Any McNair apologists still out there?

[Mista T]

This is what we got for $33 million? :229031_confused2: A "whopping" 49.9 rating, two picks, against a mediocre Colts defense. He blew on two potential TD passes to Heap that would have reversed the game. ralph: This loss is squarely on McNair's shoulders. Sorry - no more excuses: after we emptied our warchest, we expected playoff calibre performances. Trent Dilfer, Elvis Grbac, even Anthony fuckin' Wright outperformed this bozo in the playoffs.

On top of that, we may not now be able to afford to keep Adalius.

I say: cut our losses, dump his salary now, eat the rest of his signing bonus. Let's build for the future. We are going nowhere behind an 82 rated QB who chokes in playoffs games.

:thumbdown:

[Bez513]

T...granted he sucked major ass tonight but he alone won us a few games this year. We need to draft out QB of the future and have McNair tutor him.

[sailorsam]

McNair had the bye week to rest and, as far as I know, had no injuries. so wha happened?
next year? Start the best available qb, whether McNair, Boller, Olson, or whomever's on the Free Agent market. It would be a shame to waste the last 2-3 good years from Jamal, Ray & Ogden waiting for a college guy to develop.
considering how many qbs have come & gone and how poor the Offense has consistently been, perhaps BB should hand the O over to Neuheisel and see what happens.

[ClericBlackDave]

Honestly, Boller should start in '07


If he was in today, I feel like at least we'd have had a chance.


McNair didn't seem to turn anything on in this game, besides the INTs.


It didn't even seem like he gave a fuck.

[ExiledRaven]

We have a year to get a young guy ready to go. ...so in '07 Mac9 will still be starting.

There is a chance to get a young guy in the draft and to work on Boller, then in '08 it's on to the new.

However, next year is the last chance for about 6-8 vets on the team

[festivus]

> It didn't even seem like he gave a fuck.
He never does. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. That is also why I don't think he'd be a great tutor, but just because he wouldn't be a good tutor doesn't mean we can't have a young & growing qb in our system.

[purplepoe]

LOL

Yea, we would've gone 13-3 and had a bye with Boller.

We lost.

McNair played like shit.

STFU and accept it.

PP

[Sephy]

LOL

Yea, we would've gone 13-3 and had a bye with Boller.

We lost.

McNair played like shit.

STFU and accept it.

PP

Agreed. It is puzzling how a guy can play so good for 13 games, and so poor for 3.

[General Lee 01]

i can't believe some of you want boller in there instead of mac 9. if we would have won the game, you'd all be calling him the savior of the team like everyone did when we were winning during the season. it's startin to sound like a redskins board in here, stop all the whinin. we lost, it sucks, but you can't put the game on one player. mcnair will be back next year and we'll have a helluva season, stop all the cryin and bitchin.

[purplepoe]

Spoken like a true Steeler fan!!

You accept it....Our O has been terrible since Billick got here. You accept it. You want to sleep with Billick go ahead. He has sucked and so has McNair. Mental midgets! With you that makes three

So tell me something.

What was your opinion of this offense from the time Billick took over the play calling until tonight?

Did you not like the 9 wins in 10 games we ripped off?

Or was that just the defense doing it?

You're the fuckin mental midget.

Tell me, who's the savior QB and coach?

PP

[purplepoe]

what sucks is we beat ourselves, the Colts did not beat us. That falls on the head coach!

I'll use a quote from someone else.

Which play was Billick's worst?

1. Heaps fumble.
2. McNair's first INT
3. McNair's 2nd INT


Just be quiet, OK?

PP

[Sephy]

Pre-Billick:
181 yds, 63.0%
143 yds, 48.5%
264 yds, 56.1%
158 yds, 56.7%
165 yds, 58.8%

Post-Billick:
159 yds, 73.9%
245 yds, 67.7%
373 yds, 61.7%
236 yds, 70.6%
140 yds, 75.0%
227 yds, 60.5%
283 yds, 77.8%
256 yds, 67.7%
216 yds, 65.7%

While he's been accurate once the system was changed, he's generally been pedestrian.

What this tells me is:
1) Playcalling matters a LOT.
2) We need a real QB that can lead this team for the future. McNair's stats aren't going to magically improve.

[RavensNTerps]

Manning didn't play much better than McNair today, his team just won the game...

It's an if's and but's game...

McNair, as a whole package over the course of an entire season is better than Boller, clearly. Yet, in one game, he is capable of being pure shit...we've seen it a few times (including Oakland, San Diego until the last drive and Cleveland).

Perhaps Boller would have given us a better chance to win today, btu remember McNair was getting pressured left and right...all Boller would have done, IMO, is been sacked 5 more times, and thrown an extra pick. But who knows.

[Sephy]

Manning didn't play much better than McNair today, his team just won the game...

It's an if's and but's game...

McNair, as a whole package over the course of an entire season is better than Boller, clearly. Yet, in one game, he is capable of being pure shit...we've seen it a few times (including Oakland, San Diego until the last drive and Cleveland).

Perhaps Boller would have given us a better chance to win today, btu remember McNair was getting pressured left and right...all Boller would have done, IMO, is been sacked 5 more times, and thrown an extra pick. But who knows.

Timing, the running game, and the playcalling. Made all the difference. With how well Jamal ran today, you have to put most of it on timing and playcalling.

[festivus]

Timing, the running game, and the playcalling. Made all the difference. With how well Jamal ran today, you have to put most of it on timing and playcalling.

We had 4 turnovers. Blaming the head coach is absurd.

He did not call in the "Heap fumble" play, or any of the "bad interception" plays.

[FHRaven]

Agreed. It is puzzling how a guy can play so good for 13 games, and so poor for 3.

The problem is he didn't play great for 13 of those games. He was average to poor in many. His inability to throw down field at this point in his career is a playoff killer.

The turnovers that several of us pointed out would be a problem came true as well.

[RustonRifle]

I'm still a huge McNair fan given the other options at QB and the Ravens don't owe McNair 33 million. I guess people throw that figure out there to try and strengthing their argument. The Ravens are on the hook for 3 years at 20 million. Complaing about Mcnair at QB when all you have is Boller in the chute is akin to complaining about driving a '75 Corvette Stingray when your other option is a '74 AMC Pacer. :insane:

[FHRaven]

I'm still a huge McNair fan given the other options at QB and the Ravens don't owe McNair 33 million. I guess people throw that figure out there to try and strengthing their argument. The Ravens are on the hook for 3 years at 20 million. Complaing about Mcnair at QB when all you have is Boller in the chute is akin to complaining about driving a '75 Corvette Stingray when your other option is a '74 AMC Pacer. :insane:

Please check the stats for both players this year and I think you'll see your analogy is very, very far off the mark.

[weirddave]

Perhaps Boller would have given us a better chance to win today, btu remember McNair was getting pressured left and right...all Boller would have done, IMO, is been sacked 5 more times, and thrown an extra pick. But who knows.

Or maybe he would have coolly sidestepped the blitz and thrown a long pass downfield for a TD like he did in the Cleveland game. I don't know, and I'm not saying that McNair shouldn't have been our QB this year or that 13-3 wasn't due in a large part to McNair's presence this year.


However, personally, I think Boller learned a LOT from McNair this year, and would like to see a totally open QB competition in TC next year. I really think that Kyle is ready to be a top notch NFL QB. He has the tools, and I think if morons who call themselves "fans" would stop attacking him for not being perfect and giving him his due when he deserves it, along with a little fucking support for the QB of what they claim is their football team, he'd be OK mentally too. This is his 4th year, which is when most QBs bloom. He's finally had a year of learning from a veteran. 5 out of his last 6 game's he's looked SB caliber. I think he can do it.

[Sports Steve]

I think after all the fans have a chance to let their emotions calm down. Yes McNair had a bad day. However a Heap fumble early set the tone. The bad call by the refs that Reed was out of bounds on the INT. LOOK THINGS DIDN'T GO WELL BUT THE OL WAS OFF ALSO AND THE RUNNING GAME NEVER REALLY GOT STARTED. We had a great season and we made the playoffs. For now McNair is still our answer until Kyle gets better or we get another QB.

Be safe to everyone in the off season and please still show your RAVENS pride.



SPORTS STEVE

:jester: :jester:

[Mista T]

You don't like $33 million? Sorry, but that's the amount of his contract. About a $7 million cap hit. Spin it any way you want: we are stuck with his multi-million cap hit for 2007, for the NFL's 14th ranked QB.


Complaing about Mcnair at QB when all you have is Boller in the chute is akin to complaining about driving a '75 Corvette Stingray when your other option is a '74 AMC Pacer. :insane:

The more correct analogy would be driving your broken down '56 Edsel, running on its last cylinder and ready for the scrap heap, to a new electric car that has potential to take you places, but hasn't been adequately tested.

[Holden McGroin]

You know what else is absurd? Throwing the ball from shotgun at the 5 yard line. They have the WORST run D in the league. If Jamal doesn't get in, we at least get a chance for 3, and somewhat boosts the players confidence. That first McNair pick set the tone for the whole game. They went down that field for nothing.

Also, WTF was Billick thinking throwing the damn ball on 1st and 2nd down, when we were down by only 6 at that point??? Our run game was doing well, and he basically ran the offense like Fassel! Jamal was doing well against their defense, so why not continue? Stick to what works. The passing game DIDN'T WORK.

[RustonRifle]

You don't like $33 million? Sorry, but that's the amount of his contract. About a $7 million cap hit. Spin it any way you want: we are stuck with his multi-million cap hit for 2007, for the NFL's 14th ranked QB.
.


I try and deal with facts. It's 32 million BTW.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2478265



The contract signed by quarterback Steve McNair with the Baltimore Ravens is for five years with a maximum value of $32 million, but from a practical standpoint, the deal for the former Tennessee Titans star is structured more as a three-year contract that will pay him $20 million.

Even if the Ravens were to keep McNair around for 5 years at 32 million it's a better deal than Kyle Boller at 5 years -20 million plus a first and second round draft pick.

Steve Young made a point early in the year. "Once a quarterback gets 30 starts in this league you see what you're going to get". I'd agree but you don't have to. :069:


What's next, the Ravens owe Jamal Lewis 26 million?:thumbup: It's all good T.:patriot:

[UKRavenStockers]

Even if the Ravens were to keep McNair around for 5 years at 32 million it's a better deal than Kyle Boller at 5 years -20 million plus a first and second round draft pick.

That's the one thing that really bugs me when people bring that up, we gave up a 1st and 2nd rounder to get a first round selection. Consequently the net loss was a 2nd rounder, not a 1st and 2nd rounder as some would have you believe.

[POPSinPA]

I tried to tell everyone McNair is a heartbreaker, but was shouted down.
Just another example of why he was and still is a loser.
Takes you to the edge and leaves you hanging.

sad

[RustonRifle]

I look at it as Vince Wilfork (2004 first) and a 2003 second round pick to acquire Boller but like any thing there's many ways to look at it.

I have confidence in the front office to get this straight.

[RavensNTerps]

I agree, about Boller.

I also agree that had he started the game and literally the game went the same exact way (same plays called, passes thrown, and all in all just Boller in there instead of McNair)...that he probably would have been physically attacked on his way out of the stadium.

There is a double standard.

That being said...if there was ever a type of game when Boller would have struggled mightily, it was this one...there was pressure on every passing down.

McNair really has struggled most of the year. Most of us noticed it against Cleveland and San Diego despite winning those 2 games.

When he is bad, he's really really bad.

[ravenwoman]

It's going to be interesting to see what the Ravens do in the off season. They can take 1 of 2 approaches:

1. Try to keep the team intact as much as possible and try one more time next year (like they did in 2001).

2. Slowly dismantle the team by not signing Jamal Lewis, getting rid of Samari Rolle and other high priced aged players.

Since we did not advance further in the playoffs, one has to wonder if this team has it to go all the way. Obviously at 13-3 we are a good team. Are we good enough?

[52RAYVENS]

This is what we got for $33 million? :229031_confused2: A "whopping" 49.9 rating, two picks, against a mediocre Colts defense. He blew on two potential TD passes to Heap that would have reversed the game. ralph: This loss is squarely on McNair's shoulders. Sorry - no more excuses: after we emptied our warchest, we expected playoff calibre performances. Trent Dilfer, Elvis Grbac, even Anthony fuckin' Wright outperformed this bozo in the playoffs.

On top of that, we may not now be able to afford to keep Adalius.

I say: cut our losses, dump his salary now, eat the rest of his signing bonus. Let's build for the future. We are going nowhere behind an 82 rated QB who chokes in playoffs games.

:thumbdown:

T, You're a DUMBFUCK!!!!:laugh: You've shit on McNair all season. We would never have made it this far with your boyfriend Boller and you fucken know it!!!!:insane:

Later!

[Mista T]

T, You're a DUMBFUCK!!!!:laugh: You've shit on McNair all season. We would never have made it this far with your boyfriend Boller and you fucken know it!!!!:insane:

Later!


Nice ... did you graduate from the School of Thugs? Just because I never had my nose so far up McNair's ass like some other Ravens fans to be blinded by the hype, and correctly assessed that we were overpaying for an average & aging player .... your best comeback is that I have Boller as a boyfriend. :eyes:

Very, very weak. :laugh:

So, outside of name calling, why don't you tell us what a great job McNair did yesterday? Or, how McNair's "strong" arm got us the 13 wins, not our Defense? Or how you have the scoop that he's going to renegotiate his outlandish contract so we can we can keep our Defense intact. Or, that his 14th ranking in the NFL doesn't mean anything because he's got all the "intangibles", which almost won us the game yesterday. :rolling:

Or, is there anything positive you can state about McNair's performance yesterday with a straight face? I can't. It was the predominant reason why we lost.

[RustonRifle]

renegotiate his outlandish contract

Do you really think McNair's contract is "outlandish"?

I've compiled some dollar figures on 2006 salaries. I used 000 in place of the hundreds part of the salary to save time.

Vick--------------23,102,000
Hasselbeck--------19,005,000
Brady-------------15,654,000
Farve-------------9,500,000
Roethlisberger----9,498,000
Eli Manning-------9,305,000
Brees-------------8,082,000
Plummer-----------7,630,000
Mcnair------------7,501,000
Culpepper---------7,042,000
Rivers------------6,934,000
Collins-----------6,022,000
Brooks------------5,750,000
Delhomme----------5,665,000
Carr--------------5,504,000
Green-------------5,000,000
Losman------------4,481,000
Warner------------4,004,000
Bledsoe-----------4,004,000
McNabb------------4,001,000
Palmer------------3,750,000
Smith-------------3,500,000
P.Manning---------668,000- Surely backloaded for cap relief. Incase anyone wonders where Peyton is.


If you look at the QB's that signed last season , although I would have liked to seen Mac perform better. I think the Ravens got what they paid for .
Sometimes statistics don't complete the picture. The Ravens to a man will tell you how much Mac has meant to the team. Atleast from what I've heard.

[Sephy]

Sometimes statistics don't complete the picture. The Ravens to a man will tell you how much Mac has meant to the team. Atleast from what I've heard.

There's no doubt about this at least. I even saw McAlister with a McNair Touch of Class t-shirt on during the pre-game interviews.

[4G63]

i can't believe some of you want boller in there instead of mac 9. if we would have won the game, you'd all be calling him the savior of the team like everyone did when we were winning during the season. it's startin to sound like a redskins board in here, stop all the whinin. we lost, it sucks, but you can't put the game on one player. mcnair will be back next year and we'll have a helluva season, stop all the cryin and bitchin.

Agreed...he had a shitty game. McNair gets 50% of the blame and Billick gets the other 50. He abandoned the run too early (Jamal looked pretty good last night) and fell into Indy's lap with all the passing into cover 2. If Clayton didn't drop that ball around the 20 yd line, we might not be bitching at all!

[psuasskicker]

Nurse:
Which is exactly why Shanahan made the switch to Cutler, because Plummer could not get the job done when it counted

Comparing McNair with Plummer is ridiculously stupid.

T:
You don't like $33 million? Sorry, but that's the amount of his contract. About a $7 million cap hit. Spin it any way you want: we are stuck with his multi-million cap hit for 2007, for the NFL's 14th ranked QB.

A side-note on RustonRifle's post. I dunno where you got your numbers, and I only actually looked up McNair's, but his is way wrong. His '06 salary was $1MM, not $7.5MM.
http://www.nflpa.org/Resources/ActivePlayerSearch.aspx?id=22523

His salary is $3MM next year, then $4MM, then $6MM the last two.

His bonus was $11MM, for the five year deal. That's $2.2MM per year in cap hits. Next year, his cap hit will be $5.2MM, out of a cap that'll be around $105MM.

If we cut him, we get the $3MM salary off the cap, but accelorate the entire remaining bonus amount. That's an $8.8MM cap hit. For those less mathematically inclined, it's $3.5MM more of a cap hit to cut him than to keep him.

If you cut him after the Jun 1 (or is it July?) deadline, you get his $2.2MM cap hit this year and dump his salary, but the $6.6MM goes onto next year when you don't have him anymore. You save his $3MM salary hit this year though.

In '08, his cap hit would be $6.2MM if we keep him, $6.6MM if we cut him, and if we cut him after the deadline we'd only have $4.4MM hit us in '09.

That's the reality of the cap hits we take with and without McNair over the next two seasons...no spin allowed.

My personal feelings would be that I'd hope we draft a QB (Troy Smith late in the second or third round would be nice), and keep McNair around for another year or two to groom him.

- C -

[4G63]

Let it go...that was years ago. We have already absorbed that loss. Now we are going to have to absorb McNair financially. Maybe Cleveland wants him with Jamal.

I wouldn't mind that if we could do something to get JeMarcus Russell out of LSU...he will be very good for some team in the NFL!

[psuasskicker]

FYI, I just looked up the salary caps:
http://www.nflpa.org/cba/cba_pdf/Article_XXIV_Guaranteed_League-Wide_Salary,_Salary_Cap,_and_Minimum_Team_Salary.pdf

'07 - $109MM
'08 and beyond is unset as of now.

Keeping McNair next year, his cap his is less than 5% of our total cap space. Not a burden at all, for a QB that took us to a 13-3 record.

- C -

[StingerNLG]

.... your best comeback is that I have Boller as a boyfriend.

You gotta remember T, when it comes to Boller and these guys, anything you say that doesn't call him names or talk about him like you want him dead; and you're automatically his boyfriend. It's all they have.

[highwater]

Listen up! McNair had a very solid regular season, but in the biggest game of the year, he came up very small. No ifs, ands or buts about it. In a playoff game, he sucked, plain and simple.

That doesn't mean I don't want him back next year, but like T has been saying all along, he's not worth the price we are paying.

[RustonRifle]

PSU, I got my salary info off of Foxsports. I assumed it was yearly salary plus signing bonus.

Here it is if you or anyone else wants to look around.


http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/teamSalary?categoryId=67065

[sailorsam]

George Allen's theory was that, you start the best qb you can get your hands on. Right now the Ravens have 3 options, McNair, Boller & Olsen. FA signing and/or draft is a possiblity; trade less likely.
IMHO, McNair is our starter cuz he's the best we could get our hands on. He sure worked out better than Kerry Collins or Dante Culpepper.
dang, I think Boller would be fine if he'd be less anxious and stop tripping twice every game. He wants it too bad, while McNair seems to sleepwalk sometimes.
what FAs are available???

[Heap86]

I have supported McNair all year, but he sucked balls Saturday Night.

Of course the Team of Steve and Brian lost us the game.

Billick was running the Offense like he expected our Defense to shut Indy out, and McNair made bad decisions at the worst times.

I am pretty much still in shock over this.

And with the possible exit of both AD and JO, this is a sad, sad time to be a Ravens fan :(

[highwater]

I am pretty much still in shock over this.(

That pretty much sums up my feelings too. I can't believe we kept them out of the end zone and managed to lose. I can't believe we only scored six points. I can't believe we played what was probably our worst game of the year. Seriously, aside from the MNF game against Denver, did we play a game all year as bad as this? It wasn't all McNair's fault, but he sure picked a terribe time to have a bad game.

[ladyraven127]

Least we forget, Indy's defense has been built over the past few years to STOP McNair. He knew what was coming at him and I wonder how far in his head that team was. That, however does not excuse the fact that the play calling was crap and so was just about everything else on offense on Sat.

Blech . . . . what a bummer :bag:

[ClericBlackDave]

The playcalling was fine by me. I saw McNair miss Demetrius Williams wide open quite a few times. Mason once or twice, also.


McNair was afraid to challenge them deep, for whatever reason. There were deeper routes getting run.


McNair was locking onto primary recievers and forcing the ball there.


If we're going to do that, put Boller in. He has the stronger arm to force things in, and overall, I think he'd want to win more.


McNair already has his legacy. At least Boller would have been out to carve his own, good or bad.


When I see the bears stick with Grossman and win that game, thats what I wish Baltimore would do and Baltimore fans would support.


Grossman made his mistakes that game, but also put up points.


I would have taken a Grossman/Boller like effort of 55% passing with 2 TDs and 2 INTs over what McNair gave us any day.


Same reason Shanahan went with Cutler. Cutler makes the mistakes, but at elast puts up points.


McNair's inability to throw the deep ball, or his hesistance to, is a dealbreaker for me at this point.

[PurpleRulz]

The playcalling was fine by me. I saw McNair miss Demetrius Williams wide open quite a few times. Mason once or twice, also.


McNair was afraid to challenge them deep, for whatever reason. There were deeper routes getting run.


McNair was locking onto primary recievers and forcing the ball there.


If we're going to do that, put Boller in. He has the stronger arm to force things in, and overall, I think he'd want to win more.


McNair already has his legacy. At least Boller would have been out to carve his own, good or bad.


When I see the bears stick with Grossman and win that game, thats what I wish Baltimore would do and Baltimore fans would support.


Grossman made his mistakes that game, but also put up points.


I would have taken a Grossman/Boller like effort of 55% passing with 2 TDs and 2 INTs over what McNair gave us any day.


Same reason Shanahan went with Cutler. Cutler makes the mistakes, but at elast puts up points.


McNair's inability to throw the deep ball, or his hesistance to, is a dealbreaker for me at this point.

This is sloppy logic for two reasons.

1. We don't have Jay Cutler. We have Kyle Boller. Boller is not a third the QB that Cutler will become.

2. Denver made the switch and did they make the playoffs? I did not think so.

[B-more Ravor]

Post-Billick:
159 yds, 73.9%
245 yds, 67.7%
373 yds, 61.7%
236 yds, 70.6%
140 yds, 75.0%
227 yds, 60.5%
283 yds, 77.8%
256 yds, 67.7%
216 yds, 65.7%

While he's been accurate once the system was changed, he's generally been pedestrian.


It's interesting how you left out the QB ratings for those games. His rating was over 94 after the Bye. He had 11 TDs and 5 INTs after the Bye. That's certainly better than pedestrian. His yardage wasn't great during some games, but then again, they often weren't throwing the ball much in the 2nd half of some games this year (159 - NO, 140 - Pitts).

Once he become acclimated and once Billick took over the playcalling, he played very well. Yes, he was awful on Sat, but let's not let that one game cloud our judgment.

[purplepoe]

QB ratings mean nothing...throwing a INT in Denver in the endzone means something...so does the INT Sat in the endzone while double covered....Boller gets ripped for that throw..McNair gets a pass

McNair won more road games (6) this season than Boller has won (5) in his career.

PP

[B-more Ravor]

QB ratings mean nothing...

Yeah, you're right, that's why the NFL uses it as a stat to measure QB performance. Now, we can argue whether it is the truest measure of a QB, but it since applies to all QB, then as a point of reference, a 94 QB rating is very solid.

Look no one is saying that he had a good game on Sat, but he DID have a good year. Period.

BTW, you keep pointing to two INTs but those didn't happen in a vacuum. He had plenty of good play as well. Were you complaining about him then?


...so does the INT Sat in the endzone while double covered....Boller gets ripped for that throw..McNair gets a pass

Hmm, I haven't seen ANYONE give him a pass for EITHER of those throws?!?!?

I'm certainly not - he stunk on Sat - but that doesn't mean that he shouldn't be back as a starter next year. It was a bad time to have a bad game - no doubt - but that doesn't change the fact that he played well over the last 2/3 of the season.

[Sephy]

It's interesting how you left out the QB ratings for those games. His rating was over 94 after the Bye. He had 11 TDs and 5 INTs after the Bye. That's certainly better than pedestrian. His yardage wasn't great during some games, but then again, they often weren't throwing the ball much in the 2nd half of some games this year (159 - NO, 140 - Pitts).

Once he become acclimated and once Billick took over the playcalling, he played very well. Yes, he was awful on Sat, but let's not let that one game cloud our judgment.

Well, it was decent. My point was that aside from a few games, it was nothing that teams with a decent QB ooh and aah over. QB rating isn't really all that necessary when you can look at the raw numbers.

[B-more Ravor]

Well, it was decent. My point was that aside from a few games, it was nothing that teams with a decent QB ooh and aah over. QB rating isn't really all that necessary when you can look at the raw numbers.

No, perhaps not, but he was efficient and with the way this team has been built, he's a good fit. He did what he was asked to do and for most of the season, he did it well.

And, had he played on Sat to that level, we'd be talking about our upcoming home game this Sunday. As I basically said in another post, one bad last game definitely leaves a bad taste, but that doesn't change what happened before it.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

You knew this was coming as soon as we lost.

Some people hyped themselves so much about this last game that they felt entitled and that this Ravens team was practically ordained to win.

How in the hell were we so much better than a team that had one stinkin more loss than us with a tougher schedule? Our running game has been mediocre/bad all year against bad run defenses, but everybody wanted to turn a blind eye to that. While everybody was shitting their pants about the completely undisciplined and overrated Bengals (for all their recent praise, they have had one winning season since Marvin has been there), the Colts were virtually a carbon copy...only with more and better offensive weapons, more discipline and a better coach and slightly worse run defense (but much better against the pass).

McNair stunk, no if and's or but's about it, but some of these threads and comments about us cutting him or having him compete with Boller are just making me :grbac:

We are not cutting McNair, there will be no competition and Boller is likely on his way out of the door after next year with us drafting a young QB to groom unless some extreme circumstance arises. This team will revolt if they turn their back on a guy who gave this offense as much productivity as we've seen here because of 2 bad games everybody wants to bitch about. The numbers don't lie...if we got the production out of McNair and the offense after Fassell was fired for all 16 games, we have the number 7 ranked offense...without a consistant/effeciant running game.

Some of the things I've read are baffling. I've read some people actually say that you combat a cover 2 by throwing deep. WTF...are you kidding me? The cover 2 is designed to primarily take AWAY the deep passes by dropping the safeties...and in the Tampa 2 that Indy runs, the MLB deep. You beat the Colts defense by running the ball...something that we strangely abandoned when we got it working well...not launching bombs. I've heard people calling for Billick to get fired (who didn't know that was coming either). I even heard one guy actually complain about the defense!

Look, we all are upset and frustrated, but take a deep breath and realize that nobody but the biggest homers thought we would have had the season that we had. We have a lot to look forward to...IMHO, all we have to do is find a way to get the Running game averaging over 4 ypc again consistantly and we are back in the thick of things next year.

[FHRaven]

You knew this was coming as soon as we lost.

Some people hyped themselves so much about this last game that they felt entitled and that this Ravens team was practically ordained to win.

How in the hell were we so much better than a team that had one stinkin more loss than us with a tougher schedule? Our running game has been mediocre/bad all year against bad run defenses, but everybody wanted to turn a blind eye to that. While everybody was shitting their pants about the completely undisciplined and overrated Bengals (for all their recent praise, they have had one winning season since Marvin has been there), the Colts were virtually a carbon copy...only with more and better offensive weapons, more discipline and a better coach and slightly worse run defense (but much better against the pass).

McNair stunk, no if and's or but's about it, but some of these threads and comments about us cutting him or having him compete with Boller are just making me :grbac:

We are not cutting McNair, there will be no competition and Boller is likely on his way out of the door after next year with us drafting a young QB to groom unless some extreme circumstance arises. This team will revolt if they turn their back on a guy who gave this offense as much productivity as we've seen here because of 2 bad games everybody wants to bitch about. The numbers don't lie...if we got the production out of McNair and the offense after Fassell was fired for all 16 games, we have the number 7 ranked offense...without a consistant/effeciant running game.

Some of the things I've read are baffling. I've read some people actually say that you combat a cover 2 by throwing deep. WTF...are you kidding me? The cover 2 is designed to primarily take AWAY the deep passes by dropping the safeties...and in the Tampa 2 that Indy runs, the MLB deep. You beat the Colts defense by running the ball...something that we strangely abandoned when we got it working well...not launching bombs. I've heard people calling for Billick to get fired (who didn't know that was coming either). I even heard one guy actually complain about the defense!

Look, we all are upset and frustrated, but take a deep breath and realize that nobody but the biggest homers thought we would have had the season that we had. We have a lot to look forward to...IMHO, all we have to do is find a way to get the Running game averaging over 4 ypc again consistantly and we are back in the thick of things next year.

Quit making sense!! ;) We're all still venting!! :mad:

[Losac]

You knew this was coming as soon as we lost.

Some people hyped themselves so much about this last game that they felt entitled and that this Ravens team was practically ordained to win.

How in the hell were we so much better than a team that had one stinkin more loss than us with a tougher schedule? Our running game has been mediocre/bad all year against bad run defenses, but everybody wanted to turn a blind eye to that. While everybody was shitting their pants about the completely undisciplined and overrated Bengals (for all their recent praise, they have had one winning season since Marvin has been there), the Colts were virtually a carbon copy...only with more and better offensive weapons, more discipline and a better coach and slightly worse run defense (but much better against the pass).

McNair stunk, no if and's or but's about it, but some of these threads and comments about us cutting him or having him compete with Boller are just making me :grbac:

We are not cutting McNair, there will be no competition and Boller is likely on his way out of the door after next year with us drafting a young QB to groom unless some extreme circumstance arises. This team will revolt if they turn their back on a guy who gave this offense as much productivity as we've seen here because of 2 bad games everybody wants to bitch about. The numbers don't lie...if we got the production out of McNair and the offense after Fassell was fired for all 16 games, we have the number 7 ranked offense...without a consistant/effeciant running game.

Some of the things I've read are baffling. I've read some people actually say that you combat a cover 2 by throwing deep. WTF...are you kidding me? The cover 2 is designed to primarily take AWAY the deep passes by dropping the safeties...and in the Tampa 2 that Indy runs, the MLB deep. You beat the Colts defense by running the ball...something that we strangely abandoned when we got it working well...not launching bombs. I've heard people calling for Billick to get fired (who didn't know that was coming either). I even heard one guy actually complain about the defense!

Look, we all are upset and frustrated, but take a deep breath and realize that nobody but the biggest homers thought we would have had the season that we had. We have a lot to look forward to...IMHO, all we have to do is find a way to get the Running game averaging over 4 ypc again consistantly and we are back in the thick of things next year.

Very good post, RaveninWoodlawn.

[Sephy]

If I were the Ravens, this is what I'd tell McNair to do:
1) Go get whatever surgeries, rehab, whatever done this offseason.
2) STUDY THE COVER 2 UNTIL YOUR EYES BLEED.

More and more teams are going to put the cover 2 on the Ravens if McNair can't play it.

[section553]

Amazing how many of you just dont see the big picture. With out McNair we never would have had the chance to be in that game.

[52RAYVENS]

Amazing how many of you just dont see the big picture. With out McNair we never would have had the chance to be in that game.


:iagree:

[deuce]

I purposely waited a few days to post on this thread because of the negative feelings about the game. RaveninWoodlawn hit it right on. I for one cant wait to see McNair next year with a full offseason working with this offense. He was everthing I hoped he would be this year (minus Saturday of course) and stayed healthy to boot. Props to Mac9.

[highwater]

I He was everthing I hoped he would be this year (minus Saturday of course) and stayed healthy to boot. Props to Mac9.

Umm, the only problem there is you can't subtract Saturday from the season! McNair had a solid year but in the most important game of the season, he laid an egg, plain and simple. And I thought that's why he was brought here, to win these types of games.

Look, I like the guy, I'm glad he's here, but even he would admit he sucked in this game, so let's stop making excuses for him.

[festivus]

If I were the Ravens, this is what I'd tell McNair to do:
2) STUDY THE COVER 2 UNTIL YOUR EYES BLEED.

More and more teams are going to put the cover 2 on the Ravens if McNair can't play it.

Either that or something similarly passive, if they don't have the personnel for the Cover 2.

That said we shouldn't have anything to fear *if* the FO finds a way to fix the running game with the right personnel moves (or non-moves).

It seems like every year someone or other steps up unexpectedly and I find myself thinking, how could the FO possibly have known how well this would turn out. This year it seemed like just about everything from Steve McNair to Adam Terry & Trevor Pryce to Dawan Landry.

This offseason I hope Ozzie points the magic wand at our running game.

[Canuckofithaca]

gonna sound absurd, but in the big picture, how much does one season of football matter in our lives?

[skaybaltimore]

gonna sound absurd, but in the big picture, how much does one season of football matter in our lives?Well, let's see how it might have impacted Brian Billick's career. A coach with TWO SB's is almost guaranteed a ticket to the HOF. A coach with ONE SB victory...hmmmmmmmmm...

GO RAVENS!!!

[skaybaltimore]

Umm, the only problem there is you can't subtract Saturday from the season! McNair had a solid year but in the most important game of the season, he laid an egg, plain and simple. And I thought that's why he was brought here, to win these types of games.

Look, I like the guy, I'm glad he's here, but even he would admit he sucked in this game, so let's stop making excuses for him.RACK IT!

[xKingLewis52x]

i can't believe some of you want boller in there instead of mac 9. if we would have won the game, you'd all be calling him the savior of the team like everyone did when we were winning during the season. it's startin to sound like a redskins board in here, stop all the whinin. we lost, it sucks, but you can't put the game on one player. mcnair will be back next year and we'll have a helluva season, stop all the cryin and bitchin.

i was thinkin the same. why would anybody on god's green earth want, boller in instead of Air McNair? yeah we blew it, but we had a great season non the less, expect steve 2 bounce back and have another solid season with the ravens. :thumbup:

[Art-Florida]

i was thinkin the same. why would anybody on god's green earth want, boller in instead of Air McNair? yeah we blew it, but we had a great season non the less, expect steve 2 bounce back and have another solid season with the ravens. :thumbup:


Read any of the 900 threads about quarterback posted on this board, or any other Ravens board to find out.

A lot of people have a lot of reasons.

[xKingLewis52x]

Read any of the 900 threads about quarterback posted on this board, or any other Ravens board to find out.

A lot of people have a lot of reasons.

yeah i did, a couple of them but not all of them 2 many. lol

[skaybaltimore]

There were a couple of times this year that I thought KB should have been brought in -- the Thursday night Cinci game in particular -- but I did NOT think he should have been brought into the Indy game. I honestly expected SM to drive down and score a TD after he got the ball back with about 9 minutes to go and the score 6-12. Unfortunately, it didn't work out. But as far as I'm concerned, SM did earn the right to keep control of the reigns to try to win it like he'd won a lot of other games earlier this year. Despite the fact that he had a lousy game, I don't think he ought to be thrown under the bus.

(As far as how to respond to the 7 years of "Billickball", that's another matter entirely.)

GO RAVENS!!!

[Mobtown]

QBs have bad games. T, I think that you are more interested in feeling self-righteous (I told you so!) than winning football games.

[Mobtown]

Nurse:

T:

A side-note on RustonRifle's post. I dunno where you got your numbers, and I only actually looked up McNair's, but his is way wrong. His '06 salary was $1MM, not $7.5MM.
http://www.nflpa.org/Resources/ActivePlayerSearch.aspx?id=22523

His salary is $3MM next year, then $4MM, then $6MM the last two.

His bonus was $11MM, for the five year deal. That's $2.2MM per year in cap hits. Next year, his cap hit will be $5.2MM, out of a cap that'll be around $105MM.

If we cut him, we get the $3MM salary off the cap, but accelorate the entire remaining bonus amount. That's an $8.8MM cap hit. For those less mathematically inclined, it's $3.5MM more of a cap hit to cut him than to keep him.

If you cut him after the Jun 1 (or is it July?) deadline, you get his $2.2MM cap hit this year and dump his salary, but the $6.6MM goes onto next year when you don't have him anymore. You save his $3MM salary hit this year though.

In '08, his cap hit would be $6.2MM if we keep him, $6.6MM if we cut him, and if we cut him after the deadline we'd only have $4.4MM hit us in '09.

That's the reality of the cap hits we take with and without McNair over the next two seasons...no spin allowed.

My personal feelings would be that I'd hope we draft a QB (Troy Smith late in the second or third round would be nice), and keep McNair around for another year or two to groom him.

- C -

Don't bother trying to explain the #s to T, he either doesn't understand or simply chooses to ignore them in favor of "big impact" number like 33m.

[skaybaltimore]

No doubt that Mac had a bad day, but to discount the Indy D (which played great) and poor (2 fumbles?!) receiver play just shows how biased and irrational you are.
QBs have bad games. T, I think that you are more interested in feeling self-righteous (I told you so!) than winning football games.Oh, so in this thread you agree SM had a bad day, but in the other thread you want to lay it on the Indy D and the receivers. Are you so schzo you can't make up your mind?

GO RAVENS!!!

[Mobtown]

Oh, so in this thread you agree SM had a bad day, but in the other thread you want to lay it on the Indy D and the receivers. Are you so schzo you can't make up your mind?

It's not about making up my mind. It's about accepting that it's not an either/or situation. You and some others want to say that the problem is Billick or Mac but you seem unwilling to see that there were other problems in that game. Like the fact that normally sure handed receivers Clayton and Heap had bad days, or that the Indy D had an outstanding day, or that the breaks which had gone our way all year long went the other way.

I am not giving Billick or Mac a pass, but some of you want to ignore the other factors because they are not convenient to your broken record arguments against Mac and Billick. THAT is irrational.

[skaybaltimore]

It's not about making up my mind. It's about accepting that it's not an either/or situation. You and some others want to say that the problem is Billick or Mac but you seem unwilling to see that there were other problems in that game. Like the fact that normally sure handed receivers Clayton and Heap had bad days, or that the Indy D had an outstanding day, or that the breaks which had gone our way all year long went the other way.

I am not giving Billick or Mac a pass, but some of you want to ignore the other factors because they are not convenient to your broken record arguments against Mac and Billick. THAT is irrational.No, it's not "rational", it's rationalizing. The TWO MAIN CULPRITS in the loss are clearly McNair AND Billick. Period. Are there OTHER factors that go on in a game? OF COURSE. But they're SO FAR DOWN THE RUNG they don't even factor in, aside from some people like you using them in a lame attempt at rationalization.

You're seriously going to level a charge at HEAP? You can't even be serious, man. You ought to be run effin out of town for such a stupid effin statement! And the same for Clayton. The onus lies squarely on McNair and Billick. Straight up; anything after that is window dressing, the proof of which is if EITHER McNAIR or BILLICK had done what they were supposed to do -- and are being paid a lot of money to do -- we would have at least MADE A COMPETITIVE GAME OUT OF IT! And because THEY didn't, WE didn't. And if you'd open your eyes, you'd see that THIS IS A PATTERN for Billick, just like it's a pattern for Schottenheimer.

And speaking of Schottenheimer, for all of you who keep chanting the "13-3" mantra as "proof" of why it would have been a no-brainer to automatically bring him back next year, Schottenheimer was 14-2, and in THAT organization it did NOT guarantee that he'd be back! They held meetings to DISCUSS whether or not he'd be back next year. And while the desicion was made TO bring him back, it was anything BUT a gimme. So obviously, the W/L record at the end of a year DOES NOT guarantee a coach's return -- not in the real world, anyway.

GO RAVENS!!!

[Mobtown]

No, it's not "rational", it's rationalizing. The TWO MAIN CULPRITS in the loss are clearly McNair AND Billick. Period. Are there OTHER factors that go on in a game? OF COURSE. But they're SO FAR DOWN THE RUNG they don't even factor in, aside from some people like you using them in a lame attempt at rationalization.

LOL, so only certain factors are given credence? Thank you for proving my point Skay. :thumbup:


You're seriously going to level a charge at HEAP? You can't even be serious, man. You ought to be run effin out of town for such a stupid effin statement! And the same for Clayton. The onus lies squarely on McNair and Billick. Straight up; anything after that is window dressing, the proof of which is if EITHER McNAIR or BILLICK had done what they were supposed to do -- and are being paid a lot of money to do -- we would have at least MADE A COMPETITIVE GAME OUT OF IT! And because THEY didn't, WE didn't. And if you'd open your eyes, you'd see that THIS IS A PATTERN for Billick, just like it's a pattern for Schottenheimer.

Please get over yourself kid and do not pressume to tell me how to be a fan. :thumbdown:

[skaybaltimore]

Please get over yourself kid and do not pressume to tell me how to be a fan. :thumbdown:Fan? Heheheheh. Any Ravens fan willing to throw Todd Heap under the bus makes Kenskin look like a winner.

:thumbup:

GO RAVENS!!!

[copenhaggard]

You're seriously going to level a charge at HEAP? You can't even be serious, man. You ought to be run effin out of town for such a stupid effin statement! And the same for Clayton. The onus lies squarely on McNair and Billick.

GO RAVENS!!!


I hate to piss on your parade, but McNair/Billick didn't fumble. Okay, say what you want about the gameplan/QB play, but those fumbles were not part of the gameplan, and McNair didn't fumble those balls.

Turnovers make a "puzzling" gameplan look even worse than it was. Turnovers by other skill players make McNair's bad day even worse. I can't tell you what would've happened if Clayton/Heap didn't fumble, but you can't pin those on McNair/Billick, and those 2 turnovers contributed to half of our offense turnovers, and at least an automatic 3 points from INDY, not to mention huge momentum losses.

Carry on...


Fan? Heheheheh. Any Ravens fan willing to throw Todd Heap under the bus makes Kenskin look like a winner.

:thumbup:

GO RAVENS!!!

So exactly what is the difference between Todd Heap and McNair/Billick? All are members of the Baltimore Ravens. No one is throwing anyone under the bus, besides maybe YOU.

I do like the comparison to Kenskin though, because pointing out turnovers by other players really makes you less of a fan.

Carry on...

[dbcw]

Anyone calling for Boller over McNair is absolutely absurd. With McNair as our starting QB we compiled the best win-loss record in team history. While Boller is a good kid who wants to do well, he has a weak psyche who cannot perform at a high level consistently.

People want to complain about McNair who in his first year with the Ravens and their offensive system ranked 14th among starting QBs. Let us not forget how poorly Boller ranked after his much longer tenure. For anyone to state that Boller is the better QB is, in my opinion, showing favoritism towards him.

At the QB position, McNair gives the Ravens the best chance to win. He isn't perfect, but he is the best we have period.

[festivus]

Anyone calling for Boller over McNair is absolutely absurd.

With McNair as our starting QB we compiled the best win-loss record in team history.
Agreed.


While Boller is a good kid who wants to do well, he has a weak psyche who cannot perform at a high level consistently.
No. Most of his career he has been burdened with (a) inferior protection and (b) inferior receivers. A dubious burden for any quarterback. He did not seem to have a psyche problem in the Carolina game; he came in and played well, overcoming his early stumbles with confidence and good passes. I would think someone with a 'weak psyche' would stumble once and collapse after some setback.


People want to complain about McNair who in his first year with the Ravens and their offensive system ranked 14th among starting QBs. Let us not forget how poorly Boller ranked after his much longer tenure. For anyone to state that Boller is the better QB is, in my opinion, showing favoritism towards him.
Or ignorance. :)


At the QB position, McNair gives the Ravens the best chance to win. He isn't perfect, but he is the best we have period.
Absolutely.

But I firmly disagree with you about Boller's 'weak psyche.' Among his other virtues is the virtue of toughness.

[Mobtown]

Agreed.

But I firmly disagree with you about Boller's 'weak psyche.' Among his other virtues is the virtue of toughness.

Totally agree. You can say alot of things about Boller, but "weak" is not one of them. Inconsistant, uncoordinated, poor decision maker...but definately not weak.

[dbcw]

In reference to Boller's "weak psyche", I am implying that opposing defenses can get in his head and force him to make mistakes. Fear and nervousness seems to be written all over his face. Very rarely have I seen a calm, cool, and collected look on Boller's face when he was our starter. Without trying to sound insulting (even though I am sure some will take it that way while other exploit it), his game demeanor in the past reminded me of my ex-girlfriend's chihuahua. Always nervous and rarely confident. I don't like painting him that way because I really like him, but it's just what I am reminded of when I would watch him play.

Is Boller tough? Most definitely.

Does Boller have what it takes mentally to win a lot of games for the Ravens? I don't believe so.

Could he have beat the Colts? No.

[festivus]

> I am so sick of hearing about
I am sorry Tex. I didn't mean to sound like a broken record.

[skaybaltimore]

His play this season consisted of a 1-1 home record against two lessor teams.:rolleyes:Yep...it pales by comparison to SM's 0-1 at home in the playoffs, doesn't it?

GO RAVENS!!!

[copenhaggard]

I am sorry Tex. I didn't mean to sound like a broken record.


:rolling:

I hope that was sarcasm, because NO ONE should be apologizing to Tex about being a broken record....

[festivus]

> I am so sick of hearing about
I am sorry Tex. I didn't mean to sound like a broken record.

Copenhaggard, what I should have written was:

I am sorry Tex. I didn't mean to sound like a broken record. :eyes:

That's what I meant. :) It's all in the eyes.

[skaybaltimore]

The legend of Kyle Boller lives on. He' was a two game wonder in 2006 just like he was the year before.:rolleyes:But Tex...what's McNair's legend going to be after his game against Indy?

GO RAVENS!!!

[Baltoman07]

I don't know if Boller is more confident in himself but I'm more confident in him than I've been in the past. When he fumbled the snap and on the next play he threw a pick vs the Browns, I thought he might fold like an accordian. Instead, he brushed himself off, and threw a 77 yd TD to D. Williams. I've seen Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch and Jeff Blake and others that fold, point fingers and sometimes cry after things go sour. That's one thing McNair and Boller have in common, they both are tough S.O.B.'s.

[festivus]

:iagree:

Welcome to the board, Baltoman.

[FHRaven]

Tex, still being a freaking coward and ignoring my question? Pathetic. :laugh:

[FHRaven]

I have no idea what quesiton you are talking about. I won't back down from an argument with anyone, anytime, or anywhere. Apparently you don't know me very well do you?:mad: So bring it on buddy. Shoot me your question, I must have missed it, if indeed you are accurate that you even asked it.


Nice. Wrong as usual, but nice. I already posted 3 times in the "One and Done" thread I believe. Each time you replied to one of my posts you conveniently ignored that part. If you don't have the ability to scroll through a thread I can't help you.

[FadeToBlack]

Boller sucks. The whole world knows it, except us apparently. The ones who've seen him suck the most.

[StingerNLG]

Boller sucks. The whole world knows it, except us apparently. The ones who've seen him suck the most.


Then why are there hints that Carolina is interested in him? Apparently "the whole world" doesn't think he sucks.

I bet Phil Savage would snag him the minute his contract ended here.

[FadeToBlack]

Carolina still thinks Boller sucks, I can assure you they have no intentions of replacing Jake Delhomme as their starter. In fact they probably want to give Chris Weinke some competition after that horrible performance he had in Delhomme's absence. I'm sure you were aware of that debacle.

But regardless of what Carolina thinks or doesn't think, the fact of the matter is Boller does suck and we're really splitting hairs here. He sucked so much Ozzie did something about it and signed Steve McNair, who has taken the Ravens to a 13-4 record and big wins against the NFL's elite teams. Playoff loss or not, he's the best thing that has happened to the Ravens since their Super Bowl victory and we (90% of Ravens fans) would probably agree.

As for Phil Savage, I agree. He has signed every reject from our team, why would he buck the trend now?

[StingerNLG]

Oh that's right. Steve McNair all by himself took the entire team to a 13-4 record.

Fuck Boller vs. Cleveland
Fuck the #1 defense in the league
Oh, and sure as hell fuck Matt Stover.

These guys didn't do shit for this team. Absolutely amazing.

Oh, and I forgot. McNair wasn't brought in to win piddly playoff games or take us to a Super Bowl. He was just signed here to make some of the fanbase happy.

Yeah, rock on. 13-3. That makes me feel great watching the Colts and the Patriots play for the AFC Championship tomorrow. All of a sudden it not being the Ravens playing tomorrow doesn't really matter to me. Thanks!

[FadeToBlack]

You make it a team issue when the Ravens go 13-4 but make it a McNair issue for why the Ravens didn't get to the AFC title game. What a surprise. Big Ben would have more credibility teaching a safe driving course.

And for the record, McNair is not just a catalyst for the 13-4 record, but the catalyst. He is the single biggest reason you even had a team to cheer for last week. Even our defense isn't good enough to overcome getting Bollered for 17 straight weeks. And you know it.

[skaybaltimore]

Oh that's right. Steve McNair all by himself took the entire team to a 13-4 record.

Fuck Boller vs. Cleveland
Fuck the #1 defense in the league
Oh, and sure as hell fuck Matt Stover.

These guys didn't do shit for this team. Absolutely amazing.

Oh, and I forgot. McNair wasn't brought in to win piddly playoff games or take us to a Super Bowl. He was just signed here to make some of the fanbase happy.

Yeah, rock on. 13-3. That makes me feel great watching the Colts and the Patriots play for the AFC Championship tomorrow. All of a sudden it not being the Ravens playing tomorrow doesn't really matter to me. Thanks!Yep. That pretty much nails it for me.

:thumbup:

GO RAVENS!!!

[Baltoman07]

Three nationally televised games for Mcnair...Denver, Cincinatti, and the Colts. Big time players make big time plays in big time games. McNair was horrible, like he was afraid to throw anything but a 3 yard pass. He looked tight and played tighted. I can't say if Boller would have done any better, nobody knows, but he could have made it a more wide open offense. I know that the Colts may have had more scoring chances if Boller screwed up, but I rather go down fighting than go down playing safe all game.

[purplepoe]

Three nationally televised games for Mcnair...Denver, Cincinatti, and the Colts. Big time players make big time plays in big time games. McNair was horrible, like he was afraid to throw anything but a 3 yard pass. He looked tight and played tighted. I can't say if Boller would have done any better, nobody knows, but he could have made it a more wide open offense. I know that the Colts may have had more scoring chances if Boller screwed up, but I rather go down fighting than go down playing safe all game.

So now we judge the performance of our QB on the nationally televised games?

How about this. When those games count more than the regionally televised 1pm games, let me know. OK?

O, and also let me know when you want to acknowledge Heaps's costly fumble as well as Clayton's.

Thanks.

PP

[purplepoe]

Oh that's right. Steve McNair all by himself took the entire team to a 13-4 record.

Fuck Boller vs. Cleveland
Fuck the #1 defense in the league
Oh, and sure as hell fuck Matt Stover.

These guys didn't do shit for this team. Absolutely amazing.

Oh, and I forgot. McNair wasn't brought in to win piddly playoff games or take us to a Super Bowl. He was just signed here to make some of the fanbase happy.

Yeah, rock on. 13-3. That makes me feel great watching the Colts and the Patriots play for the AFC Championship tomorrow. All of a sudden it not being the Ravens playing tomorrow doesn't really matter to me. Thanks!


Stinger, what's amazing is that you seem to want to find every reason NOT to give McNair credit for the regular season. The guy was an key part of our success. This was a team effort, not just Stover and the D. Were they important as well? Absolutely. This team had lost 11 straight road games coming into the season. We went 6-2 on the road. You don't do that on defense and kicking alone. Im still trying to figure out where you come up with the idea that people are saying "yea, fuck Boller, the D, and Stover". Because I've seen nothing of the sort.

Where have the "McNair" supporters said that they are happy that he played like crap a week ago? I haven't seen it. I was there and yes, he played like crap. But that certainly doesn't change a 13-3 regular season.

Watching the Pats play the Colts for a Super Bowl birth is gut wrenching. But I damn well feel better about a 13-3 season as opposed to something like a 7-9 season.

For all the times that I've heard you talk about dropped passes and others letting Boller done when he's had a bad game, you certainly don't bring up Heap and Clayton's crucial fumbles very often.

We had a franchise best regular season record this year. I believe the credit for that should be spread around to a ton of different people and units.

PP

[Baltoman07]

[QUOTE=purplepoe;28010]So now we judge the performance of our QB on the nationally televised games?

How about this. When those games count more than the regionally televised 1pm games, let me know.

Thanks.

Ok....yes, I do judge performance under pressure whether it's an athlete or porno-star. [/FONT][/I]

[purplepoe]

Ok....yes, I do judge performance under pressure whether it's an athlete or porno-star. [/FONT][/I]

The guy has led teams to 2 AFC Championships and a Super Bowl.

But yea, Im sure it was the "pressure" of an October MNF game in Denver that got to him:rolleyes:

PP

[Baltoman07]

I would hate to see McNair's stats and QB rating in those 3 national games. Maybe it wasn't the pressure...but there is a difference. To what do you attribute the poor performances to?

[skaybaltimore]

What's amazing to me is how a few people have wormed their way into this board to the extent that they use it as their own personal bully pulpit to attack individuals versus discussing topics, and apparently either the mods have no idea what to do about it, or else are complicit in it. Either way, this board has become almost useless as far as fostering dynamic discussions; it's only real purpose is to fine tune smack repertoires.

GO RAVENS!!!

[purplepoe]

What's amazing to me is how a few people have wormed their way into this board to the extent that they use it as their own personal bully pulpit to attack individuals versus discussing topics, and apparently either the mods have no idea what to do about it, or else are complicit in it. Either way, this board has become almost useless as far as fostering dynamic discussions; it's only real purpose is to fine tune smack repertoires.

GO RAVENS!!!

:rolling:

PP

[skaybaltimore]

Right on cue.

GO RAVENS!!!

[Hook]

Where have the "McNair" supporters said that they are happy that he played like crap a week ago? I haven't seen it. I was there and yes, he played like crap. But that certainly doesn't change a 13-3 regular season.

Watching the Pats play the Colts for a Super Bowl birth is gut wrenching. But I damn well feel better about a 13-3 season as opposed to something like a 7-9 season.



The 13-3 season is useless now. We could have been 8-8 with a one and done playoff appearance the difference 8-8 wouldn't have hurt as bad. Look nobody is saying mcnair didn't do great during the regular season. sure he did, and I tip my hat to him but a 13-3 season is nothing to marvel at when you are sitting at home watching teams with lesser records playing to get into the super bowl. Steve was brought in here to get to the playoffs and beyond. As for this one game against the colts I firmly believe that boller could have won this game at home especially given his record at home. Steve Killed our chances and was brought in-- and paid handsomely-- to get us to the next level. His past indicates he can't win the big games. F him lets move forward and lets give a boller a chance if he can unseat McDummy this coming preseason..

[copenhaggard]

What's amazing to me is how a few people have wormed their way into this board to the extent that they use it as their own personal bully pulpit to attack individuals versus discussing topics, and apparently either the mods have no idea what to do about it, or else are complicit in it. Either way, this board has become almost useless as far as fostering dynamic discussions; it's only real purpose is to fine tune smack repertoires.

GO RAVENS!!!


By "dynamic discussions", do you mean the same Billick/McNair arguement brought up in any semi-relevent thread?

Then of course questioning everyone else's intelligence because we don't fully agree.

Yeah, I'll say you bring quite the dynamic discussions to the board.

Remember this gem: "You're seriously going to level a charge at HEAP? You can't even be serious, man. You ought to be run effin out of town for such a stupid effin statement! And the same for Clayton."

So the poster you're talking to was a bad fan/etc because they blamed part of the offensive failures on Heap/Clayton when 1/2 of the turnovers were they're fault. I see that using this forum as their "own personal bully pulpit to attack individuals versus discussing topics" doesn't apply to you...

[skaybaltimore]

As long as Brian Billick is pulling the strings of the offense, and as long as our offense struggles, it remains a relevant issue, to the extent that it doesn't matter WHO the QB is -- if BB is NOT able to let go -- which he has shown repeatedly he is NOT (unless we have a lead -- you have to be able to read between the lines of some of our successes this year) -- we're in the same soup year in and year out. So we can debate McNair v Boller til the cows come home -- what's become clear to me this year is that the weak link is Billick. And for some reason, people here can't seem to discuss criticisms of Billick without launching personal attacks on the posters expressing that criticism.

And the epitome of hypocrisy is that the pulpit bully posters here don't seem to see anything wrong with THEIR repetitive ad nauseam posts, while at the same time pointing the finger at others they accuse of posting repetitively.

GO RAVENS!!!

[copenhaggard]

And the epitome of hypocrisy is that the pulpit bully posters here don't seem to see anything wrong with THEIR repetitive ad nauseam posts, while at the same time pointing the finger at others they accuse of posting repetitively.

GO RAVENS!!!



:rolling:

'nuff said.

You're right, I don't see anything wrong at all, because I don't have to. You kick your own ass everytime you try to go on a "holier-than thou" tangent. It's like you are trying to make yourself look worse. How about sticking to football posts, it's fun to argue those, because at least then you don't fall flat on your face before you even press the "Submit Post" button.

[StingerNLG]

Stinger, what's amazing is that you seem to want to find every reason NOT to give McNair credit for the regular season. The guy was an key part of our success. This was a team effort, not just Stover and the D. Were they important as well? Absolutely. This team had lost 11 straight road games coming into the season. We went 6-2 on the road. You don't do that on defense and kicking alone. Im still trying to figure out where you come up with the idea that people are saying "yea, fuck Boller, the D, and Stover". Because I've seen nothing of the sort.

No, no, no, no, no.

I've acknowledge McNair as part of this team. It's this bullshit of McNair being the sole reason this team is 13-5 when it is an outright lie.

And if you don't see it, you're not reading. Let me quote FTB again for you:

"And for the record, McNair is not just a catalyst for the 13-4 record, but the catalyst. He is the single biggest reason you even had a team to cheer for last week."

"...Steve McNair, who has taken the Ravens to a 13-4 record ...."

That's just one person. I have Tex on ignore but just look at his signature.

So yeah PP, people do think that way. And it's simple ignorance not to see it or understand that people are doing it.

BTW, without that #1 defense, Trevor Pryce maybe doesn't get on the field in special teams to block what could be a game winning FG and we're 12-4. If Boller doesn't win the Cleveland game, we not only don't clinch playoffs that week but we're then 11-5. Matt Stover doesn't kick 52 yards in Cleveland, we lose that game and are 10-6 and we split with the BROWNS.

So while McNair was a great addition to the game, it's bullshit that he single-handedly "took this team" to 13-3, and anyone who says that is full of that same shit.

[purplepoe]

No, no, no, no, no.

I've acknowledge McNair as part of this team. It's this bullshit of McNair being the sole reason this team is 13-5 when it is an outright lie.

And if you don't see it, you're not reading. Let me quote FTB again for you:

"And for the record, McNair is not just a catalyst for the 13-4 record, but the catalyst. He is the single biggest reason you even had a team to cheer for last week."

"...Steve McNair, who has taken the Ravens to a 13-4 record ...."

That's just one person. I have Tex on ignore but just look at his signature.

So yeah PP, people do think that way. And it's simple ignorance not to see it or understand that people are doing it.

BTW, without that #1 defense, Trevor Pryce maybe doesn't get on the field in special teams to block what could be a game winning FG and we're 12-4. If Boller doesn't win the Cleveland game, we not only don't clinch playoffs that week but we're then 11-5. Matt Stover doesn't kick 52 yards in Cleveland, we lose that game and are 10-6 and we split with the BROWNS.

So while McNair was a great addition to the game, it's bullshit that he single-handedly "took this team" to 13-3, and anyone who says that is full of that same shit.


1. I don't even read Tex's posts. I'm pretty sure most don't take him all that seriously.

2. You named other ONE poster who supports your claim. Where are all the other people that are shouting that McNair is the sole reason we were 13-3. You and I have had discussions for over a year now and you know how I felt about the need to replace Boller with McNair. I haven't once given McNair a pass for how he played vs. the Colts. And how many more have thrown McNair under the bus and said we were 13-3 despite him? Certainly more than one.

3. Please tell me you aren't throwing the word ignorant at me around when people on messageboards and on the radio are calling for the guy's head.

And that's the crux of the argument. People want to pin everything on one person or unit and that's just ridiculous.

Yes, McNair played like shit vs. the Colts. However, the results of the game were also undeniably altered by the 2 extremely costly fumbles. So while everyone seems to be assessing blame on just Billick or just McNair, I choose to look at the whole picture.

The shoe just seems to be on the other foot now.

PP

[ClericBlackDave]

While the game was altered by Fumbles, I can understand fumbling when you're hit sometimes. Its happens.


Throwing INTs when I dont see pressure in your face, or don't see a sack coming, i.e. unforced errors, was what really killed this game for us, IMHO.


But I'll agree with Stinger's point that really, the idea that McNair was the sole reason for a 13-4 season is a falacy. The team was, and there were large plays made by a number of players not named McNair that contributed.


In New Orleans, I don't think we win unless the defense gets those two pick-6's. We saw how close they made it the 2nd half.


At home against Cinci, that game could be a Loss if Mike Smith doesn't force that fumble and Musa Smith recovers it.


The Matt Stover FG in cleveland


The blocked FG in Tenessee


There are plenty more examples.

[purplepoe]

While the game was altered by Fumbles, I can understand fumbling when you're hit sometimes. Its happens.


Throwing INTs when I dont see pressure in your face, or don't see a sack coming, i.e. unforced errors, was what really killed this game for us, IMHO.


But I'll agree with Stinger's point that really, the idea that McNair was the sole reason for a 13-4 season is a falacy. The team was, and there were large plays made by a number of players not named McNair that contributed.


In New Orleans, I don't think we win unless the defense gets those two pick-6's. We saw how close they made it the 2nd half.


At home against Cinci, that game could be a Loss if Mike Smith doesn't force that fumble and Musa Smith recovers it.


The Matt Stover FG in cleveland


The blocked FG in Tenessee


There are plenty more examples.


Isn't it amazing how some people are now finding any way they can to give credit for wins to anyone but the QB.

Funny how that works.

PP

[skaybaltimore]

You seem to find humor in a lot of posts, PP. (mainly the ones you don't agree with). The only problem with that is that this post season was anything BUT funny. So keep yourself amused all you want -- I don't know too many people other than about 4 here who find you -- or the situation -- amusing at all. Your Jr High School sophomoroic mentality has dragged this board down to the point of uselessness.

GO RAVENS!!!

[StingerNLG]

1. I don't even read Tex's posts. I'm pretty sure most don't take him all that seriously.

2. You named other ONE poster who supports your claim. Where are all the other people that are shouting that McNair is the sole reason we were 13-3. You and I have had discussions for over a year now and you know how I felt about the need to replace Boller with McNair. I haven't once given McNair a pass for how he played vs. the Colts. And how many more have thrown McNair under the bus and said we were 13-3 despite him? Certainly more than one.

3. Please tell me you aren't throwing the word ignorant at me around when people on messageboards and on the radio are calling for the guy's head.

And that's the crux of the argument. People want to pin everything on one person or unit and that's just ridiculous.

Yes, McNair played like shit vs. the Colts. However, the results of the game were also undeniably altered by the 2 extremely costly fumbles. So while everyone seems to be assessing blame on just Billick or just McNair, I choose to look at the whole picture.

The shoe just seems to be on the other foot now.

PP


1) So what? Not reading his posts doesn't mean he's not saying it. Just means you're ignoring it. I think you're ignoring a LOT of people that are saying exactly what he and FTB are saying.

2) I named ONE because well......he's being vocal about it in this thread. I bet if I started checking YBR again right now I could pick out another 2-3 dozen people who seem to feel that way. Hell, I don't read YBR but I'm sure Blackraven and spikewhateverhisnameis are right on that bandwagon.

3) Damn right I used that word. If someone is niave enough to believe this sediment doesn't exist listening to the radio or reading messageboards, it's a state of absolute denial.

Some of US look at the whole picture. But that whole picture doesn't fit some people's agenda, so they choose to look at one person or unit. I don't remember though you passing blame around for last year's season.



Yes, McNair played like shit vs. the Colts. However, the results of the game were also undeniably altered by the 2 extremely costly fumbles. So while everyone seems to be assessing blame on just Billick or just McNair, I choose to look at the whole picture.

BY THE WAY, I don't remember you seeing the whole picture last year when the Ravens ended the year at Cleveland. The results of that game were undeniably altered by costly drops, a touchdown nullifying penalty, and a costly penalty at the end of the game. But all you focused on IIRC is one throw Boller missed at the end of the game. That wasn't very big picture back then. Just an observation.

Isn't it amazing how some people are now finding any way they can to give credit for wins to anyone but the QB.

Sounds exactly like 2004, and every other time Boller won a game doesn't it. :rolleyes:

[festivus]

Originally Posted by skaybaltimore

And the epitome of hypocrisy is that the pulpit bully posters here don't seem to see anything wrong with THEIR repetitive ad nauseam posts, while at the same time pointing the finger at others they accuse of posting repetitively.
'nuff said.

:rolling:

:rolling: Moi? :grbac:

Ad nauseum maybe. But not repetitive. :D

[skaybaltimore]

:rolling: Moi? :grbac:

Ad nauseum maybe. But not repetitive. :DYet another moron heard from.

GO RAVENS!!!

[festivus]

Nice. Back to the name calling. Real slick, from someone who calls others "sophomoric."

It turns out just about everyone's a moron but you, Skay, it must be very painful for you to suffer through all these idiots trying to explain things to you.

[skaybaltimore]

Nice. Back to the name calling. Real slick, from someone who calls others "sophomoric."

It turns out just about everyone's a moron but you, Skay, it must be very painful for you to suffer through all these idiots trying to explain things to you.No moron...there are actually some very intelligent posters here. It's a shame that idiots like you and your little group have f*cked up this site beyond recognition.

GO RAVENS!!!

[Ravens0587]

actually skay it's you

[skaybaltimore]

actually skay it's youGo fuck yourself, asshole.

GO RAVENS!!!

[copenhaggard]

No moron...there are actually some very intelligent posters here. It's a shame that idiots like you and your little group have f*cked up this site beyond recognition.

GO RAVENS!!!

Skay,

Not to piss on your parade, but check the join date of the majority of posters in the "little group who fucked up this site", and then look at yours. Yeah, there's been some hostility here, some conflicting opinions, but these threads are starting to get downright ugly, and isn't it a coincidence that you're right in middle, often talking to everyone that doesn't agree with you in some sort of condescending manner, calling anyone that doesn't agree with you one dimensional, etc, etc...

It almost seems like you're inviting hostility everytime you post. It was the same way on crayon forum (I'll give darb72 credit for the phrase), you made a big splash in 2 months, and now you trot about all the boards telling everyone about how your shit doesn't stink.

It's funny how you acknowledge everyone's got an opinion, yet they're all wrong except for ones that take the same side as yours.

[skaybaltimore]

Skay,

Not to piss on your parade, but check the join date of the majority of posters in the "little group who fucked up this site", and then look at yours. Yeah, there's been some hostility here, some conflicting opinions, but these threads are starting to get downright ugly, and isn't it a coincidence that you're right in middle, often talking to everyone that doesn't agree with you in some sort of condescending manner, calling anyone that doesn't agree with you one dimensional, etc, etc... Fuck your condescending label fuckwad. You're the most condescending mother fucker I've ever met. And yeah...I DO call fucking assholes fucking assholes straight up, while others might be more diplomatic. But I've seen enough posts here -- AND at YBR -- to see that at least there people can get different points of view across with some semblance of civility. Here, it's a fucking zoo.

GO RAVENS!!!

[festivus]

Skay I would *welcome* someone with your point of view to this board, who posted as often and aggressively as you. Your opinions are actually pretty common among people who I talk to about football.

What is too bad is that the way you conduct yourself turns everyone, including me, off.

Oh well, in a way it's my loss, but mostly it's yours.

[skaybaltimore]

Skay I would *welcome* someone with your point of view to this board, who posted as often and aggressively as you. Your opinions are actually pretty common among people who I talk to about football.

What is too bad is that the way you conduct yourself turns everyone, including me, off.

Oh well, in a way it's my loss, but mostly it's yours.LOL. You're one of the leaders of the pack, asshole. Your posts are not only misinformed when it comes to football reality, but the way you express them isn't even worth the bandwidth it takes to post them.

GO RAVENS!!!

[copenhaggard]

Fuck your condescending label fuckwad. You're the most condescending mother fucker I've ever met. And yeah...I DO call fucking assholes fucking assholes straight up, while others might be more diplomatic. But I've seen enough posts here -- AND at YBR -- to see that at least there people can get different points of view across with some semblance of civility. Here, it's a fucking zoo.

GO RAVENS!!!


:rolling:

Ahhhh, I always have enjoyed a nice melt.

I do like your example of civility though...

Really, what else is there to say here?



Your posts are not only misinformed when it comes to football reality, but the way you express them isn't even worth the bandwidth it takes to post them.


:rolling:

Keep um coming...

[festivus]

LOL. You're one of the leaders of the pack, asshole. Your posts are not only misinformed when it comes to football reality, but the way you express them isn't even worth the bandwidth it takes to post them.

*Sigh*. I don't mind being corrected, I *want* people to correct me. Like you, I just hope for good manners.

Go ahead and take the last word, I'm giving up.

[dbcw]

The amount of negative lobbying by posters against Steve McNair is ridiculous. It has been obvious to everyone in Baltimore and the nation that McNair is perhaps the biggest contributor to the Ravens' success. He brought leadership and ability to a position that was not producing with Kyle Boller. Granted, football is the ultimate team game where no single person can win a game on his own. That being said, McNair did the best job by any QB since Brian Billick has been the head coach.

Kyle Boller has been a disappointment for the Ravens and to their fans. With the exception of several spectacular games, Kyle Boller has never shown the consistent ability to be a leader or difference maker for the Ravens. If Boller is the better QB, he will start next year over McNair. But I doubt he possesses the gamesmanship to out compete McNair. Not many QBs do.

[52RAYVENS]

LOL. You're one of the leaders of the pack, asshole. Your posts are not only misinformed when it comes to football reality, but the way you express them isn't even worth the bandwidth it takes to post them.

GO RAVENS!!!

skay, you're another dumbass who thinks he's a badass on the boards. OHHHH, I'm NOT scared. Thinks he knows everything. We should all have HIS oppionion, and if you don't your wrong! Go fuck yourself, skay.

Remember folks the ignore button is your friend!!!:thumbup:

[Mobtown]

Fuck your condescending label fuckwad. You're the most condescending mother fucker I've ever met. And yeah...I DO call fucking assholes fucking assholes straight up, while others might be more diplomatic. But I've seen enough posts here -- AND at YBR -- to see that at least there people can get different points of view across with some semblance of civility. Here, it's a fucking zoo.

GO RAVENS!!!


Awesome. :thumbup:

http://www.thehorrordome.com/HDSHOPPINGPROPS/Prostetics/Melt.jpg

[festivus]

Mobtown, please take that picture of me out of that post.:)

[FadeToBlack]

No, no, no, no, no.

I've acknowledge McNair as part of this team. It's this bullshit of McNair being the sole reason this team is 13-5 when it is an outright lie.

And if you don't see it, you're not reading. Let me quote FTB again for you:

"And for the record, McNair is not just a catalyst for the 13-4 record, but the catalyst. He is the single biggest reason you even had a team to cheer for last week."

"...Steve McNair, who has taken the Ravens to a 13-4 record ...."

McNair was the biggest change our team made from a year ago. Suddenly when we signed McNair, the defense and the offensive line got magically better. And I firmly believe they got better because they knew their efforts would be rewarded with victories when they replaced Kyle Boller with a real quarterback.

[darb72]

Suddenly when we signed McNair, the defense and the offensive line got magically better.

Really? The offensive line magically improved once McNair got here?

This year under Fassell McNair was getting sacked every 16.5 attempts (10 sacks, 165 attempts).
Boller got sacked twice in 31 attempts, or every 15.5 attempts.

Now under Billick, McNair has been sacked every 56.5 attempts (4 sacks, 227 attempts)
Boller has been sacked once in 24 attempts.

I want to know Fade. Did your gut tell you that the offensive line got better at pass blocking or was it just a wild guess?

I really didn't mean to shoot more holes in you're argument, but honestly it's really easy and really fun.


And I firmly believe they got better because they knew their efforts would be rewarded with victories when they replaced Kyle Boller with a real quarterback.

And I firmly believe that I have the talent to win Dancing With the Stars. Guess what.

[FadeToBlack]

Now under Billick, McNair has been sacked every 56.5 attempts (4 sacks, 227 attempts)
Boller has been sacked once in 24 attempts.

Haven't taken a stats course, have you?

Ever heard of "margin of error"?

Yeah. :rolling:

[darb72]

Sure, but those stats are pretty much all we have to go on.

Ever heard of looking at the whole post? Care to tell me when the sacks started going down for McNair?

Here's a hint.
Don't bother asking your gut. It's even dumber than you are.

[52RAYVENS]

Here's a hint.
Don't bother asking your gut. It's even dumber than you are.

Is it your time of the month, darb? :rolleyes:

[darb72]

Nah, I just have very little respect for hypocrites.

[darb72]

??? I thought you were on my ignore list. ???

I'll answer your question if you can answer mine. When have I ever said Boller will be a good/great QB?

And just because I love proving how little you know in every one of these little talks, in regards to the whole "accuracy flaw, mastered blah blah blah "statement, you want to take a wild guess at what McSaviors completion percentage was after his first (roughly) 1,000 pass attempts?

Little hint for ya Skippy. Bollers is 3 tenths of a percentage lower.

Before you attempt to have a serious conversation with me, remember to be able to back up all your statements with facts. Thanks.

[ClericBlackDave]

Who cares what McNair's percentage was his first 1,000 pass attempts?


After that statement right there I almost wanted to shoot myself.


The point is that most players in the NFL follow a normal career arc. Most players have something to learn before being 100% sucessful in the league.


McNair improved over time, as will Boller I think, whether or not he's a starter or a backup.


Its only because he's a QB for a Baltimore team that he can't get a fair shake.


There are very few players, QB or not, that come in ready for how intense the NFL is and how much it is a thinking man's game. There is tons to learn.


So, when Darb refers to McNair's early completion percentage, its referring to the idea that he too evolved.


But in any case, its not suprising to me that a staunch McNair defender would decide to ignore stats and try to pull an arugment out of thin air or near pure conjecture.

[darb72]

Who cares what McNair's percentage was his first 1,000 pass attempts? Unless it was with the same receivers OL,Ravens offense and common opponents, that Boller was using it is totally irrelevant.
Care to look at this years numbers then?

Would that make it relevent?


Apparently, you don't like either Boller or McNair which is fine.
Actually I'm fairly ambivalent towards Boller. I refuse to make a call either way on the kid because I've seen what this team can do to a 4,000 yard passer.

I invite every one of you... people... to go back and look at the stats before Boller got here. Then blame everything on him.

[darb72]

I would ask if you could really be this stupid, but you've proven time and again that you can.

Ask one of your buddies to explain what I meant by "this years numbers".

I'm done talking to you.

[ClericBlackDave]

The problem with the internet is that who knows what age Tex Ritter is.


We could be talking to a 12 year old for all we know.


Or someone who is functionally a 12 year old, perhaps.


Its like when he posts is totally ignore the post he's responding to and make no attempt to try to comphehend and/or assimilate anything that been said.


Anytime your attempt to reference stats = "i know the stats on Boller suck" you know the level of complexity he is working on.


That said I think it'll be interesting next year to see what happens with this offense. At this point, if Mason stays, I have a gut feeling that he has a preference (that he can't admit) for Boller at QB. Regardless of stats, the game gets played on the field alhtough Boller's stats for like his last 10-12 games are decently impressive, despite Tex Ritters yearnings. It'll be interesting to see whether this pattern continues if he gets chances in relief of Mac9

[FHRaven]

I would ask if you could really be this stupid, but you've proven time and again that you can.

Ask one of your buddies to explain what I meant by "this years numbers".

I'm done talking to you.

It's the blackraven mode of defense. Ignore the questions, try to change the subject and hope no one notices. :thumbup:

So who's turn is it this week to slap Tex around? :rolling:

[dbcw]

Is there anyone in their right mind who wants Boller to start over McNair?

[ClericBlackDave]

Yes, there are some people. I am one of them (the few, maybe), after a putrid 170 yds and 2 INTs in a home playoff game where he has the crowd behind him and a week to rest.


Its like asking the question of whether there are any women out there who would prefer you over your like 50 or 60 year old dad.


And the answer would be yes. Yeah, while you dad probably makes more money than you, is a bit older looking and distinctive, far more calm and experience, perhaps he's past his prime? Physically, he can't do it anymore?


Maybe you want someone with potential that people can grow with?


Or maybe you just want someone who cares.


I've said it once and I'll say it again:


At the end of all this, Steve McNair retires a Tenessee Titan. End of story. His legacy doesn't depend on us, nor will it ever; He's in an elite club of mobile QBs who have passing stats and rushing stats AND W-L to back up his history.


I wouldn't mind someone in there who is hungy, and who can and will take the fucking shots down the field.

[purplepoe]

Yes, there are some people. I am one of them (the few, maybe), after a putrid 170 yds and 2 INTs in a home playoff game where he has the crowd behind him and a week to rest.


Its like asking the question of whether there are any women out there who would prefer you over your like 50 or 60 year old dad.


And the answer would be yes. Yeah, while you dad probably makes more money than you, is a bit older looking and distinctive, far more calm and experience, perhaps he's past his prime? Physically, he can't do it anymore?


Maybe you want someone with potential that people can grow with?


Or maybe you just want someone who cares.


I've said it once and I'll say it again:


At the end of all this, Steve McNair retires a Tenessee Titan. End of story. His legacy doesn't depend on us, nor will it ever; He's in an elite club of mobile QBs who have passing stats and rushing stats AND W-L to back up his history.


I wouldn't mind someone in there who is hungy, and who can and will take the fucking shots down the field.

:insane:

Ummm, nevermind.

PP

[ClericBlackDave]

PurplePoe, how do you explain away such a putrid game?


Additionally, it seems as though McNair has problem with Indianapolis / a Cover 2 scheme. Is that going to suddenly get better, being that he's only getting older and more geriatric day by day?


I mean, whatever. Writing off anything I say works in your mind, and thats ok.


But if I wanted to see 170 2 INTs and a Loss, I'd at least want to see that from the homegrown product, not the supposedly calm under pressure vet that was supposed to do better than that.


And, for the record, I don't think Boller would have performed like that. It would have been far more herky-jerky but far more explosive, like rex grossman for the bears.

[festivus]

PurplePoe, how do you explain away such a putrid game?
He had a bad game.



Additionally, it seems as though McNair has problem with Indianapolis / a Cover 2 scheme. Is that going to suddenly get better, being that he's only getting older and more geriatric day by day?
Yes, if our rushing attack is more effective.



But if I wanted to see 170 2 INTs and a Loss, I'd at least want to see that from the homegrown product, not the supposedly calm under pressure vet that was supposed to do better than that.
The Colts game was a perfect storm of bad games. 6 or 7 times out of 10, I think we would beat them even at a neutral site. Unfortunately we got bad games out of McNair and the receivers and (if the experts here & elsewhere are to be believed) Billick. It happens, and it's no *one person's* fault.



And, for the record, I don't think Boller would have performed like that. It would have been far more herky-jerky but far more explosive, like rex grossman for the bears.
Maybe. Maybe not. But McNair guided the Ravens to a 13-3 regular season record and was clearly the team leader on that side of the ball. Benching him would have been, to use PP's term, :insane: .

[ClericBlackDave]

Yes, if our rushing attack is more effective.


Jamal had about 50 or so yards on 10 carries, with some receptions to boot. I dont think the run game was the issues, unless you're looking for it to carry us ala LT nowadays or Jamal in 2003



He had a bad game.


That is not an explanation. As much as I'd like to give McNair a mulligan #1 I know if he had the exact same stats but was named Kyle Boller of a day he'd have been lynched that day and #2 It's far more than a bad day. 2 INTs on the way to score with NO TDs is unacceptable. Continually throwing to the covered man short of the 1st down marker is also unacceptable.


And that can't be all put on Billick / the gameplan because I was seeing men open over the top and on the outside for a while before he hit Clayton (and he fumbles) The gameplan dictates the primary recievers, and maybe they were before the sticks. But i saw routes ran past the sticks that were open and its a veteran QBs job to make those throws, NOT throw into double coverage.



The Colts game was a perfect storm of bad games. 6 or 7 times out of 10, I think we would beat them even at a neutral site.


Put down the purple kool-aide. McNair doesn't have a great record against the Colts. he actually has a track record of having trouble dealing with them. He also had a number of purtrid games this season that were covered up by the defense being so great. So lets not try to say that if we played it again we'd have better than a 50/50 chance to beat the Colts.


The game is played on the field.



But McNair guided the Ravens to a 13-3 regular season record and was clearly the team leader on that side of the ball


THe defense led us to the 13-3 records. If you look at the primary difference between this year and last year I think its 3 things, none of which are McNair


1) turnovers. Our defense couldn't get turnovers to save its life last year. And I think change/increase in turnovers comes down to the addition of Pryce and Ngata, and


2) Being healthy ON DEFENSE. Last year we were severely banged up. This year, besides the temporary loss of Ray, we were much better off, and had better depth


3) the O-line. Jason Brown is a starter for this team, as its chris chester. We'll see of Mulitalo, Vincent, and Flynn who's the odd man/men out. My guess is Flynn or Vincent or both



McNair had good games and bad games, and 2 great comebacks. I'm not saying he didn't contribute, but saying he "led us" to 13-3 . . . lets just say it was a team effort. If anyone "led us" to 13-3 it was the defense, and particularly the addition of Pryce and Ngata.

[darb72]

He had a bad game.
The loser choked. He choked when he got into the SuperBowl and he choked when we needed him.

Yes, if our rushing attack is more effective.
Why is it that the rushing game is an excuse for the McNair, but Boller is actually blamed for the poor rushing stats?

The Colts game was a perfect storm of bad games
It's amazing what can happen to a weak armed QB when the defense is designed to keep everything in front of them. McNair can't throw deep very often, and the Colts just tackled everybody that got the ball before we could get a first down.

McNairs lack of arm strength was the deciding factor in that game.

[purplepoe]

PurplePoe, how do you explain away such a putrid game?


Additionally, it seems as though McNair has problem with Indianapolis / a Cover 2 scheme. Is that going to suddenly get better, being that he's only getting older and more geriatric day by day?


I mean, whatever. Writing off anything I say works in your mind, and thats ok.


But if I wanted to see 170 2 INTs and a Loss, I'd at least want to see that from the homegrown product, not the supposedly calm under pressure vet that was supposed to do better than that.


And, for the record, I don't think Boller would have performed like that. It would have been far more herky-jerky but far more explosive, like rex grossman for the bears.


Sigh.

I don't explain away putrid games. He had a putrid game. Do you really want to get into explaining away putrid games? I think you know what Im talking about.

I write things off that you because you say things that are baffling. For instance


Its like asking the question of whether there are any women out there who would prefer you over your like 50 or 60 year old dad.


And the answer would be yes. Yeah, while you dad probably makes more money than you, is a bit older looking and distinctive, far more calm and experience, perhaps he's past his prime? Physically, he can't do it anymore?

Im not gonna try to disect your analogy. Let's just say I find it a bit off the mark.

This is the one that is just ridiculous.


Or maybe you just want someone who cares.

You have repeatedly called out McNair. You have done more than insinuate that he somehow didn't or doesn't care. I have pulled the quotes from after the game that clearly showed he was upset. It also showed him taking responsibility for his bad game. But you just go on slamming the guy with no evidence. None. O, well, it's what you feel.

And what is your fixation about this?


I've said it once and I'll say it again:


At the end of all this, Steve McNair retires a Tenessee Titan. End of story. His legacy doesn't depend on us, nor will it ever; He's in an elite club of mobile QBs who have passing stats and rushing stats AND W-L to back up his history.

So what if he played most of his career in Tennessee? As stated before, guys like Sharpe and Woodson played the majority of their careers on other teams. It didn't make them less hungry for a ring. Should we view those guys differently because they didn't play their whole careers here? Maybe you do. I don't. And by the way, in a piece on ESPN done during the last few weeks of the season about comeback QBs, McNair said this. "Coming to Baltimore has been the best thing to happen in my career." Why is it so important for you to point out that he will retire a Titan? Do you think he doesn't play as hard for the Ravens as he did the Titans? Because your comments are bordering on saying just that.

O wait, maybe you are saying it with this little gem.



I wouldn't mind someone in there who is hungy, and who can and will take the fucking shots down the field.

Weren't you one of the people who would chastise anyone who questioned Boller's hunger? Yea, you were. In fact, I never did question that or his heart. But you have the stones to do that to a guy like McNair?

Stop with you "I bought a jersey and cheered for him" crap. It's so painfully obvious that you want a guy who's proven just about nothing in this league over a guy like McNair.

You question McNair's hunger? You constantly talk about how his legacy isn't here, as if that means something to anyone besides you. Again, how is that relavent?

Maybe you will now understand why I write off pretty much everything you say on this particular topic.


PP

[dbcw]

ClericBlackDave,

I would agree with you if I actually thought Boller had NFL potential, but i do not believe he does. People on this board have solid arguments about the validity and effectiveness of the offensive system as I do, however, it would seem that someone with all the tutelage, time, and "potential" that Boller has, would have maxed out the potential of the system from a QB standpoint.

Clearly he has not.

In my opinion, it is highly unlikely that Boller will lead the Ravens to the Super Bowl. McNair is obviously the best QB on the roster. One bad playoff appearance doesn't change that.

[festivus]

The loser choked. He choked when he got into the SuperBowl and he choked when we needed him.
You mean he choked when he brought the Titans within a yard and a half of winning? That's choking? Not that I wouldn't rather have Tom Brady back there, I agree with you Steve McNair isn't the Second Coming or anything, but he's the best option we have on the roster right now.


Why is it that the rushing game is an excuse for the McNair, but Boller is actually blamed for the poor rushing stats?
Please don't confuse me with some haters who post here. Boller suffered for years with no, or minimal, tools on offense. The OL didn't block for him and his 'receivers' had hands of stone. You won't get that argument from me.


It's amazing what can happen to a weak armed QB when the defense is designed to keep everything in front of them. McNair can't throw deep very often, and the Colts just tackled everybody that got the ball before we could get a first down.
Agreed. That's why I was writing here soon after the game, we need to improve the running game, to force the secondary to watch the LOS.


McNairs lack of arm strength was the deciding factor in that game.
It may have been the deciding factor in the Colts defensive scheme, but it was not *the* deciding factor in the game. -4 in turnovers is for instance also a significant factor.

[darb72]

You mean he choked when he brought the Titans within a yard and a half of winning?
That's pretty much the definition of choke. Coming up short.

I agree with you Steve McNair isn't the Second Coming or anything, but he's the best option we have on the roster right now.
I'll agree that McNair was the best option this year. Next year there needs to be a competition in camp if Boller isn't traded.

Please don't confuse me with some haters who post here. Boller suffered for years with no, or minimal, tools on offense. The OL didn't block for him and his 'receivers' had hands of stone. You won't get that argument from me.
Sorry, that wasn't directed at you. I worded it badly and I aplogize for sounding like I was lumping you with them.

Agreed. That's why I was writing here soon after the game, we need to improve the running game, to force the secondary to watch the LOS.
We agree on that point as well. Jamal hasn't been hitting the line of scrimage in a couple of years now.

It may have been the deciding factor in the Colts defensive scheme, but it was not *the* deciding factor in the game. -4 in turnovers is for instance also a significant factor.
It's a Catch 22 type thing.
If we can stretch the defense, maybe the receivers have an extra step to secure the ball or give McNair a slightly larger window to get the ball in.

[festivus]

We don't disagree on enough things for this argument to be any fun.

:beer1:

[highwater]

The Colts game was a perfect storm of bad games.

What? Everything was set up for us -- we were coming off a bye week, playing at home, and Indy had not played well on the road in the second half of the season. If you're suggesting that everything that could go wrong did go wrong, I don't disagree with that, but it was all set up nicely for us, and we played poorly on offense, and McNair was a big reason for that. He had a solid regular season, I'm not taking anything away from him on that, but he was bad in a big game. Perfect storm? I don't think so.

[festivus]

What? Everything was set up for us -- we were coming off a bye week, playing at home, and Indy had not played well on the road in the second half of the season. If you're suggesting that everything that could go wrong did go wrong, I don't disagree with that, but it was all set up nicely for us, and we played poorly on offense, and McNair was a big reason for that. He had a solid regular season, I'm not taking anything away from him on that, but he was bad in a big game. Perfect storm? I don't think so.

Like many here I was predicting we would beat the Colts soundly, and I think we *would* beat them soundly, 6 or 7 times out of 10 at a neutral site. But we kept shooting ourselves in the foot, over and over and over again.

It was the way we kept shooting ourselves in the foot, finding a new way every drive, that was the perfect storm. A failure in every aspect of offensive operations, so no unit could pick up for the others.

[FHRaven]

Like many here I was predicting we would beat the Colts soundly, and I think we *would* beat them soundly, 6 or 7 times out of 10 at a neutral site. But we kept shooting ourselves in the foot, over and over and over again.

It was the way we kept shooting ourselves in the foot, finding a new way every drive, that was the perfect storm. A failure in every aspect of offensive operations, so no unit could pick up for the others.

No, McNair keeping shooting us in the foot. Look, he generated 6 POINTS at home, with a week off. The defense held the opponent to 15 POINTS! I watched the game there and I watched it on TiVo 2 days later, he was HORRIBLE. He didn't even need to have an average game to win that day and he totally sucked ass. The Ravens should be playing Sunday and he blew it. :thumbdown:

For the last 3 years much of the fanbase has bitching that Kyle was "ruining" a playoff caliber team. Ignoring that fact that: the receivers were poor, the OLine was old and couldn't pass block, many key players getting injured, and the defense was not what it had been in the past.

McNair gets the best WRs we've had in years, the OLine gets younger and pass blocks better, and the defense is playing at/near a 2000 level. And he totally screws the pooch. So how badly did McNair "ruin" this playoff run? Why people feel the need to defend his performance is beyond me. :insane:

Also, McChoke did NOT almost win the Superbowl. He was close to tying the game. More of the McChoke myth.

[festivus]

No, McNair keeping shooting us in the foot. Look, he generated 6 POINTS at home, with a week off. The defense held the opponent to 15 POINTS! I watched the game there and I watched it on TiVo 2 days later, he was HORRIBLE. He didn't even need to have an average game to win that day and he totally sucked ass. The Ravens should be playing Sunday and he blew it. :thumbdown:

For the last 3 years much of the fanbase has bitching that Kyle was "ruining" a playoff caliber team. Ignoring that fact that: the receivers were poor, the OLine was old and couldn't pass block, many key players getting injured, and the defense was not what it had been in the past.

McNair gets the best WRs we've had in years, the OLine gets younger and pass blocks better, and the defense is playing at/near a 2000 level. And he totally screws the pooch. So how badly did McNair "ruin" this playoff run? Why people feel the need to defend his performance is beyond me. :insane:

Also, McChoke did NOT almost win the Superbowl. He was close to tying the game. More of the McChoke myth.

I don't disagree McNair was responsible for a fair amount of the shooting in the foot. In fact I will take your argument one step further - New England's game plan, which put up a lot of points and yards on Indy, was very much a short/intermediate passing attack, like our own. It's just, we couldn't execute.

With all that said, let's put you in Billick's shoes. What do you do going into the Indianapolis game? Bench McNair? Or do you think McNair should not have been starting during the regular season?

[darb72]

Um, with 7 or 8 guys in the box he didn't have much time. He was under pressure the entire game.
No he wasn't. 2 sacks and 5 hurries. That's the pressure McNair was feeling.


Me thinks the title of this thread suggests people are happy McNair failed and the Ravens lost and forget he took Ravens to their most victories in history

Yeah, the defense didn't help at all. Giving up a whole 12 points a game had nothing to do with that 13-4 record. Please, McNair was asked to play Dilfer-Ball and is to much of a choke artist to accomplish that small task.

With all that said, let's put you in Billick's shoes. What do you do going into the Indianapolis game? Bench McNair?
In a half-joking way I'd say we should have started Boller for the Colts game.

As someone pointed out about mid-way point of the season, McNair played better on the road while Kyle plays better at home.

[ClericBlackDave]

You mean he choked when he brought the Titans within a yard and a half of winning?


Of tying a game that wasn't high scoring despite playing "the greatest show on turf" another game he choked on besides some failed last minute heroics


I've never seen people celebrate "almost" more than McNair's legacy on that botched superbowl game.


As for Boller, I say look at the stats over the last 10-12 games he's played (basically, the games after the 32 starts mark) and tell me again how he shouldn't be in the NFL.


But whatever. Honestly, McNair will start next year. how he ends it is entirely different. And each time that Boller comes in to play in relief of McNair will only add to the questions of when do you move onto the future, Boller or not?


Because McNair isn't the future. he's next year, and i think thats it.


And sadly, I think we've seen his best material. His arm is dead, and shies away from scrambling unless completely and utterly necessary.

[festivus]

As someone pointed out about mid-way point of the season, McNair played better on the road while Kyle plays better at home.

:happy: We could be like the University of Florida and have 2 quarterbacks, just swap 'em in and out.

[Baltoman07]

Steve McNair lead us to 13-3 like Rex Grossman lead his team to 13-3. And giving McNair credit for an amazing comeback in the Browns game is crazy. We had done nothing on offense all game and he leaves Stover to kick a 52 yard field goal to win the game. Stover had to attempt the 52 yarder because it was 4th down, not because time was about to expire. Overall I saw McNair as an ultra safe check down QB. I'm sorry but I'd like to see Boller at least get a shot in preseason.

[dbcw]

I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading. The same people who are criticizing those for defending McNair are doing the same things for Kyle Boller.

It's obvious that some on here have an illogical obsession with having Boller start for the Ravens while the case for Boller is very weak. This isn't Kansas City where there is a true controversy between Huard and Green. This is Baltimore where the back-up has played his career like a back-up. Many bad games and bad decisions, with a sprinkling of precision.

On the other hand, McNair has shown leadership, poise, competitiveness, and most importantly, ability.

Don't let hindsight bias and your personal reservations cloud you judgment, if Boller gave the Ravens the best chance to win, McNair would have never become a Raven let alone finish the season as the starter.

[ClericBlackDave]

Once again, 13-3 isn't something to attribute to McNair, you attribute it to the defense's ability to hold teams to an average of 12 points a game


Which, they did to Indianapolis also, but McNair had to go ahead and lay a fat stinky turd of performance.


I mean honestly, whatever.


I think there should be some competition between Boller and McNair. If the McNair apologists are so confident, they shouldn't care, because it'll be clear that McNair is better.


But I think anyone who watched this season and McNair's ultra conservative throws and lame ducks on anything over 20 yards know the truth. McNair chokes on the big games and is too old now to be explosive.



As for Rex Grossman, lets see what happens sunday before we declare him to "suck"


Like Boller, he has a high ceiling and can play up or down.


I fully expect the Bears, unlike the Ravens/Pats/Cheifs, to stick to the run and run it down Indianapolis' throat. And then to gash them with play action, something McNair couldn't do.


how do you play action to a 3 yard dump off every single play?

[festivus]

I think there should be some competition between Boller and McNair. If the McNair apologists are so confident, they shouldn't care, because it'll be clear that McNair is better.

CBD, there will be no open competition.

This is because the quarterbacks do not audition for us, the fans. Training camp is for the coaches, and for the players to see how each other are doing.

If Billick were to announce there is an open competition going into next season's training camp, the *other players* who count on McNair to be calm and to bail them out sometimes when they have off days, will sneak into Billick's room at the hotel while he's sleeping and beat him until he's purple and black. And they will be led by your precious defense, because even *they* depend on McNair to bail them out by being cool and calm even when they have bad games.

In exchange for them counting on McNair to bail out *their* bad games, surely they will forgive McNair for having some bad games of his own. Yes, one was in the playoffs, and cost us the game, but that happens.

McNair: calm, smart in the pocket
Boller: strong armed

Both can make mistakes, as others have said in this thread in one way or another. Both can occasionally be inaccurate. Neither is Tom Brady or Carson Palmer.

But they are who we have, and the Coach is starting McNair. Considering the team's record, it's hard to disagree with him, though you persist. As you are entitled.

[Dont Know]

CBD, there will be no open competition.

Yep, that was pretty much stated in the state of the team address. Boller will play out the final year of his contract in the role of the backup.

As for the future, Ozzie was wavering on the 3-5 year down the road look at the QB position, although imho Boller's name came up a lot when he talked about it.

[purplepoe]

Once again, 13-3 isn't something to attribute to McNair, you attribute it to the defense's ability to hold teams to an average of 12 points a game


Which, they did to Indianapolis also, but McNair had to go ahead and lay a fat stinky turd of performance.


I mean honestly, whatever.


I think there should be some competition between Boller and McNair. If the McNair apologists are so confident, they shouldn't care, because it'll be clear that McNair is better.


But I think anyone who watched this season and McNair's ultra conservative throws and lame ducks on anything over 20 yards know the truth. McNair chokes on the big games and is too old now to be explosive.



As for Rex Grossman, lets see what happens sunday before we declare him to "suck"


Like Boller, he has a high ceiling and can play up or down.


I fully expect the Bears, unlike the Ravens/Pats/Cheifs, to stick to the run and run it down Indianapolis' throat. And then to gash them with play action, something McNair couldn't do.


how do you play action to a 3 yard dump off every single play?

1. Of course the Defense was a huge part of this team's success. I, for one, have said that from day 1. You just give it all to them and none to anything else. The ppg stat is great, but remember that 9 times they gave up more than their average. So if the offense just scored 13 per game, they would've theoretically gone 7-9. Of course every game takes on it's own vibe and each team you play has a different D. But I think you see my point.

2. I don't think there will be an open competition, but if Billick decides he wants one, Im all for it.

3. Lame ducks on anything over 20 yds huh? He threw a rope to Clayton in Pittsburgh. Hell, his throw to Clayton in the playoff game was perfect. I sat in Arrowhead and saw his ball to Clayton. Yes, Boller has a stronger arm. That is the only attribute he possesses that is better than McNair IMO. See, you accuse and accuse about people not seeing the whole picture when "bashing" Boller, yet you just throw up BS like that.

PP

[dbcw]

I think Boller has had enough opportunity to prove what he is capable of. A competition with McNair would be absurd and disrespectful to McNair, the Ravens organization, and to the fans.

[darb72]

So you're worried more about hurting the feelings of McNoodle than winning games?

Nice to know you're a fan.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Please stop quoting Cleric "I bought a jersey" Dave.

I'm tired of reading guys talk about how much of a fan they were when they start negative threads every week. Why he has such a stick up his ass about McNair playing the majority of his career somewhere is is just as dumb. Perhaps signing Shanon Sharpe and Rod Woodson were mistakes since they have retired as a Bronco and Steeler respectively.

[darb72]

I'm tired of reading guys talk about how much of a fan they were when they start negative threads every week.
Talk to your boys Tex, Fade, Poe and CR. They've been posting threads bashing Boller for how long now? But you're going to call out Dave for doing the same thing? That's total crap.

I don't agree with everything Dave says, but I can promise that he wasn't cheering when McNoodle got hurt.

[purplepoe]

Talk to your boys Tex, Fade, Poe and CR. They've been posting threads bashing Boller for how long now? But you're going to call out Dave for doing the same thing? That's total crap.

I don't agree with everything Dave says, but I can promise that he wasn't cheering when McNoodle got hurt.

1. I may have started 1 or 2 threads that even had Boller in the topic. How about some "proof" to back your statement up?

2. I've been steadfast in my opinion of Boller. I don't talk out of both sides of my mouth. I don't think he's got what it takes to be a legit QB in this league.

3. It's fairly obvious what you are getting at when you bring up cheering when McNair got hurt. You can believe what you want, but I absolutely didn't cheer at all when Boller went down vs Indy. Feel free to ask anyone who sits near me during every game. I know you'd like to believe that everyone who thinks Boller stinks cheered when he went down, but they didn't.

PP

[ClericBlackDave]

1) any real QB isn't going to worry about having some competition in training camp. Look at Pentington in New York. He just led them to 10-6 but he's going to have to compete. Why?

Because like McNair, his physical attributes, i.e. his arm are a limitation, and a team that can keep the short crap in front of them and stop them from moving the chains with the dink and dunk can slow/shut their offense down. So Kellen Clemens will get a shot



2) Can we worry about whats best for the team as opposed to what best for Steve McNair? Steve McNair is old enough and established enough not to have some form of competition, even if its not official or open, not crack him.


As a matter of fact, it might actually light a lil fire under McNair's ass and get him to take some effective shots down the field.


As I've said a number of times, its seems like when he cares (i.e. when its 4th quarter or when the team is sevely down like in Tenessee) that McNair looks better. The ice in the veins BS is what i've come to hate.


What I hate to see is McNair continue to do this checkdown shit for 3 quarters so long as we're not down by more than a posession.


Our defense shouldn't have to hold its breath until the 4th quarter. We should do what we did to pittsburg every day.



In any case, we'll see what the team does about Boller's contract. If he goes into next season w/o an extension, we know what the FO thinks, or perhaps that if they offered a shortterm extension that Boller would rather have a change of scenery.


But even if he goes in w/o an extension, and is basically done with the Ravens, if McNair goes down for any sizable ammount of time and Boller plays well, you're still looking at a re-evaluation


McNair is only the guaranteed "solution" :rolling: for next year at best. And we'll see if he can lead us to a playoff victory. I won't be holding my breath.


And for the record, I do think that at home Boller wins taht game against Indy. His home record is impressive and he takes more chances downfield that McHasBeen, something you need to do against a Cover 2.

[purplepoe]

Nice, a new nickname bashing McNair.

Remember the shitstorm that caused when people made up names for Boller? Some got banned and the board mods actually prevented certain words from coming up on the screen.

But I guess bashing McNair with nicknames is perfectly fine, right?

Hypocrisy at its finest.

Even though there won't be a competition, I'd be fine with it. McNair will be the starter either way.

PP

[festivus]

McNair probably would be fine with a competition. The rest of the team, that celebrated McNair's arrival, would think it was a joke, and they'd be right.

Say what you want, a qb who leads his team to a 13-3 record does not get benched the following year in favor of a quarterback who does not have a track record of winning.

It's not a question of raw talent, it's not a question of which one has superior technical skills or is more suited to a certain type of defense (though I disagree that throwing downfield is a preferred strategy against a cover 2). It's a question of which one was under center during the bulk of the snaps this year, when we went 13-3.

If you think Boller has superior skills, you may say, that's not fair, because Boller was saddled with crappy pass protection, butterfingered receivers, and the occasional injury. And you'd be right! It's not fair. But it's football.

I would be perfectly happy to see Boller extended, so he can hang around as a future backup or even starter, should he prove our best option when the time comes.

But you don't bench a quarterback who just led the team to 13-3. And if you're not going to bench him, then you're not going to have a competition, because the competition is either (a) a farce or (b) a lie, depending on who "wins."

[copenhaggard]

And for the record, I do think that at home Boller wins taht game against Indy. His home record is impressive and he takes more chances downfield that McHasBeen, something you need to do against a Cover 2.

Like this one:
2005 home game against INDY (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20050911_IND@BAL)

Hmmm... looking at the stats, doesn't seem like Boller took too many shots downfield. Did he even throw a TD pass? Oh, and save the reciever excuse, he had Mason, Clayton, and Heap.

Hell, Boller didn't play the whole game, so let's use a game he played full against INDY:
2004 game against INDY (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20041219_BAL@IND)

It took Boller until the 4th quarter to get a TD.

Yeah, I'm not seeing where Boller wins this game against INDY because of your opinion of him taking shots down the field. Does Billick use a totally different gameplan than he usually does? Does Billick all of the sudden release the reigns off of Boller, even though Boller has had his fair share of struggles?

[festivus]

Does Billick all of the sudden release the reigns off of Boller, even though Boller has had his fair share of struggles?

While I agree with most of your post, Copenhaggard, I actually think the answer to this one is "yes." Rex adjusts his game plan to take advantage of the personnel he has available on defense. Shouldn't the OC/HC adjust his plays for his own personnel? Don't you think 2 qb's with two dramatically different strengths/weaknesses will see 2 different sets of plays called in from the sideline?

Not taking up for CBD, just interested in this one little point. . .

[ClericBlackDave]

Hmmm... looking at the stats, doesn't seem like Boller took too many shots downfield


In 2005 He took 2 deep shots early that were accurate and on the money but thrown to Clarence Moore who then coughed them up for INTs. (Don't ever ask me why Billick would start Moore over Clayton.) Then Boller got injured by our sorry o-line.


Never said Boller has superior skills.


But I think you play to your ceiling, and you play to win, and not via martyball or billickball. Thats where whatever love for McNair acquisition ended for me.


I support, and will support, McNair as he's our starting QB until further notice.


But they we're playing right now, I'd have rather stuck with Dilfer at QB.


We should be exploding down the field with the weapons we have, and considering that our O-line isn't giving up sacks anymore (finally)


I was expecting McNair to put up the multi-TD games to make this team a juggernaut. And multi-TD before the 4th quarter here.


Last year against the Bengals, the Vikes, the Packers, etc I saw the potential that our personel has if the QB gets teh ball down teh field. This team could score at will.


But McNair's armstrength is a bottleneck, as is his seeming inability to turn on the juice before the 4th quarter. I question his passion.


I want this team to put up points and win. Competition can only help that, basically everyone in the league sans Brady and Manning compete in some capacity. I can't see that hurting McNair. I doesn't have to be an open competition, you can say McNair is the starter, but say show us what you got.


We'll see what the Bears do with Grossman at QB this sunday, I believe that Lovie Smith is playing Grossman 1) for the hope that he's the franchise 2) because he has the highest ceiling for that team

[crazyraven]

Never said Boller has superior skills.

Agreed but he wins at home. Given that we lost our playoff game at home he seems to be the logical choice to start



But I think you play to your ceiling, and you play to win, and not via martyball or billickball. Thats where whatever love for McNair acquisition ended for me.
Right me too. A ceiling of 13-3 is high but for whever reason in the playoff we were playing as if we were playing in a crawl space. Boller would have open shit up for us.






I support, and will support, McNair as he's our starting QB until further notice.


But they we're playing right now, I'd have rather stuck with Dilfer at QB.
This is true too. A weak armed QB isnt going to get it done. Boller has shown time again(in the last few games it appears that he is ready and dont give me that ball bouncing off people argument). We just need to see him prove it at training camp. He may be able to take over at QB after sitting on the bench.






We should be exploding down the field with the weapons we have, and considering that our O-line isn't giving up sacks anymore (finally)
The system has changed for the better, and its all because of Billick. Boller should be able to take advantage of OL enhanced play calling simply because he is younger and more athletic


I was expecting McNair to put up the multi-TD games to make this team a juggernaut. And multi-TD before the 4th quarter here.

*Sigh* me too. We got duped here



Last year against the Bengals, the Vikes, the Packers, etc I saw the potential that our personel has if the QB gets teh ball down teh field. This team could score at will.

I like to think we saw the potential by the Houston game. He really found a rythem and hasnt looked back since.









I want this team to put up points and win. Competition can only help that, basically everyone in the league sans Brady and Manning compete in some capacity. I can't see that hurting McNair. I doesn't have to be an open competition, you can say McNair is the starter, but say show us what you got.


No doubt Competition will help the team but for Boller to emerge not only does he have to play well he has to have the confidence of the offensive players that he can carry the team on his shoulders much the same way Mcnair did when he came riding in at the beginning of the season




-->^78F$09U&67D!45A#54R87B)89V<--

[darb72]

I may have started 1 or 2 threads that even had Boller in the topic
Now you have already admitted that you don't think Boller is a good QB so you're not about to tell me those were threads saying how good Boller is, are you?

I don't talk out of both sides of my mouth.
Uh-huh. You're the biggest hypocrite I've ever had the displeasure of talking to.

3. It's fairly obvious what you are getting at when you bring up cheering when McNair got hurt. You can believe what you want, but I absolutely didn't cheer at all when Boller went down vs Indy.
Guilty conscious there? Really didn't expect someone like you to have one of those but hey, I do like to be surprised.
I actually wasn't refering directly to you four with that statement. It was for Haters in general.


Remember the shitstorm that caused when people made up names for Boller? Some got banned and the board mods actually prevented certain words from coming up on the screen.

But I guess bashing McNair with nicknames is perfectly fine, right?

Hypocrisy at its finest.
Now Poe I know you're smarter than this. Wait, no I don't. I'm pretty muched convinced you're an idiot.

[darb72]

Now I get to talk to someone I don't despise. Goody.:thumbup:

Say what you want, a qb who leads his team to a 13-3 record does not get benched the following year in favor of a quarterback who does not have a track record of winning.
How many games did we lose with Dilfer?

And yeah, the situations are comparable. Dilfer wasn't resigned after leading (I say leading because a lot of people seem to think McNair was the only reason we went 13-4) this team to a SuperBowl.

We've already agreed that McNair was the best choice this year, given his experience, but we don't know about next year yet. The best QB should start. Now people have already started taking up sides in the "contest" but the level headed ones need to be able to get behind which ever QB gives us the best chance to win. If Boller lights it up in the preseason and proves to be the best man for the job, then I would hope most Ravens fans would get behind him and Steve helps tutor the kid. If McNair shows his old form then I hope Boller continues to play back-up like he did this year.

I will point out that I'm on the Boller-should-start side.

[Admin Steve]

Let's clean it up guys please.

[dbcw]

darb72,

There is no reason for you to get cynical with me. In my opinion, McNair gives the Ravens the best chance to win. He came to the team under circumstances that were not optimal and produced for them. He was, and is, a big reason the Ravens performed with the confidence they had. They finally had a QB they could depend on. I think it is clear to most people that McNair played at a level expected of him and he deserves another shot to lead this team next year.

It would not surprise me if McNair get the team's MVP award.

[ClericBlackDave]

If McNair gets MVP, I almost think that is a joke. If anyone was MVP, i'd give it to someone like Trevor Pryce. A game winning blocked field goal? A buttload of sacks? Overall re-energizing this defense (along with the Ngata pick)?


People look at McNair like he's the savior, but there is no doubt in my mind that Boller gets us to 10-6 and the playoffs, with at least one game at home.


And that game at home, I think he wins it, unlike McNair.


Keep in mind, McNair's home record could be much worse if Trevor Pyrce hadn't blocked a field goal and Matt Stover hadn't kicked a 52 yarder. And both game's can really be attributed to dismal outings by McNair (at least until the 2nd half of the Titans game)


Competition should be had, and may the best man win.



And also, I would be one to say that, if Boller was agreeable, he should be offered an extension with some incentives on playing time and statistics. There is no way that after this year I want McNair as the only QB under contract, and there is no way that we get a good QB in this weak draft class with pick in the bottom of the 3rd round.


And for that matter, I dont want to restart with a rookie. It'll be Boller all over again, the way this town handles QBs.


Look at Lovie Smith in Chicago. THAT's how you handle a developing QB who gets injured. I also liked how they brough in Brian Griese to a big contract BUT, who's there starter?


You play to your ceiling. Period.

[festivus]

> You play to your ceiling. Period.
What the heck does *that* mean?

Does that mean we have to play Clarence Moore as a wideout over Derrick Mason?

No, you don't play to your ceiling period.

You play to ***win***. Period.

CBD, you're coming off as something of a one-note-johnny with your 'play the new guys' mantra. To sweep aside a 13-3 regular season on account of some luck in some games, and then to cite Lovie Smith as if the Bears haven't had more than their share this season, sounds a little, um, wrong.

[dbcw]

I think hinting at the idea of starting Boller over McNair would hurt the chemistry of the team. It would be a repeat of the 2001 season when they lost Dilfer and brought in Grbac. The team wasn't behind Grbac. He may have been a technically better QB (like some are claiming Boller to be even though he has never consistently shown it), but he was not their leader.

McNair is obviously the leader on offense and has a better feel for the game even though he may be the less physically gifted of the QBs.

You want to campaign for Boller on the premise of arm strength, but I believe that is the only area he has McNair beat. Everywhere else he lacks. Three seasons of lackluster play has me, other fans, and the Ravens organization convinced of that.

If the QB position was true to measurables, Tom Brady would have never been a success and Kurt Warner, Jake Delhomme, Jeff Garcia, and Brad Johnson would have never made it to the NFL. But tape measures and stop watches can't measure talent.

[festivus]

Three seasons of lackluster play has me, other fans, and the Ravens organization convinced of that.

I'm not 100% convinced of that. Boller has suffered some bad luck, some injuries, and some failings in other key aspects of the offense.

No question McNair is the better option at starter *right now*, but if the Ravens extend Boller with the option of inserting him at some point as the starter, provided they are satisfied he's the best option when that time comes, I have no problem giving him another shot.

Not this coming year, but one day.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Talk to your boys Tex, Fade, Poe and CR. They've been posting threads bashing Boller for how long now? But you're going to call out Dave for doing the same thing? That's total crap.

I don't agree with everything Dave says, but I can promise that he wasn't cheering when McNoodle got hurt.

My boys? I've never been critical of certain guys who do nothing but bash Boller? Tex has been on my ignore list forever. Basically, if you can call them out...as you do ad nauseam...why can't I? BTW a couple of guys you named should not be grouped in with the others. lol...anyway...

Yes I'm calling Dave out because his arguments make no sense. If you honestly beleive Boller would have won the Indy game...you have every right...especially considering how McNair played.

But using rationalizations such as "McNair will retire a Titan anyway" (WTF does that have to do with anything?) and hiding behind a "I bought a Jersey" is just pathetic. Crying about nobody taking McNair to task when the top 3 topics in this forum are basically bashing him is ridiculous. This is nothing new with him and that is why he is now on my ignore list...it annoys me as much as Tex calling Boller the anti-christ in every post in threads that have nothing to do with him.

And I'd hope Dave wasn't cheering when (insert joke name for McNair here) was hurt. I'm sure he wasn't. I don't really get what you are implying here...I'm not in that group who think that if you don't want somebody starting that you "hate him" or "are not a fan of the team and are a Steelers fan". I have no doubts that Dave is a hardcore Ravens fan and I am glad he is on our side...no matter how much I disagree with him or anybody else. So if you want to go to that extreme that is fine...I don't go that route

[darb72]

There is no reason for you to get cynical with me.
Sure there is. I'm an unusually sarcastic person. I even tend to be snide with people I actually agree with, which rest assured you're not one of in this situation.

In my opinion, McNair gives the Ravens the best chance to win. He came to the team under circumstances that were not optimal and produced for them.
See, this is where I really start to get sarcastic.
What do you mean by "not optimal"?
-Is it that number one defense that forces all kinds of TOs for McNair?
-The ProBowl TE/WR combination in Heap and Mason?
-The sure handed WR who gets YAC in Clayton?
Now if you're refering to the following:
-An offensive line that has problems forming a stationary target.
-A RB who has convinced himself that he is actually a ballerina.
-An offensive scheme that has proven to be terrible for so long that we've forgotten what competence looks like.
Then you have to say Boller was struggling under the same constraints.

He was, and is, a big reason the Ravens performed with the confidence they had. They finally had a QB they could depend on.
Yeah, they can depend on him until the pressure's on then he chokes.

I think it is clear to most people that McNair played at a level expected of him and he deserves another shot to lead this team next year.
Now that you've said something I can agree with I'll stop being as dismissive.
Sure he deserves a shot. So does Boller. The QB that gives the team the best chance to win should be the starter.

[darb72]

Basically, if you can call them out...as you do ad nauseam...why can't I? BTW a couple of guys you named should not be grouped in with the others. lol...anyway...
Well Fade probably doesn't belong in that group, and I probably should apologize to him but I like the symmetry of four in a group.
Dave at least confines it to threads about our QBs. That's the major difference between them.
By all means argue with him. After all that's what this forum is for.

...Actually I was just looking for someone to argue with. I was bored but it looks like the thread has perked up a bit. Your opinions I can respect even if I disagree with them sometimes and that's what makes the arguing fun.

[dbcw]

I was talking about the scandal that had McNair locked out of the Titans facility and got him here with less than nominal time to absorb the offense. All things considered, I think he did well enough to show the he is the better QB already and given a full off season will remain the better QB.

[darb72]

Yeah that whole absorbing the offense isn't nearly as hard as some folks think it is.

There are roughly 10 routes that a receiver can run. 10 holes for a RB to hit.

The only thing he'd have to worry about learning is the terminology we use and I would hope he could figure that out pretty quick.

[crazyraven]

Yeah that whole absorbing the offense isn't nearly as hard as some folks think it is.




I like boller--and this isnt a bash--but the guy is dragging his feet in terms of getting ready to start. I'm looking foward to him giving it his best, hopefully during preseaon, but Its going on 5 years now and we havent really seen him absorb much of anything.

Seems like it is a little hard, at least that what YOU would say



-->^78F$09U&67D!45A#54R87B)89V<--

[darb72]

It's not the system he doesn't know.

It's how to keep his feet under him that's been giving Boller so many problems.

[crazyraven]

It's not the system he doesn't know.

It's how to keep his feet under him that's been giving Boller so many problems.

That's surprising that you would make that statement because that just comes down to basic football mechanics. If he keeps falling on his bottom then what is it worth to the team and ravens fans. In other words are you saying the game for boller, at the Pro level, is too fast for him and he is not absorbing that opposed to the system? If that's the case I'm not too sure many others will want to put their eggs in the boller basket because if you see that I would have to think Oz and billick see it as well.

I am holding out and going against the grain and will hope that Boller will emerge as a quality starter for us at some point next season. You see I think he MAY, with having had time to sit on the bench and think about what he has done, turn the corner. Now that he has a mentor in Mcnair along with the the experience he should be well seasoned and ready to go.

[Rochardrik]

Yep, that was pretty much stated in the state of the team address. Boller will play out the final year of his contract in the role of the backup.

As for the future, Ozzie was wavering on the 3-5 year down the road look at the QB position, although imho Boller's name came up a lot when he talked about it.

This is not even CLOSE to what was said in the state of the ravens presser. What was said was more like We will have to address the qb situation, whether it be the possibility of Boller getting the oppurtunity to show his ability as a starter, or whether we will need to address it in the draft this year or next, or acquire someone else's qb!:179421:

[Rochardrik]

Like this one:
2005 home game against INDY (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20050911_IND@BAL)

Hmmm... looking at the stats, doesn't seem like Boller took too many shots downfield. Did he even throw a TD pass? Oh, and save the reciever excuse, he had Mason, Clayton, and Heap.

Hell, Boller didn't play the whole game, so let's use a game he played full against INDY:
2004 game against INDY (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20041219_BAL@IND)

It took Boller until the 4th quarter to get a TD.

Yeah, I'm not seeing where Boller wins this game against INDY because of your opinion of him taking shots down the field. Does Billick use a totally different gameplan than he usually does? Does Billick all of the sudden release the reigns off of Boller, even though Boller has had his fair share of struggles?

This post is useless!!! He only played a few minutes in the 2005 game, and the 2004 game he was essentially a rookie! One would have to assume that he has improved 0% to use this as an argument!:rolleyes:

[darb72]

That's surprising that you would make that statement because that just comes down to basic football mechanics.
Why? Unlike you... people... I tend to look at the overall picture and generally refuse to make a claim without being able to back it up. I've never said Boller was perfect, or even that he would be a good QB.
I've said I think he could be. Doesn't mean I don't recognize his flaws.

If he keeps falling on his bottom then what is it worth to the team and ravens fans. In other words are you saying the game for boller, at the Pro level, is too fast for him and he is not absorbing that opposed to the system?
No, I'm saying that annoying little bunny hop he does at the end of his drop-back needs to stop. That's what led to the sack in the Cleveland game.
The trips from under center are something we saw with McNair as well, so I'd be hard pressed to pin all of those on Boller since Flynn has a habit of stepping on his QBs feet.

[copenhaggard]

This post is useless!!! He only played a few minutes in the 2005 game, and the 2004 game he was essentially a rookie! One would have to assume that he has improved 0% to use this as an argument!:rolleyes:


By a few minutes, do you mean he played until 5 minutes left in the 3rd quarter?
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20050911_IND@BAL

3rd Quarter
Baltimore Ravens at 05:08
1-10-BAL20 (5:08) K.Boller sacked at BLT 10 for -10 yards (L.Tripplett).BLT-K.Boller was injured during the play. His return is Questionable. taken to locker room for x-rays


Listen, it's certainly a reasonable arguement to believe Boller might have beaten the Colts this year, but given his past troubles with the Colts, I don't exactly see a real decisive reason to believe this. Whatever you believe of Boller, it comes down to the gameplan created by Billick also. I asked this earlier, but does Billick decide to just create an explosive gameplan because Boller is the QB, given Billick's history of offensive preferences?

[festivus]

I asked this earlier, but does Billick decide to just create an explosive gameplan because Boller is the QB, given Billick's history of offensive preferences?

Interesting question. I think the gameplan changes (a little) depending on who is under center. Certainly I *hope* it does, the plays should take advantage of the strengths of the personnel, on both sides of the ball.

Not that this has anything to do with the larger issues. Only a moron coach would sit a qb who has guided the team to a 13-3 record, in favor of a (for whatever reason) unproven commodity in the backup.

[crazyraven]

Unlike you... people... I tend to look at the overall picture and generally refuse to make a claim without being able to back it up.

Not sure who or what you are talking about but....OK.


I've never said Boller was perfect, or even that he would be a good QB.
I've said I think he could be. Doesn't mean I don't recognize his flaws.

We all recognize his flaws. We all think he can be a good qb. Nobody thinks he is perfect (well maybe stinger does) but coming from a guy who says he is leaning towards starting him I am surprised that you want a guy who by your own admission is always on the ground because of mechanic flaw or as you call it a bunny hop.


Boller should get the job only if he wins it. Next year may be his last chance to prove that he can do it. If he doesnt lets move on.



The trips from under center are something we saw with McNair as well, so I'd be hard pressed to pin all of those on Boller since Flynn has a habit of stepping on his QBs feet.

mcnair/boller were only sacked 17 times this year with boller attributing to 3 of the 17. Falling over the center happens throughout the league but the trips were only magnified more so last year because of who we had qbing and of course our record. Mac clearly fell over the center a few times this year, and had he not fell over it would of been to the good. However it did not change the out come of any regular season game and it wasn't as often as it was in 2005. Boller has a big problem of falling over without being touched. He *really* needs to work on this.

[ClericBlackDave]

Jason Brown has already talked about this on the radio. Its the way Boller drops back that contibutes to the trips.


HOWEVER, the way Flynn drops back also contributes. I.E. Flynn stinks. McNair has tripped almost as much as Wright/Boller/Redman/Blake, and its mostly because the center isn't holding the point of attack and steps on his QB's feel coming right out of the block.


I'm suprised we haven't seen one of our QBs sprain or tear something in their ankle as a result.


As for Boller particularly, he's makes one or two of these mistakes a game. not optimal, but not a game killer if he doesn't turn it over.


You see the same happen to Favre plenty enough and people worship the ground he walks on. Why? Because he has big play potential on any given play regardless of the routes ran, and because he has a strong arm and leadership skills.



I think Boller has all that. Vis a Vis leadership skills, its tough to lead as a rookie. I dont think Ray Lewis would ever let another man "lead him" at this point. Neither has or would Ogden. But I think as the offense gets younger, more talented, and has an identity, so will an older Boller eventually be accepted.



But even Ozzie knows this year should be about it for McNair. The contract will start to Balloon and how many times do you play the same tune with an aging vet? Anything less than a playoff win next year and I think thats McNair's swan song.

[festivus]

Anything less than a playoff win next year and I think thats McNair's swan song.
They will look for him to be productive. I didn't see anything that makes me think he won't be, but our schedule next year will be tougher, and the Indy game may have exposed our offense somewhat.

But as long as he's productive, he'll be around. Ballooning contracts for aging productive players are handled with extensions. Ballooning contracts for aging unproductive players are handled with releases. Jamal will fall into one or the other of these categories, probably depending on how his ankle is doing.

[ClericBlackDave]

Honestly, I dont think the Ravens extend McNair.

Ozzie said in the state of the Union they are already looking forward to the future, Boller or otherwise.

McNair has 2 years at best left here IMHO. 2 if he has any sort of playoff record left here to defend; 1 if he doesn't or if he gets injured and Boller comes in and shows himself to be explosive again (like his last 10 games)

Thats just the way I see it.

And vis a vis Boller, I get the impression that his future willl really be determined by the type of contract he would be willing to take to wait out the McNair thing. At that point, we see how Baltimore's treatment of Boller has worn on him.

Recently, he has actually gotten warm receptions coming off the bench.

[FHRaven]

I think an upgrade at Center, which shouldn't be hard to do, would have a HUGE, positive impact on whoever is the Raven's QB is.

[festivus]

I think an upgrade at Center, which shouldn't be hard to do, would have a HUGE, positive impact on whoever is the Raven's QB is.
Agreed. RB, too.

[ClericBlackDave]

Speaking of upgrade at Center, don't be surprised if Flynn is let go for CAP reasons.


Also, for reasons of extreme suckitude.


Honestly, There aren't many worse centers than Flynn in this league, IMHO. Nice guy, glad he's gotten paid and overachieved as much as he has with us, but he's just terrible at holding the point of attack.


I'd love to see Chester and Brown starting on this line with Flynn gone, maybe also vincent (although he's good for depth at least)


Ogden/Terry, Mulitalo, Chester, Brown, Pashos


Thats an o-line i can be proud of.

[festivus]

TRAP, we can only hope. :thumbup:

[ClericBlackDave]

Are we really looking to the pro-bowl to decide talent for us?


If McNair goes, its because a bunch of people don't feel like playing in that piece of crap. The actual game is terrible.


But, whatever.

[highwater]

If McNair goes to the Pro Bowl, it's only because he's one of the alternates that actually is willing to attend. The league would like Brady to go, but he has a prior commitment and probably doesn't want to go anyway.

The Pro Bowl is a waste of time anyway -- I don't blame players for not wanting to go to it. I love the NFL but even I don't bother to watch that game.

[ClericBlackDave]

Anyone else see Steve Young on NFL countdown with Ray?


Basically said it must stink to have dominated the colts so badly on defense and then to get no backup at all from you offense.


The way he said it, thats a pretty big indictment on Steve McNair (and if you watch countdown, you know that Steve Young was never on the McNair was the difference maker bandwagon, and was candid that his performance was pedestrian)



Anyway, I want to see how Grossman does tonight.

[purplepoe]

Dave - to answer your question, a man who led his team to 13 wins and a team historic record is talent enough to be considered for the standby list of the the Pro Bowl. It means you're amongst the best.

I remember in little league and pony league going to our All Star games. Of course, I never made those teams, but it was always my dream. I sat and watched my friends play on those teams and envied them. One was eventually drafted by the Minn Twins out of Calvert Hall. I can't understand how some fans are putting little emphasis on making the Pro Bowl team, especially over on Ravenstalk.

Being considered the best is a great honor anyway you're considered, even if your home town fans don't appreciate you.

Im surprised you even watched something with Ray seeing as you wanted to run him out of town a year ago for a 4th rounder.

Still got that McNair jersey?

I wonder how some people would be reacting if it was Kyle Boller possibly being named to the pro bowl.

PP

[copenhaggard]

I wonder how some people would be reacting if it was Kyle Boller possibly being named to the pro bowl.

PP

OH MY GOD.

DON'T GO THERE.

IT WOULD BE AN ORGASMIC EXPERIENCE FROM SOME OF THE POSTERS HERE.

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF 10 OTHER QBS GOT INJURED BEFORE BOLLER WAS NAMED.

SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS, BUT PRE-GAMING BEFORE THE SB + BOLLER MAKING THE PRO BOWL = MIND BENDING.

[OriAl]

Nothing wrong with Boller that decent protection doesn't cure.

He has QB ratings over 100 in four of his last five games.

[purplepoe]

Anyway, I want to see how Grossman does tonight.

Any questions?

PP

[copenhaggard]

Any questions?

PP

PP, did you see how explosive the Bears were? Did you see how being explosive gets you? Didn't you love how being explosive opened up the game for the Bears? It's not about execution of the gameplan, it's about purely being explosive, and giving Boller a chance to "do his magic" and be "explosive", like Grossman.

[festivus]

People following this thread will remember (I hope) I have always said McNair should be the starter and *will* be the starter. A person arguing to the contrary is like the dog barking out the window at the passing postman. Barking does not change the reality outside the dog's house.

'Nuff said about that.

Concerning Grossman - he will never be as good as Kyle Boller is now. Boller has a few decent qualities and one of them is that he's *tough*. He will slip and fall on his rear end but he is capable on the next play of delivering a perfect spiral down the field to his man. He does not get rattled, and Rex Grossman over the course of this season and this past week, and this game tonight, looks like a head case. One or two bad breaks and Grossman is worthless the rest of the game.

They are both strong armed. Give my team the one who is strong willed.

[Baltoman07]

I don't know about Boller replacing our 13-3 starter ( I'd like to see him get another chance sometime) but Kyle is certainly better than that 13-3 starter that played for the Bears tonight.

[lance1086]

"While he's (McNair) been accurate once the system was changed, he's generally been pedestrian."

His YPA/YPC went up dramatically. And his QB rating was 92+. His play was very good from the NO game forward, no matter how you put it

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Hopefully now we won't have to hear "Man I love what is happening with
Rex Grossman" for a LONG time.

That was comical.

[ClericBlackDave]

hey guys, back on the forum after a good time drinking during that game.


Yeah, Grossman had a horrid second half. But really, his 1st half was fine. 6 of 8 with a TD.


I think the problem for them was, like us, and like the chiefs, and like the Patriots, they got away from the run.


That, and they couldn't stop the run.


The benson fumble and then injury really killed them.


the 2nd INT didn't help.


That said, we all know I am, and will continue to be, a Boller fan. Whether or not Steve should start or not is a moot point here. Because as soon and its football season again, I'll be supporting whoever is under center.


But I dont think competition would hurt, and I still think Boller is by far more explosive than McNair. Not as "steady" though, perhaps. But I want Heap and Mason and Clayton and Williams to be used well, whoever is the QB.

[dbcw]

I seriously do not understand the favoritism for Boller over McNair. Since he was drafted I rooted in vain for Boller to lead the offense only to be disappointed. Sure it's obvious how physically talented he is, but that doesn't change the fact that he is not a leader for the offense to look to.

Now we have a leader on offense in McNair, and people on here try to claim that Boller is the better option. Based on what? A few flash in the pan outings out of roughly 40 games played? Because of arm strength? If that's all he has going for him, then McNair is still the better option.

[purplepoe]

hey guys, back on the forum after a good time drinking during that game.


Yeah, Grossman had a horrid second half. But really, his 1st half was fine. 6 of 8 with a TD.


I think the problem for them was, like us, and like the chiefs, and like the Patriots, they got away from the run.


That, and they couldn't stop the run.


The benson fumble and then injury really killed them.


the 2nd INT didn't help.


That said, we all know I am, and will continue to be, a Boller fan. Whether or not Steve should start or not is a moot point here. Because as soon and its football season again, I'll be supporting whoever is under center.


But I dont think competition would hurt, and I still think Boller is by far more explosive than McNair. Not as "steady" though, perhaps. But I want Heap and Mason and Clayton and Williams to be used well, whoever is the QB.


1. In the 2nd quarter he lost a fumble on the ensuing play after the defense gave him the ball at their own 43.

2. How do you figure they got away from the run? They ran the ball 19 times and threw it 28. Hell, they ran the ball on the last freakin drive of the game. And 17 of Grossman's 28 attempts came in the 4th quarter.

3. The Benson fumble and injury "killed them" and the 2nd int "didn't help".

Let's see. The Benson fumble didn't directly lead to points. It affected the field position because the Colts pinned the Bears at the 5 following the fumble. Yet Grossman throws an horrendous INT that was returned for a TD. It was the 4th quarter and the Bears were down 5. I believe THAT killed them and the Benson fumble and injury "didn't help".

The problem the Bears had was that they couldn't sustain any drives which in turn let Manning the Colts completely dominate the time of possession. (38:04 to 21:56). If Grossman could've converted some 3rd downs, it might have been a different story.

4. Would you consider Grossman more explosive than Griese? I would.

PP

[ClericBlackDave]

Poe:


I say that the Benson fumble killed them, not because it led to any points for the colts, because it squashed any hope for anymore points for the bears.


To beat Manning, you want him to press and get out of his new dink and dunk bullshit. He never had to press this game as the score was never seemingly out of reach.


When you get that oppportunity, you have to make good.


In any case, I wasn't trying to argue over the superbowl.


On the whole I found it entertaining and am glad that it rained in a warm weather city. It shouldn't be that a city like Baltimore can't host a superbowl because of the NFL twisted desire to elminate weather from the game.


Vis and Vis Boller and McNair, now that the entire season is over and teh colts are champions, I'lll be happy to challenge for the lombardi again with the crown with whatever QB we have.


I just happen to be of the opinion that we'd be more explosive with Boller as QB. I want multi-TD passing efforts, and game where the defense can breathe easy. Other than 2 game against a bad pittsburg team, I don't think we ever got those from McNair; the other game where more attributable to defensive dominance. that, and in my heart I think Boller wins that game at home.


Its the radical opinion and I dont expect agreement on it. I'll leave it at that.


Looking forward to the draft, Free Agency, and more ravens dominance.


-CBD

[purplepoe]

I say that the Benson fumble killed them, not because it led to any points for the colts, because it squashed any hope for anymore points for the bears.

A fumble with 3 minutes left in the 1st half that didn't lead directly to points or a horrible INT returned for a TD when you're only down by 5 in the 4th quarter. And the fumble in the 2nd quarter squashed any hope for anymore points for the Bears? They did score a FG in the 3rd quarter. Sorry, but I don't follow that at all. That INT was the nail in the coffin because the Bears were still in the game and had the ball at their own 38 with 12 minutes left in the game.




:
Looking forward to the draft, Free Agency, and more ravens dominance.


-CBD

:beer1:

That much we can agree on.

PP

[Raveninwoodlawn]

During the season, Grossman and the Bears were perhaps the best in the league as far as explosive pass plays.

Well, we saw last night that throwing deep is not the answer to the 2 deep zone that everybody believes for some reason.

Of course you want to take shots every now and then, but that particular defense is specifically designed to take away the deep ball and force you to check down and have 10+ play drives.

[ClericBlackDave]

Tex, chill out for a minute. I know that you can't grasp this, but I'm a Ravens fan who just had a particular opinion.


At this point, none of this is really here nor there. Regardless of any of this, right now I just miss football.


Now i get to look forward to Nascar on ESPN. Oh joy.


I find it far more interesting that the rain seemed to play to the colts and not the bears. Whodathunkit?

[festivus]

> Putting Boller in the game against a playoff team is like throwing
> Christians to the Lions!

It took you five and a half months to come up with THAT?!

I can't believe I clicked 'view post'. Dammit.

[Greg]

LOL, I then picked that hammer up and whacked myself with it.

[Rex Thunder]

Boller would have done his usual panic, bumble, stumble, fall down. Some of you people who think otherwise must forget how terrible he looked in that home game he started the year before where he got hurt. He managed to lead the team to a couple missed field goals. Big deal. He looked as clueless in that game as he does in any game against a playoff level team. Putting Boller in the game against a playoff team is like throwing Christians to the Lions!:rolleyes: Dream on!:insane:

Are you forgetting that "THAT" team that Boller was hurt against WAS the Colts- who if I'm not mistaken, were a solid playoff team. He lead some solid drives and yeah, missed field goals. What did our offense do against the Colts in our last playoff game? I can't even believe you are bringing up old garbage like that..

[xmradiodave]

Great and fine, but who is this McNair person? And wow, you dug deep into the archives to resurrect these old bones. :)