PSL waiting list letters mailed

[RavensDomination]

When I first joined the list in 2006 I figured by the time I can afford PSL's I'll get them. I was thinking 5 years, maybe more. At this rate, it's gonna be a lot more. I went down to 1850 this recent round, I think I was at around 2,000 something last year, I have 2,068 in my head but I'm not sure how accurate that is. Anyway, the list is moving slow while the Ravens are pushing their PSL marketplace as well as the PSL waiting list marketplace.

To me, the Ravens have royally screwed up with the list. First, the list was based on the presumption that a) people would give their PSL's back to the team (for free, the team won't buy them back), b) the Ravens could expand the capacity of the stadium by a considerable amount and c) people would lose their PSL's through misconduct policies. It would be monumentally stupid for a person to give their PSL back rather than sell them on the open market, especially now that the Ravens created a PSL marketplace. Then there's the idea that they would "create" more seats, which they already did once by stuffing in sections where open areas used to be in the upper level near the corner of the end zones. They also cleared a lot of the band out, but now it seems like there are no more seats to be created, even when they do kick the band out for good that will only be another 500 seats or so, just a dent in the 3,000 person waiting list. The conduct policy seats are probably few and far between.

So where does leave us on the waiting list? I don't know why anyone would spend money on a new waiting list position, which I think they do have some open even though it's a "closed" list. And I really don't know why some people would pay thousands to buy a position, even in the top 500 you are looking at years before you get a shot, and the outlook from then on is bleak at best.

Another mistake made was that you could request up to four seats per person. So there are 1849 people in front of me, and let's say the average # of seats requested is 3 (probably slightly more but we'll go with a conservative number) that would be over 5500 seats I would need to come open before I get a chance. 5500!! This would never happen, ever. Never.

Where does this leave us? Pay 10 grand for PSL's through the official marketplace, hope and pray people don't pay their $25 maintenance fee to stay on the list, or hope and pray people are dumb enough to turn in their PSL's or dumb enough to get them revoked.

What the Ravens need to do is bump everyone down to two seats per person on the list. Then, they need to tell PSL holders if they want quick cash they can turn them in to the Ravens and they will get face value. Finally, give people a realistic projection as to when they feel they will get a shot at PSL's through the list.

Just my 2 cents...

[braven98]

Just hang in there another bad season and the bandwagon fans will sell.But it wont be this year ....

[The Fanatic]

Where does this leave us? Pay 10 grand for PSL's through the official marketplace, hope and pray people don't pay their $25 maintenance fee to stay on the list, or hope and pray people are dumb enough to turn in their PSL's or dumb enough to get them revoked.

In a word.... Yes!!

Unfortunately for many (particurally the younger crowd) the stadium only holds so many people.
Exactly how would you propose they expand the stadium?
You cannot just keep adding on levels to a building.

There are people in other NFL citys that have been on waiting lists for multiple decades.
The list gets handed down through generations of family until the name is finally made it one decade.

Lots of people bought into this thing at day 1 like myself to enjoy football and maybe have some type of small investment to fall back on one day in the future.


I bought my 2 PSLs for 3000.00 each in the beginning.

I've seen where folks have sold a pair of PSLs in a similar area to where I sit for 50000.00.

I can assure you there is no way I'd let the Ravens just take them over by going into default.
I'd sell the season tickets every year for a profit before I just gave away that type of $$.

So yes, your only choice is to fork over large bucks to beat the system, or buy tickets on the open market every year.
In the mean time, I'd keep your name on the list and hope one day your children will be able to enjoy what you originally started out to do like so many in other citys do.

[HoustonRaven]

Not to be too blunt, but it sounds like you had unrealistic expectations about the list from the start.

I do not ever remember a time when the team was going to put in new seats so I am not sure where you got that from. And even if they did, that's a one time deal and would have only brought the list number down slightly.

I joined the list and quickly realized it would have taken almost 10 years before I saw a PSL. I bought my PSL's off Ebay and removed my name from the list. Mine were $5,000 each at the stadium price and I ended up shelling out $13,000 for both. That's the price you pay if you want seats right away.

Fanatic is right -- be thankful you're not waiting on Redskins tickets. That list is a lifetime of waiting.

[The Fanatic]

Fanatic is right -- be thankful you're not waiting on Redskins tickets. That list is a lifetime of waiting.

If he was waiting for Packer tickets his great, great , great grandchildren might have a shot.

They did add some seats a couple years ago as he stated, but definitely not an overwhelming amount.

They filled in a few rows in the upper corners, etc.

[HoustonRaven]

If he was waiting for Packer tickets his great, great , great grandchildren might have a shot.

They did add some seats a couple years ago as he stated, but definitely not an overwhelming amount.

They filled in a few rows in the upper corners, etc.

Ah yes. Forgot about those. Added something like 4,000 seats.

[RagingRaven]

I didnt read everything said above but. I bet if you go to the marketplace and make offers on any seat you would like to each person that has a seat you would take you will get tickets at a reasonable price. Some of those people just want to get rid of them and some have been for sale for a long time. Someone will bargin with you sooner or later.

[ravenfever_com]

#1 I do not think they will ever remove the Marching Band from the stadium.

I think that people who joined the list right away made out like great due to the changes in the Band seats and the added seats the placed into the vault.

Keep in mind that the Ravens have 10 tailgate party tents that include game tickets for 20 people per tent. Those tents do not always sell out and they might end up closing that idea for good one day. They are good seats too. Low row uppers between to 30s

I wish you luck, but the best chance is the open market ... Lowers can be $5K-$20K per PSL however

[xmradiodave]

I bailed out of the waiting list. I was on it for 2 years and barely moved at all. Was not worth the wait. I was fortunate enough to get season tickets this year. Season tickets can always be found. I do not care about sitting in the same seat every year.

[PARavensJeff]

This is why I took care of in 96 so I would never miss a game. Nothing beats Sundays when the Ravens are home, tailgating & having fun. It was worth the $750 per PSL in 96

[LOT"H"TAILGATER]

Me 2, I bought in at 750 in 96 and sell my upper levels for enough to offset the price of buying lowers,,, even if I don't get lowers I have 2 seats gauranteed. I will sell my psl's for 3k a piece , sec 521,,, send me a message... do you really want to buy or are you just bitching because you are a day late

[RavensDomination]

This is why I took care of in 96 so I would never miss a game. Nothing beats Sundays when the Ravens are home, tailgating & having fun. It was worth the $750 per PSL in 96

When you are 13 years old it takes a lot of Sundays selling newspapers on the corner to come up with $750.

[RavensDomination]

I didnt read everything said above but. I bet if you go to the marketplace and make offers on any seat you would like to each person that has a seat you would take you will get tickets at a reasonable price. Some of those people just want to get rid of them and some have been for sale for a long time. Someone will bargin with you sooner or later.

I agree, I just don't like the Ravens charging people to be on the waiting list and acting like there is a realistic chance of them getting PSL's when there definitely isn't.

[3RDRowRaven]

This is why I took care of in 96 so I would never miss a game. Nothing beats Sundays when the Ravens are home, tailgating & having fun. It was worth the $750 per PSL in 96


Lots of people bought into this thing at day 1 like myself to enjoy football and maybe have some type of small investment to fall back on one day in the future.

Those are the reasons why I jump on starting day 1 in 96. I knew way down the road this would turn into something big in the future. I knew that the value of the PSL's would grow, a PSL waiting list would form, and the Ravens will create a productive teams year after year. So far this year looks like a Ravens team that could finish above 500.

[ravensfan1996]

I think the waiting list has gone exactly as planned....i didnt think it would ever move "fast" except if they somehow added a bunch of seats...which a few years they did add a couple thousand seats in the end zones(made the band smaller and mover over) and also the upper corners. But now i dont see how or where they could add seats now. So the list only moves when people GIVE them back to the ravens...which you can see isnt often.

It sounds like you already knew the list wouldnt move, had you jumped in a few years ago who knows...otherwise...check ebay and the marketplace they do have "deals" on there sometimes ive seen them....upper deck of course.

My psl's are $5000 face value now, paid $1500 in 1996...but they go from anywhere from $7-$10k a piece...so ive seen offered at $25k but hadnt seem them actually sell...its a nice investment....but id never sell...i go for the fun.

[PARavensJeff]

When you are 13 years old it takes a lot of Sundays selling newspapers on the corner to come up with $750.

Huh??

[Sephy]

He's saying he was too young to get on the boat in 96. Perhaps I should get on the waiting list now - by the time I get PSL's I'll be retired. And I'm 25.

[Drkraven]

I WAS a Redskins fan before we got the Ravens, put my name on their list in 1990 and was offered seats 3 years ago, which I turned down of course! We paid 500 dollars a seat in 1998, but 3 had to buy 3 seats. PSL's in our endzone were going for 15-20,000 A PIECE. They are a prized possession. In our will each of my sons are willed 1 PSL.

[PARavensJeff]

He's saying he was too young to get on the boat in 96. Perhaps I should get on the waiting list now - by the time I get PSL's I'll be retired. And I'm 25.

Oops sorry, long day

[Mr.Boh]

I got on the list last year and moved 300 spots so far. But I only put in for 1 seat, I think it moves faster. I hope I dont get seats for at least 5 more years, as right now, I really could not afford them.

[xmradiodave]

In Keeping with my tradition of not buying a PSL but just season tickets from a multi seat PSL owner... I officially place my bid for the '09 season. Anyone willing to sell off their tickets for '09... let me know. Bid early and often. Thats my motto. :D

[RavensDomination]

I got on the list last year and moved 300 spots so far. But I only put in for 1 seat, I think it moves faster. I hope I dont get seats for at least 5 more years, as right now, I really could not afford them.

Yea that was my original intention too. And I just bought a house, I'm in no position to buy them now either. I really don't think even 5 years is a realistic number though. I am thinking more like 20 years at this point.

[middleriverterp]

I put myself on the PSL list 6 years ago when we got back to Maryland. This year (April) the ticket office called and offered 4 in club (no way we could afford that) so I cut 2 seat requests and got 2 in the lower bowl. I thought we moved prety fast through the process.

[Ravannapolis]

I put myself on the wait list for four tickets four seasons ago. If I remember correctly, my original position on the list was in the 1300s. Last year I was in the 1000s and this year the most recent letter shows me in the 700s. With that trend I am likely to be offered PSLs in another 4-5 years.

I got tired of waiting and ended up purchasing two PSLs in the upper deck (531) a few years ago from a private seller. I still have them, but I ended up purchasing two PSLs from the Marketplace in the club level (237) for this year. When my name comes up on the list I am hoping that I have an option to buy PSLs closer to mid-field at face value after which I will sell my other 4 PSLs.

[ravenwoman]

The moral of the story is that if you really want to be a PSL holder immediately, go marketplace or Ebay. You will end up paying a premium, but you will have your seats for life. Also, you have to like where you sit. That is very important. Be patient, save your money, and keep your eye out. Usually there are more PSL's being sold after a lousy season.

[RavensDomination]

The moral of the story is that if you really want to be a PSL holder immediately, go marketplace or Ebay. You will end up paying a premium, but you will have your seats for life. Also, you have to like where you sit. That is very important. Be patient, save your money, and keep your eye out. Usually there are more PSL's being sold after a lousy season.

In this economy I am glad you have 10 grand to throw around, but I sure as heck don't.

I'm not expecting to be a PSL holder immediately, but there is no way I will be one in 20 years on this list. It's a farce.

[Drkraven]

I know several people getting rid of PSL's in 115 at face. Check the paper. One guy is a real estate broker that is moving out of state and the other is a single.

[HoustonRaven]

Go to ebay as well ....

Just did a quick search and a bunch came up a fair prices. Found LL's for $7,500 in the end zone.

[psuasskicker]

I agree, I just don't like the Ravens charging people to be on the waiting list and acting like there is a realistic chance of them getting PSL's when there definitely isn't.

This list doesn't manage itself. Your expectations are too high if you think a company is going to just pay for something and charge you nothing to off-set their costs...business doesn't work like that.

$25/person/year at 3k people is $75k per year to manage the list. It's likely a full time job they can pay out at $35k for someone to manage. Payroll taxes, benefits, etc...fully load that cost...put that probably in the range of $55k/year. Add on various costs of systems in place to support the management of the list, as well as processing costs of receiving the fees, sending invoices, etc...

I think it's a good bet that the Ravens are breaking even at best on the $25 you're paying to stay on that list.


In this economy I am glad you have 10 grand to throw around, but I sure as heck don't.

I'm not expecting to be a PSL holder immediately, but there is no way I will be one in 20 years on this list. It's a farce.

Some of you guys have totally unreasonable expectations here. Wait lists aren't just designed for you to get on them and then have tickets two years later. It doesn't work that way, and it's not the Ravens fault if that's what you thought...it's yours.

You've got one of three options here:
1) Get on the wait list. Say you wait 20 years for PSLs. You'll have paid $500 in maintenance fees, and get a $10,000 PSL for $10,000.

2) Buy that PSL right now on the market place. That PSL probably costs $5,000 face right now (price increases 20 years from now will probably more than double, but whatever). You will probably pay around $12,500 for that PSL right now.
To relate the two, I did a quick NPV of the price difference of $500 over 20 years, and $10k after twenty, vs. $12,500 now. Here's essentially what you're paying in today's dollars doing those two things:
Market place purchase - $12,500
Wait list purchase - $3,400
You're essentially paying about a 400% premium to buy your tickets now. That shouldn't come as a shock to anyone.

3) Don't buy PSLs, just scalp tickets. This isn't hard. Two years ago I had season tickets in row 152, row 16 at a 120% premium of face value fall into my lap without even looking for them. It wouldn't be difficult at all to find tickets to every game at anywhere between lower than face to slightly above face for upper deck seats, to 200%+ premiums on lower level mid-field seats.

Your choice, but don't whine about the choices you've got. It's supply and demand...econ 101.

- C -

[FellsPointRaven]

I put myself on the wait list for four tickets four seasons ago. If I remember correctly, my original position on the list was in the 1300s. Last year I was in the 1000s and this year the most recent letter shows me in the 700s. With that trend I am likely to be offered PSLs in another 4-5 years.

I got tired of waiting and ended up purchasing two PSLs in the upper deck (531) a few years ago from a private seller. I still have them, but I ended up purchasing two PSLs from the Marketplace in the club level (237) for this year. When my name comes up on the list I am hoping that I have an option to buy PSLs closer to mid-field at face value after which I will sell my other 4 PSLs.

Pretty much the same as me. I bought two PSL's on Ebay in Sec 529 three years ago and am still in those seats. I paid 18% over face value for the PSL/2005 season ticket package. At the same time I put us on the List.

Most recent letter has us at 570 or so, so I'd expect it to be 2-3 years before we get an offer. At that point, I'll sell my existing PSL's, provided the Ravens offer me better seats than I have now.

PSU - as a note, the maintenance fee paid annually does actually go toward the cost of the PSL, so say you've paid $200 in maintenance fees and get offered two PSL's at $5000 a piece, you'd pay $9800 to the Ravens for them.

[RavensDomination]

This list doesn't manage itself. Your expectations are too high if you think a company is going to just pay for something and charge you nothing to off-set their costs...business doesn't work like that.

Really? that's funny, so the Packers and the Skins, both teams have extensive waiting lists that are free, are losing money keeping a word document database on a computer in some office?


$25/person/year at 3k people is $75k per year to manage the list. It's likely a full time job they can pay out at $35k for someone to manage. Payroll taxes, benefits, etc...fully load that cost...put that probably in the range of $55k/year. Add on various costs of systems in place to support the management of the list, as well as processing costs of receiving the fees, sending invoices, etc...

Where in God's name do you come up with this? You do realize being on the list includes one person at the ticket office (making 11 dollars an hour more than likely) typing your name/address into an excel spreadsheet and clicking the "SAVE" option? You do realize the fee's for the list are not to pay someone's salary but to "verify a person's interest" in keeping their position on the list.


I think it's a good bet that the Ravens are breaking even at best on the $25 you're paying to stay on that list.

I think it's a good bet whoever cut that crack you smoked this morning isn't breaking even because it was far to pure to turn a profit.


Some of you guys have totally unreasonable expectations here. Wait lists aren't just designed for you to get on them and then have tickets two years later. It doesn't work that way, and it's not the Ravens fault if that's what you thought...it's yours.

Funny, the Ravens reiterated time and time again that this was a "closed" list to give fans a "realistic expectation" on acquiring seats. What does realistic mean to you, 20 years? The Packers list, according to their site, is 50k members and they estimate 30 years. Supposedly the purpose of a "closed" list was to avoid this large time frame that comes with an "open" list, according to Baker Koppleman, VP of Tickets and Sales (I'm sure you're familiar with him given your vast expertise in this area).




You've got one of three options here:

Thank you Captain obvious. No one is surprised about paying a premium for anything, this thread ISN'T about high PSL prices, open market tickets, or anything of the sort. Thanks for playing.

[Mista T]

I'd expect it to be 2-3 years before we get an offer. At that point, I'll sell my existing PSL's, provided the Ravens offer me better seats than I have now.

Will you offer a home town discount to your tailgaters?:laugh: I could use more seats nearby.

[FellsPointRaven]

Will you offer a home town discount to your tailgaters?:laugh: I could use more seats nearby.

Let's see how rich I am in 2-3 years, as to whether I can afford to offer any discounts. :laugh:

[psuasskicker]

Really? that's funny, so the Packers and the Skins, both teams have extensive waiting lists that are free, are losing money keeping a word document database on a computer in some office?



Where in God's name do you come up with this? You do realize being on the list includes one person at the ticket office (making 11 dollars an hour more than likely) typing your name/address into an excel spreadsheet and clicking the "SAVE" option? You do realize the fee's for the list are not to pay someone's salary but to "verify a person's interest" in keeping their position on the list.



I think it's a good bet whoever cut that crack you smoked this morning isn't breaking even because it was far to pure to turn a profit.



Funny, the Ravens reiterated time and time again that this was a "closed" list to give fans a "realistic expectation" on acquiring seats. What does realistic mean to you, 20 years? The Packers list, according to their site, is 50k members and they estimate 30 years. Supposedly the purpose of a "closed" list was to avoid this large time frame that comes with an "open" list, according to Baker Koppleman, VP of Tickets and Sales (I'm sure you're familiar with him given your vast expertise in this area).





Thank you Captain obvious. No one is surprised about paying a premium for anything, this thread ISN'T about high PSL prices, open market tickets, or anything of the sort. Thanks for playing.

Sorry. I didn't realize that you knew how to write a macro in Excel that would auto-process when a fan gave their PSL back to the Ravens, send official notification to the first person on the waiting list, process their request for the purchase if they chose to buy, send them to the bottom of the list if they didn't, all while managing whether a person with 2 seats gave up their 2 and the #1 person is requesting 4 and what to do in that circumstance.

That list will not manage itself.

$25 might be high. Might. But who cares if it is?

Yes, I guarantee you if the Skins and Pack are keeping a list, they're losing money on it, and it's stupid to do that. They likely make up for it with higher ticket prices or other things. Wash is #2 most expensive tickets. GB admittedly is lower than ours.

The term "realistic" can mean any number of things. Provide me with some documentation that shows the Ravens told you that you can expect to get seats within 5 years and I'll tell you that you've got a beef. If you can't, then give it a rest.

I paid a premium for my seats...I'm not waiting. I could care less if you can't afford to do the same; welcome to a capitalist society. You don't like the way the game is played, go somewhere else, don't blame the players.

- C -

[RavensDomination]

Yes, I guarantee you if the Skins and Pack are keeping a list, they're losing money on it, and it's stupid to do that. They likely make up for it with higher ticket prices or other things. Wash is #2 most expensive tickets. GB admittedly is lower than ours.

The term "realistic" can mean any number of things. Provide me with some documentation that shows the Ravens told you that you can expect to get seats within 5 years and I'll tell you that you've got a beef. If you can't, then give it a rest.

I paid a premium for my seats...I'm not waiting. I could care less if you can't afford to do the same; welcome to a capitalist society. You don't like the way the game is played, go somewhere else, don't blame the players

The money paid to the team goes toward the purchase of PSL's when you get offered them. Therefore, the team doesn't keep the money, they credit your account when you get offered to buy PSL's. I don't know how else to say it, really. There are already people that work in the ticket office, they didn't bring in more for the list.

In regards to "realistic," like I said, the Ravens stated their purpose of paying to get on the list and having a closed list was to give fans a realistic chance of getting tickets compared to an "open" list like say, Green Bay. Green Bay quotes 30 years on their site. By my estimation, if the list moves an average of 200 spots it will take me around 20 years (I joined the list in 2005). 20 years vs. 30 years, both are pretty far away if you ask me. The NFL will probably be incredibly different by then. Is 20 years realistic? No reasonable person would say yes to that question. I was hoping for around 5, expecting a few more, but 20 years?! That's realistic?

And once again, you are completely missing the point. This thead is about the failure of the list to provide what was promised or at the very least implied. I could take the cash out of my safe and buy lower level PSL's tomorrow if I wanted to, which would be incredibly stupid in this economy IMO, but that is also beside the point. To reiterate, this isn't a debate about the price of PSL's, availability of PSL's, having to buy PSL's, or anything of the sort. It is solely about the farce known as the Ravens PSL waiting list.

[Mista T]

It is solely about the farce known as the Ravens PSL waiting list.

Farce? What better solution should the Ravens provide? Do nothing? Create a bogus internet waiting list like the Redskins (I say bogus because I went through it in 2 years -- the 100,000 is a bullshit number).

There are no more empty seats in the stadium. If there were stadium expansion, it would be very minor, probably just fill in the open area next to the video boards at the club level. I doubt that the four notches could be completely filled in. And the band is going nowhere -- it's a 50+ year Baltimore icon.

[psuasskicker]

Farce? What better solution should the Ravens provide? Do nothing?

Exactly. You whine a lot and don't provide a better solution, so what's the point in whining?

I would be happy to bet you or anyone $1,000 that if you put your name on the GB waiting list right now, you will not have tickets in the next 30 years.

- C -

[middleriverterp]

It's not that big of a farce. I joined the list in '02 and got my season tickets and PSLs this year. I thought it moved kind of fast. Like others have said, there are other places to get PSLs and tickets, but the Ravens offer this service for their fans.

[RavensDomination]

Just got my new position - 1712!

So that's 138 spots down from last year. At this rate I'll be getting my PSL's around 2021 or 2022. I guess that isn't so horrible?

[00Ravens]

I got season tickets this year, but I'm waiting for my Obama tax credit so I can buy PSL's for next year!

[ravensscott57]

I'm not sure I even understand the purpose of the waiting list anymore. When they implemented "The Marketplace" you can find plenty of PSL's for sale at or below face value. Why would you pay to be on a waiting list for PSL's when they are for sale right now. Maybe I'm missing something....

[purplepoe]

I see nothing wrong with the list.


PP

[HoustonRaven]

I'm not sure I even understand the purpose of the waiting list anymore. When they implemented "The Marketplace" you can find plenty of PSL's for sale at or below face value. Why would you pay to be on a waiting list for PSL's when they are for sale right now. Maybe I'm missing something....

Unless you're speaking to that one in a million person who has to unload their PSL's right away, I have never once seen a PSL go for less than face value.

[purplepoe]

Unless you're speaking to that one in a million person who has to unload their PSL's right away, I have never once seen a PSL go for less than face value.

I ran into an old HS friend 4 years ago who was in financial trouble. He mentioned that he was looking to sell his PSLs and needed some quick cash.

He had a check in hand the next day and I had 2 more PSLs at face value.

Got lucky for sure.

PP

[Greg]

I never read this thread before, but now we know why this poster has such a hard on for the band!


The money paid to the team goes toward the purchase of PSL's when you get offered them. Therefore, the team doesn't keep the money, they credit your account when you get offered to buy PSL's.
Then why are you bitching further up-thread about the charge? It is a lay-away program for you that allows you to put money towards your future PSL as you work your way up the list.

I bought my 2 PSLs in H section, 519, for $700 in the spring of 2000 just before the Super Bowl run. They were originally $250 a piece and the price had risen to $350 by then. I called in March and they had nothing available in H. I called again that April and was going to purchase in a higher cost area when by chance I asked about H. Somebody had just upgraded from 2 in H to elsewhere and I snatched these biatches up. I bet I could get 6-8 times my investment easy right now.

Then 2 years ago my seat neighbors, 2 older gentlemen, stopped coming to the games. I gave my business card to a young lady in the seats who was the niece of one. I told her "if he wants to sell tell him to call me." He did, FOR FACE VALUE, to my brother. He made a little profit and allowed my brother to get 2 next to me for a very reasonable price.

[HoustonRaven]

I ran into an old HS friend 4 years ago who was in financial trouble. He mentioned that he was looking to sell his PSLs and needed some quick cash.

He had a check in hand the next day and I had 2 more PSLs at face value.

Got lucky for sure.

PP

And that's my point.

It's a rare thing to find PSL's at face value these days. Hell, I paid $2k over face value and thought I was getting a steal.

[HoustonRaven]

Then why are you bitching further up-thread about the charge? It is a lay-away program for you that allows you to put money towards your future PSL as you work your way up the list

Such a basic thing to get wrong about The List ...

You really think he is actually on the list?

[Greg]

I think he just likes to complain.

Have you seen the website dedicated to the hate for the band?

[HoustonRaven]

I think he just likes to complain.

Have you seen the website dedicated to the hate for the band?

Yes, and now John Ziemann is aware of the site and none too happy about it.

Trademark infringement is a pretty standard thing and his use of the name in the web site is a no-no.

Be happy to share with you his email to me in PM.

[Greg]

Oh, that's right, I forgot you were updating various people in regard to the site's use of trademarked properties.

I'll pass on Zieman's info. I am sure he will do fine without me.

[Bez513]

I think people are better off going to the marketplace, ebay or other places. You may have to pay more now but is it worth waiting longer for an unknown period of time at higher rates?

I know of a coworker selling 2 PSLs, club level, row #1 with 2 aisle seats. These are in section 221 so u look down at the entrance tunnel. PM me if your interested.

On another note, if people didn't know, there is a similar list for parking lot passes. I've been on that for like 8 years now, you don't get a letter, so I need to email them where I'm at these days.

[esmd]

Just got my new position - 1712!

So that's 138 spots down from last year. At this rate I'll be getting my PSL's around 2021 or 2022. I guess that isn't so horrible?

Here's a little tough love:

Quit bitching!!! If you want PSL's, go out and find the best deal you can and BUY THEM from someone looking to sell. I bought my PSL's in early '07 from a very nice man who posts on the Baltimore Sun Ravens forum. He and I got pretty friendly, and he had two extra's that he offered to me at the same price that the Ravens were selling them for at the time. I jumped at it and have never regretted it. Now, I was very fortunate to get them for the price that I did, but he still made a very nice profit on his investment (he'd owned them since '98). There are PSL's available, for not a whole lot more than the Ravens sell them for. You just have to keep your eyes and ears open, and be ready to jump when the the opportunity presents itself. Snooze and you'll probably lose. Luckily for me I have a nice 401k plan that allows me to borrow against it, so that's how I paid for mine. Took me 18 months, but now they're all paid for.

In short, if you want them bad enough, quit bellyaching and find a way.

[RavensDomination]

Here's a little tough love:

Quit bitching!!! If you want PSL's, go out and find the best deal you can and BUY THEM from someone looking to sell. I bought my PSL's in early '07 from a very nice man who posts on the Baltimore Sun Ravens forum. He and I got pretty friendly, and he had two extra's that he offered to me at the same price that the Ravens were selling them for at the time. I jumped at it and have never regretted it. Now, I was very fortunate to get them for the price that I did, but he still made a very nice profit on his investment (he'd owned them since '98). There are PSL's available, for not a whole lot more than the Ravens sell them for. You just have to keep your eyes and ears open, and be ready to jump when the the opportunity presents itself. Snooze and you'll probably lose. Luckily for me I have a nice 401k plan that allows me to borrow against it, so that's how I paid for mine. Took me 18 months, but now they're all paid for.

In short, if you want them bad enough, quit bellyaching and find a way.

In this economy I'm not about to borrow against my retirement for some PSL's, especially with a labor dispute on the horizon.

And how in the hell did you read my post and think I was bitching? I merely pointed out my new number and projected date of possibly buying face value PSL's. Actually I was trying to be somewhat optimistic by saying it isn't so horrible waiting another 10 years. Some of you really need to get a grip on reality.

[Galen Sevinne]

I remember bitching about paying a grand for two PSL's in 1998. It was the only way I could get tickets for the first game at the new stadium and reluctantly bought them from a guy named Bernie that was doing sales back then. I was planning on selling them later but nowadays I don't see that happening anytime in the next 5 decades.

[Mista T]

Here's a little tough love:

Quit bitching!!! If you want PSL's, go out and find the best deal you can and BUY THEM from someone looking to sell.

......... You just have to keep your eyes and ears open, and be ready to jump when the the opportunity presents itself. Snooze and you'll probably lose.

Word of mouth can sometimes get you decent deals. A friend sat behind a couple who got too old & tired to continue their pair of club seats. They got first dibs on those seats for $5,000 - that was about 1/3rd of the prevailing price from craigslist or the Ravens PSL exchange site. My friend then offered them to us so we could all sit together. I obviously pounced on the opportunity (after having my wife & two daughters enduring the frigid 2008 Redskins game in clubs, I had no choice for 2009).

You have to be prepared to move out when the opportunity presents itself.



I remember bitching about paying a grand for two PSL's in 1998. .... I was planning on selling them later but nowadays I don't see that happening anytime in the next 5 decades.

I have never given a thought to selling. I'd buy a few more for my four kids if it fits in with what I now own.

btw: I hope to get another 5 decades, too!

[RavensDomination]

I think people are better off going to the marketplace, ebay or other places. You may have to pay more now but is it worth waiting longer for an unknown period of time at higher rates?

I know of a coworker selling 2 PSLs, club level, row #1 with 2 aisle seats. These are in section 221 so u look down at the entrance tunnel. PM me if your interested.

On another note, if people didn't know, there is a similar list for parking lot passes. I've been on that for like 8 years now, you don't get a letter, so I need to email them where I'm at these days.

Bez, I agree the list is not a good idea. I originally got on it because I didn't have money for PSL's so I figured by the time I got offered them I would have the money. That was four years ago, I have paid money to the list fund every year and have nothing to show for it. I doubt I could even sell my waiting list spot and get my money back. That is the problem I originally had with the list is that the Ravens offered it as a realistic chance for PSL's but that does not appear to be the case. I have softened my stance a little but I am probably being overly optimistic.

I appreciate the offer for the clubs, but the face value is pretty expensive on those I could afford the PSL but not the tickets every year. Thanks though.

[Ravenswarrior19]

There may be a very obvious answer to this question, but ...

can someone tell me what becomes of a PSL whenever the Ravens move into a new stadium?

[esmd]

You could always just join the band, then you'd get a nice LL seat in the end zone.:ww:

[purplepoe]

Bez, I agree the list is not a good idea. I originally got on it because I didn't have money for PSL's so I figured by the time I got offered them I would have the money. That was four years ago, I have paid money to the list fund every year and have nothing to show for it. I doubt I could even sell my waiting list spot and get my money back. That is the problem I originally had with the list is that the Ravens offered it as a realistic chance for PSL's but that does not appear to be the case. I have softened my stance a little but I am probably being overly optimistic.

I appreciate the offer for the clubs, but the face value is pretty expensive on those I could afford the PSL but not the tickets every year. Thanks though.

The thing I can't get past is that you somehow expect the Ravens to do something that is completely out of their control.

What exactly can the team do except sell what PSL's they have under their control?

The answer is nothing.

PP

[RavensDomination]

The thing I can't get past is that you somehow expect the Ravens to do something that is completely out of their control.

What exactly can the team do except sell what PSL's they have under their control?

The answer is nothing.

PP

I expect the Ravens not to lie, or not to tell a half truth. The fact of the matter is the waiting list was sold to the fans as a "realistic chance to purchase face value PSL's" and that is not entirely accurate depending on your definition of "realistic chance." I believe that is where we disagree.

They sold too many positions on the list for it to be a "realistic chance" IMHO.

[Greg]

There may be a very obvious answer to this question, but ...

can someone tell me what becomes of a PSL whenever the Ravens move into a new stadium?

Legally the Ravens sold a PERMANENT seat license, as opposed to the PERSONAL seat license first sold by the Panthers. I think they would have a huge problem if they ever tried to move the team away from Baltimore and any seat licenses would have to transfer.

[purplepoe]

I expect the Ravens not to lie, or not to tell a half truth. The fact of the matter is the waiting list was sold to the fans as a "realistic chance to purchase face value PSL's" and that is not entirely accurate depending on your definition of "realistic chance." I believe that is where we disagree.

They sold too many positions on the list for it to be a "realistic chance" IMHO.

Yea, we definitely disagree.

PP

[esmd]

Legally the Ravens sold a PERMANENT seat license, as opposed to the PERSONAL seat license first sold by the Panthers. I think they would have a huge problem if they ever tried to move the team away from Baltimore and any seat licenses would have to transfer.

It brings up an interesting point though. What happens when the Ravens eventually move out of M&T into a new stadium? Will they try and make us pay for another PSL? To my knowledge, no fanbase has yet had to pay a PSL twice. It'll be an interesting dilemna for the league as a whole when all these new stadiums from the last decade start to show their age and need replacing.

[RavensDomination]

It brings up an interesting point though. What happens when the Ravens eventually move out of M&T into a new stadium? Will they try and make us pay for another PSL? To my knowledge, no fanbase has yet had to pay a PSL twice. It'll be an interesting dilemna for the league as a whole when all these new stadiums from the last decade start to show their age and need replacing.

I can guaran-friggin-tee there will be some more bleeding of the fans if/when we get a new stadium. This time they'll say to "fund the new stadium" or whatever. The NFL is like the government, if they think they can stick it to you and get away with it you can bet your ass they will.

[Drkraven]

IDK how much longer it will be before the Ravens price the average fan out of tickets. My seats that were 35.00 in 1999 are now 90.00 and I have 3--if things go as they have we are looking at another price hike this year.

[HoustonRaven]

if things go as they have we are looking at another price hike this year.

The Ravens stated policy is to raise prices every other year.

Since we just had a price increase, prices will not go up next season.

[Ravenator]

Wow, this is a long thread. I read a majority of it so I am just going to point out something about the seats that our in the the notches of the upper deck. Those seats are not available for season tickets I believe. I have had a friend who sat in those seats and paid for them at a discounted rate because his company was a sponsor of the Ravens. I believe the Ravens hold those seats our for their sponsors and if they don't sell, they show up on ticketmaster at the last minute.

I imagine that if they removed the Miller Lite Flight Deck, the seats would be used in the same way. On a personal note, that flight deck seems like the dumbest idea of all time. Just call it what it is, "Standing room with a beer garden".

[Rayvens52]

I expect the Ravens not to lie, or not to tell a half truth. The fact of the matter is the waiting list was sold to the fans as a "realistic chance to purchase face value PSL's" and that is not entirely accurate depending on your definition of "realistic chance." I believe that is where we disagree.

They sold too many positions on the list for it to be a "realistic chance" IMHO.

If you think it is bad here check out DC or GB or Pitt. They never said you will get tix next year or in 5 years, they said as soon as people sell you will be called. I worked for the skins for awhile and their fans get screwed hard core, we would call on fans on the list and offer them upgrade seats in club for 3-5 years and then guarantee lower bowl after that, meaning someone could jump people who have been waiting for 15-20 years if they have the money.

I think you are misunderstanding the word realistic chance of buying face value tix for being able to buy them within a couple of years, most of us who got on the list all knew i would be a long time.

[RavensDomination]

If you think it is bad here check out DC or GB or Pitt. They never said you will get tix next year or in 5 years, they said as soon as people sell you will be called. I worked for the skins for awhile and their fans get screwed hard core, we would call on fans on the list and offer them upgrade seats in club for 3-5 years and then guarantee lower bowl after that, meaning someone could jump people who have been waiting for 15-20 years if they have the money.

I think you are misunderstanding the word realistic chance of buying face value tix for being able to buy them within a couple of years, most of us who got on the list all knew i would be a long time.

Again, they said "a realistic chance" of getting PSL's. I never expected a year or two. I was expecting 10 tops. If I get them by my projected date I'll be looking at 17. And my projection is probably flawed because I guarantee you most spots that were moved on the list are from people who forgot to pay their $25 fee and lost their spots, not from people who actually got PSL's. I think I might email the Ravens to see how many PSL's were actually given.

I wouldn't have a problem with 17 years if I didn't pay to get on the list and pay to stay on the list. Does Green Bay or Pittsburgh charge?

As a side note, and I'm not complaining about this, but I noticed there are some really low waiting list spots for sale on the Ravens market place, and they only have one rejection remaining. Basically you can turn down the Ravens twice if you don't like the PSL's they are offering, but the third time you have to take their offer or you lose all of your money. So what I take from seeing those waiting list spots for sale is that they got offered some pretty crappy PSL's and are trying to bail before they lose their money.

edit: just looked at the PSL market place, haven't checked in a while. I can't believe the number of PSL's for sale!

[Ravenswarrior19]

It brings up an interesting point though. What happens when the Ravens eventually move out of M&T into a new stadium? Will they try and make us pay for another PSL? To my knowledge, no fanbase has yet had to pay a PSL twice. It'll be an interesting dilemna for the league as a whole when all these new stadiums from the last decade start to show their age and need replacing.

That is more what I was trying to ask. Are these PSLs going to directly transfer to the next Ravens stadium? Or, will it be a first chance re-buy scenario?

I'd love to hear if anyone knows an 'official' answer. I've never found one.

[Mista T]

Is this particular list limited to those PSLs which were defaulted or terminated by the Ravens ("Don't Be a Jerk" violators)? (i.e. not the "PSL Marketplace") If so, there are only so many bozos around who would lose their PSLs for stupid acts (or inaction). I'd be surprised that there would be more than a few dozen a year that actually lose their PSLs.

[Sua Sponte]

Not that a new stadium will not be built some day, but I don't think the vault is going anywhere anytime soon, it is rated high (5) on the Best Stadium's list.

[RavensDomination]

Is this particular list limited to those PSLs which were defaulted or terminated by the Ravens ("Don't Be a Jerk" violators)? (i.e. not the "PSL Marketplace") If so, there are only so many bozos around who would lose their PSLs for stupid acts (or inaction). I'd be surprised that there would be more than a few dozen a year that actually lose their PSLs.

Those PSL's would be part of it. The way I see it there are only three ways PSL's could become available...

1. Someone gets them revoked for conduct
2. Someone forgets to pay the bill and loses them
3. The Ravens create more seats

So in summary - it ain't looking good :p

[pyite32]

How much are upper level PSL's now from the Ravens?

[Nightman]

How much are upper level PSL's now from the Ravens?

Upper level endzone is $1,000 per seat, upper level corners are $750 per seat, that is all I know.

[Mista T]

3. The Ravens create more seats

Not going to happen. Not ever. 71,000 plus a few stragglers is all that will fit.


Someone likes the notches, so they aren't getting filled in.
If something were added next to the video board it would be premium seats, and a sixth deck would be an engineering marvel.
And even though 1 in 10,000 Ravens fans would prefer to see the Band evicted in favor of selling the worst seats in the house to members of military flight crews, Bisciotti isn't going to let it happen!

[Ravenswarrior19]

Seems to me the fastest way to move up the list is for people in front of you to drop off.

I would imagine that is the biggest driver for advancement on the list.

[RavensDomination]

Not going to happen. Not ever. 71,000 plus a few stragglers is all that will fit.


Someone likes the notches, so they aren't getting filled in.
If something were added next to the video board it would be premium seats, and a sixth deck would be an engineering marvel.
And even though 1 in 10,000 Ravens fans would prefer to see the Band evicted in favor of selling the worst seats in the house to members of military flight crews, Bisciotti isn't going to let it happen!


You say not ever - but it's already happened. They've already moved the band out of a ton of seats and they've already filled in some of the notches on the sides.

[ravensscott57]

Unless you're speaking to that one in a million person who has to unload their PSL's right away, I have never once seen a PSL go for less than face value.

HoustonRaven, obviously you are completely misinformed although I'll probably get told to go kill myself again by you for saying that, but for example take a look at the sales data of PSL's in Section E which is All Upper Level Sideline Seats. The face value of the PSL is $2500 according to the Ravens website http://www.baltimoreravens.com/Gameday/Tickets/PSLs_and_Season_Tickets.aspx.

Since November of 2008 there have been 32 "SALES" of seats in Section E on the Ravens Marketplace. 21 of those sales (65%) have been AT or BELOW face value. (data posted below). This again makes me ask the question, why would anyone pay to be on "the list" for a spot to buy PSL's at face value when PSL's are regulary sold at or below face value at the Marketplace... it makes no sense to me.

Woops, I copied and pasted a link that had info from the Ravens website to prove my point.... should I also be worried?



Date # Seats Seating Area Section Row Total Price Per Seat Price

Dec-08 4 Upper Level Sideline (E) 524 10 $13,600 $3,400
Dec-08 2 Upper Level Sideline (E) 525 30 $3,500 $1,750
Dec-08 4 Upper Level Sideline (E) 529 27 $10,000 $2,500
Jan-09 2 Upper Level Sideline (E) 525 26 $4,500 $2,250
Jan-09 4 Upper Level Sideline (E) 502 27 $10,000 $2,500
Feb-09 2 Upper Level Sideline (E) 551 24 $6,003 $3,002
Feb-09 2 Upper Level Sideline (E) 551 24 $6,003 $3,002
Feb-09 2 Upper Level Sideline (E) 529 28 $3,900 $1,950
Mar-09 4 Upper Level Sideline (E) 525 10 $7,200 $1,800
Mar-09 3 Upper Level Sideline (E) 551 14 $6,000 $2,000
Mar-09 2 Upper Level Sideline (E) 524 23 $2,250 $1,125
Apr-09 2 Upper Level Sideline (E) 524 12 $5,500 $2,750
Apr-09 1 Upper Level Sideline (E) 501 16 $1,699 $1,699
Apr-09 2 Upper Level Sideline (E) 502 4 $5,500 $2,750
Apr-09 2 Upper Level Sideline (E) 525 25 $5,500 $2,750
Apr-09 2 Upper Level Sideline (E) 524 14 $5,250 $2,625
Apr-09 4 Upper Level Sideline (E) 525 24 $5,700 $1,425
Apr-09 2 Upper Level Sideline (E) 552 13 $7,500 $3,750
May-09 3 Upper Level Sideline (E) 525 18 $7,500 $2,500
Jun-09 2 Upper Level Sideline (E) 525 24 $4,990 $2,495
Jun-09 2 Upper Level Sideline (E) 528 31 $4,500 $2,250
Jul-09 3 Upper Level Sideline (E) 551 15 $8,000 $2,667
Jul-09 2 Upper Level Sideline (E) 501 24 $5,000 $2,500
Aug-09 2 Upper Level Sideline (E) 529 30 $4,000 $2,000
Aug-09 2 Upper Level Sideline (E) 528 17 $7,150 $3,575
Aug-09 2 Upper Level Sideline (E) 524 14 $5,600 $2,800
Aug-09 2 Upper Level Sideline (E) 525 24 $4,600 $2,300
Aug-09 2 Upper Level Sideline (E) 529 25 $4,000 $2,000
Sep-09 2 Upper Level Sideline (E) 502 32 $3,300 $1,650
Oct-09 4 Upper Level Sideline (E) 528 27 $9,100 $2,275
Oct-09 2 Upper Level Sideline (E) 528 17 $5,000 $2,500

[beach08]

I complating selling my wait list spot for what I've paid in, that is if I can find a buyer. I already own to 2 PSL'S in the lower, but was hoping to get 2 more at face value so like everyone went to the waitlist...I started around #2800 3 years ago and upon signing up the Ravens office said average wait apprx 5 years, well I 'm only made it to #2106 this year at this rate of movement it will at leat 10 more years. Since I have 2 PSL's already...I think i'm giving up on the wait list.

[RavensDomination]

ravensscott57 - good post. I agree and plan on trying to sell my waiting list spot. This economy is not good and not looking good in the future, I don't foresee a PSL as a reasonable investment especially with pending labor problems. I'll wait until the market bottoms out, probably next year or the year after, and buy some with my tax return.


update 14 nov 11 - spot 1510

[esmd]

After a 30 second google search:

http://baltimore.craigslist.org/tix/1448305534.html

http://baltimore.craigslist.org/tix/1447866669.html

http://baltimore.craigslist.org/tix/1446630995.html

http://baltimore.craigslist.org/tix/1449012764.html

[ravensscott57]

After a 30 second google search:

http://baltimore.craigslist.org/tix/1448305534.html

http://baltimore.craigslist.org/tix/1447866669.html

http://baltimore.craigslist.org/tix/1446630995.html

http://baltimore.craigslist.org/tix/1449012764.html

Makes my point, why in the world would you pay to be on a waiting list, for something you can get right now....

[esmd]

Agreed. They're out there for people who want them.

[ravensfan1996]

The only reason to be on the list is to get the PSL's at face value. Those listings posted, and most listings are above face value. SO if you dont mind the wait and dont want to over pay, that is the only reason to be on there.

Otherwise you just buy on the open market.

I think some or most of the 200 available slots are people that got tired of waiting and moved themself of the list.

[Mista T]

"Face value" is really an inappropriate term when discussing PSLs. Unlike the US Treasury printing an unlimited supply of bills, the Ravens are essentially no longer in the PSL business. The PSL allotment has been sold out for years -- you can only buy one of a handfull of the annual recycled PSLs (confiscated due to failure to maintain the account or for repeated unruly behavior) from the Ravens at the value that they claim. That value has no effect on the marketplace. If you are offering your PSL for a realistic market value of $2,500 and the Ravens raised their PSL listing from $2,000 to $3,000, your PSL would still be "worth" $2,500.

Unless the economy were to seriously tank (in which case you may not want to "invest" in PSLs anyway), I would be surprised to see much movement of the PSL list. Are the years, or even decades, spent waiting for them to fall into your lap at the artificial "face value", perhaps at an undesirable location, really worth the "savings"?

[HoustonRaven]

Careful T, that kind of logical clear-headed thinking gets you mocked from some.

;)

[Galen Sevinne]

"Face value" is really an inappropriate term when discussing PSLs. Unlike the US Treasury printing an unlimited supply of bills, the Ravens are essentially no longer in the PSL business. The PSL allotment has been sold out for years -- you can only buy one of a handfull of the annual recycled PSLs (confiscated due to failure to maintain the account or for repeated unruly behavior) from the Ravens at the value that they claim. That value has no effect on the marketplace. If you are offering your PSL for a realistic market value of $2,500 and the Ravens raised their PSL listing from $2,000 to $3,000, your PSL would still be "worth" $2,500.

Unless the economy were to seriously tank (in which case you may not want to "invest" in PSLs anyway), I would be surprised to see much movement of the PSL list. Are the years, or even decades, spent waiting for them to fall into your lap at the artificial "face value", perhaps at an undesirable location, really worth the "savings"?

The best scenario in which you will see PSL movement is if the Ravens go through somehthing like the O's have for the past 10 years. I think it took about 4 horrendous seasons for O's tickets to start being available at face value or even less in the public market. I just don't see that happening with the Ravens and the way the NFL is structured - at least currently. The Ravens are going to have losing seasons here and there but I think the organization is too well run to tank like the O's have.

If I wanted PSL's I wouldn't wait around for years and years but would start making craiglist people offers. I would be more willing to pay a premium to get the tickets now then pay a premium to wait.

[sdeclue]

I'm looking to PSL's in the upper deck along the sideline around the goaline. Can someone tell me what the face value is for one of these PSL's as well as the face value for one ticket to a game in these seats? Thanks.

[psuasskicker]

I'm looking to PSL's in the upper deck along the sideline around the goaline. Can someone tell me what the face value is for one of these PSL's as well as the face value for one ticket to a game in these seats? Thanks.

I only took a minute floating through baltimoreravens.com but it looks like they may have taken down face value on the PSLs? It's probably there...check around for it.

I wanna say uppers in the corner were something like $500/PSL face or so, but I may be way off on that assessment...

- C -

[sdeclue]

I only took a minute floating through baltimoreravens.com but it looks like they may have taken down face value on the PSLs? It's probably there...check around for it.

I wanna say uppers in the corner were something like $500/PSL face or so, but I may be way off on that assessment...

- C -

Maybe the better way for me to say it is, what do you think is a good price for those PSL's?

[HoustonRaven]

Maybe the better way for me to say it is, what do you think is a good price for those PSL's?

http://ravens.seasonticketrights.com/

[sdeclue]

http://ravens.seasonticketrights.com/

That's actually the site I'm looking at. I found four seats for $8,000 in section 504, row 11. That's what I'm eyeing up.

[HoustonRaven]

That's actually the site I'm looking at. I found four seats for $8,000 in section 504, row 11. That's what I'm eyeing up.

I had 2 uppers in 523 I sold for $7,000. That was 3 years ago though.

[sdeclue]

I had 2 uppers in 523 I sold for $7,000. That was 3 years ago though.

Wow, that seems like a pretty great deal then, although I guess the bump down in prices is pretty reflective of the economic troubles that have hit almost exactly after you sold your tickets.