The debate has just begun: arm strength [Archive] - Baltimore Ravens Forums and Message Boards

F Angelos

08-25-2006, 10:34 PM

Has McNair thrown a completion over 15 yards? Did the Ravens put him through any drills before committing to $33 million? Is this all a ploy to fool preseason opponents' scouting? Have we ever started a weaker armed QB since Harbs? Inquiring minds would like to know.:laugh: And can we save all the "preseason", "OL", and "getting to learn the offense" excuses.:grbac:

I know, I know: some NFL teams have done very well just throwing the short stuff. But this team is from Baltimore.

:mrt:
I've seen McNair in practice throw 50 yds right on target more than a few times. He's got the arm strength to do it. Why there not letting him do it is beyond me.

edreedisgod20

08-26-2006, 12:45 AM

It's an interesting question. First, let me start off by saying that the wonderful folks at MASN did not allow me to watch the Vikings game. That said, some stats that have slipped by:

Unless I'm mistaken, McNair is 31/40 for 273 yards in two halves + one drive of play. I know, those have all been dump off passes, right? But McNair's YPA is a very respectable 6.825. So because he's completing so many, it doesn't really matter that he hasn't gone down the field.

My conclusion, which you certainly don't have to agree with: We're seeing the ball-control offense run to perfection (well, without the touchdowns). We can run (or short pass) on first and second down to make third-and-short... and then actually convert consistently! It isn't exciting, it isn't prolific, but it can be an extremely effective offense. We have all the components for it - a stable of power backs, a smart, efficient quarterback, an offensive line that can't block for more than two seconds anyway, and a punishing defense that hasn't seen a pair of fresh legs in the fourth quarter this decade. It's hard to be excited about this team after what sounded like a typical road game tonight, but thinking back to last week's game against the Eagles still gets me really, really pumped.

crowdog89

08-26-2006, 12:50 AM

Have we ever started a weaker armed QB since Harbs? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Uh...besides Harbaugh? Maybe Chris Redman....:nerd:

Mista T

08-26-2006, 01:01 AM

Maybe Chris Redman....

Don't think so. Redmond couldn't gun the ball, but he could at least loft it 40-50 yards downfield. The only longish pass that I've seen thrown by Steve so far was about 30 yards downfield, lofted, and 5 yards off the mark.:hammer:

Seriously, Crowdog, I am suspecting that we may have a problem here. That is: unless Fassel is intentionally hiding the long passing threat.

:mrt:

crowdog89

08-26-2006, 01:07 AM

Like I said, everyone was jumping for joy about getting McNair....so far even though I haven't seen a game...just what I've read on the boards and seen in clips....doesn't give me much hope beyond that 8-8 we were talking about...and that's only if the Ravens win all 8 home games. It doesn't look like they have the road warrior mentality...even for the preseason.

I'm hoping they are playing bluff like in poker...if not it seems like this team is in some huge trouble. Not only is the offense the same as it ever was, but it seems like the defense is lettting up some big plays as well....and not stopping the opponet on 3rd down either.

Drkraven

08-26-2006, 01:09 AM

Uh Kyle Boller is God?*duck*
I truly don't know what to think. Boller is poised in the pocket, making reads and looking like a big boy QB, BUT he is playing against the second string D. Boller looks like a real QB, I started thinking that after the Vikes game last year, then we played the Browns. Maybe that flight yesterday still had everyone rattled. I'm not sure why I TIVOed that game because I'm quite sure no one wants to see it, including me.

JonG316

08-26-2006, 01:10 AM

I've thought his arm strength was lacking since the first day of training camp, I even commented about it to someone. However if you watch the pass he threw to Clayton that drew the pass interference penelty he has a lot of zip on that ball, easily the most powerful ball I've seen him throw since coming here.

I'm much more worried about the Oline after this game more then McNair. McNair isn't going to be able to do much of anything if the line plays like that.

crowdog89

08-26-2006, 01:41 AM

I'm much more worried about the Oline after this game more then McNair. McNair isn't going to be able to do much of anything if the line plays like that.

Some of us have been complaining about our sucky O line for years....including the super bowl year. Whenever the qb debates start, regardless of who the qb is...and the list is long over the past 10 years....but especially over the past 8 years...Harbaugh, Case, Banks, Dilfer, Grbac etc...the argument always comes to..."well, if _____ (fill in blank with QB's name) had a decent O line...." yada, yada, yada....

The problem is the Ravens rarely do anything to truely upgrade the O line. They get at best 2nd round choices such as Terry, who still need a season or two on the bench usually, before they even see any playing time. Not only that but they bring in guys (like Chester) who have either little experience, and/or need to "Bulk up" in the weight room first.

They had better start putting some priority into the O line thru the draft and top line FA over the next couple of years or the team will be in worse shape than they are now(if that's possible):eyes: ...especially after Ogden retires.

Smackums

08-26-2006, 01:53 AM

First let me preface my comment by saying that I didn't see the game either. I'll see it when it's replayed on the NFL network at 10am.

The fact that he's completed 31 of 40 passes for an average of 6.8 with one INT means to me that he's making good decisions. If that decision is a dump off and the backs and receivers are getting YAC yards then so be it. Going into tonight the league average per attempt is 6.1 so I won't complain about his 6.8. Like ERIG said, I would love to see more TD's, but I will gladly take 31 completions between interceptions, a 6.8 average and a completion percentage of 77% with our running game and defense.

It also seems like this team missed Jamal Lewis. Again, I didn't see the game, but the 18 yards you got from Musa and Anderson on 11 carries hardly seems sufficient. This game was 10-0 when McNair left, hardly an insurmountable lead. I'm not going to make excuses after a game I didn't see, but if the Ravens are catching 77% of the passes he throws, above the league average in YPA, and only one of his 40 attempts have been picked off then I won't complain about arm strength.

RavenTD

08-26-2006, 05:11 AM

McNair is still learning the terminology.Getting all the kinks out,hence those two first half time outs.He's still finding out the horror that is our offensive line pass protection.

I have every faith in McNair getting it done with a good O'line infront of him.
But like we all have said countless times before.Can he get it done with the Ravens O'line infront of him?

StingerNLG

08-26-2006, 07:38 AM

The fact that he's completed 31 of 40 passes for an average of 6.8 with one INT means to me that he's making good decisions. If that decision is a dump off and the backs and receivers are getting YAC yards then so be it. Going into tonight the league average per attempt is 6.1 so I won't complain about his 6.8. Like ERIG said, I would love to see more TD's, but I will gladly take 31 completions between interceptions, a 6.8 average and a completion percentage of 77% with our running game and defense.

Here's my problem. Two games now in which that style of offense failed to score points. And like the Indy game last year, Stover missed a field goal and we went into halftime with ZERO POINTS.

Thoughout the last couple of years as the "Boller wars" raged over on YBR (Note: Which BTW you should see this morning. It's an unbelievable sight.), I heard the same things over and over:

1) A better QB makes the team around him better.

2) A better QB will be able to overcome the offensive line problems.

3) No one can stack 8 in the box against us anymore.

4) The QB was the primary problem with the team.

5) STATS DON'T MATTER

Anyone watching the game last night, and really in some form the Eagles game has to be highly concerned because the offense looked identical to last year last night, and in two game we've scored 3 points by halftime. A ball control offense is great, but you need to score points first. The Steelers were considered a ball control offense, but they usually got a lead first before running 11 run plays in a row.

And I'm simply using this as a stat, not at all to validate Kyle Boller or anything like that, but in 2004 he went some 100+ passes without an interception. And he did it with dump off passes and short stuff. And the fans dumped on him for it. Now McNair is doing exactly the same thing and we're praising him for it because now we have the receivers that can get YAC.

Last night I saw 8 in the box regularly. As if the Vikings scouted the Philly game and saw the ducks that McNair lofted up if he had to go medium to deep. So they shut down the run and kept their cover 2 somewhat tight. They effectively kept the receivers from breaking big gains and challenged the offense to throw downfield, and it never really happened. Now this doesn't concern anyone?

The offensive line sucks. While people were talking about the QB, and attacking and namecalling, I've been talking about the offensive line. Last night was a clear indication to me that while I LOVE Steve McNair's accomplishments, his talent, his desire, and his knowledge of the game, it isn't going to make a bit of difference so long as he can't get the protection he needs to throw downfield, or simply not get jacked up and put on the ground.

I don't know about you guys, but I went from excited to concerned in a short 2 game span. And it sucks that the only video clip I can make from last night's game are the two GREAT catches by Clarence Moore, and the TD by Boller.

RavenMad2099

08-26-2006, 08:39 AM

Have we ever started a weaker armed QB since Harbs? Inquiring minds would like to know.:laugh:
Gee, T...you sound happy about it...positively giddy, in fact. :thumbdown:

At the time, I was furious that Ozzie sat around waiting for McNair while opportunities to obtain other quality QBs passed us by. That being said, the roster is what it is. I would rather have an allegedly weak-armed McNair than the catastrophe waiting on the bench.

This is also preseason. That doesn't mean we should ignore everything we see on the field (the coaches sure don't), but I'm not going to panic or make blanket judgements yet, either. The tape on our starting QB from last year shows that he's the best we've had in many a long year. The overall impression I have from watching in a Ravens uniform so far shows that he is also a good decision maker; he doesn't make many boneheaded mistakes <ahem>.

I think I'll just wait until we start gameplanning for opponents in games that actually count for something before drawing final conclusions. If McNair can't top a 71.8 rating, convert 3rd downs, and move our offense down the field more consistently, I'll gladly join the new Hater club you're attempting to establish.

Mista T

08-26-2006, 08:57 AM

Gee, T...you sound happy about it...positively giddy, in fact.

.......I'll gladly join the new Hater club you're attempting to establish.

This is the exact same problem that we had at YBR. I start a debate thread about McNair's arm strength, and the personal attacks begin. It's a discussion board ... we have different opinions.

I'm concerned about McNair's arm strength, just like I was concerned about Boller's being handed the job w/o competition, Blake's attitude, the Water Buffalo's immobility, Testaverde's ill-timed turnovers. How is that "giddiness", or "hate"? The only "giddiness" I would have for the Ravens would be a playoff run, and I reserve the "hate" for yellow piss rags waved in my face at the stadium.

If you have a rebuttal about his apparent arm strength problems, spit it out. And who said anything about "final conclusions"? Yikes - it's just the 3rd game of the preseason. If he's resting the arm for the stretch run in December, I'm OK by that. We cannot make "final conclusions" until the season is over.

How about we just all stick to the script here on the new board and debate the opinions expressed, not going after the person who expressed them.

:mrt:

crazyraven

08-26-2006, 09:13 AM

I'm disappointed as most of you are but lets be honest The first half was a defensive battle. For both sides. its a mistake to let a few preseason games to dictate the caliber of mcnair considering his history. That int had nothing to do with the O-line or arm strenght. I'll judge him and the rest of the team when it counts in the regular season.

Raveninwoodlawn

08-26-2006, 09:42 AM

It's hard for me to beleive that McNair, who had an absolute gun coming out of college, has turned into Steve Walsh/Ken Dorsey over the course of 11 seasons.

It's logical that your arm will get weaker with age...but not to that level. And I don't think he has had any arm injuries that would affect his arm strength.

I'm not jumping off a bridge yet and I have seen a lot to like from McNair, but I think even the biggest "McNair is our savior" guys had to be watching this and pleading for a shot downfield.

I mean, just watching the WR's routes, we have Mason and Clayton running these 5 yard routes...do we even ask them to run deep routes?

lance1086

08-26-2006, 09:50 AM

McNair threw a 20 Yard pass last night, with very quality arm-strength. It was incomplete, but it was a good, hard throw that he zipped in there. Even though it was incomplete, I was happy to see the throw. Also, in practice, as someone else referred to, he's thrown multiple 40+ yard passes that were right on the money.

He cant throw 60 yard bombs, but his arm-strength is plenty good to get it downfield. Why hasn't he been doing it very often at all in games? You got me. Could be coaching, the plays, us just being vanilla as to not give anything away, etc.

RavenMad2099

08-26-2006, 09:56 AM

This is the exact same problem that we had at YBR. I start a debate thread about McNair's arm strength, and the personal attacks begin. It's a discussion board ... we have different opinions.
What personal attack?
Please show me where I insulted you personally.
I'd bet the house that if I had "attacked" someone who disagreed with you, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

You've been complaining about McNair for one reason or another before he even arrived. Your "cap busting salary" claim never worked out, so then you started writing post after post bashing him for his arm strength (and it isn't as if we haven't had this discussion in multiple other threads before).

You were gloating about McNair's "weak arm." That was pretty clear.
You're concerned about it...fine. You don't think he's very good...fine. You called people out and laughed about it. Excuse me for saying so, but that's borderline trollish.

It's a shame to start this new board to get away from stuff like the Boller Wars, only to have a mod write the same kinds of posts about McNair that people like WSO and Oldfan wrote about Boller. Then you have the nerve to be offended when someone calls you on it?

I expect better...or do the rules apply to everyone except you and the people you agree with?

Mobtown

08-26-2006, 10:27 AM

Sorry folks, but the sky is NOT falling. Mac had a rough night to be sure, but there are a few points that I will throw out in his defense.

1. The Vikings run the same defense as Tampa Bay. It has been clearly stated that last night's offense would be and should be "vanilla". THat means the plays were scripted and every effort would be made not to give TB a clue as to what we are capable of.

2. The OL had a very difficult time dealing with the multiple blitz packages that Min was using. Mac did a very nice job (IMO) to avoid more than the two sacks. This is not good news for the season and shows that OL is still a MAJOR issue against faster, blitz heavy defenses. Oh yeah, is Tony Pashos a complete waste of flesh or what? That guy was getting absolutely OWND on the right side of the line. We still have MAJOR work to be done in this area.

3. Our receiving corp looked like crap last night. Maybe Min's secondary was playing great, maybe our receivers were not finding a way to get open. Either way, there was a Min DB within 5 yrds of every receiver all through the first half and Mac had very little to throw to.

4. The interception was Clayton's fault, not Mac's. Clayton was supposed to go 5 yrds and sit down. Instead he tried to drift to the outside just as the ball was being released which put him out of position to make a play on the ball.

5. Penalties. Mental mistakes are going to kill us again this year if we can't find a way to stop the pre-snap penalties. Twice we were in the Red Zone and got false start penalties that put us back into field goal range.

You guys can bash Mac all you want, but we got beaten by a very good Viking defense last night and that is simply not the fault of ONE guy. I know some of you wnat to see deep threat football, but you might as well get used to the 5-20 yrd pass because it will be our bread and butter all season long. We are not, nor should we be IMO, a deep threat team. We simply do not have the speed on the outside, or arm strength on the inside to run that type of O. Mason and Clayton are both YAC receivers and quick, short passes play to their strengths.

In a way, I am glad that we got spanked last night. I got the feeling that the O felt like Mac was some God who would be able to cary them all on his shoulders to the SB. He is not, and he never was. The entire O will need to step up if we are going to be successful this year, not just Mac. Finally, I hope this embarassing loss provides some much needed motivation for our team going into the start of the season.

StingerNLG

08-26-2006, 10:28 AM

He cant throw 60 yard bombs, but his arm-strength is plenty good to get it downfield. Why hasn't he been doing it very often at all in games? You got me. Could be coaching, the plays, us just being vanilla as to not give anything away, etc.

One good hard pass though in a couple of games still can be concerning. What I guess alarms me, and I hope you're right that it's just pre-season and Fassell isn't giving anything away, is that the 1st team offense made no attempt to keep the defense honest by at least taking a shot downfield.

You guys can bash Mac all you want, but we got beaten by a very good Viking defense last night and that is simply not the fault of ONE guy. I know some of you wnat to see deep threat football, but you might as well get used to the 5-20 yrd pass because it will be our bread and butter all season long. We are not, nor should we be IMO, a deep threat team. We simply do not have the speed on the outside, or arm strength on the inside to run that type of O. Mason and Clayton are both YAC receivers and quick, short passes play to their strengths.

Ok, but the Vikings effectively shut that down last night. And Tampa runs the same type of defense that the Vikings do, so that means Fassell better start figuring something out, because if we try this run-on-first-down stuff again and get stuffed like last night, Tampa bay will be a long day.

I don't think anyone is putting the loss wholly on McNair. The offensive line failed, once again. But the talk all though the offseason was that McNair would compensate for the offensive line problems and score points. It's not happening yet. I'm hoping like most people that the offense will just snap their fingers and play for real in 2 weeks.

Mobtown

08-26-2006, 10:38 AM

Ok, but the Vikings effectively shut that down last night. And Tampa runs the same type of defense that the Vikings do, so that means Fassell better start figuring something out, because if we try this run-on-first-down stuff again and get stuffed like last night, Tampa bay will be a long day.

Read Point #1 in my earlier post. Fassel was running a crap O on purpose. Why would we show our hand two weeks before it matters?

I don't think anyone is putting the loss wholly on McNair. The offensive line failed, once again. But the talk all though the offseason was that McNair would compensate for the offensive line problems and score points. It's not happening yet. I'm hoping like most people that the offense will just snap their fingers and play for real in 2 weeks.

Well some are since they have pointed their fingers at Mac without mentioning any of the other factors in last night's loss. Anyone who said or thought that Mac would (as a singularity) be able to elevate the play of the O is only looking at half the picture. Mac can lead the horses to water, the rest of the O still has to bend down and take a drink.

StingerNLG

08-26-2006, 10:53 AM

Read Point #1 in my earlier post. Fassel was running a crap O on purpose. Why would we show our hand two weeks before it matters?

Because you still have to get into a rhythm. Minnesota had no qualms about going downfield on us and scoring points. If we're tied 10-10 at halftime running a vanilla offense and we lose, then I'm with you. But scoring 3 points in 2 games? I can't buy into that just yet.

I just don't think that we would be giving away our playbook if McNair threw a sideline streak pass once in the last 2 games, that's all.

Well some are since they have pointed their fingers at Mac without mentioning any of the other factors in last night's loss. Anyone who said or thought that Mac would (as a singularity) be able to elevate the play of the O is only looking at half the picture. Mac can lead the horses to water, the rest of the O still has to bend down and take a drink.

Absolutely. There's a whole lot of hypocrisy going around the last 24 hours. Greg nailed it in the thread he just created. Anyone who doesn't understand that the offensive line is the primary issue just wanted McNair because his name wasn't Boller. But last night was proof that without an OL, it doesn't matter who the QB is. Part of my original post was pointing out again what Greg said; all the things that weren't excuses to Boller are now instant excuses for McNair's inability to score points. And it is an expected thing, no doubt.

But for some of us what the problem is, and was, still happen to be the same thing even with a new Quarterback.

Mobtown

08-26-2006, 10:58 AM

Because you still have to get into a rhythm. Minnesota had no qualms about going downfield on us and scoring points.

Min isn't playing a clone of our D in two weeks. They could afford to let it hang out more than we can.

I just don't think that we would be giving away our playbook if McNair threw a sideline streak pass once in the last 2 games, that's all.

I agree, but as I said earlier...our first half was scripted. Also notice that we had no success running the ball either. NONE. The Vikings D was just on fire last night and we were not (rightly IMO) willing to pull out the big guns to try and stop them.

Greg

08-26-2006, 11:01 AM

I doubt Fassel was running a "crap" offense on purpose. I don't think he instructed the OL to fail to block well. And if Clayton had "sat down" on that route Smoot would have still been all over him. Throwing that pass was a terrible decision. The DB was all over the Clayton, even more so if he sits down on the route. That ball should not have been thrown.

Again, when bad things happen with McNair the fingers point all over the place, when Boller does it is all his fault. On top of that, many guys are discounting Boller's play the last few games any way they can, including saying that he made a bunch of mistakes despite no picks and very nice statistics.

Raveninwoodlawn

08-26-2006, 12:43 PM

If anything, that gave Tampa a blueprint...just overload the middle and continue with 8 in the box.

Our OL was embarassed...and lost almost every single one-on-one battle. Now Minny does have a DL with a lot of talent...3 1st round picks with perhaps their best run stopper undrafted...but we will be seeing the same when we play Tampa. And Tampa has a vastly superior defense IMHO.

I just lost a ton of optimism watching them last night as I saw what I have been seeing for the past 4 or 5 years...and add to the fact that they just seem to fall apart on the road adds up to some serious doubt.

What are they going to do In Tampa in the heat against that outstanding defensive line? Or In KC which has a historically terrific home field advantage? Or Denver? Or New Orleans with thier pass rushing ends? Or even Tennessee with what happened last year?

They can turn it around, but they need to show something and stop it with teh "blind leap of faith" that everything is going to be ok.

BirdFan

08-26-2006, 12:51 PM

Again, when bad things happen with McNair the fingers point all over the place, when Boller does it is all his fault. On top of that, many guys are discounting Boller's play the last few games any way they can, including saying that he made a bunch of mistakes despite no picks and very nice statistics.

I have to agree with Greg on this. It's what ticked me off so badly during the Boller wars. Every offensive bumble is Boller's fault, but none of them are McNair's. :grbac:

I think the TRUTH lies somewhere in between. All QBs make mistakes; shit happens. The real problem is that the offense sucks as a whole. Until the underlying problems are fixed, it doesn't matter who's under center. In fact, it's amazing how Boller-like McNair has looked the last two weeks. I don't think McNair's skills have deteriorated that much. I think our offense produces "Bollers".

skimmy

08-26-2006, 01:10 PM

I've mentioned in the past the about McNair underthrowing deep passes even when he was a Titan... it's not like he just lost his arm this year. It isn't a huge deal though, because when their offense changed under Heimerdinger (sp?) to throwing more downfield he was still successful in that system. From what I remember of McNair he lived in the short and intermediate area even very early in his career and was successful then as well.

I think that Fassel and the offensive coaches have put the cuffs on the offense making sure the QB gets rid of the ball quickly and on time instead of going downfield all the time. I actually thought this was a smart thing to do in order to protect our suspect offensive line. I personally can't see McNair coming out of the opening game healthy if all he does is 7 step drops all day against Tampa and Simeon Rice.

I'll agree that McNair doesn't have all that much arm strength but I really don't think he ever did. Also we've had QB's that could get the ball downfield (Banks, Blake, Boller, etc.) and that didn't work out all that well for us either. Now we have a QB that can put the ball in the right spot for yac on short passes and isn't afraid to throw the ball to the intermediate routes. I think we'll finally see the ball go more downfield after the Ravens have established the running game and use the play-action pass to their advantage. I just don't think the Ravens are going to get all tricky and try to play this card yet. All you had to was look at Brad Johnson last night for an example of a QB with a suspect arm that has been successful even into his late 30s.

We have to look at the Ravens as a team that is going to methodically drive the ball down the field in order to score. They'll have to stop the penalties and mental mistakes in order to sustain drives like that. We got spanked last night, but still did pretty well in time of possesion which if it carries forward to the regular season should lend itself well to keeping our defense fresher.

Drkraven

08-26-2006, 03:27 PM

The fact that the entire team was off last night,even though the D pulled their crap together by the second quarter, leads me to believe that the flight may have shook them up pretty bad. Not making excuses, but I don't think McNair ever played good in preseason and he was trying to make things happen. Last night was also JO's first game back and maybe that created some kind of glitch in chemistry. That game was just painful to watch and I hope it served as a wakeup call.

RavenFanatic2k6

08-26-2006, 03:39 PM

I'm going to ask again, how do you know that McNair can't throw deep when he hasn't had the opp. If the OL can't block for more than 1.5 seconds, and Udeze was frequently in the backfield before that last night, you simply can't throw deep. It can't be done, period. The plays can't develop.

I also doubt you'll see the same bland offense come Week 1. With Tampa running the same defense and having scouts there, I'm sure Billick and Fassel didn't want to show off much. No, they obviously didn't tell the OL to suck, but they didn't do much with the playcalling to help them out. It was straight up drop back passes. If we get blitzed or pressured as much in Week 1, Fassel will (hopefully) call roll outs, screen passes, etc, to slow the D's rush down a bit.

BirdFan

08-26-2006, 03:46 PM

I'm going to ask again, how do you know that McNair can't throw deep when he hasn't had the opp.

Actually, we've seen him try it twice...once in the scrimmage against the ***skins and once in the 1st preseason game. Both attempts were butt ugly.

RavenFanatic2k6

08-26-2006, 03:53 PM

Actually, we've seen him try it twice...once in the scrimmage against the ***skins and once in the 1st preseason game. Both attempts were butt ugly.

I know, I saw those two, but I figure most would agree with me when I say that two throws are most definitely not enough attempts to come to the conclusion that he can't throw deep!

BirdFan

08-26-2006, 03:57 PM

Disagree...those two were enough that the coaches took deep throws out of the playbook. We haven't even seen an attempt since then.

Art-Florida

08-26-2006, 05:30 PM

How about we just all stick to the script here on the new board and debate the opinions expressed, not going after the person who expressed them.

:mrt:

Can I get an 'amen' ? I have said this before here and it bears repeating...

Avoid the use of the second-person singular, and the civility quotient will stay high.

StingerNLG

08-26-2006, 09:51 PM

The ignore list works well too. :)

BTW, something that should motivate everyone to keep it civil. Look over at our former board and see the absolute cluster-fuck that it has become in the last 24-36 hours. It's an absolute embarassment to watch so-called Ravens fans tear into each other like they are.

I just know I'm glad I'm here.

Drkraven

08-26-2006, 10:18 PM

Heap86

08-26-2006, 10:45 PM

This team will run a ball controlled Offense, why does McNair need to be throwing 40 or 50 yard bombs. McNair does not have Boller's arm. Do you guys forget who won us the Superbowl? Dilfer had no arm strength. We will run a similar Offense centered around our running game. McNair has been throwing some accurate deep passes in practice and in camp, he hit Mason in mini-camps for a TD torching C-Mac a few months ago. He did'nt lose substancial arm strength overnight.

StingerNLG

08-26-2006, 11:10 PM

This team will run a ball controlled Offense, why does McNair need to be throwing 40 or 50 yard bombs.

Because ball control by itself doesn't translate into wins. Again I'd like to point out that our 1st team offense scored 3 points in the last 2 games. 3 points with drives that stalled.

And as Minnesota did, and the Bucs will do, they'll put 8 in the box and plug up the short routes so that Mason and Clayton can't get their YAC. Just like they couldn't get any YAC Friday night. And unless that changes, defenses will play us like they did last year.

I said in the offseason teams will gameplan to attack this offensive line because they know it's not that good. The Vikings did it. And everyone who looks at gamefilm will see it.

Heap86

08-26-2006, 11:36 PM

And as Minnesota did, and the Bucs will do, they'll put 8 in the box and plug up the short routes so that Mason and Clayton can't get their YAC. Just like they couldn't get any YAC Friday night. And unless that changes, defenses will play us like they did last year.

You are putting way too much stock into the preseason. They ran a Extremely Vanilla Offense for a reason Friday Night. Why throw everything but the kitchen sink at the Vikings in a meaningless game, that would just give Monte Kiffin a greater advantage for a Defensive Gameplan against us.

StingerNLG

08-27-2006, 08:08 AM

I put too much stock in watching our offensive line get once again pushed around by the 21st ranked defense in the league. I'm putting stock in Monte Kiffen gameplanning to attack the right side of our offensive line and bottling up the run. With 7 years of offensive line problems, I'm not discounting what I'm seeing in pre-season either.

FellsPointRaven

08-28-2006, 10:29 AM

I put too much stock in watching our offensive line get once again pushed around by the 21st ranked defense in the league.

I don't think that defense is going to be ranked 21st again this year. The Vikes have the potential to be pretty good this year.

Having said that, it doesn't excuse the piss-poor play of the O-line, who mailed it in on Friday night. Deep balls aren't going to happen when McNair has a blitzing lineman in his face before he can set his feet.

While Fassel wants to keep things relatively vanilla and not give the Bucs too much inclination as to our gameplan, the pre-season still exists to get players in game shape and allow teams to practice execution. I would therefore expect to see more than ONE attempt at a deep ball from McNair so far. The current play calling would suggest the coaching staff's belief that increased efficiency is all we need. The fact that the Vikings cottoned on to this line of thought early, shut us down and we had no plan B HAS to be a concern, coupled with the two deep balls that have fluttered on McNair in this pre-season. If nothing else, a nice 40 yard completion down the sideline to Mason this week might at least keep the Bucs from stacking the box from the get-go on Sep 10.

Heap86

08-31-2006, 10:29 PM

I think tonights game proved that McNair still has good arm strength and can throw the ball deep. Case Closed!!

BirdFan

09-04-2006, 03:37 PM

I think tonights game proved that McNair still has good arm strength and can throw the ball deep.

YAC. The pass was only about 15 yards. It worked, though, so I'm not unhappy. In fact, I'm delighted to see some YAC.

lance1086

09-09-2006, 03:44 PM

YAC. The pass was only about 15 yards.
??? :insane: Not sure why it's worth discussing now, but Devard got only about 5 yards after the catch (not sure where you're getting 20 from).

I wouldn't call the pass a bomb, but it was still a very solid 30+ yard throw. And the pass to Clayton was a 20yd laser in the air, as he caught it about 5 into the EZ (and obviously there weren't any YAC on that play).

I wouldn't credit, the "big" gains on that drive to YAC.

StingerNLG

09-09-2006, 11:13 PM

Amazing how many pot shots people STILL take on Boller and he's not even the starter. Amazing.

crazyraven

09-10-2006, 10:42 AM

Amazing how many pot shots people STILL take on Boller and he's not even the starter. Amazing
So what stinger. It really shouldn't bother you. Even Todd heap said that Mcnair throws a "catch able ball". I also heard a sound byte on Sirius from billick this morning saying that the ravens finally have a real QB since he has been the coach of the ravens. You might think its a pot shot but its just an honest observation.

StingerNLG

09-10-2006, 08:40 PM

Don't bother me at all. Just a shame that obsession still exists.

Mista T

09-14-2006, 12:54 PM

A couple mid-range passes against Landover: one was sharp for a TD, the other was underthrown. Nothing in the Tampa game changes the debate. Not debating about McNair's accuracy thowing those safe little passes to get a 100 QB rating, but rather his ability to air it out. It still hasn't happened, and assumedly opponents scouts notice as well.

Unless I blinked at Tampa and missed something!

Heap86

09-14-2006, 11:25 PM

A couple mid-range passes against Landover: one was sharp for a TD, the other was underthrown

What pass was underthrown, the 35 yard pass to DVD?

Not sure what game you were watching, but that pass was not underthrown.

If Boller had ever shown the ability to make a play action fake and hit a receiver in stride like McNair did on that play I would have been jumping up and down for joy. Unfortunately, I don't think they would even trust him enough to call a play like that deep in our territory. They probably call a handoff to Jamal and punt.

I have come to the conclusion that alot of our fans are so used to complaining about our past QB's that no matter how well they play and how many wins they get, they will still be looking for aspects of thier game to complain about.

Steve McNair did not look perfect, and did not complete every pass in stride, he also led a few 3 and Outs on Offense, and has not yet attempted a pass over 50 yards. Let me know if I missed anything

GreenWave52

09-15-2006, 09:21 AM

The reality of it is that it has taken Steven McNair one frigging game to accomplish what Boller has yet to do in his entire Ravens career, which is what I stated above. Who cares about arm strength as long as it is adequate and the QB is accurate?
RACK BertJones!

markdeerhunter

09-15-2006, 02:58 PM

I believe Mcnair has the arm strength for long passes but is playing a conservative gameplan as he picks up the system.Don't forget he wasn't signed until after all the mini camps were over.Fassel is calling the plays and as soon as he is comfortable enough Mcnair will air it out some. Also remember Joe Montana made a living on short and intemediate routes.

highwater

09-17-2006, 05:45 PM

Boller will be better off not remaining a Raven. He might catch on as a backup for some other team and have a Gus Frerotte type career. I think that is about all his "potential" upside indicates his future to be.

Wow, talk about an obsession -- Boller hasn't thrown a pass this season, and good ol' Tex still wants to talk about him.

Getting back to our starting QB, I'm a little puzzled at some of McNair's long passes. He almost seems as if he's coming off an injury or a period of inactivity, because he looks a little rusty. Which doesn't make much sense, adimttedly, but that's how he looks on his long passes.

But I really like his ability to evade a pass rush, which sadly is a requirement for whover our QB is. He did a nice job escaping pass rushers a few times today. He has a nice sense of where the rush is coming from, and can get away if given a chance. On a few occasions today he didn't even have a chance, but that wasn't his fault.

StingerNLG

09-17-2006, 08:32 PM

darb72

09-17-2006, 09:07 PM

I'm telling you HW, Oldfan has a new name. You can pick up on every trait. Johnny Unitas avatar, obsession with Boller, calling the guy names, and not being able to come into the main forums and talk about anything else. Even hijacking other threads into trying to talk about Boller (Rex Grossman thread). Wouldn't even bother with him.

There is an ignore feature on this forum that I have taken full advantage of. Click on User CP at the top left hand corner and go down to the buddy/ignore list. Fill in the blanks.

I can't remember if I've got six or seven people on my ignore list. Heck, four of 'em were on there before their first post.:thumbup: