't see nearly as much action if Boller doesn't play.

[skaybaltimore]

I can see how Steve has had a positive effect on Kyle, there was a subtle difference in the pocket
I might be mistaken, but it seemed to me that on the bomb to Williams, KB did a subtle, slight step up/forward in the pocket -- not necessarily as pronounced as McNair, but noticeable nonetheless -- that allowed him to execute better mechanics, and the results spoke -- quite nicely and loudly -- for themselves.

GO RAVENS!!!

[StingerNLG]

I might be mistaken, but it seemed to me that on the bomb to Williams, KB did a subtle, slight step up/forward in the pocket -- not necessarily as pronounced as McNair, but noticeable nonetheless -- that allowed him to execute better mechanics, and the results spoke -- quite nicely and loudly -- for themselves.

It might simply be the angle of the camera, but it looked a lot like a sidestep left, and then a step in throw.



I think the OL surrendering just 1/2 the sacks of the previous Ravens best may have a lot more to do with it.

I said it in another thread. I have maintained all this time that when the offensive line simply does it's job, our QB's play better. Not just Boller, but McNair too. When you can protect the QB and give him time to throw and read, they tend to do better.

For Boller though T, you have to admit that having McNair here has had an effect on him. Someone to finally get with him on the field and explain or show him how to make those little sidesteps. Do you really think he was going to get some of the nuances of the NFL from Redman and Wright?

[skaybaltimore]

It might simply be the angle of the camera, but it looked a lot like a sidestep left, and then a step in throw.
You might be right. Like I said, it was not a classic step up into the pocket, but it seemed, at the same time, to be more "calm" and mechanically sound that I've seen before with KB. He hasn't been playing enough this year to really see him "in action", but from what I saw, there did seem to be some improvement. Yet, at the same time, those pesky little "Bollerisms" persisted as well.

I obviously don't have a crystal ball, but I would bet that he ends up a slightly better than average overall QB -- maybe starting, maybe perennial backup -- with moments of brilliance, brought down by an inability to achieve consistency throughout 4 quarters of a game, week in, and week out. His basic "wiring" just seems to be set on "hyperdrive", and that eventually is going to result in too many misfires to ever allow him to be a "great" QB, IMO. But he got us a win against the Browns, and he deserves props for that. I doubt that if Wright were still here, he could have come off the bench and done as good a job.

GO RAVENS!!!

[StingerNLG]

Actually, it's very wierd depending on the camera angle. I'm watching the 30 minute replay I get from DirecTV. One looks like a sidestep, one looks like a forward step. Nick Eason comes around Heap and leapfrogs Mughelli on the way to Boller. The sideline camera makes it look like Boller takes a shuffle-step forward and launches the ball. When you look at the replay looking in from the defensive backfield, it looks like Boller slides to his left then throws the ball.

Either way, it's a departure from the "tuck and run" he would do at that point.

[skaybaltimore]

And that's really the bottom line -- that he did seem to show some improvement. The only real questions are: is it enough? At least for Sunday, it was enough. And with McNair back on Sunday, KB should be enough in his current role. Beyond that...honestly...I don't know if anybody really knows the answer to that question. One can only look at the past, compare it to the present, and try, within reason, to forumlate SOME sense of what the future might hold. I just hope that however it plays out, it works out OK for the Ravens and for KB. From what I saw on Sunday, I was satisfied that we didn't fight to keep Derek Anderson. But he seems to have found a spot in Cleveland -- at least for now -- so that is an example of things working out for both parties.

GO RAVENS!!!

[StingerNLG]

There is another aspect to think about. I've thought about McNair's influence. But also, I've listened to Trevor Pryce, Derrick Mason, D-Will, and a lot of quotes from teammates who according to locker room reporter types, have gained new confidence in him. He came in and won a game that clinched the playoffs for the Ravens. Maybe that throws something into that hyper noggin of his. It was an important game, and he stepped up. Maybe that means something.

Who knows. But I'll say this. I'm MUCH happier with McNair/Boller than I am with Boller/Wright. That's for damn sure.

[BlackSunday]

TRAP wrote(in part):

Hell, I even want them to start Boller Sunday to let the wound properly heal.

I'd be willing to listen to this argument, provided Kyle were playing at home. His home/away win % differential is extraordinary.

BS

[ClericBlackDave]

Kyle's problem has been on the road, but really thats a problem this entire team has had before mcnair's arrival.


However, its not clear that the entire offense on the road hasn't stepped up its play. It might be that Boller could come in and light up the steelers.


or, he could come in and throw 3 picks.


Its not really clear.


In any case, you start McNair if he is healthy. If he isn't, and that cut isn't healed, I woudl start Boller, give McNair a week to rest and heal, and give 2-3 quarters to McNair against the Bills, and the last quarter to Boller.


Keep McNair fresh, let that cut heal, and keep his arm live.

[skaybaltimore]

Word, CBD.

GO RAVENS!!!

[Bilbo]

Like most of you, the sight of Boller coming onto the filed leaves me with mixed feelings. He certainly looks more confident and throws a very nice ball. Other than the underthrown pass to Mason that was picked, I thought he threw the ball very well. He seems to still have some accuracy issues on short passes, but he looks pretty comfortable when given the time. The tripping and fumbling of snaps is what gives me the heebie jeebies. I always seem to hold my breath until he gets away from the center still standing. I heard Jason Brown saying Boller steps back with the side of his foot and is a little less stable because of it. Whatever it is, I'd like to see it fixed because it leads to these mixed feelings. I'm a Boller supporter, not a basher. I just hate to see those around me at the games scream for his head because he trips or fumbles on a consistent basis. I'm very comfortable with Boller backing up McNair and feel we are much improved with this set up. Unlike many others, however, I'd like to resign Boller after next year if he continues to improve his mechanics and footwork.

[skaybaltimore]

I think in the long run, he's going to have to fix his mechanics. But if, for some reason, we really need him to step in at some point this season, I propose he be allowed/forced to run the O out of the shotgun as much as possible, to try and reduce those absolutely infuriating gaffes.

GO RAVENS!!!

[ClericBlackDave]

Boller is much better out of shotgun than out of center, come to think of it.

[StingerNLG]

Well, because he doesn't have to drop back.

I think part of his problem is he still drops back too quickly. His mind is on the read before the ball hits his hands and he fumbles. Then he gets back like he's The Flash. A lot of that was due to poor pass protection.

I'm not suggesting we experiment on Sunday against Pittsburgh by letting him play just because. But because I have placed a lot of onus on past horrible protection, I'd like to see how different Boller plays even on the road with the rest of the team playing as it is.

It would definitely answer my final question about his ability to play the game. If he can't do it when the OL is solid consistently, and the receivers aren't dropping passes intheir hands, then that will tell a lot.

[highwater]

I agree with a lot of the above points about Boller, but there is something very simple that we often overlook -- for all the talk about McNair's influence, the shotgun, the coaching, the OL and everthing else, how about the fact that he's finally had enough experience to "get it?" Very few young QBs set the world on fire right away, and maybe Boller has now had enough game time experience to know what to do. It helps a lot that he has real receivers to throw to now, and the OL has been pass blocking better this season than they have in years, but the simple fact that he's seen enough by now to know what he's doing shoudn't be overlooked.

I hope the Ravens find a way to keep him around, because I still think he could become a very good QB in this league.

[ravenwoman]

I would like to see Boller get in some more work in the next two weeks, just as a precautionary measure, like in the 4th quarter with 10 minutes left in the game. You have to keep McNair as healthy as possible and limit his exposure to injury. After all, we are in the playoffs, no matter what. It really seems unlikely that we will get an additional bye week, unless a miracle happens and the Chargers or Colts lose.

Something to consider. . . .

[skaybaltimore]

Well, because he doesn't have to drop back.

I think part of his problem is he still drops back too quickly. His mind is on the read before the ball hits his hands and he fumbles. Then he gets back like he's The Flash. A lot of that was due to poor pass protection.

I'm not suggesting we experiment on Sunday against Pittsburgh by letting him play just because. But because I have placed a lot of onus on past horrible protection, I'd like to see how different Boller plays even on the road with the rest of the team playing as it is.

It would definitely answer my final question about his ability to play the game. If he can't do it when the OL is solid consistently, and the receivers aren't dropping passes intheir hands, then that will tell a lot.I agree 100% with that, stinger; especially if there's ANY QUESTION WHATSOEVER with regard to whether on not that cut on McNair's hand has totally healed. In that instance, I wouldn't hesitate to let Sunday be a "well, let's see what KB can do". It's really tailor-made for that -- it's going to be an intense game, against a team KB has already faced this year, in what promises to be a very loud, hostile environment, with little if any major consequences if we lose, and a lot to gain if he shows he can handle that sort of pressure.

GO RAVENS!!!

[StingerNLG]

I definitely agree with you skay. But I think the real question before they make that switch is how important do they value the game.

Whether I like Kyle Boller or not, I am never in favor of sitting our starter unless it is absolutely necessary. I'm, with you on McNair's hand. I would call the cut on his hand not being totally healed necessary though. But if the Ravens want to keep pursuing home field advantage, you have to start McNair.

If this game to them is not that consequential, then I say go ahead and let the kid play. The Ravens need to see if they want to keep him.

[skaybaltimore]

But I think the real question before they make that switch is how important do they value the game.

In my mind, SM's health is WAY more important than the outcome of the game. We need to look down the road a bit on this one, IMO.

(And btw --

I definitely agree with you skay.



I agree 100% with that, stinger;

OF COURSE YOU AGREE WITH ME ON THIS ONE...Because it started out with me agreeing with you!! So if you didn't agree with me, then that would mean you didn't agree with yourself. And that would be kinda difficult, DON'T YA THINK?)

:iagree:

GO RAVENS!!!

[StingerNLG]

Look man, I'm trying to pack up a whole house and move in two days. I'm tired, cut me some slack. :p


In my mind, SM's health is WAY more important than the outcome of the game. We need to look down the road a bit on this one, IMO.

I know. It's a compelling arguement. Maybe they could start Boller, then if things start to go downhill fast McNair could come in. I'm just not a big fan of sitting your starter. It's a tricky situation.

[crazyraven]

In my mind, SM's health is WAY more important than the outcome of the game. We need to look down the road a bit on this one, IMO.
At this point in the season I'd like to see SM playing as long as we have a chance at a bye week or the 3rd seed. If we are locked in at a 3 seed then Mcnair needs to be rested and Boller should play a half or even 3 quarters.

[RavensNTerps]

1. Kyle Boller, Steve McNair, Anthony Wright, Derek Anderson, Brian St. Pierre, Drew Olsen...it doesn't matter...we're a better team than the Steelers...by far.

2. IF McNair's hand isn't healed, let Boller play...but it will be healed, and McNair will start. And we will win 23-6 or thereabouts.

[purplepoe]

I value this game because I want the Steelers out of the playoff hunt.

The AFC playoff picture could swing dramatically after Sunday's games.

PP

[Filmstudy]

The O-Line has had a fine year in pass blocking, allowing the 2nd fewest sacks in the league, but it would be foolish to give all the credit to them. It's also a function of McNair. IMO, Boller 2003-05 playing every snap and the Ravens would have allowed 25-28 sacks, slightly better than the 32 league average.

[purplepoe]

The O-Line has had a fine year in pass blocking, allowing the 2nd fewest sacks in the league, but it would be foolish to give all the credit to them. It's also a function of McNair. IMO, Boller 2003-05 playing every snap and the Ravens would have allowed 25-28 sacks, slightly better than the 32 league average.

I agree.

Boller seems to have improved somewhat in his pocket presence but McNair's poise and presence is invaluable to this OL.

In fact, it was the biggest reason I wanted him over any of the available QBs. It was posted by myself and plenty of others that this OL would look better with McNair behind it.

Has the OL improved? Sure.

Has the playcalling lent itself to less sacks? Yup.

But this OL hasn't changed THAT dramatically to go from being as bad as it was to 2nd in sacks allowed.

People's biggest problem with the line was Flynn and him getting destroyed all the time. Well he's a year older this season and yet our sacks are way down. I believe the most improved guy is Pashos though. He's the unsung hero to me. Brown/Pashos/Chester (Im worried about Terry) are here for the long haul and that's a good thing.

Call it a combo of alot of things, but McNair is most definitely a main reason for the low sack number we've seen this season.

PP

[StingerNLG]

I value this game because I want the Steelers out of the playoff hunt.

The AFC playoff picture could swing dramatically after Sunday's games.

Is there a scenerio where a 9-7 Steelers makes it into the playoffs? I'd have to think a WHOLE LOT of stuff would have to happen for the Steelers to get in. I would think the Jets, Broncos, and the Jags would all have to lose the next 2 games, and Pittsburgh would have to beat us then go to Cincy and beat them. I just couldn't imagine it.



In fact, it was the biggest reason I wanted him over any of the available QBs. It was posted by myself and plenty of others that this OL would look better with McNair behind it.

Except a lot of the early games neither of them looked good. The OL has gotten better, and I don't mean this as a knock on Mulitalo at all, but the insertion of the young bucks I really think has had more to do with it than anything. Jason Brown has been really impressive, and I agree with you about Pashos really stepping up over the course of the season. These guys have been gelling through the season, and it's showing now.

But there is one guy we're forgetting that has really been solid in both run and pass protection; Ovie Mughelli. A lot of people were down on Ovie in the wake of losing Alan Ricard. But part of the issue was that Jim Fassel preferred to use an H Back instead of a straight 2 back set. So instead of having a fullback we had Dan Wilcox and Todd Heap playing that spot at times. It didn't work. When Billick took over, Ovie got the job, and I think he's done a solid job of picking up blitzes and helping protect McNair/Boller. And, he's another guy that can catch the ball out of the backfield, where Jamal really can't.



But this OL hasn't changed THAT dramatically to go from being as bad as it was to 2nd in sacks allowed.

But it sort of has. The majority of the time we've had two new guards on the line. Brown and Chester.

[Merlin]

After all we've been through with Boller the biggest mistake the front office could do is to let him go.

He won't be elite -- but I have a feeling that if someone will let him make the big play that some of those other issues -- tripping, not hanging in the pocket -- will become less -- and he could be a QB in the top half of the league.

Thank god for no Boller / Wright debates this year . . .

[purplepoe]

But it sort of has. The majority of the time we've had two new guards on the line. Brown and Chester.

IIRC has Chester started 3 games.

Vincent came back to start the KC and Cleveland games and has definitely played the majority of the snaps this season.

And to be honest, I think Brown is now a very big upgrade over Mule. I wasn't sold on Edwin at the beginning of the year. Kept hearing what great shape he was in etc..... but it was pretty much the same old Edwin. Slowfooted and often injured.

Either way, Im excited about a Brown/Chester combo. A few people have said to me they think Chester will become a center and we know Brown played center in college. I would hope we'd grab another young G this offseason and really solidify the middle of the OL for years to come.

PP

[StingerNLG]

IIRC has Chester started 3 games.

Vincent came back to start the KC and Cleveland games and has definitely played the majority of the snaps this season.

NFL's stat pages for linemen always confuse me. He did start 3 games. But they have him listed as playing in 9, and "Did Not Play" in 6. I have no idea what that means.



And to be honest, I think Brown is now a very big upgrade over Mule. I wasn't sold on Edwin at the beginning of the year. Kept hearing what great shape he was in etc..... but it was pretty much the same old Edwin. Slowfooted and often injured.

I agree. I think it was important to get Mule back into playing shape this year, but Brown has really done well next to Ogden. And maybe helping Flynn out too which could be why Flynn hasn't been blown up so much.

So the question becomes, what happens when Ed becomes healthy?

[highwater]

And to be honest, I think Brown is now a very big upgrade over Mule.

I totally agree -- Brown has played very well. I might not call him a very big upgrade, but the OL has actually pass-blocked better (IMHO) since Mule went out. There hasn't been a drop-off, that's for sure. The OL has been much better at pass protection than I expected at the start of the season.

And while I think that McNair is very good at avoiding a pass rush, to give him all the credit is a little silly. The pass protection has improved largely because of the blocking, and that might be due to a combination of factors, including coaching, but whatever the reasons, it's a welcome change.

[purplepoe]

NFL's stat pages for linemen always confuse me. He did start 3 games. But they have him listed as playing in 9, and "Did Not Play" in 6. I have no idea what that means.




I agree. I think it was important to get Mule back into playing shape this year, but Brown has really done well next to Ogden. And maybe helping Flynn out too which could be why Flynn hasn't been blown up so much.

So the question becomes, what happens when Ed becomes healthy?

Yea, they have "did not play" for Ogden for every game. I went to NFL.com.

I said it as soon as he got injured that we saw the last of Mule in a Ravens uniform. He's just too slow and never healthy to warrant keeping him IMO.

[/QUOTE]And while I think that McNair is very good at avoiding a pass rush, to give him all the credit is a little silly[/QUOTE]

Im certainly not giving him all the credit. I don't think anyone really was.

PP

[PurpleRulz]

As far as "coming to terms with Boller" is concerned, the ONLY way I could see Boller having a second chance as a starter here is after a lot of the current vets depart. While players such as Clayton, Suggs, Bart, DWill, Terry, Pashos, Landry, etc., will be able to grow with Boller and tolerate him, guys like Ray, Reed, Mason (and don't buy the company line he touts on his show. He is not feeling Boller), and CMac will continue to view Boller with skeptical eyes.

[StingerNLG]

Mason (and don't buy the company line he touts on his show. He is not feeling Boller),

Sigh........

So he told you this personally, did he? Because I remember last year him telling a radio personality off the record (one who does not like Boller BTW), that he still had confidence in him.

So what did he tell you that was different?