Why the McNair gravy train has peaked, and I'm off that bandwagon [Archive] - Baltimore Ravens Forums and Message Boards

ClericBlackDave

01-15-2007, 10:46 AM

Its all downhill from here, folks, in terms of hitching this team to McNair. And that why he should be let go or should backup Boller or another QB.

Hear me out.

We went 13-3. Got the #2 seed and a 1st round bye. We had good o-line protection, Jamal ran well in that game, and had a good group of recievers.

McNair has a week of rest to let his old arm heal up and get some zip.

We get about 170 yards and 2 INTs, and 6 points.

What more does the man need?

The comparisons to Plummer are right. Plummer last season got everything he needed to succeed, and still couldn't make it happen for the Broncos. So they gave him half a chance last year before switching to Cutler.

Why? #1, Culter was drafter by that franchise, just like Boller was drafted by us. You stick by young QBs (see Rex Grossman), but you don't stick with veterans who you didn't draft forever.

Its like the idea that blood is thicker than water. McNair and Mason and Rolle, these guys will all retire as tennessee titans. They're Ravens for now, and thats good and all, but they're not really our blood. Its like they married into the family.

Reed, Clayton, D Will, Boller, these are our bloodline.

I dont want to see another 13-3 season and one and done. And I dont know what would make us not be one and done again with McNair.

It was his two bonehead INTs that killed us; he locked onto his recievers like a rookie. If I was to see that, I want to see that with Boller, or another QB we draft. But Boller deserves another shake.

Give me youth, energy, and enthusiasm and athleticism any day over a QB who seemingly doesn't give a fuck, and will retire a Tenessee Titan/Houston Oiler anyway.

Tspot-D-Ravenator

01-15-2007, 10:54 AM

:iagree: Ya know, the more I think about it, you're right! I don't think McNair is finished, I just think he struggles with cover-two defenses. It looked as if he really didn't care. Long deep passes will combat the cover-two and Boller does have a cannon for an arm.:thumbup:

LBoogy

01-15-2007, 11:06 AM

I tend to agree.

McNair has definitely done some great things this season. He's been elusive in the pocket and has great poise. But other than that, the guy is done; and THAT is sad to say. No arm strength, no fire, poor decisions.

Trading and picking up FA's from other teams is sometimes necessary, but there's nothing like bringing guys up from when they are rookies. That's what's so great about being a Ravens fan. We have the best drafting team in football. They tend to be loyal and there's usually a difference in team chemistry.

McNair's play last Saturday was inexcusible. I'm convinced Boller could have made more happen. He's got a live arm, and seems to be more competitive at times. Boller gives the Ravens the ability to stretch the field, and he has one of the strongest arms in the entire league. He's still young, and I'm not totally opposed to giving him another crack at this thing.

At 25, Kyle is still incredibly young. I like his chances to be a good QB for the Ravens in the future. Afterall, he played very well when he came in this season.

I say make it an open competition in training camp this season. It probably won't happen, but McNair is looking like he's on the decline BIG TIME. Kyle has upside, McNair does not. When you're 33-34 years old with no arm strength, and you play like you did in a home playoff game after a bye, I think the only place to go is down.

I love the fact that we went 13-3 with McNair, but we need to look to the future atleast after next season, if not now.

PurpleRulz

01-15-2007, 11:19 AM

Once again, you guys have lost your minds.

I will take McNair's 13-3 and one and done in the playoffs

over

Boller's 6-10 season any season you want.

Read these words. Boller is not our future. Boller is not a starting NFL QB. He has shown that how many times now?

You take your team with Boller starting and put it against mine with McNair starting, and I beat you every game you want to play.

festivus

01-15-2007, 11:24 AM

Boller has one year left on his contract. We can't go into this coming season pretending he's the quarterback of the future for the franchise until & unless that's resolved.

I suspect our QOTF is not even on our radar yet, let alone our roster.

Tspot-D-Ravenator

01-15-2007, 11:38 AM

muninn

01-15-2007, 11:52 AM

The problem with Boller as our starter seems to be that the key veteran players do not play hard for him. It is like they expect to lose and then manifest it into reality.

For what it's worth, I believe Boller can lead this team - especially after having a year to watch a real QB like McNair.

PurpleRulz

01-15-2007, 11:54 AM

The problem with Boller as our starter seems to be that the key veteran players do not play hard for him. It is like they expect to lose and then manifest it into reality.

Bingo, amigo! You lose the team if you start Boller.

RavensNTerps

01-15-2007, 12:01 PM

this drives me nuts...Boller wasn't 6-10 last year...

the Ravens WON 4 of the games that he started and the offense was more explosive than under any other QB in a long time, including McNair.

Even against Denver and Cincy, our offense was EXPLOSIVE (though implosive, too)...and then you really saw it come out against Green Bay and Minnesota.

Then when he comes in against Carolina and Cleveland this year, the offense was just more explosive in every facet...better? not necessarily...but a much higher ceiling.

It's a tough call but MAY be time for an open competition in camp.

Remember...Boller got hurt in week 1 last year. Wright was twice as bad as Boller...Boller came back and was responsible of 4 out of the 6 total wins the Ravens amassed.

ExiledRaven

01-15-2007, 12:02 PM

you'll also notice that when boller is in, people might be angry....but the young guys go all out...you can tell Clayton loves playing with Boller.

ClericBlackDave

01-15-2007, 12:19 PM

The problem with Boller as our starter seems to be that the key veteran players do not play hard for him. It is like they expect to lose and then manifest it into reality.

Then you dump the vets who won't play.

My ideal offseason would see Ogden retire, trade Mason, cut Mike Flynn, go forward with a young core and a young team.

I'm torn on Ray. For all the slobbing of McNair's knob that Ray did the last 6 week talkign all that shit and for McNair to lay an egg . . . Ray needs to stop playing GM and just shut up.

I want the older guys to just shut up and play. Period. If Ray can do that, fine, but he is also over the hill.

This was the veteran's chance and they blew it. I don't think they deserve a second.

I'd rather be explosive with Boller and the younger guys next year and go 9-7 or 10-6 than see another 13-3 with McNair and be one and done in the playoffs.

I'll say it this way; i like what the Bears have done with Grossman and how they handled it.

copenhaggard

01-15-2007, 12:46 PM

What more does the man need?

Why? #1, Culter was drafter by that franchise, just like Boller was drafted by us. You stick by young QBs (see Rex Grossman), but you don't stick with veterans who you didn't draft forever.

I dont want to see another 13-3 season and one and done. And I dont know what would make us not be one and done again with McNair.

But Boller deserves another shake.

Give me youth, energy, and enthusiasm and athleticism any day over a QB who seemingly doesn't give a fuck, and will retire a Tenessee Titan/Houston Oiler anyway.

Oh yeah, because McNair isn't on a sugar high, with the deer in the headlights look, I guess it means he doesn't give a fuck. You think McNair didn't want to win that game as much as any player?

Well, I ask you, what more does Boller need? He's been given plenty of opportunities, more than McNair has.

I mean, I agree stick by your young QBs you draft, but exactly when is the point that you just can't stick with Boller anymore? How many chances does he get?

You are all one-and-one over McNair, but where was Boller gotten us lately? Zero and done to be exact.

Hey, I'm all for getting a new QB, but right now, what choice do we really have? Until we draft a new QB, we are kind of SOL, because there hasn't been a lot of indication that Boller has really changed. Sure, I am certain someone brings up the two games he played in. I'll give Boller a lot of credit, he played well, and was a big part in the win over the Browns. But do you think Billick is going to change how he calls plays when Boller is in?

Is it your belief that Boller has totally reverted from his old habits and ways of before. Once Boller comes back, teams will have the plans to stop him, as before. It will be no different. As much as Boller is a team player, he can't lead the offense like McNair can, even as bad as he was Saturday. There is just a difference in confidence level when Boller is the QB, and it sucks, but that's how it is.

I will say I'd be have no problem with an open try-out in the offseason though for the starting job, but I wonder if that is actually going to happen.

I'm torn on Ray. For all the slobbing of McNair's knob that Ray did the last 6 week talkign all that shit and for McNair to lay an egg . . . Ray needs to stop playing GM and just shut up.

"slobbing of McNair's knob"
Exactly what are you doing right now? I've heard other players slob on Boller's knob, why isn't that wrong?

Dude, you're an asshole, seriously. McNair brought respect and class to this team, and was the first step in the right direction for this franchise, after the past couple disappointing seasons. We had locker-room problems, and all sorts of shit, and bringing McNair, and some respect to this offense not only helped our team with character, it helped in the win column.

All the shit we heard over the past three years, and Boller lays an egg. All the good things our team said about Boller, and he lays an egg. What the hell is wrong with supporting McNair, especially after he brings excitement to this defense. Was the end disappointing? Hell yeah, but our team took a big step in the right direction.

You believe Ray was the only reason we got McNair/Ngata? Is our FO that uneducated/naive the problems on the Ravens? Frankly, I don't know how you can sit here and bitch about what Ray suggested as missing pieces. Frankly, if Ray drafted Ngata, and signed McNair like you're basically implying, he did a damn good job. We have a dominant DT that more than pulled his weight, and a QB that really brought our team together.

Our young players are going to learn from this season, and how to be leaders, when McNair and Ray are gone. McNair shit the bed at the worst time no doubt, but he brought a lot to our team that other QBs wouldn't have.

postalworker

01-15-2007, 12:54 PM

I don't really know what to think about McNair. This seems to sum it up:

He's cool under pressure, he leads the team well, but makes stupid-ass mistakes and can be inconsistent. His arm strength is lacking at times, and he's far too quick to revert to the dump off.

He'll probably play through next season in a similar vein and then retire.

I see Boller getting another shot at being the starter, and I think he'll be successful.

Not much more you can say.

Big Meaty

01-15-2007, 01:00 PM

My ideal offseason would see Ogden retire, trade Mason, cut Mike Flynn, go forward with a young core and a young team.

Exactly how is Ogden retiring ideal?

This is the best he's played in at least 2 years.

Ravens0587

01-15-2007, 01:20 PM

everytime a qb debate begins,the first thing that comes out of purplerulz mouth is 6-10, 6-10,6-10, 6-10,6-10, 6-10,6-10, 6-10.

Hey buddy you can not pin 6-10 on him, the o-line played better this year b/c of continuity it didn't have a year ago, pryce is better then weaver, ngata is better then kemo, Landry is better then Demps.

Ray and Reed didnt miss as many games this year

Also, Mcnair played like shit at the beginning of the year, then he picked it up a little bit, I bet that was around the same time that Billick took over playcalling for fassell.

PR answer me this mr "6-10" who was our O coordinator last year

StingerNLG

01-15-2007, 01:20 PM

While we're on the subject of Boller and McNair, and the obvious people who are on both sides of this......

Don't ever fucking mention Sumari Rolle to me again. That has to be one of the more worthless pickups we've had this year. And the Indy game was just another example of how Rolle simply can't cover a WR.

Now, I agree with a couple of things on both sides. On PR's side, while I disagree about the type of QB Boller can be, and always have/always will, I don't think Baltimore is the place he'll get it done. Not because the team won't play for him, that myth was broken in the last game he played, but because fans simply won't let him. Short of winning a Super Bowl, and I don't even think that would do it, a piece of this fanbase will always be waiting with baited breath for Boller to get hurt so they can cheer. It's just the way it is.

On CBD side, I agree that if Boller does get another chance with this team, and the vets don't want to play for him, then fuck them and they should step aside. This is a team game, and they are professionals. The young guys don't have any problem playing for Boller, and you DID see that with Clayton and Demetrius Williams.

Of course, some vets do respect him. All you had to do was listen to what Trevor Pryce said about him after the Cleveland game (not what Preston was guessing about after Buffalo).

And if you really want to get down to it, Mason had less catches and less yards with McNair, HIS FORMER TEAMMATE, than he did with Boller and Wright last year. So I'm betting, Mason wouldn't mind Boller being his QB again because it means he'll get the ball again. And since we see Mason doesn't care about speaking his mind in front of the camera, you can believe him when he talks positive about Boller, as much as some people don't want to.

You are all one-and-one over McNair, but where was Boller gotten us lately? Zero and done to be exact.

Actually, in 2003, the year he was drafted, he and Wright were the QB's when we went to the playoffs. So you are wrong.

copenhaggard

01-15-2007, 01:31 PM

While we're on the subject of Boller and McNair, and the obvious people who are on both sides of this......

Actually, in 2003, the year he was drafted, he and Wright were the QB's when we went to the playoffs. So you are wrong.

I didn't mention that year, becuse Boller wasn't our QB for that game or the the 2nd half of the season, so it'd be unfair to pin that on him. Also, it isn't like Wright really 'led" us to the playoffs either, it was the defense.

The 6-10 season wasn't his fault either, but he didn't play well enough on a consistent basis to really say he would've led us to the playoffs, and a playoff victory.

The best example was our 9-7 season, and it was plagued by inconsistency by Boller, some good games, some bad, and a defensive meltdown against Cinci. We really had no stablilty on that team, especially on the offensive side of the ball.

Listen, obviously it's unfair if the player don't play as hard for Boller, and I don't think that's the case that they don't try for him. I think that in the back of their heads, they loose a little bit of confidence when he is the QB. I am not saying it's right at all, because it isn't.

RavensNTerps

01-15-2007, 01:40 PM

copenhaggard

01-15-2007, 01:53 PM

2004 was our hardest schedule in our history, i don't necesarily care about "opponents winning percentage" stats...

we had to play on the road at 3 of the 4 teams in the championship games (New England, Philly, Pittsburgh), as well as @ the Jets who were a missed field goal away from the championship game.

We also had to play the up and coming Bungholes twice. To finish 9-7 that year was pretty impressive, it just sucked that we lost to the Bengals.

And last year boller was responsible for 4 out of our 6 wins...and provided an explosive spark to our offense...you can't deny that. Even against Cincy and Denver, where he didn't encessarily play well, the offesne was explosive down field.....

No, it really wasn't impressive, because we were capable of more. To be the best, you need to beat the best.

I am really sick of the 2005 Cinci example, you know why? That was the 2nd half to the game, and we were getting our asses handed to us. You better believe we needed to be more explosive to stay in the game. If it's a tight game, we wouldn't be playing that type of offense, because that's not how Billick is.

Again, I don't see where being explosive gets us, when sometimes it hurts us. Being explosive is great, when you minimize mistakes, and it seems our QBs have a problem doing that.

And in response to the Houston 2005 game, that was a complete team effort, not just Boller. We scored one offensive TD, and a defensive TD, and Boller led our offense down for the winning FG. That wasn't just Boller there.

Boller has done some great things, no doubt, but there are many examples on the opposite side of the spectrum as well. That's the problem, his inconsistency really plagues him, and Billick doesn't know which Boller is going to show up, so more often than not, he creates or recommends a more conservative gameplan.

ExiledRaven

01-15-2007, 02:11 PM

Boller, no Boller, who cares.

1 ~ KB is going to be on the Ravens next year
2 ~ Mac9 will be the starting QB for next year
3 ~ look for the Ravens to invest a 1st-4th rounder on a QB
4 ~ new QB for the Ravens in the '08 season. Might be Boller, might be this new guy, we might trade for a backup with potential (I doubt the last one)

A new offensive philosophy might help next year. We need to starting playing to win the game. Herm Edwards will tell you that...but of course then he goes vanilla and loses too. A ball-control grind it out offense works quite often...but that offense is not going to get us to the big game without fluke plays and the defense of the century and that already happened once.

Unleash the O and see what happens. Leash the O and we're back to 9-7 next year with that schedule unless something else changes.

As to being explosive and minimize mistakes. When you're explosive more mistakes will happen, but the whole damn point of being explosive is that you're typically going to reap a greater return on that offense...namely scoring more and the ability to score quickly. 10 minute drives are great, but you'd damn well better score at the end and if you can't move faster than that, being down 9 pts is a death sentence, especially if you DO make a mistake.

Sports Steve

01-15-2007, 03:22 PM

Look at Manning's stats in the game and look at McNair's. They are almost the same. It's just the Ravens didn't get the breaks at the right time.

:jester: :jester:

StingerNLG

01-15-2007, 03:36 PM

The best example was our 9-7 season, and it was plagued by inconsistency by Boller, some good games, some bad, and a defensive meltdown against Cinci. We really had no stablilty on that team, especially on the offensive side of the ball.

No kidding!

- Todd Heap out for 10 games.

- Travis Taylor, you're supposed #1 receiver pulls his groin in game one and out 6 games and then is pretty much rendered useless the rest of the year (and if he didn't pull up lame on the play he got hurt on, that pass would have been a touchdown and the Ravens win week 1 against the Browns).

- Clarence Moore is your #1 receiver basically all year long, with Kevin Johnson as your #2.

- Jamal out for 4 games, including @ Philly and @NE.

All that and we go 9-7.
------------------------------------------------------------------------\

Now, let's step back for a second and re-enter the world of reality. First off, this is soooooooooooooooooooooo the wrong time to be having this discussion. I am angry as it is. We don't need a McNair Vs. Boller debate 2 days after this kind of loss. Yeah, McNair sucked. So did Mark Clayton when he cost us 40 yards by fumbling after a catch. So did Heap by fumbling. So did Billick by deciding to run out the clock at the end of the first half because he had zero confidence in his offense. The only two people I can't be mad at right now are Ed Reed and Jamal Lewis, who had 53 yards in only 13 carries. Imagine if he carried the ball 25 times?

So here is the deal. Unless he decides the pressure was too much for him and announces his retirement, Steve McNair will be back next year. Steve McNair will be the starter next year. Case closed, point blank, signed sealed delivered I'm yours. Kyle Boller will be back, and will be the backup again. Again, case closed.

If you want to know what Boller's fate on the team is going to be, you simply watch the draft:

If the Ravens draft a high-tout QB who is a projected 1st or 2nd year starter in the 1st or 2nd round, then Boller's career in Baltimore is done. I don't know the full class of QB's yet so I can't comment outside of the obvious ones.

If the Ravens draft a QB in the 5th or 6th round, then it's to make sure we have a 3rd for now and will likely move up to be the backup and Boller will move back to the starting role when McNair leaves.

It is highly unlikely Ozzie will dip into FA again to find a franchise QB, or we could just re-open the rotating wheel of QB's we had going the last time we tried to do this. So it's Boller, or it's a draft pick IMO.

StingerNLG

01-15-2007, 03:40 PM

BTW, I totally didn't catch your sigline until you added it Copen. What's up Crows??? Dude, believe it or not I have missed talking and debating with you on YBR. You were one of the good ones man. Very glad to see you made it over here.

ClericBlackDave

01-15-2007, 04:58 PM

And if you really want to get down to it, Mason had less catches and less yards with McNair, HIS FORMER TEAMMATE, than he did with Boller and Wright last year. So I'm betting, Mason wouldn't mind Boller being his QB again because it means he'll get the ball again. And since we see Mason doesn't care about speaking his mind in front of the camera, you can believe him when he talks positive about Boller, as much as some people don't want to.

Thats the irony here. Mason, for all his hate on Boller and longing for McNair in the offseason, sees that his production has gone down. And while he wouldn't directly hate on McNair, I think its clear that he knows McNair isn't able to get him the ball.

Really, its not clear that if Boller hadn't started all 16 games in '05, that Mason couldn't have had a 1300 yard 8-10 TD type game.

I'll say this: what happened with McNair in that playoff game might be the 1st step to this city and this team actually getting behind Boller whenever he gets his shot.

The backup QB is always the most popular QB in town unless your team has a Unitas or Brady.

Now maybe Kyle can get some love and support.

4G63

01-15-2007, 05:42 PM

Now maybe Kyle can get some love and support.

I always said that I thought Boller would be OK if he could get time to pass. When he fumbled while running to the sideline in the Denver game, I lost ALL hope. IMO, he'll be a backup as long as he is in the NFL...

purplepoe

01-15-2007, 05:57 PM

You know Dave, you make some good but then you go and say you think Ogden retiring is something good?

You bitch at Ray because of what exactly? Did you not bother to listen to just about every player this season "slob over McNair" as you like to put it. Hell, Brian Billick was probably the biggest culprit. Stop singling out Ray just because you have a hard on to bash him.

Ray's over the hill huh? He's the starting MLB on the #1 D. He was ALL over the field on Saturday. Maybe your gonna blame him for tipping those 2 balls that could've been INTs huh? You still think the team drafted Ngata just for Ray? Please, the guy was GREAT this season and is gonna be the anchor of the Dline for a decade.

The McNair debate has alot of merit and deserves major discussion. Ripping the heart and soul of the D after the season and game they had is RIDICULOUS. Talk about pot calling the kettle black. You get on people for bitching about Boller yet you have the nads to bitch about Ray right now?

No, onto the topic at hand.

Stinger basically nailed it in his post above. McNair isn't going anywhere and in all liklelihood will be the starter next season. Boller's contract will be interesting to watch. Could the FO decide to throw him an offer this offseason and see if he bites? Then they can go in next year knowing that Boller will be around and can step in if McNair goes down or needs to be benched.

And of course, if we draft a QB any higher than say, the 4th round, then the writing might be on the wall.

It will be interesting.

PP

StingerNLG

01-15-2007, 06:17 PM

Thats the irony here. Mason, for all his hate on Boller and longing for McNair in the offseason, sees that his production has gone down. And while he wouldn't directly hate on McNair, I think its clear that he knows McNair isn't able to get him the ball.

CBD, when was Mason hating on Boller? I have never heard Mason say a negative thing about Boller. I've even been told that was Mason's attitude "off the record" as well.

I don't know what Mason thinks of McNair at this point. And I am not even going to try and speculate. As I said, Mason has pretty much spoken his mind time and again; and not always to my liking I might add. McNair was the QB this year, not Kyle. So underappreciated might be directed at McNair. He never mentioned him by name so I am not assuming as such. If Mason wants to throw a player under the bus, I think he'd just come out and do it.

copenhaggard

01-15-2007, 06:24 PM

Yeah, good to talk to you again too Stinger.

I'll go with what Stinger said, actions speak louder than words, and the FO will do the "speaking" soon.

Raveninwoodlawn

01-15-2007, 06:27 PM

Pretty predictable thread...

F Angelos

01-15-2007, 06:43 PM

Look at Manning's stats in the game and look at McNair's. They are almost the same. It's just the Ravens didn't get the breaks at the right time.

:jester: :jester:

No it's that when an old QB plays poorly the moron kneejerk fans call him washed up but when a younger QB plays poorly it's just an off day. It's the same mindset that got Frank Robinson run out of Cin at 30 and Roger Clemens out of Bos at 35. If people honestly think S McNair isn't capable of winning the Super Bowl next year their nuts. Now if they have someone better in mind I'd love to hear it.

purplepoe

01-15-2007, 07:32 PM

Look at McNairs stats throughout his career and this season oh short sited one. He is a mental midget! Hey how bout that Denver game....nice throw in the endzone huh.......to Champ Bailey

You really wanna bring up road performances vs. Denver?

PP

festivus

01-15-2007, 07:37 PM

No it's that when an old QB plays poorly the moron kneejerk fans call him washed up but when a younger QB plays poorly it's just an off day. It's the same mindset that got Frank Robinson run out of Cin at 30 and Roger Clemens out of Bos at 35. If people honestly think S McNair isn't capable of winning the Super Bowl next year their nuts. Now if they have someone better in mind I'd love to hear it.

One thing about next year. . . I would expect in a league of copycats, whatever it was the Bills and Indy did at the end of this season, we should count on seeing a lot of it next season.

Hopefully we will do something to put more muscle into our running game in the off season.

Old and young qb's both have bad days. Coaches too.

Raveninwoodlawn

01-15-2007, 08:25 PM

You really wanna bring up road performances vs. Denver?

PP

Or road performances period?

purplepoe

01-15-2007, 08:33 PM

Or road performances period?

:thumbup:

PP

ClericBlackDave

01-16-2007, 11:01 AM

Honestly, I think you have to play to your highest ceiling when you play offense, NOT the safest play.

This is why the Titans went with Vince Young over keeping McNair.

Why Grossman is still the starter in Chicago (and they're still in the playoffs)

Why Jay Cutler is the guy in Denver

Why Kurt Warner gets demoted in favor of Lineart.

The problem with Boller is that we tried to Dilfer-ize him. And he had a shit o-line when he was learning the ropes, with shit WRs and no Todd Heap.

But when I look at how the Bears handled Grossman, I got a lot of love there. Stick with your guy.

I think Boller can and should be the guy when you look at his last 8 or 9 games.

And I'm sure PP and the usuall suspects think I'm crazy.

But call me crazy, I'd rather seen Boller in against Indy, had Billick open it up, and have Boller throw 1 TD to 3 INTs. At least we would have gotten a TD on the board.

But, for that matter, Boller hasn't had that type of game in a while (Cleveland), and even then he put up points for us.

170 and 2 INTs just doesn't give me any reason to pull for McNair other than the fact that I'll be stuck watching him as our starter next year.

RAVENOUS52

01-16-2007, 07:38 PM

McNair did make some idiotic mistakes that pretty much ended up costing us the game, but I'm not ready to throw him under the bus just yet. I mean, he did lead us to our best regular season record ever, as well as helped heal a lot of open wounds in the locker room.

His sole deep throw of the game was on the money, only the football gods didn't seem to be on our side Saturday (Clayton fumbles). Remember the year we won it all? Seemingly EVERY bounce of the football went our way! Against the Colts...Not so much.

No problem.

As a fanbase there's no adversity we can't overcome. I know that after enduring 12+ seasons of my life without an NFL franchise, having the Ravens make the playoffs and win an AFC North Title in 2006 ain't too shabby at all!

purplepoe

01-16-2007, 07:49 PM

And I'm sure PP and the usuall suspects think I'm crazy.

170 and 2 INTs just doesn't give me any reason to pull for McNair other than the fact that I'll be stuck watching him as our starter next year.

1. I don't think you're crazy. I just don't agree with you on Boller.

2. It's amazing that we go 13-3 (6-2 on the road) and people think we are stuck with McNair.

PP

festivus

01-16-2007, 08:36 PM

Steve McNair led the team to a 13-3 record this year. If BB announced at the end of training camp next year that Kyle Boller is the team's starter, he and Kyle would have 1 Winning Drive all to themselves, because everyone - players, staff, coaches - would just leave.

RAVENOUS52

01-16-2007, 08:42 PM

Some of you people need therapy.

13-4 season + AFC North Championship = End of the World?!!

B-more Ravor

01-16-2007, 08:48 PM

Some of you people need therapy.

13-4 season + AFC North Championship = End of the World?!!

Go figure....... :grbac:

Raveninwoodlawn

01-16-2007, 09:10 PM

The bottom line is that there are a few people on this board that short of a Super Bowl or MVP like season from McNair were gonna take their shots after the season. They either had too high expectations...are absolutely convinced that Boller is the answer...or don't like the contract he signed.

The fact that even with McNair they didn't think we'd have the season we had doesn't matter.

I don't understand why you'd rather have an unknown season with a QB who does not have a good track record over going 13-4 and winning the division is beyond me. :grbac:

But whatever...people with objective common sense knew these threads were coming from these people should we fall short.

Sorry you got "stuck" watching the most productive passing offense we've had since 96 over the last 10 games. Man that really sucked ass...

StingerNLG

01-16-2007, 11:09 PM

darb72

01-16-2007, 11:41 PM

Boller has a career 69 rating with more picks than TD passes.

Sorry Stinger, but I couldn't resist another round of "Let's prove the senile old coot is a liar".

Boller has thrown 36 TDs and 34 INTs. Boller has a 71 QB rating.
See http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/396152 .

Boller's completion percentage has never been close to 60% which McNair surpassed.

Funny, Boller completed 60% of his passes this season. Check the link above.

So tell me Tex, is it that you have no idea what you're talking about, or are you just a liar?

copenhaggard

01-16-2007, 11:59 PM

No RIW. That's not it at all. It's the notion that Steve McNair won all 13 of those games by himself. Amazingly enough, Matt Stover, our defense, and for that matter Kyle Boller (who I think won the playoff clinching game IIRC) get absolutely no credit for this record by the way some on this forum sound. I believe THE RAVENS are responsible for our 13-3 record.

I'm personally sick of the whole McNair vs. Boller debate. And I will be saying such in an upcoming post I am working on. But I also remember both QB's being able to push that passing attack forward. And I remember BOTH Quarterbacks being sacked a whole lot less than QB's were getting sacked last year. And I remember a game winning kick in Cleveland. And I remember a game winning field goal block by Trevor Pryce as well.

Personally, I just want to see people get off this McNair was the only reason we're 13-3 shit, because it's not true. Beyond that, he did a great job this year despite a very rough start, and he'll be back next year.

The whole problem is, as Baltimore fans, we are all so used to jumping on our QBs back after every bad game, that it seems as if it doesn't matter who it is anymore. No matter who our starter is, it seems after every bad game/tough loss, that threads about the QB situation pop up, no matter who is behind center.

I think the threads started to get redundant this year, especially after the amount of success we had this year, and after we finally started to see what resembled an NFL offense.

You see, the situation you spoke of Stinger, whereas some people give all of our credit to McNair, also brings it's fair share of people on the opposite side of the spectrum. It is the belief of certain people that we went 13-3 DESPITE McNair/McNoodle/McRagArm/McMentalMidget. The same exact crap we've seen with Boller, in terms of the names, and the responses to bad games, has transitioned right to McNair's play as well.

It's really a shame, because as Baltimore fans, we finally got see a respectable offense, and a great season. We finally seemed to have a leader on offense, after 6 years of an offense w/o an identity, and w/o a leader, we as fans, finally had the chance to see an offense, and become more than just a one-sided defensive team. The heartbreaking loss sucks, but we finally got a chance to even have a heartbreaking loss, and get a taste of what we've been missing for 3 years. Now the players know what they are capable of, and know what its like to lose how we did, and now they are going to want it more. This is going to be a hungry team come next year.

I for one am excited to see what we can do next year, because this team was not a fluke. For as bad of an ending we had, we have a bright future, no matter who our QB is, because our FO is beginning to realize how to balance this team out, and bring respect to both sides of the ball.

*I probably have more to say, but I got a mid-term tomorrow, so I'll save it for when I can clear my head...*

B-more Ravor

01-17-2007, 10:00 AM

skaybaltimore

01-17-2007, 10:33 AM

The point that I think EVERYONE is missing as far as the McNair/Boller debate is that as far as the offense goes, it's BILLICK who must take the full responsibility for how things evolved, EVEN when Fassell was here. And frankly, even back when Cavanaugh was here. THAT'S the thing -- if anything -- that's become the clearest to me after having paid very careful attention to every game this season. So much so, that it almost makes no difference WHO the flippin QB is -- or WHO the WRs are -- because THAT'S JUST NOT WHAT BILLICK IS COMFORTABLE WITH. We might as well get the best damn RUNNING BACK that's available -- because THAT is what Billick IS comfortable with. Everything else is a waste of time and energy. As long as Billick is here, we better just focus on a big ass O-line and a powerful RB -- because that's what he's about when it comes to offensive creativity; the rest is nothing but a supporting cast, IMO.

GO RAVENS!!!

festivus

01-17-2007, 10:41 AM

The point that I think EVERYONE is missing

Skay no one is missing that argument. You have made it on these pages more than once.

B-more Ravor

01-17-2007, 11:14 AM

First it was not one bad game it was multiple. He literally cost us at least two games including one that sent us home. Thats BIG.

He also won us some games as well.

Umm, did you expect us to go 19-0? Every QB is going to have an off game or two over the stretch of a full season - see Manning the last 2 weeks. Yes, bad timing on having a poor game on Sat, but that just underscores how difficult it is to win a SB (see SD also).

McNair certainly struggled early as he got comfortable with the offense and his new teammates. Once he got comfortable and Billick started calling plays, he put up a 94 QB rating. He played well.

Now comparing Boller to McNair...

I'm not going to even get into any comparisons because (1) I disagree with a lot of what you've said and (2) it's pointless since McNair is, barring injury, going to be our QB next year. Most of the world realizes and understands that.

skaybaltimore

01-17-2007, 11:15 AM

Skay no one is missing that argument. You have made it on these pages more than once.And I'll continue to express it, as long as I consider it to be valid. Let's see what happens in 2007.

GO RAVENS!!!

teagues

01-17-2007, 11:36 AM

Congrats skay for becoming the most annoying poster on both the YBR and 24x7 message boards. You must think we're all stupid since you repeat the same damn thing over and over in every thread. We all know how you feel about Billick. As dumb as your opinion is in my opinion, it's already well documented, so you can start discussing other topics.

You won't change my mind on Billick just yet. 2 division titles, a superbowl title, and 4 playoff appearances in 9 years ain't that bad. Throw in the fact that we have the best home record in football since 2000, and that other crazy stat of his, I think he is like 40-1 when he has a 14 point lead or more in any game. He is one of 7 active coaches in the NFL with a ring. Those numbers don't lie. He brought credibility to this franchise, and has put us in a position every year but 1, where we have a shot at the postseason. What else do you want? Only one team can win the superbowl every year. Historically, the most successfull franchises have one thing in common. Continuity.

And as far as the Mcnair/Boller argument. I know Steve is not the only reason for our success this year, but he is the general on the field. He led this team to that record. Opposing teams had to scheme us differently this year because he was behind center, not Boller. Don't forget that.

skaybaltimore

01-17-2007, 11:44 AM

teagues

01-17-2007, 12:02 PM

Hey, pal...if the brain fits...wear it.

Wow. A post without reference to Billick. My job here is done.:)

skaybaltimore

01-17-2007, 12:11 PM

Wow. A post without reference to Billick. My job here is done.:)Your job was done before you started. What's the point in discussing ANYTHING about this team's offense -- which was, is, and will continue to be BILLICK'S offense as long as he's here -- WITHOUT factoring him into the discussion? It wouldn't make any difference WHAT WRs we have, or WHAT QB we have -- as long as Billick doesn't feel comfortable THROWING THE BALL in a way that challenges the opposing D. What, were you so drunk watching the Cinci game in Cinci that you failed to notice NOT ONE SINGLE DEEP PASS UNTIL THE LAST MINUTE OF THE GAME?

So the bottom line is...you can talk about the draft; you can talk about our QBs; you can talk about our wideouts til the cows come home. When it comes to how the Ravens' offense is run, the limiting link is Brian Billick, any way you slice it. If you feel some personal attack because I'm critical of Billick, then that's your problem. But these boards are here for fans to voice our opinions. And if you don't like my opinions -- while it'll certainly cause me many sleepless nights -- somehow, I''ll get over it.

GO RAVENS!!!

ClericBlackDave

01-17-2007, 12:41 PM

Thing is, McNair had more than just an "off" day.

Thats is the double standard. I know that if Boller just had the identical season to McNair with the identical end, we'd be 13-3 "in spite of him" and he'd get the blame for the loss.

170 2 INTs that were drive killers, that is worse than an off day. He laid a turd and deserves the blame.

The fact that I dont hear anyone blaming him bothers me more. I'd rather have McNair and come out and apologize for a shit game than hear Ray say it wasn't his fault. It was.

A total lack of exectution, locking onto primary WRs and staring them down. I thought thats why we demoted Boller?

skaybaltimore

01-17-2007, 12:44 PM

So, CBD...correct me if I'm wrong...but it sounds to me as if you're looking for some vindication of Boller -- even though he wasn't involved in this game -- based on past discussions in which you feel McNair got praised and Boller got dissed unfairly. Does that about cover it?

GO RAVENS!!!

B-more Ravor

01-17-2007, 01:46 PM

Thing is, McNair had more than just an "off" day.

Thats is the double standard. I know that if Boller just had the identical season to McNair with the identical end, we'd be 13-3 "in spite of him" and he'd get the blame for the loss.

Sorry, but I doubt that. At least for most - since there are some who will never give Boller any credit - for most, if Boller had played as well as McNair did this season, they'd be more than happy for him.

170 2 INTs that were drive killers, that is worse than an off day. He laid a turd and deserves the blame.

The fact that I dont hear anyone blaming him bothers me more. I'd rather have McNair and come out and apologize for a shit game than hear Ray say it wasn't his fault. It was.

Then you obviously aren't paying much attention. Just about everyone has said he had a very bad game. I've seen no one excuse him for that - NO ONE. :grbac:

And McNair said so himself, as well.

Raveninwoodlawn

01-17-2007, 03:28 PM

The fact that I dont hear anyone blaming him bothers me more.

See, it's shit like this that makes me not take you seriously. What fucking board are you reading?

And Stinger, of course you and I and any reasonable, at least somewhat objective fan knows that this is a team sport and everybody has a hand in wins in losses.

Unfortunately we also know that the QB gets the praise/blame in regards to how his team does. Of Course the entire team was the reason we went 13-4...they all won 13 games and loss 4. But fans/media do not look at it that way, and that is why you have these debates and all these Anti-McNair threads/posts.

McNair played like shit Saturday. If you want to blame him alone for the loss...by all means go ahead. But you can't do that and then downplay his role in winning 13 games.

purplepoe

01-17-2007, 04:43 PM

The fact that I dont hear anyone blaming him bothers me more. I

It's been said but I'll say it too.

What the hell have you been reading? Are you making shit up in you head?

McNair played a HORRENDOUS game on Saturday. You statement is borderline insane.

You have gone to the other end of the spectrum and have decided not to give any credit to McNair for a 13-3 season. You have spread the credit around and convienently left him out.

WE LOST THREE GAMES.

Best record ever as a franchise and Steve McNair was the QB. You don't achieve that record in the AFC, beat KC on the road etc.... without some good play from your QB.

As has been stated numerous times, he really played well after settling into the offense and Billick taking over the offense. We went 9-2 after the bye.

He played shitty on Saturday. Even the most ardent McNair supporters have freely admitted that.

He's gonna be on this team next season and will most likely be the starter.

PP

skaybaltimore

01-17-2007, 06:46 PM

FWIW, Tex/Spike...I wasn't waiting for McNair to fail so I could jump up and say: "I told you so." I was really hoping he'd bring his experience and get us to Miami. But man...you just gotta accept that HE had a bad day; it wasn't just because of Indy's D; it wasn't the receivers; HE had a bad day. Don't try to rationalize it away; it just ends up sounding stupid. Even HE acknowledged he stunk. So let it go, man...and let's just see how it goes next year.

GO RAVENS!!!

Mobtown

01-18-2007, 08:09 AM

festivus

01-18-2007, 08:20 AM

Mobtown, it's not even a bias, because a bias implies some kind of weighing process, such as favoring red over blue. Reasoning with Skay is like reasoning with Tex. They only know one answer, it never changes, so there is no need to have any 'bias' at all. They are as biased as record players.

skaybaltimore

01-18-2007, 08:38 AM

No doubt that Mac had a bad day, but to discount the Indy D (which played great) and poor (2 fumbles?!) receiver play just shows how biased and irrational you are.No, it just shows what a total, absolute homer you are.

GO RAVENS!!!

skaybaltimore

01-18-2007, 08:39 AM

Mobtown

01-18-2007, 09:10 AM

No, it just shows what a total, absolute homer you are.

GO RAVENS!!!

I just gave Indy's D credit and criticized our receiver play, how on earth does that make me a homer?

Come on Skay, at least TRY to make some sense.

skaybaltimore

01-18-2007, 09:22 AM

I just gave Indy's D credit and criticized our receiver play, how on earth does that make me a homer?

Come on Skay, at least TRY to make some sense.Our RECEIVER PLAY? Are you REALLY that lame, man? Heap gets upended, gets a helmet in the ball, and STILL almost gets his elbow down in time, and you want to point a finger at HIM, while McNair is throwing ROOKIE INTs all over the field, and Billick squanders 51 seconds with 2 TOs before the half, and abandons the running game -- that for once was actually working -- in the 2nd half? You're beyond gone, man.

GO RAVENS!!!

Mobtown

01-18-2007, 09:31 AM

Our RECEIVER PLAY? Are you REALLY that lame, man? Heap gets upended, gets a helmet in the ball, and STILL almost gets his elbow down in time, and you want to point a finger at HIM, while McNair is throwing ROOKIE INTs all over the field, and Billick squanders 51 seconds with 2 TOs before the half, and abandons the running game -- that for once was actually working -- in the 2nd half? You're beyond gone, man.

GO RAVENS!!!

I am not blaming Heap as an individual per se...but ask yourself when was the last time that our receivers lost TWO fumbles in one game. It happend and frankly speaks more to the great play by the Indy D than any failures by our receivers. Fact remains that a normally sure handed Clayton and Heap gave up huge fumbles which directly contributed to that loss.

As I said earlier, I am not giving Mac and Billick a pass on a poor game. I think that Billick did the right thing at the half, but you are right about abandoning the running game. As for Mac, yes, he had a bad game...but it was no worse than the game that the other QB on the field put up and somehow Indy managed to win the game...so I don't see how you can dump all the blame in his lap.

skaybaltimore

01-18-2007, 09:37 AM

I am not blaming Heap as an individual per se...but ask yourself when was the last time that our receivers lost TWO fumbles in one game. It happend and frankly speaks more to the great play by the Indy D than any failures by our receivers. Fact remains that a normally sure handed Clayton and Heap gave up huge fumbles which directly contributed to that loss.And the FACT IS, that's part of FOOTBALL! What McNair & Billick did goes WELL BEYOND THAT. And your meager attempts to try to equate the two just show how stupid your arguments are!

As I said earlier, I am not giving Mac and Billick a pass on a poor game. I think that Billick did the right thing at the half, but you are right about abandoning the running game. As for Mac, yes, he had a bad game...but it was no worse than the game that the other QB on the field put up and somehow Indy managed to win the game...so I don't see how you can dump all the blame in his lap.No, not "somehow", as if by magic. WE GOT OUTCOACHED, HOMER. And OUTPLAYED. Period. And now we get to look forward to MORE anemic offense from BB. Great. Whoopee! I can hardly wait.

GO RAVENS!!!

Mobtown

01-18-2007, 09:43 AM

And the FACT IS, that's part of FOOTBALL! What McNair & Billick did goes WELL BEYOND THAT. And your meager attempts to try to equate the two just show how stupid your arguments are!

So INTs and bad challenges are NOT part of football? :grbac:

No, not "somehow", as if by magic. WE GOT OUTCOACHED, HOMER. And OUTPLAYED. Period. And now we get to look forward to MORE anemic offense from BB. Great. Whoopee! I can hardly wait.

GO RAVENS!!!

We definately got outplayed, but I don't agree that we got out coached.

skaybaltimore

01-18-2007, 09:47 AM

So INTs and bad challenges are NOT part of football? :grbac: ROOKIE INTs that McNair threw -- especially the one at the goal line -- FALL ON THE QB! The fumble by Heap is PART OF THE GAME. That's the difference.
We definately got outplayed, but I don't agree that we got out coached.Well, I believe you're in a VERY small minority on that point. Even BILLICK HIMSELF doesn't agree with you. But you keep on believing -- and posting -- whatever it is you believe, dude. It just helps complete the picture of your immense football knowledge and acumen.

GO RAVENS!!!

Mobtown

01-18-2007, 10:05 AM

ROOKIE INTs that McNair threw -- especially the one at the goal line -- FALL ON THE QB! The fumble by Heap is PART OF THE GAME. That's the difference.

It's the same damn thing Skay. Turnovers are part of the game, period. This is what I mean by your selective arguments. You only look at the the piece that supports your stance and ignore everything else. In fact you take it one step further by actually downing other posters because of their opinions. Seems a little defensive to me.

Well, I believe you're in a VERY small minority on that point. Even BILLICK HIMSELF doesn't agree with you. But you keep on believing -- and posting -- whatever it is you believe, dude. It just helps complete the picture of your immense football knowledge and acumen.

GO RAVENS!!!

That's OK with me Skay, I don't seek your aproval. No one HAS to agree with me and I am quite comfortable in the minority. Here's a thought, you don't like what I have to say? Use the /ignore feature...which is exactly what I am about to do.

skaybaltimore

01-18-2007, 10:27 AM

It's the same damn thing Skay. Turnovers are part of the game, period.Only to a one-dimensional thinker. All you have to do is expand your box a bit, and look at tennis. There, they CLEARLY have TWO categories of errors: Forced, and UNFORCED. McNair's int in the endzone was absolutely UNFORCED. He had ALL DAY. In fact, he waited TOO LONG to THROW the ball. Heap and Clayton had FORCED errors, with Heap's a bit more forced than Clayton's.

That's OK with me Skay, I don't seek your aproval. No one HAS to agree with me and I am quite comfortable in the minority. Here's a thought, you don't like what I have to say? Use the /ignore feature...which is exactly what I am about to do.Thanks.

GO RAVENS!!!

copenhaggard

01-19-2007, 12:39 AM

Only to a one-dimensional thinker. All you have to do is expand your box a bit, and look at tennis. There, they CLEARLY have TWO categories of errors: Forced, and UNFORCED. McNair's int in the endzone was absolutely UNFORCED. He had ALL DAY. In fact, he waited TOO LONG to THROW the ball. Heap and Clayton had FORCED errors, with Heap's a bit more forced than Clayton's.
Thanks.

GO RAVENS!!!

:rolling:

Send me the link where the NFL keeps track of forced and unforced errors. Turnovers are turnovers. McNair made bad decisions, and Heap/Clayton didn't secure the ball. How is that different? It seems you are being one-dimensional, especially when you try to classify turnovers in different categories to make McNair look worse. Turnovers = loss of concentration/fuck up, plain and simple. There's no turnover that is less of a turnover than the others.

LMAO @ the tennis reference. The game of tennis draws some real parallel comparisons to football, let me tell you.

Raveninwoodlawn

01-19-2007, 01:07 AM

So, CBD...correct me if I'm wrong...but it sounds to me as if you're looking for some vindication of Boller -- even though he wasn't involved in this game

BINGO!!!

purplepoe

01-19-2007, 05:20 PM

Why the McNair gravy train has peaked, and I'm off that bandwagon

The thread of this title begs this question.

How can you jump off a bandwagon that you were never on?

PP

ClericBlackDave

01-20-2007, 09:38 AM

Ummm gee let me see. I own a McNair jersey. I was excited about this season, about he and the Ravens, etc.

At points this season I have critiques of him because he laid 2 or so eggs, but he bounced back. Plus, they were road games.

But when you get to the playoffs with the 1st round bye to rest your body, and the home crowd going nuts at least until the late 3rd / early 4th quarter, and what you put up in 2 INTs and 170, thats when I'm off the bandwagon.

If he's the starter next year, I'll pull for him because I pull for the Ravens. But I dont think he allows the true maximization of our talent on offense.

I think you need to play to your ceiling. Play to the potential.

I think its a tough sell for your average Ravens fan to play to Boller's potential because Billick's playcalls mostly play to the safe bet, the higest guarantee, the most-safe basement.

Thats where McNair was and is defnitely and upgrade. His lows usually (forgetting his performances at Denver and against the Colts) weren't nearly as low as Bollers.

However, he really never showed me he had the potential to throw 3 and 4 TDs, and to recievers.

I like our chances to put up points in a comeback effort (more than one posseesion down) with Boller a lot better. I also like our ability to quick score with deep passing a lot better with Boller.

McNair is the "steadier hand" but when we're down by more than a possession with him, i dont know.

StingerNLG

01-20-2007, 09:51 AM

LMAO @ the tennis reference. The game of tennis draws some real parallel comparisons to football, let me tell you.

Well, they both have balls. ROFL

FadeToBlack

01-20-2007, 06:21 PM

CBD:
I dont want to see another 13-3 season and one and done.

May I make a suggestion then?

Start Boller at quarterback.

Not only will you not have a 13-3 season, you are guaranteed to not have a one-and-done too.

Problem solved! :thumbup:

Raveninwoodlawn

01-20-2007, 09:13 PM

May I make a suggestion then?

Start Boller at quarterback.

Not only will you not have a 13-3 season, you are guaranteed to not have a one-and-done too.

Problem solved! :thumbup:

LMAO!

Not saying I completely agree with him, but that was funny.

Cleric, stop your lame backtracking.

Grouping Boller in with the likes of Reed as if he is a core player of our team is just dumb and stupid.

Complaining about not wanting guys because they played the prime of thier careers somewhere is is just as dumb. Were you bitching about Rod Woodson and Shannon Sharpe in 2000 and 2001?

Why you insist on telling us that we should play Boller because the Titans played Young (only because at the time Collins was awful and thier season was going nowhere), The Cardinals playing Lienart (are you kidding?), Grossman playing in Chicago (the guy singlehandedly lost their 3 games, and would have cost them more if it weren't for thier special teams and defense...and the city was calling for fucking Brian Griese) and Cutler in Denver (yeah...that worked out well...7-4 to missing the playoffs) is beyond me.

Saying crap like you don't think McNair gave a fuck, you don't want to "suffer" through another season like this, and you are upset that nobody is blaming McNair is why I just can't take you seriously. And what happened to your thread where you started it off with "After we lose to the Saints next week..."?

I'm sorry you had to suffer through this crappy, boring season with a QB who sucks ass and hates being here. Why none of the players or FO can see what you see is baffling. Nobody feels as disapointed with what happened as you and you are just stating the obvious. Maybe Steve can hire you so you can give Boller a nice size bonus to stay and cut all the players who weren't originally drafted by the Ravens.

We all know you'll have the last laugh

purplepoe

01-20-2007, 10:09 PM

LMAO!

Not saying I completely agree with him, but that was funny.

Cleric, stop your lame backtracking.

Grouping Boller in with the likes of Reed as if he is a core player of our team is just dumb and stupid.

Complaining about not wanting guys because they played the prime of thier careers somewhere is is just as dumb. Were you bitching about Rod Woodson and Shannon Sharpe in 2000 and 2001?

Why you insist on telling us that we should play Boller because the Titans played Young (only because at the time Collins was awful and thier season was going nowhere), The Cardinals playing Lienart (are you kidding?), Grossman playing in Chicago (the guy singlehandedly lost their 3 games, and would have cost them more if it weren't for thier special teams and defense...and the city was calling for fucking Brian Griese) and Cutler in Denver (yeah...that worked out well...7-4 to missing the playoffs) is beyond me.

Saying crap like you don't think McNair gave a fuck, you don't want to "suffer" through another season like this, and you are upset that nobody is blaming McNair is why I just can't take you seriously. And what happened to your thread where you started it off with "After we lose to the Saints next week..."?

I'm sorry you had to suffer through this crappy, boring season with a QB who sucks ass and hates being here. Why none of the players or FO can see what you see is baffling. Nobody feels as disapointed with what happened as you and you are just stating the obvious. Maybe Steve can hire you so you can give Boller a nice size bonus to stay and cut all the players who weren't originally drafted by the Ravens.

We all know you'll have the last laugh

The nail just met the hammer square.

PP

ClericBlackDave

01-21-2007, 12:39 PM

The 13-3 record is far more attributable to the defense and a lot of great players by the entire 53 man roster than it is the simple addition of McNair.

And of course the loss can be attributed to more than McNair.

But if you told me last offseason we were going to spend 11 million up front for a QB to have him throw 2 INTs and 170 in our only playoff game, I'd almost have to puke.

That was putrid. There is no back-tracking from me. I wore my McNair jersey to that game and pulled for him to bring us back utnil the final seconds.

In any case, I dont want another 13-3 and one and one situation because how many years does McNair have left even at this dimished level?

The vets get next year, and then comes the purge.

however, if we hadn't signed McNair, I think we would easily have the money to resign AD, and do some other things. And i dont htink we'd be worse than 10-6 and in the playoffs. Thats my opinion.

I point to the Bears as to why I'm really off the McNair bandwagon. Because I see teams going with explosive attacks to put up points, and I don't think McNair can really do that. The teams like SD, KC, Balt that relied too heavily on defense and thier run game got squashed.

skaybaltimore

01-21-2007, 01:44 PM

It's hard to argue with anything you've said, CBD.

:thumbup:

GO RAVENS!!!

skaybaltimore

01-22-2007, 12:42 AM

Well, they both have balls. ROFLOdd. You're usually one of the few people here who can actually think for himself.

GO RAVENS!!!

copenhaggard

01-22-2007, 09:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
Well, they both have balls. ROFL

Odd. You're usually one of the few people here who can actually think for himself.

Uh oh Stinger, I wouldn't want to get on skay's shitlist, he might question your football knowledge.

It's hard to argue with anything you've said, CBD.

Oh, usually you're one of the posters that actually thinks for himself, my bad. So, you're so full of football knowledge you have nothing to add? What a "dynamic discussion" (coined by everyone's favorite skay) you've added.

Only to stupid fucking assholes who don't even understand the difference between what Caldwell did tonight (1 dropped pass IN THE END ZONE, and 1 dropped pass when he was split right with NOBODY COVERING HIM, and a clear shot to the end zone) and what happened to Heap and Clayton. The rough analogy to tennis shouldn't have even been necessary in the first place, but your ability to understand what actually happens on a football field is so limited I thought it might help you fill in the gaps in your gray matter. Obviously, nothing will help in that regard.

GO RAVENS!!!

Aren't you the guy bitching about not enough civility on this board?

I see, anyways...

Yeah, I don't see the difference. I'm sorry, but dropping a pass, to fumbling the ball are all the same, mistakes. Ask Heap/Clayton about if whether their mistakes were "forced", and it takes anything away from the mistakes, and they'd say no. Putting the ball away, to concentrating more on catching the pass are all things that stop mistakes/turnovers/drops from being made.

About me knowing nothing about football...

How about you tell all of us what exactly your football experience is, and what you know about football, since you're quick to dish out how "you know nothing about football" to people who have opinions contrary to yours. I guarentee if you pulled your geriatric ass out of your wheelchair onto the football field, all your tough talk would disappear faster than your head getting buried in the ground. You see, I can tell by how you post you don't understand the team aspect, or what football is really about. You come here trying to "educate" all the stupid people here, when in fact, you're the one getting the education. 90% of the people on this board know more about football than you, and about %1 act like you, except the %1 that does knows their shit.

You see, I understand your point of view on "unforced/forced" errors (though I don't agree), but I am just going to keep arguing it, because you're little outbursts are hilarious. When you have to start calling people "fucking assholes" and such, I know I have you reeling.

ExiledRaven

01-22-2007, 09:25 AM

Well, the colts game was rough. McNair didn't play really well, but we had a fumble by clayton that lost a 40 yard gain, a fumble by Heap that we're lucky didn't result in a TD. Lots of passes 2-3 yards short of the stick....not to mention the int around the colt 30 and on the goaline.

McNair is back next year starting, no matter how much we talk, complain, scream, or say boller can throw 50 yards while at the same time tripping over his own feet.

While the Ravens did very well this year, we have a few serious problems. McNair is probably good for 1-2 more years, tops. Let's be honest. Next, do we stick with Boller or are we going to go shopping? If we go shopping we've got a problem, you're not getting a franchise QB at #25+ in the draft.

Ok, so Brady was a 6th rounder, i know. But who is explosive? They're typically high picks, Manning, Palmer. Of course, you might draft Joey Harrington.

There is also the possibiliy david carr is going to be available, most of his problems have been no protection and no running game...he might be someone to bring in. Then you have carr and boller competing to be the starter of the future and the loser is #2. Probably a bad idea, but that's why i'm a fan. Either way, he's got an arm, isn't totally awful, and can move around more that johnny mcstatute.

I am still laughing that our offense lost the game for us while they were playing "not to lose" football. Knife me.

Baltoman07

01-22-2007, 03:20 PM

Agree 100% Exiled. How could McNair play it safe with 3 yard passes and still give the damn game away? That was hard on the eyes.

ClericBlackDave

01-22-2007, 04:21 PM

Agree 100% Exiled. How could McNair play it safe with 3 yard passes and still give the damn game away? That was hard on the eyes.

I think that is the worse part.

If you're goign to bring in McNair to play super-DilferBall, you would expect that with him throwing short safe passes 3 yards short of the 1st down, he wouldn't have gifted the game away to the colts.

2 INTs that were drive killers and relatively unforced . . . and no explosive play other than the Mark Clayton catch that was fumbled . . .

Is there blame on Heap and Clayton? Of course. But Heap was taking a hard hit, and I can't blame him. Clayton, I can't really blame him either.

If those picks McNair threw were under duress or something, I'd be more likely to give him a muligan.

Overall, my gripe is that I'd rather see the Ravens play explosive on offense with passing down the field, mistakes and all.

In Boller's last game, I didn't mind the INT (which Mason called for the ball when double covered) if it means that Boller connects on a 80 yards play to D Will

Overall, vets are going to get next year to get another crack at it; then I want them gone.

And call me crazy, but I dont mind if Ogden retires, I actually prefer that. I need someone who's heart is in it, additionally, I want youth on the o-line. Some guys that are young and need to craft their legacy (like Boller). Ogden already has his legacy and doesn't need much to improve on it.

purplepoe

01-22-2007, 04:40 PM

I think that is the worse part.

If you're goign to bring in McNair to play super-DilferBall, you would expect that with him throwing short safe passes 3 yards short of the 1st down, he wouldn't have gifted the game away to the colts.

2 INTs that were drive killers and relatively unforced . . . and no explosive play other than the Mark Clayton catch that was fumbled . . .

Is there blame on Heap and Clayton? Of course. But Heap was taking a hard hit, and I can't blame him. Clayton, I can't really blame him either.

If those picks McNair threw were under duress or something, I'd be more likely to give him a muligan.

Overall, my gripe is that I'd rather see the Ravens play explosive on offense with passing down the field, mistakes and all.

In Boller's last game, I didn't mind the INT (which Mason called for the ball when double covered) if it means that Boller connects on a 80 yards play to D Will

Overall, vets are going to get next year to get another crack at it; then I want them gone.

And call me crazy, but I dont mind if Ogden retires, I actually prefer that. I need someone who's heart is in it, additionally, I want youth on the o-line. Some guys that are young and need to craft their legacy (like Boller). Ogden already has his legacy and doesn't need much to improve on it.

Well at least your honest.

You don't blame Heap or Clayton for their fumbles. Can you not see the stunning irony in your statement?

You seem to want to excuse a Boller INT because Mason called for the ball? Should we give them each a half on INT? How about the QB makes the right decision based on if the pass should be thrown.

Seeing as you want to play explosive football despite mistakes, I'd suggest you take a look at how that works. See the Oakland Raiders.

You would prefer that Ogden, who played his best football in years in 2006, retire. That's great Dave. Are you insinuating that his heart hasn't or won't be in it if he decides to come back? Of all people, Ogden worries me the least in that respect. He has his money and he has his legacy. If he comes back, it's for one thing. And that's a ring. You better believe his heart will be in it.

Speaking of legacy's. Maybe you should take a step back from talking about a legacy for Boller. How about some semblance of consistency first? That would be nice.

PP

copenhaggard

01-22-2007, 05:00 PM

2 INTs that were drive killers and relatively unforced . . . and no explosive play other than the Mark Clayton catch that was fumbled . . .

Is there blame on Heap and Clayton? Of course. But Heap was taking a hard hit, and I can't blame him. Clayton, I can't really blame him either.

If those picks McNair threw were under duress or something, I'd be more likely to give him a muligan.

Overall, my gripe is that I'd rather see the Ravens play explosive on offense with passing down the field, mistakes and all.

In Boller's last game, I didn't mind the INT (which Mason called for the ball when double covered) if it means that Boller connects on a 80 yards play to D Will

And call me crazy, but I dont mind if Ogden retires, I actually prefer that. I need someone who's heart is in it, additionally, I want youth on the o-line. Some guys that are young and need to craft their legacy (like Boller). Ogden already has his legacy and doesn't need much to improve on it.

I don't see the correlation with less blame because an error was "unforced". Heap tucks the ball in better, he doesn't fumble. Same with Clayton. The blame is equal. You are saying since the defender made a great play, the turnover counts "less", or less blame should be handed out. Well, what if the defender made a great play on the McNair picks, or the coach called a superb defensive play, or our offensive play was horrible for the coverage we were given.

It's funny that 1/2 of our total offensive turnovers weren't as "bad" as McNair's two turnovers, when they all were the same thing. The culmination of those turnovers and lack of execution of the gameplan, all led to a truly disgusting offensive performance.

It's all subjective, and no matter what, 1/2 of our turnovers were our receivers fumbling, and both were drive/big play killers.

I love how you mention the Boller pick, but then "shift" part of the blame to Mason, because he called for the ball. Yeah, it's Mason's fault that Boller threw it. Real subtle there Dave.

Let me ask you, how can you tell Ogden's heart is not in the game? He has never been a vocal fiery guy, so I can't see how you believe his heart wasn't there. If his heart isn't in it, he won't be coming back, so I don't see how you'd think he'd come back if his heart wasn't in it. About youth on the OLINE...I didn't see much of an indication that Ogden's old age really caught up to this year either. If anyone, Ogden would be the last person on the line I'd want gone. He has provided stablity at a premiere position for a long time.

Yeah, about the Boller legacy thing...He has a legacy, and the FO doesn't seem too enthuased about it. Maybe he'll get another chance, but it depends on the draft, and how his contract is handled.

ClericBlackDave

01-23-2007, 02:08 AM

purplepoe

01-23-2007, 07:09 AM

I see we're still down to make excuses for the McNair miscues.

There was nothing there on those plays besides McNair missing open guys. And there wasn't pressure on either occasion. Thats an unforced error to me.

Heap and Clayton I can give a mulligan because and least defenders were hitting them and whatnot.

Re: Ogden, i stick to my point on that. I'd rather have terry in there and start Chester and Brown and maybe even another new player than to bring back Flynn and Mulitalo as starters just to beg Ogden to come back.

If he really wants to play for us, cool; but if there are requirements or caveats, it just wreaks to me of his heart not being in it

My fear with the vets, especially the ones that really have established legacies, is that they dont really REALLY care what happens one way or the other

Same fear I have with McNair. Nothing I've seen or heard says to me that the 2 INTs 170 were really bothering McNair, even after the fact. The man will retire a Titan. Tough for me think that his career in Baltimore will be his defining moment.

What the hell are you talking about? YOU are the ones making excuses for the other guys.

McNair played like shit Dave. We are all acknowleding that. What you are doing is not acknowledging the other players' mistakes and how that affect the game. You flat out said it. I have NEVER said McNair played well nor have I made any excuse for his play.

Now you are just making stuff up in your head about Ogden. Requirements and caveats? What, just because he wants to see how the offseason pans out as a part of his decision means his heart isn't in it? Just stop. It's embarassing that you are questioning a guy like Ogden.

And what do you want McNair to do? All you've done is brought up how he's really a Titan and not a "real" Raven. What do you want? Different quotes? Here is what he said after the game.

"To end on a shorter note than you intended ... it's very heartbreaking," McNair said. "Do I feel bad? Of course I feel bad. I feel bad that we lost. I feel the way I played. There can only be one champion. Unfortunately, this year isn't our year."

"Our defense played great and they gave us a lot of opportunities," said McNair, who was 18-for-29 for 173 yards and a quarterback rating of 49.9. "We didn't take advantage of those opportunities and it starts with the quarterback. When you get in that position, you have to go out and maintain the momentum that the defense gave us. We didn't do it offensively due to the turnovers we had."

"This is a bitter taste," McNair said. "We've got to live [with] this the whole offseason. I think we're going to be even more hungry. We had a good run for the first year I was here. And we're looking for better things."

WHAT ELSE DO YOU WANT.

You are just looking to bag McNair and you have from Day one. I don't care if you bought a McNair jersey. I know what you're posted and what I've read. Stop with this crap about you supporting him etc....

Like others have said, so what if he's gonna retire a Titan? Rod Woodson will always be thought of as a Steeler, but his only ring is as a Raven. Sharpe is Bronco but he's got a ring here with us.

Get over it.

PP

festivus

01-23-2007, 07:25 AM

I see we're still down to make excuses for the McNair miscues.
No one's making excuses. They were mistakes.

There was nothing there on those plays besides McNair missing open guys. And there wasn't pressure on either occasion. Thats an unforced error to me.
The unforced/forced distinction is not helpful.

Heap and Clayton I can give a mulligan because and least defenders were hitting them and whatnot.
(a) Defenders are often hitting receivers. Receivers are *expected* to put away and to hold the ball.

(b) I would very much like to know what you mean by 'whatnot'.

Re: Ogden, i stick to my point on that. I'd rather have terry in there and start Chester and Brown and maybe even another new player than to bring back Flynn and Mulitalo as starters just to beg Ogden to come back.
I personally would drive to Jonathan Ogden's house (in Nevada) and beg him to come back if I thought it would make the difference. In the history of football he is one of *the premier* offensive linemen, coming off one of his best seasons. That's a fact. You are talking about a guy who is so good that, even in the fickle world of the NFL, Brian Billick calls the Pro Bowl the Jonathan Ogden Invitational, because he *always goes*.

If he really wants to play for us, cool; but if there are requirements or caveats, it just wreaks to me of his heart not being in it
Point to me the time when his heart wasn't in it, ever. This is not a guy who takes plays off. He won't come back if his heart isn't in it, I assure you.

My fear with the vets, especially the ones that really have established legacies, is that they dont really REALLY care what happens one way or the other
On the contrary, it is often the veterans who understand that personal goals must be sacrificed from time to time for a winning team. Just ask Michael McCrary.

Same fear I have with McNair. Nothing I've seen or heard says to me that the 2 INTs 170 were really bothering McNair, even after the fact. The man will retire a Titan. Tough for me think that his career in Baltimore will be his defining moment.
If you think he doesn't, after all his years of personal accomplishments, want a Super Bowl Ring, you're just wrong.

copenhaggard

01-23-2007, 07:49 AM

Heap and Clayton I can give a mulligan because and least defenders were hitting them and whatnot.

Since your long-winded post was already dissected by two other people, I'm not going to bother, but this line sticks out to me.

Definitions of mulligan (http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&q=define%3A+mulligan&btnG=Google+Search)

-A second shot permitted without penalty.
-The chance to replay your last shot.
-A second shot that is allowed to be taken in friendly play when the player has "muffed" (see above) the first one.

There isn't any do-overs, or replays, this is football. Clearly Clayton/Heap fucked up as much on each of their turnovers as McNair did with his two. There is no way to dictate what kind of turnover is what. It's a turnover, and as I've already said, those turnovers negated a big play, and the beginning of a drive, and also gave Indy the ball in our zone already.

Now, explain to me where those turnovers were "not as bad" as McNair's. McNair's turnovers were both horrible mistakes, and drive killers. Clayton/Heaps were the same thing. I don't see where because a defender hits you makes the mistake any easier to swallow, or equates to less of a turnover. Unless players didn't start hitting until the postseason, I fail to see why you should get less blame because the defender made a play on the ball. The defenders clearly beat Heap/Clayton, as well as McNair(x2).

So again, why do Heap/Clayton get a "mulligan" on their turnovers. What makes them so special compared to McNair?

Raveninwoodlawn

01-23-2007, 05:17 PM

That's it...Dave is officially on my ignore list.

FadeToBlack

01-23-2007, 08:17 PM

I see we're still down to make excuses for the McNair miscues.

This team wasn't going anywhere before it signed McNair anyway. Our defense and special teams has wasted away for years under an inept offense. To act like our defense was the reason this team did so well is nonsense. It was the offense that made the difference. Any good Ravens fan knows it. The fact we're even debating this subject at all makes me wonder what other topics we shall indulge ourselves in. For instance:

"Is water wet?" - The age old question
"Is their life on the moon?" - Another question you and I may tackle at some point
"Does the sun make the earth warmer?" - Again, this argument certainly has it's detractors

I say we skip past all this McNair mumbo jumbo and jump feet first in one of the above 3.

darb72

01-23-2007, 08:38 PM

This team wasn't going anywhere before it signed McNair anyway.

Really? Can you prove that? Oh wait a minute. You don't have to prove anything because your gut is always right. My bad.

Our defense and special teams has wasted away for years under an inept offense.
And boy howdy did McNair ever come through when it mattered.

To act like our defense was the reason this team did so well is nonsense.
Do you mind if I save that as my quote? That may be the single dumbest statement I've ever read and I want everyone to share in the stupidity.

Fewest points given up.
Fewest yards given up.
Fewest FD per game given up.
Second most TOs forced.

Man the defense just sucked didn't they?

FadeToBlack

01-23-2007, 08:48 PM

Really? Can you prove that? Oh wait a minute. You don't have to prove anything because your gut is always right. My bad.

Not always. But usually.

Those who don't trust their own instincts are those whom are most dependent on fact finding. :thumbup:

It's easy to use facts any way you want to support your argument, no matter how wrong your answer might be.

Unfortunately this isn't math class. Their is no perfect formula for a right answer. There is simply a wrong answer and a right one.

I prefer to use the K.I.S.S. method myself. Keep it simple, Stupid. The game of football gets overanalyzed. People like you are the biggest culprits. You have absolutely no confidence in your instincts that you've completely betrayed any feelings you get while watching the games, relying solely on your own hatred of some other part of the game or the players themselves. I wouldn't doubt for a second if the latter were actually the case. And this may be true for quite a few of your kind.

darb72

01-23-2007, 09:27 PM

Those who don't trust their own instincts are those whom are most dependent on fact finding
It's been my experience that people who are to stupid or lazy to bother looking for the facts are those who are dependent on gut instinct.

It's easy to use facts any way you want to support your argument, no matter how wrong your answer might be.
Huh? Facts are always correct. That's why they're called facts.

Unfortunately this isn't math class. Their is no perfect formula for a right answer. There is simply a wrong answer and a right one.
So you can't prove it? Not really surprised.

The game of football gets overanalyzed. People like you are the biggest culprits.
Again, huh? Numbers are an important part of football. I blew out my knee and lost my speed. I couldn't play as a FB anymore so I bulked up and moved to the line. From a 4.6 40 to a 5.6 40. Those are numbers that don't lie.

You have absolutely no confidence in your instincts that you've completely betrayed any feelings you get while watching the games
Actually I use stats to prove what my gut tells me. I noticed the offense improved quite a bit during the Saints game. I noticed that we we're rolling the QB out and not giving the pass rush a stationary target. I proved it by going back and watching game film then I checked the stats to see about the stats.

You see, I don't like making unfounded statements. I think they only serve to make a person look foolish.

relying solely on your own hatred of some other part of the game or the players themselves
That's pretty hypocritical of you. Of course, given the type of... people... y'all are, that's not really a surprise.