Rex Grossman Is Why Kyle Boller Should Not Start

[PurpleRulz]

Looking at Rex Grossman fumble and bumble around makes me think of Kyle Boller. For every one good/great pass there are five or six piss poor passes.

Yeah, you'll say "well Grossman was good enough to get the Bears to the Super Bowl." So what? With the great defense and great special teams, I could have QB the Bears to the Super Bowl. Grossman, however, lacks that intelligence to take the Bears all the way. I guarantee that the Bears don't sniff the playoffs next year.

Getting back to Boller, you want to know why Boller is not the answer? In addition to looking at the many Boller specials over the past four seasons, look at Boller's brother, Rex Grossman.

[copenhaggard]

Yeah, but Grossman takes shots down the field. Grossman makes the Bears a more "explosive" offense.

[OriAl]

Boller is better than Grossman.

[PurpleRulz]

Yeah, but Grossman takes shots down the field. Grossman makes the Bears a more "explosive" offense.

When? The guy had game passing for as low as 36 yards. The Bears were explosive because of a defense that can score and a strong return man that could get 7 with a touch of the ball. The Bears offense was not as explosive this season as it appeared. This game shows that.

[copenhaggard]

When? The guy had game passing for as low as 36 yards. The Bears were explosive because of a defense that can score and a strong return man that could get 7 with a touch of the ball. The Bears offense was not as explosive this season as it appeared. This game shows that.


Uh, yeah, I forgot the :261695: ...

[PurpleRulz]

Uh, yeah, I forgot the :261695: ...



:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Got ya.

[F Angelos]

What does Grossman have to do with Boller? Any reason to take a shot at Kyle I guess?!?! I didn't here you say we should start Boller after watching a young Roethlisburger win the Super Bowl? What's the difference?

[Ravenbird]

This is foolish. Boller was never inconsistent like Grossman. Boller just has come on of late, he has never regressed. Grossman has been good and bad, good and bad......

[festivus]

Copied from the QB debate forum, clearly I should have posted here instead:

People following this thread will remember (I hope) I have always said McNair should be the starter and *will* be the starter. A person arguing to the contrary is like the dog barking out the window at the passing postman. Barking does not change the reality outside the dog's house.

'Nuff said about that.

Concerning Grossman - he will never be as good as Kyle Boller is now. Boller has a few decent qualities and one of them is that he's *tough*. He will slip and fall on his rear end but he is capable on the next play of delivering a perfect spiral down the field to his man. He does not get rattled, and Rex Grossman over the course of this season and this past week, and this game tonight, looks like a head case. One or two bad breaks and Grossman is worthless the rest of the game.

They are both strong armed. Give my team the one who is strong willed.

[RockyMRaven]

What does Grossman have to do with Boller? Any reason to take a shot at Kyle I guess?!?! I didn't here you say we should start Boller after watching a young Roethlisburger win the Super Bowl? What's the difference?


Exactly. It doesn't take much for someone to grab an opportunity to unload on Boller and try to diminish him. Grossman is Grossman and Boller is Boller. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses. Particularly after a year of being able to learn from a veteran like McNair, why assume that Boller will never improve?

[Baltoman07]

Kyle never folds...say what you want...hate him all you want...Kyle has NEVER folded his tent and looked beaten like Grossman did. Grossman was beaten and his team was only down 2 points! What a sorry excuse to take a shot at Boller.

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

What does Grossman have to do with Boller? Any reason to take a shot at Kyle I guess?!?! I didn't here you say we should start Boller after watching a young Roethlisburger win the Super Bowl? What's the difference?

:iagree:

[Art-Florida]

Is there any event in the course of human history that will go unoticed by the haters to take a shot at Kyle?

"Only you can prevent forest fires" ...and Kyle Boller probably started them all.

Sheesh, give it a rest.

[darb72]

So what? With the great defense and great special teams, I could have QB the Bears to the Super Bowl.

Yeah and with a great defense and so-so special teams, McNair couldn't win a single play-off game. Wonder what that says about Noodle Arm?

[highwater]

Getting back to Boller, you want to know why Boller is not the answer? In addition to looking at the many Boller specials over the past four seasons, look at Boller's brother, Rex Grossman.

This is either a really poor attempt at irony or it's one of the dumbest thread-starters ever. Boller's not the answer because Grossman had a bad Super Bowl -- sure. Makes plenty of sense.

[Mobtown]

Grossman has something like 11 fewer starts than Boller, has a nearly identical passer rating.

I would like to know how anyone can say that Boller > Grossman.

From what I saw last night those two could be identical twins.

[Hook]

These are the results you get when Boller plays in the rain.
The same type of play you seen from rex grossman's superbowl
I remember the Pats game when Kyle played in
and it was kind of the same type of QB play
Sloppy
careless
and
Mistake ridden.

The Similarities are there.
You just need to open your eyes
and look.
I think some of the boller supporters should acknoweglde the similarites and move forward.
It wont hurt anyone to do so.

Ozzie says we are going to be looking
for a qb
to be our future
He's just not sure
if he is will draft one
or bring one in from another club

I think our days of talking about Kyle
are coming to an end

[festivus]

Grossman has something like 11 fewer starts than Boller, has a nearly identical passer rating.

I would like to know how anyone can say that Boller > Grossman.

From what I saw last night those two could be identical twins.

Over the years Boller has shown some improvement, and has *always* shown the ability to brush off the bad breaks and recover quickly. I am comfortable with him as our backup and I think he will continue to improve, *as he always has*.

Grossman looks like he's getting worse, not better, and appears throughout the season to be able to come completely unglued.

That is how I can say Boller > Grossman.

[festivus]

These are the results you get when Boller plays in the rain.
The same type of play you seen from rex grossman's superbowl
I remember the Pats game when Kyle played in
and it was kind of the same type of QB play
Sloppy
careless
and
Mistake ridden.

The Similarities are there.
You just need to open your eyes
and look.
I think some of the boller supporters should acknoweglde the similarites and move forward.
It wont hurt anyone to do so.

Ozzie says we are going to be looking
for a qb
to be our future
He's just not sure
if he is will draft one
or bring one in from another club

I think our days of talking about Kyle
are coming to an end

Cool! Poetry.

I agree our days of talking about Kyle are coming to an end, unless they extend him, which they might & might not. But we will know this offseason, not next, whether the FO is considering Boller for the role of QOTF. I'm guessing no extension & he won't be back, but I'd much rather have him then Grossman as I've said now a couple of times.

[jonboy79]

Yeah and with a great defense and so-so special teams, McNair couldn't win a single play-off game. Wonder what that says about Noodle Arm?

It says that it would take a hell of an effort to beat the Colts this year in the playoffs, that defense came to play.

BTW Boller and Grossman are very similar, both need some time on thed bench to observe. If Griese had come in around week 6- 8 the bears would have been better off. Now next year if McNair goes down around game 6-8 I feel confident that Boller could come in and shine and show his true potential.

[Mobtown]

Over the years Boller has shown some improvement, and has *always* shown the ability to brush off the bad breaks and recover quickly. I am comfortable with him as our backup and I think he will continue to improve, *as he always has*.

Grossman looks like he's getting worse, not better, and appears throughout the season to be able to come completely unglued.

That is how I can say Boller > Grossman.


And Boller has been consistant?

Sorry dude, but the numbers just don't lie. Let's look at the only two years where the player started all 16 games...

Grossman:
2006att480comp262pct54.6yrds3193ypa6.65TD23INT20QB73.9


Boller:
2004att464comp258pct55.6yrds2559ypa5.52TD13INT11QB70.9


Has Grossman been inconsistant? Definately....but so has our man Boller.

There is simply no difinitive proof that one is better than the other. In fact, the evidence (subjective and factual) shows that they are damn similar.

You can't even give Boller a point because he did not have the luxury of sitting on the sidelines for 2 years. Those extra 11 actual games should put him in a class above Grossman...

Boller = Grossman maybe

[festivus]

> And Boller has been consistent?
I'm not saying he's been consistent. I'm also not saying he should be our starter.

I'm just saying two things about him:
1. Boller has shown gradual improvement over the time we've seen him.
2. Boller has always shown the ability to shake off a bad break and recover.

Concerning Grossman, time will tell if he improves. I could be wrong, but it appears to me he does *not* have the proverbial amnesia required in professional sports. If he gets a bad break or two then he's done for the game.

Career qb rating statistics for two young quarterbacks are meaningless, insofar as (a) the sample size is small, (b) they don't show change over time, and (c) they don't show patterns within games, which is what I've been talking about anyway.

> There is simply no definitive proof that one is better than the other.
Definitive? We are comparing two different young quarterbacks. They really haven't got much in common besides draft class. Considering they are apples and oranges, I think the standard of "definitive proof" is asking a lot.

> In fact, the evidence (subjective and factual) shows that they are
> damn similar.
What subjective evidence? What factual evidence? My argument was about in-game breakdowns by Grossman, and the absence of the same by Boller. It was my subjective evidence based on my observations. You can disagree with your own subjective evidence, but your factual evidence of career qb ratings is irrelevant to what I wrote.

[darb72]

Sorry dude, but the numbers just don't lie. Let's look at the only two years where the player started all 16 games...
Fair enough. Let's look at another QBs stats from his first full season as a starter.

415 attempts
216 complete for 52% accuracy

2665 yards
6.42 YPA
14 TDs
13 INTs

70.4 QB rating.

I guess Steve McNair is the same as Boller and Grossman. Stats don't lie after all.

[ExiledRaven]

Honestly, you're all going to hate me...I'm no hater/hugger or anything...

But I've got a feeling Boller is going to be given another shot once McNair is out after next year. There is also the potential you could see a guy like David Carr get a shot in Baltimore or the chance to compete with Boller for the job.

We're not going to be in position to draft a top-flight prospect unless we really bomb next year.

[Mobtown]

Fair enough. Let's look at another QBs stats from his first full season as a starter.

415 attempts
216 complete for 52% accuracy

2665 yards
6.42 YPA
14 TDs
13 INTs

70.4 QB rating.

I guess Steve McNair is the same as Boller and Grossman. Stats don't lie after all.


I would agree with this argument if McNair had not been so successful in the years following. In fact, I am not arguing that Boller wont end up having a better career than Mac.

What I am arguing is this idea that Boller is somehow better than Grossman, when there is no actual evidence. So far, after one complete season, they both are equally (or too close to distinguish) bad.

Of course an opposite argument can also be made that Grossman hasn't shown himself to be much better than Boller.

[Ravenbird]

And Boller has been consistant?

Sorry dude, but the numbers just don't lie. Let's look at the only two years where the player started all 16 games...

Grossman:
2006att480comp262pct54.6yrds3193ypa6.65TD23INT20QB73.9


Boller:
2004att464comp258pct55.6yrds2559ypa5.52TD13INT11QB70.9


Has Grossman been inconsistant? Definately....but so has our man Boller.

There is simply no difinitive proof that one is better than the other. In fact, the evidence (subjective and factual) shows that they are damn similar.

You can't even give Boller a point because he did not have the luxury of sitting on the sidelines for 2 years. Those extra 11 actual games should put him in a class above Grossman...

Boller = Grossman maybe

Boller 04- 2nd year in the NFL
Grossman 06- 4th year in the NFL
This displays exactly what the Boller Bashers just dont get- you can't compare a young QB to one with more experince. Most qbs take time to progress, and many have bad starts. What you want to see is progress. Boller has shown his best most recently- in his past five regular season games, as well as the preseason. All but one of those games were impressive. We have not seen him get worse since- indicating that he might much better.

[darb72]

What I am arguing is this idea that Boller is somehow better than Grossman, when there is no actual evidence. So far, after one complete season, they both are equally (or too close to distinguish) bad.
There are only two things that we can say for a fact Boller is better than Grossman.

-Boller has a better arm. Of course that doesn't make a better QB, but it is a part the QB package.

-Grossman went to Florida. Really bad QBs come from Florida. Of course Boller is a Tedford product and they don't turn out all that great.

[highwater]

I would agree with this argument if McNair had not been so successful in the years following. In fact, I am not arguing that Boller wont end up having a better career than Mac.

What I am arguing is this idea that Boller is somehow better than Grossman, when there is no actual evidence.

You must be joking -- you are not arguing that Boller won't end up having a better career than McNair, but you are arguing that Boller is not better than Grossman??? So, should we infer that you think Grossman will have a better career than McNair? I doubt it.

Grossman could get better, like Boller has gotten better, but right now I'd take Boller over Grossman in a heartbeat.

[festivus]

:iagree:

Nailed it.

[Mobtown]

You must be joking -- you are not arguing that Boller won't end up having a better career than McNair, but you are arguing that Boller is not better than Grossman??? So, should we infer that you think Grossman will have a better career than McNair? I doubt it.

Grossman could get better, like Boller has gotten better, but right now I'd take Boller over Grossman in a heartbeat.


Comparing Boller or Grossman to McNair is ludacris. Mac has started 3x the number of regular season games and has shown that he can win in the playoffs. They are barely in the same league.

Boller getting better? Sure, OK...but what does that have to do with comparing Boller to Grossman now?

[Ravenbird]

You must not be watching the same Boller as the rest of the world buddy. Boller has had only a handful of really good games and only once in his career two really good ones in a row (Green Bay and Minnesota) both of which were home games against NFC teams, and followed up by an absolutely atrocious performance against the Browns which cemented his demotion to a backup. So how in the hell is that not inconsistent or regressing?

Grossman and Boller are two friggin peas in pod.

One game is not called regressing. Every qb has bad games (even Steve McNair - see playoff game aganst the Colts- much worse than Boller in Cleveland BTW). The Browns game was not atrocious either. Factoring in the following preseason and two games that he played in the regular season you have to wonder why the only thing you can focus is on his one bad game in that stretch?
That is not called inconsistant.

[festivus]

Tex, they are not the same. Did you not read my posts, or do you just disagree?

Kyle *is* inconsistent, but he has gotten better over time. Rex has started fewer games and he may become more consistent, but so far he has only regressed as far as I can tell.

One thing Kyle has always been able to do, is to shake off mistakes and come back and play well. He does not get rattled, and Rex does.

That makes him a better quarterback.

Would it be too much to ask for you to stop laughing at everyone you disagree with? You *do* understand you are in a very small minority, so you end up laughing at pretty much everybody who bothers to respond to you, don't you?

[Gwaihir]

How can you possibly not view Boller as wildly inconsistent? :insane: That would be like saying the Eiffel Tower isn't tilted!!:laugh: Gimme a break that has to be the most ludicrous thing I have ever read on any forum right up there with Boller would have been a better choice to QB the Ravens this past season than McNair against the Colts!!!:rolling:

So what is it that you are saying, Boller is extremely consistent! Since the Eiffel tower IS NOT tilted I assume you mean the opposite of your statement. Or is it that you just don't know what you're talking about!

[Greg]

Tex is going to take a run at the Eiffel Tower doing his best Don Quixote and he is determined to make that damn thing lean just like that damn tower in Rome...Venice...err...Pisa?

Oh, and Tex, the only lean to the Eiffel Tower is when the girders exposed to the sun expand due to heat and grow a few centimeters more than the unheated ones. Something not perceptible to the human eye.

[Gwaihir]

Oh, so now the Eiffel tower is perfectly straight? It's about as straight as Boller and Grossman's passes!:rolleyes:

Uhh! Yes it is Straight!!! I think you're talking about the tower in Pisa,Italy, not France! They're not even in the same country!! But, then again I'm not really sure what you're talking about since you seem to make up you own facts as you go along!

[FellsPointRaven]

I normally try to avoid this part of the forum, but as the Leaning Tower of Pisa/Eiffel Tower mix-up made me do this at my desk, I must add a:

:grbac:

Good job Tex!

[Mobtown]

http://a2.vox.com/6a00ccff85502e985d00cd96fc1bba4cd5-500pi (http://a2.vox.com/6a00ccff85502e985d00cd96fc1bba4cd5-pi)



OMG, maybe Tex is right!

[ClericBlackDave]

One game is not called regressing. Every qb has bad games (even Steve McNair - see playoff game aganst the Colts- much worse than Boller in Cleveland BTW). The Browns game was not atrocious either. Factoring in the following preseason and two games that he played in the regular season you have to wonder why the only thing you can focus is on his one bad game in that stretch?
That is not called inconsistant.


See I think this is the thing.


The hater will never just look at the stats for Kyle's last 10-12 games because he has a QB rating of about 100 and way more TDs than INT, and quite a few games with 3 TDs and 300 yards.


They want to look back to '04 when he was throwing to 1) NOT Todd Heap 2) Travesty Taylor 3) Kevin Johnson? 4) Aligator Arms Clarence Moore


And the o-line by far was shittier then. We lacked a RT and RG


But in any case, there is a lot to be said for Boller's progress. I think the extension of a contract to Boller or not extending it will come down to exactly what Newsome says it will come down to: how much more we see of Kyle.


What is his preseason play like next year? And, what is his play like in relief of McNair for injury reasons?


If the 2nd half of last season AND this season is any indicator, Kyle will continue to come in and be efficient with QB ratings around 100


And at that point the FO will be hard pressed to think it can draft a rookie who will do better. They will also be hard pressed to decide to give up on the investment, just to watch him go somewhere like, say, carolina with a Steve Smith and rip shit up.


Thats just my .02 cents.


Then again, I'm a Boller fan and I know that. Feel free to flame away.

[festivus]

Good lord, I thought I must have been misunderstanding Tex, but you all are right, he was mixing two famous towers. As it turns out, the Eiffel Tower and the Leaning Tower of Pisa have pretty much one thing in common, just like Kyle Boller and Rex Grossman: they are on the same continent as each other.

By way of demonstration:

Here's the Eiffel Tower:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f8/Eiffel_tower.jpg/200px-Eiffel_tower.jpg

From the top, ask yourself whether it is straight:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/eb/PhotoB_409.jpg/350px-PhotoB_409.jpg

And here's the Leaning Tower of Pisa:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f2/Leaning_Tower_of_Pisa.jpg/250px-Leaning_Tower_of_Pisa.jpg

"HTH," as they say.

[darb72]

Oh, so now the Eiffel tower is perfectly straight? It's about as straight as Boller and Grossman's passes!
Yeah Tex, about that whole senility thing. You might want to get it looked at.

[purplepoe]

See I think this is the thing.


The hater will never just look at the stats for Kyle's last 10-12 games because he has a QB rating of about 100 and way more TDs than INT, and quite a few games with 3 TDs and 300 yards.


If the 2nd half of last season AND this season is any indicator, Kyle will continue to come in and be efficient with QB ratings around 100


Kyle Boller had quite a few games with 300 yds? You mind showing me the boxscore to those games?

The Cincy game, after down being down 34-0, throwing 2 picks, and fumbling 3 times, he tossed some TDs. Sorry if that game doesn't exactly drum up support from me.

After that game he had a horrid game at Denver, 2 very nice games vs Min and GB and then another horrid game at Cleveland.

That is exactly why we went out and got McNair.


If the 2nd half of last season AND this season is any indicator, Kyle will continue to come in and be efficient with QB ratings around 100

Say what? The 2nd half of last season he had ratings of 30.1, 67.2, 81.6, 70.0, 65.2, 136.8, 113.5, 31.1.

This year, in basically 2 games, his rating was 97 and 112.8. He played better than he had. We can argue the tipped balls in the Carolina game until we're blue in the face.

You think he can come in a just throw up 100 rating games whenever he wants? How about on the road?

Look, I like Boller as a backup. He did exactly what we needed him to do this season.

That's it.

PP

Edit: I'd take Boller over Grossman.

[Baltoman07]

Tex.....you sure look foolish pal!

[Ravenbird]

The Home/Road thing is not even worth talking about. The reason why Kyle has not played well on the road even since the GB game (not including preseason when he looked great on the road) is because he has only played in one game on the road since, and it happend to be a bad game for him (and the whole team). Yes, a younger qb will have a harder time on the road than at home, but if anything can be learned it can. Also, I challange anyone to find a qb in NFL history that could always do well at home but not on the road- its a non issue.

I do wonder why the Boller bashers are convinced that he can't be a good qb. What have you seen that convince you that he is not like the many qb's that come on late, in light of:

1 ) It is very common in the NFL for the qb to not play well untill he has more time in the league. There have been may qb's that have been written off and then had great careers.
2) It is more likely for that to happen to a player like Boller who was a late bloomer in college.
3) His last 5 games have been by far the best five game stretch in his career.
4) His preseason this year was also his best by far.
This is not to say that he will be a great qb for sure, my only question is why are they convinced that he won't be.

[festivus]

Tex.....you sure look foolish pal!

If you go around saying the same thing over and over, and you don't say it well, and you mock people who disagree with you, I guess you don't get much slack when you step in your own pile of poo.

[JettaPA]

The bottom line is this, we haven't seen enough of Boller one way or the other this season to truely know where he is at. On one hand, you can't look at his 2004 and 2005 seasons and say thats him, and he will never improve. ON the other hand, I don't think you can say exactly how much he's improved and that its enough to warrant a contract extension. Right now, Boller is valuable to this team in his current capacity, that's why I wouldn't trade him, you won't get back the value needed for next season right now. I trust ozzie will do the right thing by either letting him walk or signing him to an extension.

[festivus]

I trust ozzie will do the right thing by either letting him walk or signing him to an extension.
:iagree:

Welcome to the boards. A very sensible post.

[highwater]

I am better with US landmarks!:) (Since I have never been to Europe):hammer:

LOL @ Tex -- I haven't been to Europe either, but I still manage to know the difference between the Eiffel Tower and the Leaning Tower of Pisa.

You know as much about famous landmarks as you do about QBs. But hey, it was good for a laugh.

[ClericBlackDave]

My fifth grade teacher would be shocked if she was still alive


So whats that put you in now, the 9th grade? Sorry i just had to say it. At some points I wonder about the ages of half the people i talk to on here.



Or fleecing some team like Carolina out of a third round draft pick for him!:)


They'd be fleecing us. Go find an NFL QB with Kyle's experience and stats over his last 10 games in the 3rd round of the upcoming draft. Not close to an even trade. You'd be pressed to find a decent BACKUP QB in the 3rd round of this upcoming draft.


And this makes even less sense when, if we don't extend Kyle, we're likely to get a decent (4th round) compensatory pick for him.


vis a vis what purplepoe said previously, I would point out the better play of our o-line for our progress, and for the regresses when they played poorly (like when JO wiped out a TD in Cleveland being downfield [noob mistake] )


No-one knows who the true Boller will be or whether we'll ever see that IMHO. I dont think Ozzie knows. The question is whether you invest time after this year with Boller.


I'm a fan of him, and I say yes. Many haters will say no.


But I dont know what free agent or draft pick after McNair will be better than him.


Also, I'm convince that we're already far more explosive with Boller in there than a McNair or another vet. Its a matter to playing to that strength. I think when you see how the gameplan changes when Boller comes it, its obvious that Billick/Ozzie understand this.



If Boller does become an above average starter consistently, it will be in a Brett Favre Mold, not a Peyton Manning type. He'll be the type you have to let sling the ball down the field.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Both are mediocre at best IMHO, but to be fair to Grossman, he still doesn't have as much game experiance as Boller.

[Ravenbird]

Both are mediocre at best IMHO, but to be fair to Grossman, he still doesn't have as much game experiance as Boller.

....And to be more fair to Boller, Grossman's game experince has come later on in his time in the nfl, something some fans just dont understand.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

There is no substitute for game experiance...no matter how long you are in the NFL...especially if your time is mostly spent with rehab...not necessarily practice.

[PurpleRulz]

What Kyle Boller is? He's a very good backup QB that can come in relief of the starting QB and give you a respectable to good outing, and that's not a bad thing. Nothing more. Anyone that thinks he is more than that is just folling himself.

Boller will have a nice long career as a backup QB, but he no franchise QB nor is he even an adequate starting NFL QB. If the Ravens can get something for him this offseason, then they'd be fools not to strike while Boller's value is high.