The Suggs penalty

[psuasskicker]

So there was a false start on the Titans and a personal foul on us. I swear that last week there was a very similar situation...something like illegal motion or substitution or something like that, with a personal foul on the play by the defense (don't know that it was our game). In that game, the ref called the penalties off-setting.

I remember this really specifically because I was surprised that they called it like that. Does anyone else remember this?

- C -

[Gabrosin]

Maybe that only applies when it's a real penalty, not some figment of the referee's imagination.

[Jeremiah W]

This was a killer ghost call for malice in the heart. He did not even appear to hit the helmet. Game over if we do not get that call.

[UKRavenStockers]

Surely a false start is pre-snap anyway and thus the play should've been whistled dead and "no play occurred". Seems off to me.

[RavensInBrazil]

That was a very weird call. This doesn't seem right to me at all

[UKRavenStockers]

Anyone know what the e-mail address is for the Official Review Segment on NFL Total Access on Wednesday's? It won't change anything but I'd at least be interested to know whether it was a blown call not to enforce the false start and negate the play.

[Lee Van Cleef]

I'm sure Pereira will explain it away.

[UKRavenStockers]

Well the NFL's rule segment on their website is useless. I've got the NCAA's rulebook on my laptop on a .pdf and that backs up my understanding that the pre-snap false start penalty should've whistled the play dead and made Suggs' penalty irrelevant. Now if only I could find a .pdf of the NFL's rulebook and see if there's any difference there, can't imagine that there should be but always good to be sure.

Seems to me that the ref ignored and enforced the wrong penalties.

[4G63]

QB's are like saints now, you can't touch them!!!....and as others have said, a false start would be a dead play so how can Suggs hit a QB?

[4G63]

Well the NFL's rule segment on their website is useless. I've got the NCAA's rulebook on my laptop on a .pdf and that backs up my understanding that the pre-snap false start penalty should've whistled the play dead and made Suggs' penalty irrelevant. Now if only I could find a .pdf of the NFL's rulebook and see if there's any difference there, can't imagine that there should be but always good to be sure.

Seems to me that the ref ignored and enforced the wrong penalties.

It is a crappy page at nfl.com! Why wouldn't they have a .pdf of the rules? :mad: :229031_confused2:

[BlackSunday]

Champagne's on ice in the refs' locker room.

BS

[UKRavenStockers]

It is a crappy page at nfl.com! Why wouldn't they have a .pdf of the rules? :mad: :229031_confused2:

Yep, that's what I found, went there first and realised it was useless so went to my NCAA pdf. Can't imagine there would be a difference, but we all know that the rules protecting the QB are very different between the NCAA and the NFL so it's not beyond the realms of the possible that a roughing the passer penalty overrides a false start.

Though continuing this officiating bitch (yes I'm bored, and hungry, why didn't I eat during the game? Why am I rambling?) Haynesworth should've been called for a personal foul when he threw Flacco to ground on his encroachment.

[Rayvens52]

That was absolute bullshit. The penalty should never have been called because the play never should have been run, and for the SIMPLE FACT THAT HE DIDN'T EVEN TOUCH HIS HELMET. FUCK THE REF'S! I am so tired of them fucking games up, they should have there game checks taken away when they ruin the game!

[Ravenator]

I know I am bitter right now....but I swear that one day there is going to be a drunk/pissed off fan that is really going to beat the hell out of a ref. The NFL has to crack down on these officials. I like Ed H. but he missed a call three weeks ago. Then this? And I love how the Associated Press fails to mention the false start...though they do say that the Personal Foul was bogus.

I am not saying the NFL is out to get us...but I feel the refs are so worried about making the wrong call now a days that they make every F-ing call possible.

The thing is...at least Ed H. got the call right...though he messed it up. By rule, that was the right call after the Instant Replay. This may have been a blown call but you better believe the NFL will not do anything about it.

[Lee Van Cleef]

David says:
I know why Miami beat SD now; they direct snapped to Ronnie Brown for another TD run.
Tobias says:
jesus, is no one going to catch on to that play?
David says:
I'd like to see them try it against the Ravens, taken down the backfield for a loss of 5, then a phantom roughing the passer penalty on Terrell Suggs getting Miami a first down and goal.
Tobias says:
hah

What I said.

[Lee Van Cleef]

It continued:


David says:
NE just direct snapped to RB Kevin Faulk on 4th and 2 from the goalline to score a TD.
Tobias says:
HAHAHA, ok, so now everyone's doing it
Tobias says:
I hope the Bears do it next week
Tobias says:
Faulk got two TDs in this game
David says:
I hope the Ravens do it against the Colts next week. Punch it in with McClain for the TD, then there'll be a phantom roughing the passer penalty on Terrell Suggs negating the play.
Tobias says:
lol, cut that shit out!

[Lee Van Cleef]

and finally:


Tobias says:
christ, WTF is with this Bills/Cards game?
Tobias says:
Must be the loss of Edwards
David says:
I don't know. Watching the Pats, the Zona game is blacked out on Gamepass in the UK.
David says:
Probably something to do with a phantom roughing the passer penalty on Terrell Suggs.

[MikeinGlennDale]

The referee attempts to explain this using the "5-15" rule.

There still would have been 5 minutes left but it was a momentum changer.

There was an obvious PI on Ravens 41 that wasn't called right after the blown INT call. Dude never even turned his head...that was clearly the proverbial 'make up' call.

This game was poorly called from start to finish.

[Mrbunks]

Don't remember this from last week, but it's my understanding that the Ref's call this a "five and 15" situation. The false start is ignored and the personal foul is enforced.

[UKRavenStockers]

It'd seem there's been a few penalties called this way over the season, here's the transcript from the NFL gamebook of the Cowboys vs Eagles MNF game:


PENALTY on
PHI-58-T.Cole, Unnecessary Roughness, 15 yards, enforced at DAL 43 - No Play.
Penalty on DAL-89-T.Curtis, False Start, superseded.

Seems that the 5 vs 15 penalty does apply, but it still strikes as it coming down the inability of the officiating crew to whistle a play dead. It'd seem that if it occurs, the 5 vs 15 does apply, but if the officiating crew does their job the 15 yard penalty shouldn't have a chance to occur.

[Mwjergs]

That's correct.
They played an interview with the ref in question on the post game show I listened to on the ride home.
False start is called. If the players continue the play then they let it play out. If let's say the Titans would have completed the big pass play it would have been negated.

The officials should have stepped in and blown the play dead.

[Rayvens52]

That's correct.
They played an interview with the ref in question on the post game show I listened to on the ride home.
False start is called. If the players continue the play then they let it play out. If let's say the Titans would have completed the big pass play it would have been negated.

The officials should have stepped in and blown the play dead.

That is a such a bullshit rule becuase if they would have thrown a pick it would not count due to the play truly never occuring. The NFL needs to fix this like yesterday, but besides that there should never have been a flag as it was beyond one of the worst calls of the year (besides the Ed.H call in the Denver game)

[Gabrosin]

It makes perfect sense to me to allow personal foul penalties to be called on dead plays. Otherwise you're saying Suggs could have picked up the QB and broken him over one knee and not get a flag because "the play was dead".

My problem with the call is that THEY BLEW IT. He didn't touch the QB's helmet, his hand came down on Collins' shoulderpad. Just a miserable miserable call.

[ravenwoman]

There are too many bad calls in the NFL for all of this to be a coincidence. It only takes one referee to make one game changing call. And, if you notice, they are always in the 4th quarter when the other team has no time to recover. Teams in the NFL are fairly evenly matched and there was only a 2.5 point spread. Tennessee won by 3 points. I say no more. No, I say some of these refs are on the take, and you know what I mean.

[festivus]

Seems that the 5 vs 15 penalty does apply, but it still strikes as it coming down the inability of the officiating crew to whistle a play dead. It'd seem that if it occurs, the 5 vs 15 does apply, but if the officiating crew does their job the 15 yard penalty shouldn't have a chance to occur.

It would seem to me, with a false start and a personal foul, they are *both* dead ball fouls, for different reasons. But a false start should not preclude a subsequent penalty on the same play that would be in the class of personal fouls.

Obviously the call was complete bullshit; I'm just trying to respond to this one point you're making.

[Mwjergs]

Once the flag was thrown they needed to blow the play dead. They did not and you had the stupidity unfold.

If they make the right call the game is over.

[RavensInBrazil]

I have never seen them let a play continue after a false start. Regardless of what happens, they always whistle the play dead. Now, I didn't see the Suggs hit, but these refs are clearly either on dope or in on the whole thing. Now I know how SD fans feel :thumbdown:

[UKRavenStockers]

I have never seen them let a play continue after a false start. Regardless of what happens, they always whistle the play dead. Now, I didn't see the Suggs hit, but these refs are clearly either on dope or in on the whole thing. Now I know how SD fans feel :thumbdown:

I see plenty of plays "happen" after a false start, or rather the scorer notes them down but they're usually run plays and they stop quickly. However the play doesn't actually "happen", in these cases the head linesman or the side judge (think I've got the right officials there) are usually running in from the sideline signalling for a clock stoppage to call the dead ball foul and the play just goes through because they couldn't hear the whistle. But until this play yesterday and the same on Monday night against the Steelers I don't think I've ever seen them not even attempt to whistle a false start as dead.

[HoustonRaven]

How many plays were there between the penalty and the final TD?

Some perspective on the penalty. While it was a 100% momentum killer, it wasnt the end of the game and NOTHING like what happened to SD.

Supremely bad call? YES!

Cost us the game? Not by a long shot.

Our D still had a chance to stop them and they didnt.

[3RDRowRaven]

That was absolute bullshit. The penalty should never have been called because the play never should have been run, and for the SIMPLE FACT THAT HE DIDN'T EVEN TOUCH HIS HELMET. FUCK THE REF'S! I am so tired of them fucking games up, they should have there game checks taken away when they ruin the game!

Agreed!!! I was like what the fuck!!! :taz:

[4G63]

How many plays were there between the penalty and the final TD?

Some perspective on the penalty. While it was a 100% momentum killer, it wasnt the end of the game and NOTHING like what happened to SD.

Supremely bad call? YES!

Cost us the game? Not by a long shot.

Our D still had a chance to stop them and they didnt.

:iagree:

[Ravenator]

It makes perfect sense to me to allow personal foul penalties to be called on dead plays. Otherwise you're saying Suggs could have picked up the QB and broken him over one knee and not get a flag because "the play was dead".


Seems the refs of our game had not problem letting the Titans slam Flacco to the ground on an earlier encroachment penalty!!!! If your going to miss the call once, don't call it at all.

[RavensFanIAm]

How many plays were there between the penalty and the final TD?

Some perspective on the penalty. While it was a 100% momentum killer, it wasnt the end of the game and NOTHING like what happened to SD.

Supremely bad call? YES!

Cost us the game? Not by a long shot.

Our D still had a chance to stop them and they didnt.

Agree 100%. That being said, it still stings, though. No only that, but I was at the game and Trevor Pryce was held twice on that drive alone and not once was it called. I'm just so sick of the refs input (or lack thereof) in games.

But the D had 65 more yards to stop them and they didn't. :thumbdown:

[festivus]

In general (and against both teams, to be fair) this was the worst officiated game we've seen this season.

Oh well, time to go play the Colts.

[bmoreravengirl]

I can hear it already:

"Personal foul unnecessary roughness, breathing on St. Peyton, 15 yd. penalty, automatic 1st down."

[sailorsam]

It makes perfect sense to me to allow personal foul penalties to be called on dead plays. Otherwise you're saying Suggs could have picked up the QB and broken him over one knee and not get a flag because "the play was dead".

My problem with the call is that THEY BLEW IT. He didn't touch the QB's helmet, his hand came down on Collins' shoulderpad. Just a miserable miserable call.

:iagree:

I was flipping channels and every commentator I heard (ESPN, NFL network) agreed it was a bogus call.

[Ravenswarrior19]

If it was a "PF-Blow to the Head" penalty, then I want Flacco's fumble against Pittsburgh called a "PF-Helmet to Helmet on the QB".

On that play, Harrison's helmet hit Joe in the cheek. It wasn't malicious, or even intentional, but the officiating should be consistent. If any brush on the helmet is gonna be "blow to the head", than any helmet contact should be a PF too.

[Ravenator]

If it was a "PF-Blow to the Head" penalty, then I want Flacco's fumble against Pittsburgh called a "PF-Helmet to Helmet on the QB".

On that play, Harrison's helmet hit Joe in the cheek. It wasn't malicious, or even intentional, but the officiating should be consistent. If any brush on the helmet is gonna be "blow to the head", than any helmet contact should be a PF too.

I think there may have been Malice in Harrison's eyes LOL

[Dave Lap]

How many plays were there between the penalty and the final TD?

Some perspective on the penalty. While it was a 100% momentum killer, it wasnt the end of the game and NOTHING like what happened to SD.

Supremely bad call? YES!

Cost us the game? Not by a long shot.

Our D still had a chance to stop them and they didnt.

Exactly. The call sucked but the key to the game was our inability to get to Collins on the last drive. He had too much time to throw on many plays. Give any QB that much time with a depleted secondary due to a blitz and he'll beat you.

To Collin's credit, on the one play where we got to him quickly, he unloaded the ball just before the hit for a completion.

Still, you can't entirely fault the defense for the loss either. Holding a quality opponent to 13 points should be enough for a win.

[ravensmaven]

So did the refs actually blow the whistle and no one was able to hear it? I was at the other end of the field and there is no way I could have heard anything from there. I am still nursing a raw throat from all the screaming. So, does that mean we are too loud and we all bear some responsibility here?

I know this is all pointless anyway since Suggs was called for something he didn't do. Anyone have a link to the video from that supposed beating he put down on Collins? Just in case I am not pissed off enough already...

Anyway, these other stupid penalties must stop. We can't afford them.

[Ravenator]

I guess what bothers me most is that the head official is right by the QB. If it was a false start I think Collins would have heard the whistle from him and why cant that official jump in front of collins to protect him from an unnecessary hit?

Just wondering, Did anyone actually see them throw the flag for a false start and did the announcer's mention the false start as the play was developing on TV?

[Ravenswarrior19]

If you watch the replay, you can see the official on the line of scrimmage (bottom of the t.v. screen) running in to stop the play. I don't know if he's actually blowing the whistle, cuz you definately can't hear it.

[ravens138]

Suggs has a reason to be pissed off. The refs just don't seem to get any better.

[Sports Steve]

That was a very weird call. This doesn't seem right to me at all

There have been a lot of strange calls this season.

[ravensnhokies]

What about consistency within a game.... On our TD drive, Haynesworth encroached and tackled Flacco. No PF call.

[Ravenator]

I think thats what everyone is getting to. The game was not called consistently. If your going to F-Up once...F-Up the rest of the game.....oh wait they did.

[PARavensJeff]

I think I saw Houston Ravens take & agree. The PF did not lose the game. If the refs don't call the PF, just the False Start, it is now 3rd & 15. If we are an elite D, then we should have stopped them whether it was 3rd & 15 from the 15 or 1st & 10 from the 35. We allowed them 2 long drives. The 1st 1 was the 81 yard drive from their 11 yard line that resulted in the FG, then the 80 yard drive for the TD. The game was dominated by the Ravens except for those 2 drives & that is why we lost the game. The penalty was bogus but that's not why we lost the game. Yes, 13 points allowed should be enough to win a game, but we were playing against a D just as good.

We need to move on & get ready for the Colts

[bmorebirds_24]

i havent taken the time to read everyones post but i am gonna say my opinion and ask a question......does it make sense that the referee said they "tried to stop the play"but the players didnt hear the whistle????

thats total bullshit!!!!!!!!!!


if they are gonna throw flags for bullshit hits like suggs trying to knock down a pass,then they better start flagging ray for laying hits on a offensive player every week.


anybody have this referee's email address.....:rolling: (just so everyone knows I AM KIDDING BOUT HIS EMAIL ADDRESS)

DONT WANT THE POLICE KNOCKING AT THE DOOR

[Smoke]

If there is a illegal procedure penalty against the offense, the refs no only should blow their whistles but be motioning time is out play dead. Did anyone see this happen? Just a bad call all around. Didn't help us win a game, but defense has to come up big! They only played 57 minutes in that game.

[festivus]

I think I saw Houston Ravens take & agree. The PF did not lose the game. If the refs don't call the PF, just the False Start, it is now 3rd & 15. If we are an elite D, then we should have stopped them whether it was 3rd & 15 from the 15 or 1st & 10 from the 35. We allowed them 2 long drives. The 1st 1 was the 81 yard drive from their 11 yard line that resulted in the FG, then the 80 yard drive for the TD. The game was dominated by the Ravens except for those 2 drives & that is why we lost the game. The penalty was bogus but that's not why we lost the game. Yes, 13 points allowed should be enough to win a game, but we were playing against a D just as good.

We need to move on & get ready for the Colts

This thread was an academic question about the rules. Those of us who want to gripe about officiating can do so here, and if we want to talk about something else we can do that in another thread. Those of you jumping in to tell us to stop looking backward, or that the players also let us down, are barking up the wrong tree.

[bmorebirds_24]

Anybody remember the phantom call on Heap last year against Cinci that cost us the game? SCREWED AGAIN!!!

i sure do.you talking about about in the endzone at the end of the game???

[purplepoe]

If you want to see really bad officiating, turn on ESPN and watch what Hoculi's crew is doing to the Saints.

It's embarrassing.

PP

[HoustonRaven]

PP, I am kinda scratching my head at that one.

Other then the missed face mask, what was wrong?

I dont mind ref's missing calls every now and then. That's expected.

It's when they see the play outright and blow it is when its embarrassing.

[purplepoe]

PP, I am kinda scratching my head at that one.

Other then the missed face mask, what was wrong?

I dont mind ref's missing calls every now and then. That's expected.

It's when they see the play outright and blow it is when its embarrassing.

The obvious incomplete that was ruled complete in which NO had to burn a challenge.

Then they ruled (after about 10 seconds) that Peterson didn't fumble a ball in which NO recovered and was in the midst of running back deep into Minny territory. It was reviewed (was a fumble) yet ruled a non fumble.

Terrible.

PP

[RAVENOUS52]

Bad calls that change the MOMENTUM of a game are an abomination that, unfortunately, will never fully disappear.

Let's deal with it and get ready to cheer for our team in Indy.

[bmoreravengirl]

Anybody remember the phantom call on Heap last year against Cinci that cost us the game? SCREWED AGAIN!!!

Do I? STILL ticked about that, and the Cleveland game in Baltimore.

Why is it that we should have to game-plan for the opposing team AND the refs?

UNACCEPTABLE!! :mad: :mad:

[RavenDavey]

If you watch the replay, you can see the official on the line of scrimmage (bottom of the t.v. screen) running in to stop the play. I don't know if he's actually blowing the whistle, cuz you definately can't hear it.

but watch it again and see how long it takes him to get on the field from the side. He needed to make the call in a split second, but in the amount of time he took to decide it was a false start, Suggs gets the BS call!!

He wouldn't make it in a game show if he held the buzzer!! Although he may be a Jeopardy answer one day...

Alex, I'll have "Blown Calls" for $1000.00 please....