*Reported* RFA tenders of interest.....

[B-more Ravor]

*FINAL*

Ravens:

Gaither: 1st round tender
Moll: low tender (6th round comp)
Burgess: low tender (6th round comp)
Cundiff: low tender (no comp)
Koch: 2nd round tender
Beck: low tender (3rd round comp)
Le'Ron McClain: 1st round tender
Dwan Landry: 2nd round tender
Edgar Jones: No tender
Fab Washington: 2nd round tender
Chester: low tender (3rd round comp)
D Williams: low tender (4th round comp)
T. Smith: low tender (5th round comp)
M. Clayton: 2nd round tender
M. Yanda: 2nd round tender
A. Barnes: low tender (4th round comp)
A. Terry: No tender

[B-more Ravor]

Beck got the low tender, which usually comes with compensation of the round in which he was originally drafted - 2nd round. However, because Gaither received an "upgraded tender" (1st round tender for a 5th round pick), giving the low tender to players drafted in the 1st or 2nd round acts to reduce the attached compensation by a round - hence the 3rd round compensation.

[B-more Ravor]

Edgar Jones was non-tendered. He'll be a FA on Friday, unless he agrees to a veteran minimum deal to stay.

[psuasskicker]

Are these facts, or are they speculation?

Cause if it's locked in, it's interesting we gave Gaither a 1st rather than a 1st and 3rd. I would think we give him the latter if we want to lock him down. Giving him the 1st only makes it seem to me like we'd really like to have him back, but also wouldn't really mind all that much if someone signs him away from us.

It actually would be exceptionally beneficial to us if someone does. Not only do we get a first round pick, but we'd also get to sign a second FA for decent dollars since we lose one (based on restrictions under no CBA and our making the final 8 this year).

Not that I think anyone will. I don't think anyone will think he's worth a lot of money AND a first round pick. But hey, it'd be nice if someone stupid like the Redskins or Raiders came along and did it...

- C -

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Kind of surprised that they only gave Gaither the 1st only tender.

I don't really understand why giving one player a high tender means that others drafted in the first 2 rounds have thier compensation automatically lowered. If another team wants to sign guys...let them give up the draft picks.

[B-more Ravor]

Those are the ones that have been reported so far. Whether the reporting - mostly The Sun and Aaron Wilson - is accurate remains to be seen (but I would think it is).

[B-more Ravor]

It actually would be exceptionally beneficial to us if someone does. Not only do we get a first round pick, but we'd also get to sign a second FA for decent dollars since we lose one (based on restrictions under no CBA and our making the final 8 this year).


The Final 8 rules only deal with the loses of UFA, so if Gaither signed a RFA tender sheet, the only benefit to the Ravens would be the 1st round pick. It wouldn't allow us to sign another UFA under the Final 8 rules.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Are these facts, or are they speculation?

Cause if it's locked in, it's interesting we gave Gaither a 1st rather than a 1st and 3rd. I would think we give him the latter if we want to lock him down. Giving him the 1st only makes it seem to me like we'd really like to have him back, but also wouldn't really mind all that much if someone signs him away from us.

It actually would be exceptionally beneficial to us if someone does. Not only do we get a first round pick, but we'd also get to sign a second FA for decent dollars since we lose one (based on restrictions under no CBA and our making the final 8 this year).

Not that I think anyone will. I don't think anyone will think he's worth a lot of money AND a first round pick. But hey, it'd be nice if someone stupid like the Redskins or Raiders came along and did it...

- C -

Losing Gaither would not give us an extra "lose one, sign one" deal. We have to keep in mind the huge difference here between UFA...which Gaither is not...and RFA. There is no limit either way on RFA other than compensation. And honestly, there really is nothing out there for UFA that I would even want to break the bank for.

I know you are not a big Gaither fan PSU, but I wouldn't be so quick to let someone else sign him. So we move Oher over...who the hell is going to be our RT? Are we sure that whoever we draft is going to be as good as Gaither? I don't know the answer to that one.

I don't think you just say, hey we can lose a guy and just easily replace him with a draft pick.

[elland]

Losing Gaither would not give us an extra "lose one, sign one" deal. We have to keep in mind the huge difference here between UFA...which Gaither is not...and RFA. There is no limit either way on RFA other than compensation. And honestly, there really is nothing out there for UFA that I would even want to break the bank for.

I know you are not a big Gaither fan PSU, but I wouldn't be so quick to let someone else sign him. So we move Oher over...who the hell is going to be our RT? Are we sure that whoever we draft is going to be as good as Gaither? I don't know the answer to that one.

I don't think you just say, hey we can lose a guy and just easily replace him with a draft pick.

He probably loves Cousins and Oher, and another year with a lot of Chester or Terry as TE, and Flacco still beaten up.

[B-more Ravor]

Kind of surprised by Fabian Washington getting the 1st round tender?

Coming off of an injury, I doubt anyone would give up even a 2nd rounder.

[psuasskicker]

Losing Gaither would not give us an extra "lose one, sign one" deal. We have to keep in mind the huge difference here between UFA...which Gaither is not...and RFA. There is no limit either way on RFA other than compensation. And honestly, there really is nothing out there for UFA that I would even want to break the bank for.

I know you are not a big Gaither fan PSU, but I wouldn't be so quick to let someone else sign him. So we move Oher over...who the hell is going to be our RT? Are we sure that whoever we draft is going to be as good as Gaither? I don't know the answer to that one.

I don't think you just say, hey we can lose a guy and just easily replace him with a draft pick.

My bad on the final 8...I thought it was all inclusive, not just UFAs.

It's not that I don't like Gaither. I'm just being realistic here. A 1st round pick - particularly in this draft, which is said to be one of the best since the early 80s - is simply worth more than Gaither is. There are no less than three and up to six OTs in this draft I would take over Gaither.


He probably loves Cousins and Oher, and another year with a lot of Chester or Terry as TE, and Flacco still beaten up.

That's just stupid.

[psuasskicker]

Kind of surprised by Fabian Washington getting the 1st round tender?

Coming off of an injury, I doubt anyone would give up even a 2nd rounder.

You're arguing Fabian is NOT worth $2.5MM?

He's a starter on no less than half the NFL rosters. NFL starting cornerbacks do not command only $2.5MM per year in free agency. I thought this was a no-brainer, and was a little surprised he didn't get a 1st and 3rd tender.

- C -

[jonboy79]

My bad on the final 8...I thought it was all inclusive, not just UFAs.

It's not that I don't like Gaither. I'm just being realistic here. A 1st round pick - particularly in this draft, which is said to be one of the best since the early 80s - is simply worth more than Gaither is. There are no less than three and up to six OTs in this draft I would take over Gaither.



That's just stupid.

Wow, and I was going to say there wasn't a tackle in the draft I'd take over him.

Lose Gaither and we are looking at 8-8.

This is a medicore at best draft at the top, it is very strong through 100 or more prospects however.

[B-more Ravor]

You're arguing Fabian is NOT worth $2.5MM?


No, just saying that coming off of an injured knee, I wouldn't expect anyone to give up even a #2 for him.

Heck, we got him for a 4th and, even before he was hurt, he didn't exact set the world on fire last year. In fact, if Webb was healthy, I don't think Washingtonn would even start here next year. Now, I would agree that $2.5M still isn't a lot for a NB, but I just don't see anyone else valuing him worth giving up even a 2nd round pick.

[TheExtraPoint]

Wow, and I was going to say there wasn't a tackle in the draft I'd take over him.

Lose Gaither and we are looking at 8-8.

Rack that.

Letting Gaither go would be a serious mistake, IMO.

Fortunately, I don't see it happening.

[jonboy79]

Rack that.

Letting Gaither go would be a serious mistake, IMO.

Fortunately, I don't see it happening.

Maybe the first round tender will attract a reasonably matchable contract. The other team would be giving up a first AND the contract, we only have to match the contract. We should therefore have the inside track.

[Jeremiah W]

This may be a very good looking draft class but I am not sure I would want Okung over Gaither when you factor in the cost and the fact Gaither already knows what he has to do at this level and on this team.

How many guys taken in the top 10 in the last 3 years other than Jake Long or Joe Thomas would we rather have starting than Gaither?
Smith, Smith, Monroe, Albert, Jones? Those guys even play LT anymore?

Gaither has more value than he may seem. Look at how Flacco played and got hurt when he did. You can not just put any guy out there at RT vs Woodley and Mathis. We need Oher over there and him to get better at RT not swap back to LT and find a guy who can handle those elite pass rushers that now come off both edges consistantly.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

My bad on the final 8...I thought it was all inclusive, not just UFAs.

It's not that I don't like Gaither. I'm just being realistic here. A 1st round pick - particularly in this draft, which is said to be one of the best since the early 80s - is simply worth more than Gaither is. There are no less than three and up to six OTs in this draft I would take over Gaither.



That's just stupid.

Wow.

I totally respect you PSU...but that statement is Jeremiah esque...

You'd take a totally unproven guy who could be the next Robert Gallery over Gaither?

Wow.

I think that statement contradicts your "it's not that I don't like him" statement.

[Rxdoxx]

I'm listening to hear what Yanda gets.

I'd give up a 2nd to get him.

If I'm reading this right (our compensation lowered) gets us a second? It is only the low tenders that are reduced? or does he have to be 1st tendered?

I remember our inside running game really got scary when Yanda returned starting.

[srobert96]

I am not surprised by the 1st round only tender for Gaither. It is really a smart move for the Ravens. They know they can't keep both Gaither and Oher long term as they are both going to want LT money. They could get good RT much cheaper. If someone is willing to give them a first rounder for Gaither they will gladly take it. I would not be surprised to see a team sign him. Are the potential LTs projected in the first round more of a sure thing that what they know they can get from Gaither. If someone picked up Gaither they could use their two firsts on wr and pass rusher they need. They could then use 2nd, 3rd and 4th round picks on cb and Oline.

[srobert96]

You're arguing Fabian is NOT worth $2.5MM?

He's a starter on no less than half the NFL rosters. NFL starting cornerbacks do not command only $2.5MM per year in free agency. I thought this was a no-brainer, and was a little surprised he didn't get a 1st and 3rd tender.

- C -

Another guy that Ozzie would not mind seeing someone sign and take the draft pick.

[jonboy79]

I am not surprised by the 1st round only tender for Gaither. It is really a smart move for the Ravens. They know they can't keep both Gaither and Oher long term as they are both going to want LT money. They could get good RT much cheaper. If someone is willing to give them a first rounder for Gaither they will gladly take it. I would not be surprised to see a team sign him. Are the potential LTs projected in the first round more of a sure thing that what they know they can get from Gaither. If someone picked up Gaither they could use their two firsts on wr and pass rusher they need. They could then use 2nd, 3rd and 4th round picks on cb and Oline.

I will be ASTOUNDED if he is not offerred a contract. Whether the Ravens match that or not is the question. I think that would be a much smarter move then spending the same money on a WR.

[srobert96]

I will be ASTOUNDED if he is not offerred a contract. Whether the Ravens match that or not is the question. I think that would be a much smarter move then spending the same money on a WR. I don't think it is a money thing. If they get the pick they would be able to sign someone like Marshall and still have a 1st rounder to address OT, DE or CB. I believe they plan on moving Oher to LT anyway. It would just accelerate the process. They should be able to find a vet that can do a good job at RT. It may make the Oline slightly weaker than if they had a healthy Gaither and 2nd year Oher at the tackle spots but the team would be stronger as a whole.

[baltimore_hokie]

I don't think it is a money thing. If they get the pick they would be able to sign someone like Marshall and still have a 1st rounder to address OT, DE or CB. I believe they plan on moving Oher to LT anyway. It would just accelerate the process. They should be able to find a vet that can do a good job at RT. It may make the Oline slightly weaker than if they had a healthy Gaither and 2nd year Oher at the tackle spots but the team would be stronger as a whole.

But would the Ravens be better if we switched Gaither out for Marshall? Would you want to have Cousins matching up against Woodley again? It seems like that would just make another hole.

[Brtnder81]

I think we only gave Gaither the 1st rd tender so the Ravens and Gaither can see what the value for him is. I think the Ravens want someone to make an offer for Gaither and if its not to high the Ravens will match it and have Gaither under contract for the next few seasons and if its higher than the Ravens want to pay i dont think Ozzie has a problem letting him go and getting the draft pick. If no one makes Gaither an offer than both side know that Gaithers isnt viewed as an elite LT by other teams and the Ravens could still lock him up for a much cheaper contract than what he thinks he deserves at this point

[Jeremiah W]

The Panthers did not tender KOS Rhys Llyoyd.

The real kicker the Ravens never should have let get away.

He has and insane amount of touch backs. Maybe he is not a good FG kicker, but he has spent time as Stover and Kasay's caddy.

http://www.nfl.com/players/rhyslloyd/profile?id=LLO676464

[Sephy]

Don't know why you'd want someone who you admit isn't a good FG kicker...

[Filmstudy]

Kind of surprised by Fabian Washington getting the 1st round tender?

Coming off of an injury, I doubt anyone would give up even a 2nd rounder.

Brian, what is the difference in salary betwen the 2 tenders given the required minimum raise?

Also, if the Ravens put a 2nd round tender on Fabian, would they actually get a 2nd or 3rd for him?

Do the Colts have any restriction regarding who they can sign to an offer sheet among RFA's? They are the team I'd fear taking Gaither for a 1, which would be 31st overall and a big upgrade over Johnson. Green Bay and NO might also be risks, but the Colts might be happy simply to bid the Ravens up on Gaither if they don't get him.

[Filmstudy]

I think we only gave Gaither the 1st rd tender so the Ravens and Gaither can see what the value for him is. I think the Ravens want someone to make an offer for Gaither and if its not to high the Ravens will match it and have Gaither under contract for the next few seasons and if its higher than the Ravens want to pay i dont think Ozzie has a problem letting him go and getting the draft pick. If no one makes Gaither an offer than both side know that Gaithers isnt viewed as an elite LT by other teams and the Ravens could still lock him up for a much cheaper contract than what he thinks he deserves at this point

I agree with this logic and Pat Kirwan was mentioning it on NFL radio today. Since the team has the right to match an offer anyway, it gives a player and agent with unreasonable expectations a chance to find market value without the bad news coming from his team.

[Lee Van Cleef]

I, too, take the long view that ultimately this is a slight risk at leverage for a long term contract negotiation.

It's fascinating the way people on YBR are so quick to pray for someone to give up the first round pick and suggest that be spent on a replacement. It baffles me really. You've got one of the top 10 left tackles in the game, and theres no decent depth to the tackle spot. They want to trade away that NFL proven commodity and draft a guy who could just as easily bust, who isn't NFL ready, and doesn't know the system. For what? So they can put Oher at LT seemingly. You don't take something that is working and dismantle it for the sake of it.

One person even suggested Oher & Pashos as an alternative. Seriously?

Our starting O-line is a huge strength. We should be looking to augment it with better depth, not chop and change.

Stockers made a point which I thought was quite astute when we were talking the other day. He thought a lot of people still had in mind that Gaither was a supplemental fifth pick, and that he's underrated for it. I tend to agree, he's long outgrown and out-performed his draft status.

[elland]

I, too, take the long view that ultimately this is a slight risk at leverage for a long term contract negotiation.

It's fascinating the way people on YBR are so quick to pray for someone to give up the first round pick and suggest that be spent on a replacement. It baffles me really. You've got one of the top 10 left tackles in the game, and theres no decent depth to the tackle spot. They want to trade away that NFL proven commodity and draft a guy who could just as easily bust, who isn't NFL ready, and doesn't know the system. For what? So they can put Oher at LT seemingly. You don't take something that is working and dismantle it for the sake of it.

One person even suggested Oher & Pashos as an alternative. Seriously?

Our starting O-line is a huge strength. We should be looking to augment it with better depth, not chop and change.

Stockers made a point which I thought was quite astute when we were talking the other day. He thought a lot of people still had in mind that Gaither was a supplemental fifth pick, and that he's underrated for it. I tend to agree, he's long outgrown and out-performed his draft status.

Agreed. And as for our OL I believe with Gaither and Oher it would only be stronger the next couple of years, time to benefit from the rookie mistakes in year two, if profootball focus com and our own filmstudy is rigth Gaither is the better LT at this point. But oh no.. some people think.. better give me that reciever, CB or passrusher and maybe another RT in rd 2-4.. hmm like average Oliners Terry, Chester, Hale and Cousins.. Oher was not the first tackle taken last year, he was the most impressive, not given we are that lucky next time we draft a tackle in the first round... What about that fatso from bungles Andre Smith..

If Cowboys or Colts (31 rd pick) give Gaither an offer we cant match.. we are back to development year one and back to more use of six oliners, Heap and WRs in passprotection more than getting open, and back to the murder on Flacco. 7-8 wins. And worse what if Oher gets hurt? It does happend with second years players in this league... Then it is Terry and Cousins as our starting tackles and Moll and Reitz as our backups.. 3-6 wins.

[B-more Ravor]

Brian, what is the difference in salary betwen the 2 tenders given the required minimum raise?

Also, if the Ravens put a 2nd round tender on Fabian, would they actually get a 2nd or 3rd for him?

As a 5th year RFA, Washington would get the greater of $1.809M or 110% of his 2009 salary on the 2nd round tender. Since he made $1.715M last year, he'd get 110% of that = $1.887M.

The 1st round tender that he received is worth $2.621M.


Do the Colts have any restriction regarding who they can sign to an offer sheet among RFA's? They are the team I'd fear taking Gaither for a 1, which would be 31st overall and a big upgrade over Johnson. Green Bay and NO might also be risks, but the Colts might be happy simply to bid the Ravens up on Gaither if they don't get him.

No, the Final 8 rules do not apply to the signing of RFAs to offer sheets. None of those teams need to lose a UFA before signing an RFA to an offer sheet.

[Mista T]

Troy Smith at the 5th round tender (http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/blog/2010/03/troy_smith_gets_low_tender.html). I guess this will finally end the speculation from Smith's fan club members who believed that he has a trade value higher than his draft position.

[jonboy79]

Troy Smith at the 5th round tender (http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/blog/2010/03/troy_smith_gets_low_tender.html). I guess this will finally end the speculation from Smith's fan club members who believed that he has a trade value higher than his draft position.

Unfortunately I doubt he gets an offer sheet. I have no doubt the FO would let him walk for anything over about $2m/yer.

[purplepoe]

Unfortunately I doubt he gets an offer sheet. I have no doubt the FO would let him walk for anything over about $2m/yer.

I think they'd let him walk if another team offered any contract at all.

PP

[jonboy79]

I think they'd let him walk if another team offered any contract at all.

PP

I'm not sure about that, a backup QB locked up for3 or 4 years at a Million or less per year might not be a bad thing to have.

[purplepoe]

I'm not sure about that, a backup QB locked up for3 or 4 years at a Million or less per year might not be a bad thing to have.

Yup.

His name is John Beck.

Smith is not worth the headache of stupid trade demands in mid December and a general arrogance that isn't warranted in the least.

A 5th round tender says it all.

PP

[Gabrosin]

Assigning a first-round tender to Gaither is a tactical move. In doing so, it lets him dip his toes into free agency... but we hold all the cards.

If Gaither can find a team that will give him huge LT money, the Ravens won't match; we've got a host of big contracts coming up (within a couple years we'll have to extend Ngata, probably re-do Flacco and Rice, and at some point we'll likely plop down big money on a WR). I hate the thought of opening a hole at RT (with Oher moving to LT), but there's no way the team will pay elite LT money for Gaither. BUT, if he gets his big contract now, we'll be able to pick up a first (or perhaps negotiate an early second if one of the early-pick teams is after him). That's far better than losing him for nothing next season, assuming that we need to use the franchise tag to keep Ngata.

Now, if Gaither gets a REASONABLE offer sheet from another team, we can turn around and say "No thanks, we'll keep him at that price". Then we can just budget our acquisitions accordingly... while knowing that we've got our bookend tackles for the next four years, guaranteed (barring major injury).

I like Gaither, but I'd be willing to let him walk for a high pick if it means we have the resources to upgrade at WR and keep Ngata (who is vastly more important). I don't like the thought of Cousins taking over for him, but we've still got Adam Terry (pending his health) and we can probably get another solid young tackle with our first, or the pick we get for Gaither.

One more thing I forgot to mention: say Gaither tests the market and finds out his value isn't what he thinks it is. That might make him more amenable to taking a Ravens deal and staying around here... OR, it might make him bust his ass next season to improve his marketability. At which point it might make the most sense to extend Ngata, franchise Gaither, and try to deal him or sign him long-term at that point.

[jonboy79]

Yup.

His name is John Beck.

Smith is not worth the headache of stupid trade demands in mid December and a general arrogance that isn't warranted in the least.

A 5th round tender says it all.

PP

Trust me I'm with you, but it seems like someone at least liked him from the coaching staff last year. I'm plenty happy with Beck as a backup. In fact, if a game were to start knowing that Flacco would not play, He would for sure be my choice to start. I see some value of Smith as a gameday backup. This comes in some form from Kordell Stewart. I think, that coming straight off the bench, into a game that had no game plan for an athletic QB, that for a drive or two it can be very effective. Having a few days to plan ahead reduces that advantage GREATLY.

I'd be plenty happy to see him go. I'd rather not have the board banter about the Heisman Winner having IT to be a a starter in this league... :(

[jonboy79]

One more thing I forgot to mention: say Gaither tests the market and finds out his value isn't what he thinks it is. That might make him more amenable to taking a Ravens deal and staying around here... OR, it might make him bust his ass next season to improve his marketability. At which point it might make the most sense to extend Ngata, franchise Gaither, and try to deal him or sign him long-term at that point.

I am holding out hope, that because of the contract AND the first round pick that some other team will deliver the bad news that they are unwilling to top $10m a year or whatever, and show him that Raven's offers have been fair and "market" leaving him to sign here, or have the Ravens match an offer.

Flacco, Ngata, Gaither, Oher, Rice.... that's my pecking order keep them here at all costs.

[Rxdoxx]

BUT, if he gets his big contract now, we'll be able to pick up a first (or perhaps negotiate an early second if one of the early-pick teams is after him). That's far better than losing him for nothing next season, assuming that we need to use the franchise tag to keep Ngata.


Interesting, wouldn't mind their early second coupled with a 1st swap.

[effo5231]

Flacco, Ngata, Gaither, Oher, Rice.... that's my pecking order keep them here at all costs.

In what universe is Gaither more valuable than Oher and Rice?

Oher played tackle on both sides at a high level as a rookie and Rice only had the second best performance by a Raven's running back ever this season.

[Dont Know]

In what universe is Gaither more valuable than Oher and Rice?

In Oher's? Or how do you explain


Asked whether he would welcome a move to left tackle, Oher said: "No, because Jared Gaither is the left tackle and he's a great player. He's a better player than I am."




Oher played tackle on both sides at a high level as a rookie and Rice only had the second best performance by a Raven's running back ever this season.

Yet Gaither played LT at an even higher level.

[Lee Van Cleef]

Oher played tackle on both sides at a high level

Oher didn't play at a high level on the left side.

I really don't know where people got this impression from.

[purplepoe]

Clayton and F. Washington received 2nd round tenders, not 1st round.

PP

[B-more Ravor]

Clayton and F. Washington received 2nd round tenders, not 1st round.

The 2nd round tender certainly makes more sense for Fabian. Coming off of the injury, no one is going to go after him and if someone did, I'm sure they'd happily take a 2nd for a player they used a 4th on 2 years ago (not that that is going to happen).

I am kind of surprised that they didn't tender Terry at all. Terry certainly isn't that good, but he's at least serviceable as a back-up.

Heck, they could have given him the low tender and paid him the same as Tony Moll. Boy, what does that say about how they feel about you when they tender Tony Moll instead of you?

[RavenScallywag]

If someone signs Clayton to an offer sheet, I may have a party. I'll take a 2nd rounder for him...

Terry non-tendered eh? That one goes down as one of Ozzie's biggest blunders in the draft now. He was supposed to be our RT of the future when we traded up to get him, did he ever start one game? Granted, I'm not criticizing Ozzie for taking Terry, since he looked like a good prospect, but I think this might end his career here, unless no one else gives him a contract. I could see him returning here as a nice cheap backup.

[purplepoe]

The 2nd round tender certainly makes more sense for Fabian. Coming off of the injury, no one is going to go after him and if someone did, I'm sure they'd happily take a 2nd for a player they used a 4th on 2 years ago (not that that is going to happen).

I am kind of surprised that they didn't tender Terry at all. Terry certainly isn't that good, but he's at least serviceable as a back-up.

Heck, they could have given him the low tender and paid him the same as Tony Moll. Boy, what does that say about how they feel about you when they tender Tony Moll instead of you?

One word: SOFT

PP

[B-more Ravor]

One word: SOFT


Oh, I agree.

Still, I think he's better than Moll, but I guess, given Terry's injury history, they weren't willing to risk $1.1M that he could stay off of IR this year.

[RavenScallywag]

Don't know the RFA rules, but I'd guess that with Terry being a 3rd rounder who's been paid like one for 3-4 years, you can't give him a low tender, or rather your "low tender" for him is still a ton of money.

I'm going back on this already, I can't see anyone else showing a big interest in him. If we want him back, I think he's back here on a cheaper deal.

[purplepoe]

Oh, I agree.

Still, I think he's better than Moll, but I guess, given Terry's injury history, they weren't willing to risk $1.1M that he could stay off of IR this year.

I'm with ya.

It's obvious they think he's beyond soft really.

PP

[psuasskicker]

In Oher's? Or how do you explain


Asked whether he would welcome a move to left tackle, Oher said: "No, because Jared Gaither is the left tackle and he's a great player. He's a better player than I am."

Yet Gaither played LT at an even higher level.

Gaither played better than Oher did last year (when he was healthy). There's no debating that.

Oher's also a rookie. Gaither's a third year guy. Oher's rookie season was SIGNIFCANTLY better than Gaither's rookie season. Hell, Oher's rookie season was better than Gaither's second season. He has a far higher up-side than Gaither.

Oher projects to be a better OT than Gaither does four years from now.


I am kind of surprised that they didn't tender Terry at all. Terry certainly isn't that good, but he's at least serviceable as a back-up.

No he's not. O'neil Cousins was on the field instead of Terry! That should tell you all you need to know about him.

I'm not certain of this, but don't the Ravens get compensation for Terry (Comp pick) if he's signed by someone else? They probably thought - assuming that's true - that there's a better chance they get a pick for him than if they tender him.

If Terry can't break past Cousins on the depth chart, he's useless.

- C -

[purplepoe]

Gaither played better than Oher did last year (when he was healthy). There's no debating that.

Oher's also a rookie. Gaither's a third year guy. Oher's rookie season was SIGNIFCANTLY better than Gaither's rookie season. Hell, Oher's rookie season was better than Gaither's second season. He has a far higher up-side than Gaither.

Oher projects to be a better OT than Gaither does four years from now.



No he's not. O'neil Cousins was on the field instead of Terry! That should tell you all you need to know about him.

I'm not certain of this, but don't the Ravens get compensation for Terry (Comp pick) if he's signed by someone else? They probably thought - assuming that's true - that there's a better chance they get a pick for him than if they tender him.

If Terry can't break past Cousins on the depth chart, he's useless.

- C -

Kinda hard to play when you are on the IR.

:D

PP

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Oher's also a rookie. Gaither's a third year guy. Oher's rookie season was SIGNIFCANTLY better than Gaither's rookie season. Hell, Oher's rookie season was better than Gaither's second season. He has a far higher up-side than Gaither.

Oher projects to be a better OT than Gaither does four years from now.


You have got to be kidding me.

Oher's season (http://profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&lastname=Oher&surn=Oher&playerid=4946) was NOT better than Gaither second year (http://profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2008&lastname=Gaither&surn=Gaither&playerid=4279). And of course Oher had a better rookie year than Gaither...Gaither was backing up JO. What are you smoking PSU?

And since when did you become an NFL personel employee who KNOWS that Oher projects to be better than Gaither?

[B-more Ravor]

No he's not. O'neil Cousins was on the field instead of Terry! That should tell you all you need to know about him.

I'm not certain of this, but don't the Ravens get compensation for Terry (Comp pick) if he's signed by someone else? They probably thought - assuming that's true - that there's a better chance they get a pick for him than if they tender him.

If Terry can't break past Cousins on the depth chart, he's useless.


Terry was on IR all season, so it was down to Cousins or Moll to fill in.

There's no compensation for Terry since he was non-tendered. Just like UFA who are released, RFAs who are non-tendered are not UFAs in the true sense (ie a player whose contract has run out and who has 5 years of service time) - they are really just FAs (sometimes referred to as "street" FAs) - so they don't factor into the Comp pick equation.

[elland]

Gaither played better than Oher did last year (when he was healthy). There's no debating that.

Oher's also a rookie. Gaither's a third year guy. Oher's rookie season was SIGNIFCANTLY better than Gaither's rookie season. Hell, Oher's rookie season was better than Gaither's second season. He has a far higher up-side than Gaither.

Oher projects to be a better OT than Gaither does four years from now.


- C -

What a silly argument, Oher was drafted in the first round! Gaither was not even in the draft! He was drafted in the supl. draft, oh btw the starting LT was JO, still he played two almost three decent games with less errors than Oher in the Steelers game.

As for Oher being better than Gaither in his second year, I have not seen any of that.

[sailorsam]

imho we should keep Gaither at ALL costs. I can't believe they'd let him go unless they had a sure replacement (super high draft pick).

[Carey]

I do think Oher is a better player and projects as a better player going forward because of his work ethic, mean streak, feet, etc. I do however think we should keep Gaither but i like the thinking in giving him a 1st rd tender, i dont think we should break the bank for Gaither but he's a good player. As far as the draft i think Okung is a better player but i cant say definitively that any of the other 1st round tackles would be, If we are talking a top 4 pick and a chance to get Okung, or some type of solid contingency plan at RT then ok, but other then that i say keep Gaither. I really lean towards keeping him in general but we have to factor in Drew Rosenhaus being his agent.

[jonboy79]

Gaither played better than Oher did last year (when he was healthy). There's no debating that.

Oher's also a rookie. Gaither's a third year guy. Oher's rookie season was SIGNIFCANTLY better than Gaither's rookie season. Hell, Oher's rookie season was better than Gaither's second season. He has a far higher up-side than Gaither.

Oher projects to be a better OT than Gaither does four years from now.


- C -

Gaither was much better as a 2nd year player then Oher was as a rookie, at least on the left. I haven't seen him on the right.
Gaither is a few months older then Oher, with MUCH, MUCH better physical traits. He has a much higher ceiling, but he didn't have a movie and book about him.

There is NO WAY you are going to get me to believe that Oher is projected to be better then Gaither. He is worse currently with less room for improvement.

[jonboy79]

I do think Oher is a better player and projects as a better player going forward because of his work ethic, mean streak, feet, etc. I do however think we should keep Gaither but i like the thinking in giving him a 1st rd tender, i dont think we should break the bank for Gaither but he's a good player. As far as the draft i think Okung is a better player but i cant say definitively that any of the other 1st round tackles would be, If we are talking a top 4 pick and a chance to get Okung, or some type of solid contingency plan at RT then ok, but other then that i say keep Gaither. I really lean towards keeping him in general but we have to factor in Drew Rosenhaus being his agent.

Okung is only a few months younger then Gaither.

[psuasskicker]

Age is a ridiculous factor here. Tell me how much Suggs improved between age 23 and 24. NFL experience is a far bigger factor.

And don't give me crap about physical traits. Kyle Boller has MUCH MUCH better physical traits than Drew Brees.

And Gaither certainly was not "much better" in '08 than Oher was last year, but it's a lost cause to get you to try to see that, so whatever.

- C -

[jonboy79]

Age is a ridiculous factor here. Tell me how much Suggs improved between age 23 and 24. NFL experience is a far bigger factor.

And don't give me crap about physical traits. Kyle Boller has MUCH MUCH better physical traits than Drew Brees.

And Gaither certainly was not "much better" in '08 than Oher was last year, but it's a lost cause to get you to try to see that, so whatever.

- C -

Age is a HUGR factor. You don't dump near prowbowl level players that might still be 5 years from their prme.

IF you lined up all the left tackle games played by a Raven... Oher's would all have been the worst. Oher's best was around the level of Gaither's worst. IT was a noticeable, measurable difference.

Sure, and Boller's ceiling was MUCH higher then Brees. He didn't reach it, and Brees is poking his head through the sunroof...

Your hatred is showing here BADLY...

[gusbus52]

I am seeing F Washington got the 1st Round Tender in some places, is there a way to find the official Tender?

Were all the EFAs Tendered? The only one reported was from Paschal's agent

[B-more Ravor]

I am seeing F Washington got the 1st Round Tender in some places, is there a way to find the official Tender?

Were all the EFAs Tendered? The only one reported was from Paschal's agent


Initial reports - started by Washington, himself on Twitter - were that he got the 1st, but he didn't, he got the 2nd.

They tendered all of their EFAs but Greg Ryan and Lou Saucedo - who got hurt early in TC and spent last year on IR.

Here's the official FA press release from the league with the info:

http://www.nfl.com/static/content/catch_all/nfl_generic_content/FreeAgency.pdf

[Raveninwoodlawn]

49ers may be offering the 17th overall pick for Gaither. (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/357729-free-agency-rumor-jared-gaither-on-the-move-49ers-leading-candidate)

If we get something like that, we need to trade back and get as many of those picks back as we can.

Maybe we can trade Clayton for a 4th or 5th?

FTR...everybody knows that I am TOTALLY against letting Gaither go, but if the team wants to trade him, they need to have a smart plan in place to get a RT that can actually play and get Oher to play LT better than he did last year.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Also, I'd take the 17th over the 12th pick...and maybe try and get their 4th and give them one of our 5ths.

[Rxdoxx]

49ers may be offering the 17th overall pick for Gaither. (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/357729-free-agency-rumor-jared-gaither-on-the-move-49ers-leading-candidate)


Not a good deal for us.
Lose a seasoned LT, one of the premiums in the league for a chance to replace someone on our line? Gotta be more than just the 17th.
Minimum both their 1st for him and our 1st, but even then I'm still not thrilled.

[jonboy79]

Since you always ask for on e"well respected national media member" to back me up... here's one.
Pat Kirwan, anticipates even teams with solid first round picks could jump on Gaither, because as he states it "Here's a 23-year-old kid with 28 NFL starts at 6-foot-9, 340 pounds who is proven and better than everyone in the draft except for Russell Okung, or maybe he is even better than him?"
http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d816c26c6&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

Seattle would have to forfeit their #6 overall. SF's is around #10 off the top of my head.

[psuasskicker]

Age is a HUGR factor. You don't dump near prowbowl level players that might still be 5 years from their prme.

Age isn't nearly as big a factor as time played. It's just not. There's no magic that says a RB falls off a cliff at age 30. It's related to the amount of wear and tear on their bodies, which is why Thomas Jones is rushing for 1,400 yards to Jamal's 500. Same thing on the flip side. A guy's ability doesn't cap out at age 26 at which point they're playing in their prime but they improve the whole way up to age 26. It simply looks that way since most guys start playing at age 22. Stick a guy in at age 20, and he's likely to cap out at 24 and play in his prime for however long his body holds up. Claiming Gaither is even potentially 5 years from hitting his prime is a joke. Ogden played 12 years in this league. He hit his prime in his 4th or 5th year at age 25/26 and rolled for years. You're basically claiming Gaither will be playing 7 or 8 years in the NFL before he really hits his prime, when most Hall of Fame OTs play only 12 years.

It's SIGNIFICANTLY more likely that 5 years from now, Gaither is facing the down-side of his career. Like, not even close.


Your hatred is showing here BADLY...

You still don't get it. It's not even hatred. You're the one that's bashing Oher. I've never said Gaither sucks. I've never said he's not good. Hell, I've never even said Oher outplayed him this year. He's a good NFL OT. And there's certainly reason to keep him...why not keep him and not bother taking the risk that the guy you draft in his place turns out to be a bust? I could understand the Ravens asking a ransom to give him up.

But the point is, you're arguing that there's basically no way the Ravens could do better than him. That's simply not close to true. You're dramatically overstating his value, and if you and I took this argument to any other NFL team's message board, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that agreed with what you're claiming Gaither's value to be.


49ers may be offering the 17th overall pick for Gaither. (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/357729-free-agency-rumor-jared-gaither-on-the-move-49ers-leading-candidate)


I'd snap that up in a second. If we wind up with the #13 overall for him, I'd do a little happy-dance in my living room, even if it means giving up a 5th rounder or something like that in return. Hell even if we get #13 and their 3rd for our 2nd and Gaither I'd be thrilled.

- C -

[jonboy79]

Age isn't nearly as big a factor as time played. It's just not. There's no magic that says a RB falls off a cliff at age 30. It's related to the amount of wear and tear on their bodies, which is why Thomas Jones is rushing for 1,400 yards to Jamal's 500. Same thing on the flip side. A guy's ability doesn't cap out at age 26 at which point they're playing in their prime but they improve the whole way up to age 26. It simply looks that way since most guys start playing at age 22. Stick a guy in at age 20, and he's likely to cap out at 24 and play in his prime for however long his body holds up. Claiming Gaither is even potentially 5 years from hitting his prime is a joke. Ogden played 12 years in this league. He hit his prime in his 4th or 5th year at age 25/26 and rolled for years. You're basically claiming Gaither will be playing 7 or 8 years in the NFL before he really hits his prime, when most Hall of Fame OTs play only 12 years.

It's SIGNIFICANTLY more likely that 5 years from now, Gaither is facing the down-side of his career. Like, not even close.



You still don't get it. It's not even hatred. You're the one that's bashing Oher. I've never said Gaither sucks. I've never said he's not good. Hell, I've never even said Oher outplayed him this year. He's a good NFL OT. And there's certainly reason to keep him...why not keep him and not bother taking the risk that the guy you draft in his place turns out to be a bust? I could understand the Ravens asking a ransom to give him up.

But the point is, you're arguing that there's basically no way the Ravens could do better than him. That's simply not close to true. You're dramatically overstating his value, and if you and I took this argument to any other NFL team's message board, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that agreed with what you're claiming Gaither's value to be.



I'd snap that up in a second. If we wind up with the #13 overall for him, I'd do a little happy-dance in my living room, even if it means giving up a 5th rounder or something like that in return. Hell even if we get #13 and their 3rd for our 2nd and Gaither I'd be thrilled.

- C -

So you are asserting that a kid that barely played in HS and college will be ont he downside of his career at 28, at a position that has Kevin Mawae the top FA center at nearly 40....

Great argument.

I have no hatred for Oher, I think he could be one of the best RT's in football, like Jordan Gross was before moving over. I'd rather pay them both and skimp on the inside, or other areas then skimp at tackle. I'd love to keep them both and would gladly re-sign Oher after his rookie deal is up. If he filled in enough and improved at LT, I may even consider giving him LT money to stay on the right.

I see no way possible we end up the better team next year or beyond if we get ONLY the 13th overall pick for Gaither. We will be noticeably worse next year.

You are the one that is WAY, WAY off on this one.

[Jeremiah W]

So you are asserting that a kid that barely played in HS and college will be ont he downside of his career at 28, at a position that has Kevin Mawae the top FA center at nearly 40....

Great argument.

I have no hatred for Oher, I think he could be one of the best RT's in football, like Jordan Gross was before moving over. I'd rather pay them both and skimp on the inside, or other areas then skimp at tackle. I'd love to keep them both and would gladly re-sign Oher after his rookie deal is up. If he filled in enough and improved at LT, I may even consider giving him LT money to stay on the right.

I see no way possible we end up the better team next year or beyond if we get ONLY the 13th overall pick for Gaither. We will be noticeably worse next year.

You are the one that is WAY, WAY off on this one.

Who is it that keeps saying Oher is going to move to LT? Why has it not happened yet? Why create a hole at RT or LT for just a 1st round pick? Who knows if any top 10 tackle turns out to be as good as Oher is at RT? It is a great bonus that he can play LT, but we have seen what happens when Big Willy, Terry, Yanda or Cousins lines up at RT vs good pass rushers more than enough.

If somehow Oher turns into a better LT than Gaither, then they may make the swap like benching Chester when he struggled and Yanda was healthy.

Of all the silly debates during the silly season this one has to the worst. What is there to debate? Gaither is the LT Oher is the RT. Unless there is an offer sheet on the table that is top of the market or poison pilled, there is nothing more to talk about on this issue.

Peppers is off the market but there is still a need for a DL pass rusher. I would like to see the Ravens doctors check out Kampman.

The WR and OL issues are no longer top priority.

[psuasskicker]

So you are asserting that a kid that barely played in HS and college will be ont he downside of his career at 28, at a position that has Kevin Mawae the top FA center at nearly 40....

First, congrats on picking the exception to the rule in Mawae, who doesn't even play the same position.

Naturally the assertion that HS or college playing time has much if any bearing on NFL play is ridiculous. Perhaps if Gaither was lining up against the Gators and Trojans every week you could make such a claim. Instead he only played teams like those a couple times, so comparing the two is really not accurate in any way. It's at least somewhat accurate, however, in comparison with high school play.

Yeah, I think by the late 20s, Gaither will be past his best ball, or damn close to it. Feel free to go out there and count how many guys have played OT more than a dozen years. This isn't like QB or WR where there aren't a ton of high impacts. These guys are banging bodies every play with the biggest players in the league.

Are there exceptions? Yes. Ray Lewis has played LB at an extremely high level for longer than almost any other LB. And he's only played 14 years. Year 8 for most OTs is pretty typically past the crest of an NFL OT's career, not the start of it. The body can only take so much pounding, and age isn't as much of a factor as how much time they spent playing. Maybe Gaither gets an extra year cause he didn't start as a rookie. But if he keeps suffering little injuries, that's only going to shorten his career further. Ogden played only 12 years and he missed only 8 games over his first ten years. Gaither missed 5 last year.

Again, the example of Thomas Jones and Jamal Lewis is relevant. Do you think it's coincidence that Lewis - who had 2,400 carries at age 29 going into last year - had a terrible year, while Thomas Jones, who had 1,950 carries at age 30 going into last year - was still looking strong? And now the Jets cut him...expecting his production to drop significantly (and with their RB of the future already in tow)?

Shelf life is an age factor when you get to a certain age. Upper 30s, into the 40s, that's about a guy's limit. But till those points? Playing time is FAR bigger a factor than age.

- C -

[Lee Van Cleef]

Naturally the assertion that HS or college playing time has much if any bearing on NFL play is ridiculous. Perhaps if Gaither was lining up against the Gators and Trojans every week you could make such a claim. Instead he only played teams like those a couple times, so comparing the two is really not accurate in any way. It's at least somewhat accurate, however, in comparison with high school play.

Yeah, I think by the late 20s, Gaither will be past his best ball, or damn close to it. Feel free to go out there and count how many guys have played OT more than a dozen years. This isn't like QB or WR where there aren't a ton of high impacts. These guys are banging bodies every play with the biggest players in the league.

Just to pick up on this...

1) Playing in any level is useful experience and time being taught and applying technique. Playing O-line is not "natural" it involves a lot of body control that is not something you pick up in a moment, but over time spent practicing it. Footwork for instance, it's not natural to take short quick steps and keep yourself planted on the ground, and that is something you start getting coached in at the lowest levels of competition. It's incredibly important in the NFL where edge rushers like Freeney are quick and agile. If you're coming into the league not having had that background of drilling footwork extensively it's a steep slope from that point. One of the criticisms of Gaither when he entered the league was poor footwork.

The more time you spend doing something the better you understand it and the better you get at it. So his lack of history in that regard is quite important. He is an unpolished player with areas he can improve. He's good now, think how good he can be if he continues to improve.

2) College and high school are not the same as the NFL, this is true. But wear and tear is wear and tear. Playing significant snaps at any level involes significant amounts of contact and that adds up in your joints and your back. Again that is in Gaither's favour as he doesn't have the extensive football background.

Now... there are clearly motivational issues with Gaither which can inhibit his growth, but he's already a very good tackle. They don't grow on trees and you don't just hand them over when you get one. Last year when we got Oher the talk was all of how we had a great young O-line that could develop together and become truly formiddable. Now people are happy to auction off a part of that group, rearrange the line-up and draft a player that who may not even work out. Why? What sense is there in that?

[psuasskicker]

The more time you spend doing something the better you understand it and the better you get at it. So his lack of history in that regard is quite important. He is an unpolished player with areas he can improve. He's good now, think how good he can be if he continues to improve.

This assertion implies that pretty much every OT in HS is learning NFL caliber technique.

Gaither's been playing OT for four or five years now. If he's not already pretty much at the top of the learning curve for his fundamentals, he's never going to be. Yes, it helps to have the repetition, I'm not arguing that. But you're asserting that it takes five to seven years simply to learn how to do it well. I don't buy that.

- C -

[Lee Van Cleef]

This assertion implies that pretty much every OT in HS is learning NFL caliber technique.

Gaither's been playing OT for four or five years now. If he's not already pretty much at the top of the learning curve for his fundamentals, he's never going to be. Yes, it helps to have the repetition, I'm not arguing that. But you're asserting that it takes five to seven years simply to learn how to do it well. I don't buy that.

- C -

The fundamentals of football don't change; you still have to bend at the knees, take short quick steps, keep low to maintain leverage, keep hands inside.

I played O-line for 3 years in an Amateur league and I can tell you that after three years I still had problems implementing fundamental football technique, for instance footwork. Now I agree he should be along in that process, but it doesn't mean he reached his peak, he came into the league with clear technique flaws in his game, that was how many years into his playing career? Now he has shown improvement in his footwork, since he entered the league, what that says to me is he has still been absorbing technique that he was behind on.

Probably the most glaring aspect of his game is his mental problems. He commits penalties and makes mistakes in his assignments. Now that is a significant thing in itself. Again, if you've not been playing football for a long time then you don't have the football IQ that a Ray Lewis has, for instance, and with that comes the instinct. If you're playing the game since you were in pop warner or whatever you have a much earlier start on football tactics and reading what is in front of you. Again Gaither doesn't have that extensive background to draw upon, which can go some way to explaining his mental errors in terms of missed assignments. Though I would likely agree with the hypothesis that a porportion of his mental capacity for the game has been limited by work ethic.

I can totally understand your point but I think you are selling this guy's natural ability short. How much further he grows is contingent upon his ability to apply himself. That's something I can't speak to because I don't know the guy, but even developing as far as he has resulted in him becoming a very good player at his position.

[Jeremiah W]

I think J.O. set the bar too high here for some to have realistic expectations of what a good NFL LT looks like. Bryant McKinney made the probowl again. Jason Peters got a ton of cash. Andre Smith, Jason Smith, Brandon Albert, Eugene Monroe and so on are making the type of money people are afraid to pay Gaither.

Not every 1st round tackle is Jake Long, Ryan Clady or Joe Thomas. There are a lot of guys taken in the top 10 teams do not trust to protect the franchise QB.

[jonboy79]

I think J.O. set the bar too high here for some to have realistic expectations of what a good NFL LT looks like. Bryant McKinney made the probowl again. Jason Peters got a ton of cash. Andre Smith, Jason Smith, Brandon Albert, Eugene Monroe and so on are making the type of money people are afraid to pay Gaither.

Not every 1st round tackle is Jake Long, Ryan Clady or Joe Thomas. There are a lot of guys taken in the top 10 teams do not trust to protect the franchise QB.

As a matter of fact, those are the only three OT's I feel are at a better talent/age/health/potential point then Gaither. IMO, if all the tackles were thrown in a bag, Gaither has the potnetial to be the fourht "drafted".

[psuasskicker]

As a matter of fact, those are the only three OT's I feel are at a better talent/age/health/potential point then Gaither. IMO, if all the tackles were thrown in a bag, Gaither has the potnetial to be the fourht "drafted".

That's cute, but not even grounded in a little bit of reality.

- C -

[jonboy79]

That's cute, but not even grounded in a little bit of reality.

- C -

I'm sure you would put the "holy" Jason Peters, Jordan Gross and Marcus McNeil ahead, perhaps even Oher... But can even YOU think of any others? Okung.... Michael Roos...

[psuasskicker]

I'm sure you would put the "holy" Jason Peters, Jordan Gross and Marcus McNeil ahead, perhaps even Oher... But can even YOU think of any others? Okung.... Michael Roos...

Peters isn't holy, but is still better, regardless of giving up a lot of sacks in '08. Rushing numbers to his side are consistently at the top of the NFL. He's also blocking on his own pretty much every down, almost never getting chip or double team help.

Roos, Gross, McNeil and Brick most certainly. Almost certainly Clifton and McKinnie. Arguments could easily be made for Vollmer, Starks, Diehl and Backus have their names in the mix as well. And there are a few rookies - Oher, Jason and Andre Smith, Eugene Monroe, Loadholt - that, while not better now and some definitely will never be, certainly a few will factor into the discussion as well. And that doesn't count the prospects in this draft. Certainly they're not better now, but it's within the realm of possibility they come in and play better quickly, and in my own personal assessment there's three guys in this draft that I think project to be better long term than Gaither.

I'd guess Gaither goes no higher than 10th and no lower than 20th if NFL GMs did a "draft" right now. Probably somewhere on the high end of that, but if I were a betting man (and I am) I'd probably set the o/u at 14.5 (assuming you throw in the rookie class prospects...if you don't, I'd probably put it at 11.5 or 12.5).

- C -

[jonboy79]

Peters isn't holy, but is still better, regardless of giving up a lot of sacks in '08. Rushing numbers to his side are consistently at the top of the NFL. He's also blocking on his own pretty much every down, almost never getting chip or double team help.

Roos, Gross, McNeil and Brick most certainly. Almost certainly Clifton and McKinnie. Arguments could easily be made for Vollmer, Starks, Diehl and Backus have their names in the mix as well. And there are a few rookies - Oher, Jason and Andre Smith, Eugene Monroe, Loadholt - that, while not better now and some definitely will never be, certainly a few will factor into the discussion as well. And that doesn't count the prospects in this draft. Certainly they're not better now, but it's within the realm of possibility they come in and play better quickly, and in my own personal assessment there's three guys in this draft that I think project to be better long term than Gaither.

I'd guess Gaither goes no higher than 10th and no lower than 20th if NFL GMs did a "draft" right now. Probably somewhere on the high end of that, but if I were a betting man (and I am) I'd probably set the o/u at 14.5 (assuming you throw in the rookie class prospects...if you don't, I'd probably put it at 11.5 or 12.5).

- C -

Broke down Chad Clifton? Bryant McKinnie that got Benched? Loadholt who would never remotely be a LT? Fat ass Lazy Andre Smith? Seriously dude, one or two from your list that wasn't on my list even has the CEILING higher then Gaither's current level of play. Brick is the only reasonable name I missed Gaither is no worse then 7th or 8th if factoring in age.

Being Generous, I''ll give you
Thomas, Long, Clady, Brick, Roos, Gross and McNeil... that's suepr generous.

Your Bias is showing... The oscars are on tonight.. Your girl should win for your movie...

[psuasskicker]

Broke down Chad Clifton? Bryant McKinnie that got Benched? Loadholt who would never remotely be a LT? Fat ass Lazy Andre Smith? Seriously dude, one or two from your list that wasn't on my list even has the CEILING higher then Gaither's current level of play. Brick is the only reasonable name I missed Gaither is no worse then 7th or 8th if factoring in age.

Being Generous, I''ll give you
Thomas, Long, Clady, Brick, Roos, Gross and McNeil... that's suepr generous.

Your Bias is showing... The oscars are on tonight.. Your girl should win for your movie...

C'mon dude. It's one thing to argue a point, but you come off as either an idiot or an asshat when I repeatedly tell you I didn't like that movie, and have admitted that Oher last year wasn't as good as Gaither was last year, and yet you continue to harp on that.

Broke down Chad Clifton that played in more games last year than Gaither did? The one that was at the Pro Bowl a couple years ago, and who's absence last year showed a GLARING difference of how important he was in that lineup? The one that in the last seven years, played 16 games four times and 15 games twice more? That the one you're referring to as broke down?

The benched McKinnie that was sat for a couple plays in one game and went to the Pro Bowl? Yeah, your argument about Pro Bowls being nothing more than a popularity contest would have merit if 2/3 of the voting was not players and coaches. Those rosters are decided by their peers far more than their fans.

Once again, I didn't argue all those guys were better. But they certainly belong in the discussion.

And you can't possibly factor in age and argue out all the ones that are too young to be as good as Gaither, but project to be better, wouldn't get drafted higher; but that guys that are better than him now, but are old and are not likely to be as good if even playing five years from now, wouldn't either. You can either choose to say it's a one year only thing, and the old ones go in front of him; or it's for the long term and the young ones go in front.

Regardless though, even if you go WAY conservative and say that Gaither's better than everyone else except the guys you listed - which as much as you call "generous," reality is more than I would guess no less than 95% of non-Raven fans would say that list isn't long enough for OTs better than or projecting better than Gaither - you're still saying he's the 7th or 8th best. Is there anyone in the NFL that's 7th or 8th best at their position that you think would wind up being considered worthy of a top ten draft pick?

Once again, I'll go back to two years ago when the Rams demanded Suggs just to move up five spots from 8 to 3. No one is going to trade a top ten pick for pretty much anyone in this league, other than a guy that is the most dominant player at their position, which Gaither simply isn't close to being.

- C -

[jonboy79]

C'mon dude. It's one thing to argue a point, but you come off as either an idiot or an asshat when I repeatedly tell you I didn't like that movie, and have admitted that Oher last year wasn't as good as Gaither was last year, and yet you continue to harp on that.

Broke down Chad Clifton that played in more games last year than Gaither did? The one that was at the Pro Bowl a couple years ago, and who's absence last year showed a GLARING difference of how important he was in that lineup? The one that in the last seven years, played 16 games four times and 15 games twice more? That the one you're referring to as broke down?

The benched McKinnie that was sat for a couple plays in one game and went to the Pro Bowl? Yeah, your argument about Pro Bowls being nothing more than a popularity contest would have merit if 2/3 of the voting was not players and coaches. Those rosters are decided by their peers far more than their fans.

Once again, I didn't argue all those guys were better. But they certainly belong in the discussion.

And you can't possibly factor in age and argue out all the ones that are too young to be as good as Gaither, but project to be better, wouldn't get drafted higher; but that guys that are better than him now, but are old and are not likely to be as good if even playing five years from now, wouldn't either. You can either choose to say it's a one year only thing, and the old ones go in front of him; or it's for the long term and the young ones go in front.

Regardless though, even if you go WAY conservative and say that Gaither's better than everyone else except the guys you listed - which as much as you call "generous," reality is more than I would guess no less than 95% of non-Raven fans would say that list isn't long enough for OTs better than or projecting better than Gaither - you're still saying he's the 7th or 8th best. Is there anyone in the NFL that's 7th or 8th best at their position that you think would wind up being considered worthy of a top ten draft pick?

Once again, I'll go back to two years ago when the Rams demanded Suggs just to move up five spots from 8 to 3. No one is going to trade a top ten pick for pretty much anyone in this league, other than a guy that is the most dominant player at their position, which Gaither simply isn't close to being.

- C -

I can't think of a single reason to argue against Gaither as ardently as you are unless you were involved with the making of the book or movie. It's that bad how hard you have it for Oher. I don't think the average steeler fan is as hard on Gaither as you are....
The NFC probowl situation is in stark contrast to the AFC when it comes to LT, I would say Gross is the only top 8 takcle that resides in the NFC. Clady, Thomas and Long are in another class about the rest.

I have no concept of how you think he's a finished product, or even markedly closer to a finished product then the much more polished Oher, Brick, etc. No One has as much room to grow as Gaither, and yet he still outperforms most on the field.

Yes I factor in age, Gaither is extremely young, with very low mileage, OF COURSE he will still get better, while McKinney has steadily regressed.



Jay Cutler was worth multipler first round picks. He's at best as good at qb as Gaither is at LT, that's being SUPER gernerous. After QB, LT is the next most imporant positon, hands down.

[psuasskicker]

I can't think of a single reason to argue against Gaither as ardently as you are unless you were involved with the making of the book or movie. It's that bad how hard you have it for Oher. I don't think the average steeler fan is as hard on Gaither as you are....

You're saying this to a guy that's just got done calling Gaither almost a top ten left tackle currently in the league, and regardless of that in the top half. You're just being stupid now.


Jay Cutler was worth multipler first round picks. He's at best as good at qb as Gaither is at LT, that's being SUPER gernerous. After QB, LT is the next most imporant positon, hands down.

And yet here we sit, three days into NFL free agency, Gaither still on the roster, not even one tiny, credible rumor out there that anyone is thinking about even OFFERING a pick for him, nevermind signing him to an offer sheet for the low, low price of their first round pick.

But I guess you know better than all those silly NFL GMs, right?

- C -

[Lee Van Cleef]

Broke down Chad Clifton that played in more games last year than Gaither did? The one that was at the Pro Bowl a couple years ago, and who's absence last year showed a GLARING difference of how important he was in that lineup?

I ddn't really want to get involved in this debate again because I don't see it as being particularly fruitful, but I do want to address this.

Clifton is a good tackle and his return did result in a better performance but that just means he's better than his backups, it has no bearing on how he compares with players on other teams. You could very well argue how important Gaither is because when he was out they had to bring Cousins into the line-up and he completely sucked balls.

[jonboy79]

I ddn't really want to get involved in this debate again because I don't see it as being particularly fruitful, but I do want to address this.

Clifton is a good tackle and his return did result in a better performance but that just means he's better than his backups, it has no bearing on how he compares with players on other teams. You could very well argue how important Gaither is because when he was out they had to bring Cousins into the line-up and he completely sucked balls.

And rezlly that's the crux of the argument.. they keep looking at Gaither vs Oher being a small step down, but somehow can't see past that. If they saw how disastrous the effect of Gaither would have on filling our a starting 5, and depth behind, there is no way they'd want to lose him for a measly singular first round pick.

[jonboy79]

You're saying this to a guy that's just got done calling Gaither almost a top ten left tackle currently in the league, and regardless of that in the top half. You're just being stupid now.

- C -

Just a few posts back yoiu set the Over/Under of a "draft concept" that favors younger players would be 14.5.... You then included a few RT only's and much older broken down players as "in his conversation". The top half is a silly point as even you can't list remotely that many names without getting RIDICULOUS. Top 10 is being generous to the rest of the league, top 5 would suggest more progress then his peers. Top 5 is way less ridiculous then average.... that much is for sure.

[psuasskicker]

Whatever. We're going in circles now so there's no point in continuing. I'll close by reiterating what I said in my last post...


And yet here we sit, three days into NFL free agency, Gaither still on the roster, not even one tiny, credible rumor out there that anyone is thinking about even OFFERING a pick for him, nevermind signing him to an offer sheet for the low, low price of their first round pick.

But I guess you know better than all those silly NFL GMs, right?

[elland]

*FINAL*

Ravens:

Gaither: 1st round tender
Moll: low tender (6th round comp)
Burgess: low tender (6th round comp)
Cundiff: low tender (no comp)
Koch: 2nd round tender
Beck: low tender (3rd round comp)
Le'Ron McClain: 1st round tender
Dwan Landry: 2nd round tender
Edgar Jones: No tender
Fab Washington: 2nd round tender
Chester: low tender (3rd round comp)
D Williams: low tender (4th round comp)
T. Smith: low tender (5th round comp)
M. Clayton: 2nd round tender
M. Yanda: 2nd round tender
A. Barnes: low tender (4th round comp)
A. Terry: No tender

Assuming the cap is coming back, how will the Ravens do, we have also the ERFAs like Ellerbe and possible J. McClain and Parmele.

Who will get the longer contracts, how many can or will we keep next year (2011)?

Keep in mind that next year we will also have a lot of potential RFAs from 2008, and obviously at some time we have to say goodbye to Pryce, Gregg, Birk, Lewis, Reed and Mason + Ngata and later Rice, Grubbs and Flacco probably will see their payday.

Terry is cut and Jones resigned, still we have 15 RFAs and 8 ERFAs, a total of 23! Second to Ravens is the Saints 13 and third Cowboys 10, rest of the NFL with less protected agents. We have most RFAs and 8 out of a total 19 ERFAs, at this point!

Even though we have had some solid drafts recently and the ERFAs has contributed well, this seems like a very different strategy from the rest of the NFL.

Can anyone explain why this major difference?