Grading Ravens 2010 Draft

[RavenScallywag]

No one has put out draft grades yet, guess they'll wait till end.

Here's my, as objective as I can be, assessment...

By pick:

Kindle - B+ - Kindle is top 1st round talent, who dropped due to injury concerns and character issues from a few years ago. Ravens are confident knee is not a concern, so the benefit of the doubt is with them for now. Kindle will provide a boost to the pass rush. As Newsome noted, it make our CB need less because improved pass rush will help guard lesser corners.

Cody - B - On the one hand, Cody is a bit of a boring pick because he's only a situational DT against the run. On the other hand, that behemoth size and his athletic ability for that size make him a HUGE (no pun intended) addition to our run stuffing game. Again, 1st round talent taken a round later

Dickson - B - Very good pass catcher, nice athletic TE. Doesn't give much as a blocker, but should help open up the middle.

Pitta - C+ - I like Pitta, but right now, he's third on the depth chart. If all goes as expected, his target is 2nd when Heap retires/ is cut. Seems we could've gotten more of an impact player, but Ozzie noted, this was TOTALLY BPA...Pitta was too good to pass up. Could relate this to the way Orioles handle pitching...have so many prospects, you KNOW one of them will work out

David Reed - C - Reed is a nice value, has very good hands, adds value as returner. That said, this was a totally unexciting pick. I'd give it an average grade, his NFL comparison is Brandon Stokely. Reed's long term role then would be a slot receiver, not a starter.

Art Jones - B - Jones had a 2nd round grade before injury concerns. Pass rusher on the inside should provide the yin to Cody's yang.

Ramon Harewood - C - Developmental big guy for the OT spot. Hard to fail on a 6th round pick, but Harewood is nothing special either. Could be very big, or could be a total bust.

OVERALL GRADE: B-...We got some very good pieces, but we also leave a lot of holes which could put us in need spots next year.

[jonboy79]

I'm tougher on it...

Kindle- B - Can he learn to do something besides rush the passer before his knee gives out?
Cody- C- Decent Value, but how much does he bring to the table that we didn't already have in Mckinney?
Dixon - B- Not a bad option in the middle and up the field, but would have preferred a more willing blocker to man the #2 TE spot.
Pitta- D- good value, but too much duplicity... I don't mind drafting 2 TE's, but two mid round picks back to back that can't block a lick?
Reed - C- I don't know enough to knock him worse then this... I will grade him up a level if he is a passable NFL returner, otherwise I see little chance he makes the roster. Hopefully he sticks on the PS.
Jones- C- Hopefully we get an IR year out of him, or else he's likely stolen from our PS.
Harewood- c- Raw, Developmental, Big, probably best inside... meh... should have jsut taken a kicker or something... these guys are everywhere undrafted.

Overall- C- Missed on the second biggest need(CB) and addressed the other two major needs diferently then I would prefer(Passrusher, TE). After Pitta noone is likely to make the roster at all.

[baltimore_hokie]

Pretty pointless to even bother putting grades on anything at this point. Ozzie didn't see any value in CB's, so he didn't take any. He must not be too worried with our CB situation. Foxworth and Webb are a very solid starting combo.

[jonboy79]

Pretty pointless to even bother putting grades on anything at this point. Ozzie didn't see any value in CB's, so he didn't take any. He must not be too worried with our CB situation. Foxworth and Webb are a very solid starting combo.

What are the chances Webb is healthy for week 1? 1 in 10? Washington? 1 in 2 maybe?

[baltimore_hokie]

Harbaugh:


“I don’t think it’s too optimistic because of the way those guys are training,” Coach Harbaugh said. “Right now, we expect those guys to be practicing the first day of training camp because nowadays those ACLs get back fast, but I don’t think you can count on it. I’m sure we’ll have a contingency plan.”

I'm not so sure we need anything long-term at CB. If anything, I could see us signing a veteran until Webb and Washington get off the PUP list (if necessary).


If the Ravens go the free-agent route there are still solid options remaining, including Lito Sheppard (not anymore), Nick Harper, Philip Buchanan, Dre Bly, Nathan Vasher, Fred Smoot and Ken Lucas. Frank Walker is also a possibility, as Harbaugh has shown interest in bringing him back.

[Losac]

I love how people grade these drafts before any of the players have played a single down in the NFL.

[jonboy79]

A bunch of guys who have lost a step...
There really isn't a fall back optioint hat can cover a real WR on the outside of the field. If Webb and Washington start the year on PuP or worse, we are in trouble.

[myfavoriteboxer]

I love how people grade these drafts before any of the players have played a single down in the NFL.

Yeah, why don't we grade the 2005 NFL Draft instead?

So... worst Ravens draft ever?
1-22- Mark Clayton (Notable receivers chosen after Clayton: Roddy White 1-27, Vincent Jackson 2-61)
2-53- Dan Cody (Justin Tuck 3-74, Trent Cole 5-146)
2-64- Adam Terry
4-124- Jason Brown
5-158- Justin Green
6-213- Derek Anderson
7-234- Mike Smith

I guess not quite because of the success of Terry and Brown, even though neither is still with the team. Who can say what would've become of Derek Anderson had he not ended up in Cleveland, (ok probably not much), but his limited success is probably not too bad for a 6th rounder.

[baltimore_hokie]

It's all about value...


“Every year there’s a run. You can be either in the mix or outside the mix,” Newsome said. “To say we were interested in some of the [corerbacks] that went, yes. But when you’re outside of the mix, we don’t feel like we have to reach.”

Three cornerbacks were taken before the Ravens’ were on the clock with the 16th pick in the fourth round. Those players were UCLA’s Alterraun Verner (No. 104 to Tennessee), Kentucky’s Trevard Lindley (No. 105 to Philadelphia) and Oregon’s Walter Thurmond (No. 111 to Seattle).

Instead of reaching for a player lower on their board, the Ravens opted to take Brigham Young tight end Dennis Pitta.

“We were looking at those guys in the fourth round, but we couldn’t justify one of those [corners] over Pitta,” Head Coach John Harbaugh said. “We’ll find a way to add a corner. We’ve got guys that can play, two guys are getting healthier and I’m real excited about what we’re going to do in the secondary. We’ll be fine.”

[Rxdoxx]

Yep, kinda hard to grade anything especially with in-house scouting that differs from most others.

But what I see is the start of a defensive shift.
For the early part of last year I could have sworn I was seeing a 4-3, wasn't until after a major meeting that I really began seeing flashes of the organized chaos that a 3-4 can provide.

So Cody, the run stuffing beast in the middle
Jones the DT that can penetrate the backfield
Kindle versitile enough for either 3-4 or 4-3

Not sure of a full change this year but signs are we are heading in that direction. Add Cory Redding to the mix


Harewood is the newest project, I'd say they are moving on from someone from the list of Mattison, Hale (remember Bujnoch added as was Daniel Sanders and Greg Ryan all centers), Stephon Rodgers, Joe Reitz, Lou Saucedo

and on the D, I've got Divins, Talavou and even maybe McKinney as in the fight of their lives to stay on the roster, Cody bumps one, Jones unless he is IR gets another.

If Davon Drew doesn't have a fire lit under him now :141847_smmackbottom

It wasn't how I wanted to see the draft go but have to sit back and trust Oz
We still have LB Phillips to see if/where he fits in and VanDeSteeg from last year's draft, wonder if Edgar can manage to hang on again.

Hard draft to grade, but I can see all making the team except Harewood to the PS.

[Dont Know]

Yeah, why don't we grade the 2005 NFL Draft instead?

So... worst Ravens draft ever?


No, that would be 2004 (and it isn't even close).

As for this year, incomplete, but let's revisit the topic in 4 - 5 years if anyone remembers.

[chicagoravensfan]

even though it is probably silly to grade the draft at this point, in all fairness Anquan Boldin should be included.

[CRZA938]

David Reed - C - Reed is a nice value, has very good hands, adds value as returner. That said, this was a totally unexciting pick. I'd give it an average grade, his NFL comparison is Brandon Stokely. Reed's long term role then would be a slot receiver, not a starter.



For what it's worth, Kiper and McShay both loved the Reed pick. He played his best games against, Alabama (2 years ago), Cal, and TCU. WR's drafted in the fifth round aren't expected to necessarily be starters (especially at first). So how is this a C? He was drafted at the end of the 5th round and it addresses a need...

[NC Raven]

Head Coach John Harbaugh said. “We’ll find a way to add a corner. We’ve got guys that can play, two guys are getting healthier and I’m real excited about what we’re going to do in the secondary. We’ll be fine.”

Sounds like the staff isn't shitting its pants about CB depth as much as this board seems to be.

On the whole, the draft itself didn't have a lot of a "wow" factor to it. I mean, really, is anybody like "Holy shit dude, the Rams got Sam Bradford -- they're gonna be frickin awesome now!!"??

Wasn't a lot of super-impact players, just a lot of B / B- talent. We got our share, I think we did fine.

[NC Raven]

No, that would be 2004 (and it isn't even close).

As for this year, incomplete, but let's revisit the topic in 4 - 5 years if anyone remembers.

Amen... it took Dwan Edwards years to be useful, and he was the crown jewel of that horrifying group. Trading up for Devard Darling in the 3rd? I thought I was gonna hurl when they did that.

[RavenScallywag]

I'm not coming down on our draft, but Kiper and McShay ALWAYS love what Ozzie does. I do think sometimes he gets the benefit of the doubt on a pick because of the success he's had.

Taking TEs back to back was a bold move. It's not just about ignoring need for best players, it's also about making sure you get a nice balance through the draft, and Ozzie with those two picks said, "To hell with being even, we could make a SICK TE group here".

With the Reed pick, for a 5th rounder, I'd say it's average. He wasn't a guy we reached for, but he also isn't a guy I'd say can translate into a potential NFL starter. Carlton Mitchell and Riley Cooper might have been reaches, but they displayed a little more as a WR to me. Reed was a solid pick, but not one I'd say is an outstanding pick.

I'm also trying to be as harsh as possible. I think we got a lot of good depth, but there's a lot of ?s left too. Plus, I'm sort of getting tired of taking less talented WRs who also play ST well over guys who could really make a difference in the passing game. You end up with great ST but a piss poor WR corps.

[CRZA938]

With the Reed pick, for a 5th rounder, I'd say it's average. He wasn't a guy we reached for, but he also isn't a guy I'd say can translate into a potential NFL starter. Carlton Mitchell and Riley Cooper might have been reaches, but they displayed a little more as a WR to me. Reed was a solid pick, but not one I'd say is an outstanding pick.



That's fair. Let's hope he proves you wrong!

[RavenScallywag]

I hope so too...It wasn't a bad pick...while he may not seem like a starter guy, I am liking the fact that he runs good routes and has "sure hands"

I think between Boldin and the draft, we're trying to leave Joe with no excuses...

"I only have one good WR to throw to" - Enter Anquan Boldin
"No one is good enough to throw to across the middle" - Enter Ed Dickson and Dennis Pitta
"We need someone who makes the crucial catch (ahem Mark Clayton) - Enter David Reed

[myfavoriteboxer]

No, that would be 2004 (and it isn't even close).

As for this year, incomplete, but let's revisit the topic in 4 - 5 years if anyone remembers.

Oh yeah that one's painful. Only Dwan Edwards makes any impact at all, and we traded our first rounder from 04 for NE's first rounder of 03. (QBs in 03 first round were Palmer, Leftwich, Boller, and Grossman. QBs in 04 first round? Eli Manning, Rivers, Roethlisberger, J.P. Losman.) So, not a good deal there.

[ravenwoman]

In fairness to the Ravens, once they traded back, we knew that all of the true elite players were off the board. After all, there is a huge value drop from 25 to 43.

Sergio Kindle will either be a beast or a bust. I have character concerns with his DUI and texting while driving incident where he ran into a building and left the scene of an accident. Not smart. It's not what intelligent people do. Secondly, I am suspect about knees. Once you have knee problems, you always have knee pain and problems.

Cody can be good if he can drop 50 pounds. I don't like fat football players period. I hope he can learn to collapse the pocket and become the complete player the Ravens need. Even Tony Siragoosa (sp) could tackle a QB. Remember Rich Gannon?

I think Dennis Pitta was a good pick. Not as good as a Gronkowski, but okay. Why didn't we draft Aaron Hernandez? He was rated the third best TE in the draft. Who is this Ed Dickson? Is he a big time player? Overall the Patriots drafted 2 of the best TEs.

Now, this David Reed. Why didn't we pick Riley Cooper from Florida--Tim Tebow's go to man. He reminds me so much of an Austin Collie. This is the type of receiver that Joe Flacco really needs. It puzzles me why we took David Reed when we could have had Cooper. Well, the Eagles picked up Cooper 2 picks after us and we know how well Andy Reid is in the draft.

The rest of the players are projects at best, so I won't comment on it.

Time will tell if this is a good or great draft. Great drafts are based on good scouting and I hope the Ravens draft board is accurate. I just think because of the position they were in with so few picks (5) that they moved back and had to take more risk than they normally do in a draft. By the way, New England has already accmulated 2 first round and 2 second round picks for next year. Bill Belichick certainly knows his way around the draft board, doesn't he?

[RavenScallywag]

Riley Cooper and David Reed were both project WRs...neither is a sure fire thing at the next level.

But consider this...Reed had just two years TOTAL with the Utes, one as a starter. Riley Cooper played 4 years with Florida, two as a starter. Only this past year did he blow up. The three years before were just nothing.

So while I think Riley could translate to Collie, I think I'd put Reed in his level. Reed could translate to a Brandon Stokely like player. I know everyone will start saying bad things, but remember Stokely had some pretty big years with the Colts as the #3 there. He had a little success still in Denver this year as well.

[darb72]

Cody can be good if he can drop 50 pounds. I don't like fat football players period. I hope he can learn to collapse the pocket and become the complete player the Ravens need. Even Tony Siragoosa (sp) could tackle a QB. Remember Rich Gannon?
So you want the guy we drafted to be a two gap run stuffer to lose 50 pounds and get to my weight? At 300 pounds, I'm to small to be a NFL two gap DT. When I was recruited by UNA I was to small to be the two gap DT they wanted me to be. THE ENTIRE REASON CODY WAS SO HIGHLY RANKED IS BECAUSE HE CAN STUFF THE RUN!!! Say it with me. THE ENTIRE REASON CODY WAS SO HIGHLY RANKED IS BECAUSE HE CAN STUFF THE RUN!!! Once more, just to make sure you fully understand. THE ENTIRE REASON CODY WAS SO HIGHLY RANKED IS BECAUSE HE CAN STUFF THE RUN!!! Linemen in the 3-4 aren't supposed to get sacks. Dang sure not the NTs. Cody will come off the field on obvious passing situations to be replaced by someone who can rush the passer.

The fun thing nobody realizes about Cody is how tired offensive linemen are going to get trying to move the darned behemoth. We don't get swapped out like those pansies on defense do, so opposing offensive lines will have to move 350 pounds of man flesh and then try to block the extremely athletic Pryce.

And one more thing. You do realize that Goose had a grand total of 22 sacks in 177 games played in his career, right? That equals out to not a hell of a lot per game.

[effo5231]

And one more thing. You do realize that Goose had a grand total of 22 sacks in 177 games played in his career, right? That equals out to not a hell of a lot per game.

.12 sacks per game actually... which means he got a sack nearly twice a year sir! Assuming he played 30-35 snaps per game which is what Filmstudy predicted for Cody that would mean one sack every 250 snaps.

To match the production of Bruce Smith he'd have to play roughly one hundred and 10 seasons in the NFL.

Who knows... if he keeps his knees healthy and eats right it could happen.:laugh:

[darb72]

As for draft grades, I'm kind of torn.

I love the first two picks. One provides pass rush like Suggs, the other is just an unmoveable mountain.

I understand the need for two TEs. We don't have any and since we actually have an offensive line that can block, plus McClain, we didn't need a blocking TE. Should Heap get injured, we have options.

David Reed I'm not a fan of but but maybe they drafted him to return kicks and possibly play a little WR.

Art Jones. Fine, it's not a terrible pick. We need some DT depth anyway.

The OT? I just think that since he probably won't be around after camp anyway, why not grab Warren? At least Warren would provide a warm body in training camp, even if he gets cut.

The draft was a good one, I think. I just wanted to see a few areas of need addressed, mainly CB and WR.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

I think it was a good draft.

I've come around some on the Reed pick which is the big one that stands out to me as there being someone else at the same position who could have had significantly more potential.

However, I think the team is playing with fire in the secondary. I know BPA and all...but the same thing happened last year when everybody and their mother knew we had a huge glaring hole at WR, and the team ignored it during the draft and during UFA. They refused to acknowledge it by putting a ton of faith in Clayton/DWill, and when December/January came around...it bit us in the ass.

I hope that isn't the case with CB.

If Fabien and Webb were healthy, I wouldn't be too concerned...with bot having an injury that most say takes 2 years to fully recover from, mentally as well as physically, I think another CB who at least could be a strong NB would be the feather in the cap here.

[Stealthbirds80]

I think it was a good draft.

I've come around some on the Reed pick which is the big one that stands out to me as there being someone else at the same position who could have had significantly more potential.

However, I think the team is playing with fire in the secondary. I know BPA and all...but the same thing happened last year when everybody and their mother knew we had a huge glaring hole at WR, and the team ignored it during the draft and during UFA. They refused to acknowledge it by putting a ton of faith in Clayton/DWill, and when December/January came around...it bit us in the ass.

I hope that isn't the case with CB.

If Fabien and Webb were healthy, I wouldn't be too concerned...with bot having an injury that most say takes 2 years to fully recover from, mentally as well as physically, I think another CB who at least could be a strong NB would be the feather in the cap here.

There will be good veteran signings in the secondary before camp. Happens every year at some position on this team. The draft and free agents are aplenty in this new age of no cap and early college departures due to the possible rookie camp. Me not worried :happy:

[pyite32]

I hope so too...It wasn't a bad pick...while he may not seem like a starter guy, I am liking the fact that he runs good routes and has "sure hands"

I think between Boldin and the draft, we're trying to leave Joe with no excuses...

"I only have one good WR to throw to" - Enter Anquan Boldin
"No one is good enough to throw to across the middle" - Enter Ed Dickson and Dennis Pitta
"We need someone who makes the crucial catch (ahem Mark Clayton) - Enter David Reed

In Fairness I have never heard Joe make an excuse like that. I understand your point but Flacco doesn't seem like an excuse maker, and probably puts all past failures on his own shoulders.

[baltimore_hokie]

Scouts Inc has found a way to immediately evaluate drafts based on value, trades, and needs. The Ravens are 3rd in the NFL, behind only Seattle and San Francisco.

Again, this is mostly based on perceived value, but the Ravens did an extraordinary job in that regard.

[RavenScallywag]

In Fairness I have never heard Joe make an excuse like that. I understand your point but Flacco doesn't seem like an excuse maker, and probably puts all past failures on his own shoulders.

Didn't mean that to sound like Joe blames ANYONE else...we all know he doesn't do that.

I just mean it looks like they've targeted areas where the passing game had issues before: going across the middle, having another decent WR to take heat off Mason, deep threat (Stallworth), and getting a slot receiver with sure hands to push Clayton, who seems to have more explosiveness but not so sure hands.

In any case, that's one area I really do like the two TE picks. We have two guys IN ADDITION to Heap we can now throw to across the middle.

[baltimore_hokie]

Didn't mean that to sound like Joe blames ANYONE else...we all know he doesn't do that.

I just mean it looks like they've targeted areas where the passing game had issues before: going across the middle, having another decent WR to take heat off Mason, deep threat (Stallworth), and getting a slot receiver with sure hands to push Clayton, who seems to have more explosiveness but not so sure hands.

In any case, that's one area I really do like the two TE picks. We have two guys IN ADDITION to Heap we can now throw to across the middle.

The more I think about the two TE picks, the more I like it. Dickson will immediately be a weapon. He may not be the best all around TE, but he will always be a matchup nightmare. I see Pitta as an immediate red zone target, and the potential to be a solid all around TE.

Dickson, when paired with Heap in 2010, makes for a pretty scary combination. All of a sudden, TE is looking like a strength on this team. No need to worry about it for several years.

Next year, we shouldn't have that many holes. Add the C of the future, maybe a CB, and maybe a WR.

[RavenScallywag]

One thing I've been wondering...it's a stretch, but....

Could Pitta or Dickson go to WR?

Granted, the size is an issue...the heaviest NFL WR that I know of is Vincent Jackson, tipping the scales at 230. Pitta is 245, Dickson is 249. But both of them ran quicker 40s than Boldin did in the Combine, and with the suspect blocking but VERY good pass catching and route running, it seems like one of these guys could transition over to WR if they lost some weight.

In any case, we'll probably see one or both of them splitting out wide from time to time.

[ravenwoman]

One last thing about the Cody pick. The Ravens problem last year was not the running game. It was the passing game. We need additional DBs and we could have gotten them in the second round. I know they will address the problem through free agency, but it would have been nice to get one in the draft. A run stuffer like Cody is more of a luxury, not a necessity, especially since he is really only used in a 2 down set. A team like the Colts passes more than it runs. We need quick fast athletic type players. A man can be big, fast and strong. I just don't think being big and strong is good enough any more. The pick was a risk and that is why he was picked in the bottom of the second round.

[AirFlacco]

B - subject to change depending on Kindle's knee and if Kindle starts.


I wanted Cody with the 25th pick and we got him in 2d round. Two first rounders in the 2d round can't be beat by anyone and wasn't.

I was worried about his knee but the Ravens aren't and after seeing the hi light films on the other thread I'm starting to get excited. He is so explosive
and fast he will put JJ on the bench at some point and already said he wants
D-ROY. JJ could be on the bench by game 3,depending on Kindle's knee.


BTW, Dukes said it was the best draft of all and said Cody will allow Ngata to move outside freeing
Suggs to fly by the end. Cody also frees up Ray to shoot the gap up the middle. Throw in Kindle
on the weak side with Suggs flying thru on the strong side and the QBs will be shell shocked.

Kiper gave it an A+

Sporting News gave it an A- and said Kindle is the best LB in the draft if his knee holds up.

Jaworski said Ravens are building a juggernaut.



McShay loved it.

[RavenScallywag]

Let's not be so quick to bench JJ...Kindle should be a nice presence, but JJ is a pretty dynamic player and a good vet. Kindle will be following the Suggs formula for development...come in as a situational pass rusher and learn from the vet in front of you (At that time, it was Cornell Brown I think)

Remember that JJ had a nearly Pro Bowl season last year...

[baltimore_hokie]

Let's not be so quick to bench JJ...Kindle should be a nice presence, but JJ is a pretty dynamic player and a good vet. Kindle will be following the Suggs formula for development...come in as a situational pass rusher and learn from the vet in front of you (At that time, it was Cornell Brown I think)

Remember that JJ had a nearly Pro Bowl season last year...

Kick JJ inside in obvious passing situations and let Kindle come off the edge. I could definitely see him having a Suggs-like rookie season.

[Stealthbirds80]

One last thing about the Cody pick. The Ravens problem last year was not the running game. It was the passing game. We need additional DBs and we could have gotten them in the second round. I know they will address the problem through free agency, but it would have been nice to get one in the draft. A run stuffer like Cody is more of a luxury, not a necessity, especially since he is really only used in a 2 down set. A team like the Colts passes more than it runs. We need quick fast athletic type players. A man can be big, fast and strong. I just don't think being big and strong is good enough any more. The pick was a risk and that is why he was picked in the bottom of the second round.


Let me put it to you this way. Even on passing downs Cody with be the anti O linemen. Check this, an inside/cross blitz from either Ellerbe, Ray, JJ, or Kindle. The QB hikes the ball. Now Cody is in the A gap pushing the center and guard to the right. Insert said blitzer into that hold and ta daaaa! Cody's double team has led to a mismatch on the O line resulting in less time for the QB to throw. In the panick (insert QB) either takes a sack or throws ill advised balls to a WR that wasn't ready to come out of his break. INT/incomplete/sack I imagine as Cody's presence may effect the passing game especially with Ngata demanding the double team as well.

[CRZA938]

The more I think about the two TE picks, the more I like it. Dickson will immediately be a weapon. He may not be the best all around TE, but he will always be a matchup nightmare. I see Pitta as an immediate red zone target, and the potential to be a solid all around TE.

Dickson, when paired with Heap in 2010, makes for a pretty scary combination. All of a sudden, TE is looking like a strength on this team. No need to worry about it for several years.

Next year, we shouldn't have that many holes. Add the C of the future, maybe a CB, and maybe a WR.

AGREED!!! Dickson was one of the top 5 players the Ravens targeted on Day 2. Also, if you agree with the BPA approach, then it makes complete sense to take Pitta in round 4. Why draft a CB at that point (who may not even make your team) becuase you need a body there?

[festivus]

I love what the draft did for our pass rush. I see both Kindle & Cody as boom/bust guys. If they were locks to live up to their potential they would not have been available where we drafted, but if they didn't have that potential they would have kept falling. If they both flame out early we were losers, if one ends up going to the Pro Bowl then trading back from 25 we're winners; if they both have good productive careers then Ozzie was a genius. Lucky for us we get to judge a couple years from now and only the Oz has to be a prognosticator.

I really like both TEs & I think it's great that we have three good TEs on the roster. Heap has come along as a blocker in the last couple of years and hopefully at least one of the new guys will be ready to do some blocking by the time we face the Jets.

I don't know anything about any of the later round guys but I'll assume the FO has some idea what it's doing & give them an A+. What the hell, why not.

[Lee Van Cleef]

Kick JJ inside in obvious passing situations and let Kindle come off the edge. I could definitely see him having a Suggs-like rookie season.

I heard this idea somewhere else and really like it. JJ can take on blockers and whilst not the fastest is a relentless pursuit player on the blitz. I think he'd bring more to blitz packages inside than Ellerbe, and withRay next to him and Suggs and Kindle outside it could present some nasty blitz opportunities.

I'm really warming to the prospect of Kindle if he doesn't have any issues with the knee.

[jonboy79]

I heard this idea somewhere else and really like it. JJ can take on blockers and whilst not the fastest is a relentless pursuit player on the blitz. I think he'd bring more to blitz packages inside than Ellerbe, and withRay next to him and Suggs and Kindle outside it could present some nasty blitz opportunities.

I'm really warming to the prospect of Kindle if he doesn't have any issues with the knee.

Kindleis a fair pick. I hope he does provide a Suggs rookie like year, we need it. He should provide what JJ shouldn't if healthy.
Cody provides almost zero passrush and can't even be on the field much. He gets tired very quickly.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

If Cody can give us what Casey Hampton gave Pitt or Goose gave us (same issues with wieght, stamina and coming out on passing downs), I'll be more than happy.

[psuasskicker]

Cody provides almost zero passrush

You realize this is not the same as providing help for the pass rush, right?

- C -

[jonboy79]

You realize this is not the same as providing help for the pass rush, right?

- C -

Yes I do, but he doesn't help the passrush either when he's on the sidelines panting like my dog in the summer....

He "might" play 20 snaps a game as a rookie and they will ALL be obvious runnign situations.
It's not what he does, it's not what he will do. He isn't the pocket collapser or "blocker eater upper" that many think he will be on passing downs. He holds the POA as good as anyone coming out of college, but offers little else.

I think the comment that he may tire OLinemen out may be the most correct way to explain his effect on the pass game. As it works, most Olinemen play all game. Attempting to move the immovable on rush downs may tire them out enough to help other players on later downs. It's reaching a bit but true.

[trailhiker85]

Of all the Ravens draft picks, Cody will be the most interesting to watch from my perspective. I admit I have my doubts about this choice. Everyone knows the NFL is a passing league today. Yes, once upon a time first & second downs were primarily running downs, but those days are long gone. With many teams today, there's hardly any such thing as a "running down", unless it's 3rd/4th and inches. I hate to say it, but Peyton Manning could probably have thrown against us every single down last year and still have beaten us (yes, I realize that not all QB's are Peyton Mannings, just wanted to make a point).

Therefore I've been wondering how much impact Cody can have even as a two-down player ...UNLESS ...Ozzie, Harbs, and Co. see potential there that is being overlooked in some quarters. This is what I'm hoping for; that perhaps Cody can give us something even against the pass on 1st and 2nd downs. I don't think Oz would have picked the guy if they thought he was completely useless in containing an opponents' passing game.

[BmoreBrawla]

I give them a B- for draft-day performance, but if you count Anquan Boldin then its a B+.

[jonboy79]

I give them a B- for draft-day performance, but if you count Anquan Boldin then its a B+.

I agree that Boldin if included in my draft grade would bring a C- to a C+ and then if you add the rest of the offseason including retaining Gaither then it's a B+. The draft was IMO by far the worst part of the offseason.

[AirFlacco]

If Cody can give us what Casey Hampton gave Pitt or Goose gave us (same issues with wieght, stamina and coming out on passing downs), I'll be more than happy.

That's the idea. We got Goose back. We had Sam Adams with Ngata and now we have Cody as Goose's replacement.

SB here we come.

Matt will start with a 4-3 like last year and then switch to 3-4 and there are
so many packages to mix with both.

He will use both Kindle and JJ moving JJ as inside LB. You will want Kindle
on running plays because he so so explosive and fast and damages the QB.
Kindle is twice as fast as JJ.

Kindle also ran track and played RB in hi school and I think radio said he
runs 40 in 4.65.

Cody took up 3 blockers in college and will take up at least 2 in pros.
Ngata has been taking up 2-3 blockers and so has Pryce.

Pryce will be freed up and so will Suggs and Ray up the middle and Kindle
blitzing from the edge.

I envision a 3-4 line like this.



X X X X

Suggs Ray JJ Kindle


X X X

Ngta Cody Pryce


Ngata and Cody will take up at least 5 blockers with Suggs breezing around the end untouched.
Add Kindle blasting in from the weak side.


That's why Ravens didn't go after a CB although they did like Cox but he
was taken.



MOUNT NACODY - NO RUNNING ALLOWED.

[jonboy79]

Pryce will be rotating in for Redding, not starting.

[AirFlacco]

OK,

but I thought Redding was the backup.

Radio said today he is a pass rusher while Bannan and Dwan EDwards
were not.

Also, this guy Jones late in the draft was once on the big board before
his knee dropped him.

Ravens docs cleared him and he is supposed to be OK. He will be
the sleeper of the draft if his knee holds up.

Like Redding, he is a pass rusher.

Ravens knew all this when they let Bannan and Edward sign elsewhere.



MOUNT NACODY - NO RUNNING ALLOWED.

[Carey]

Another thing to think about as far as Cody. They'll have a conditioning plan in place for him and its not like he's gonna have alot of plays to learn or something because Saban runs a pro style 3-4 D, even if he didnt its not like a nose tackle has a huge playbook. I'd imagine most of his time will be spent conditioning and learning some fundamental things from Clarence Brooks. He's not a finished product, they show him things and keep him in playing shape and maximize his ability. Also people should be more excited about Arthur Jones, ive read a couple scouting reports that said if it was for the injuries he could have been the best 3-4 end in this draft. And because he didnt have anybody else significant on the line at Syracuse he routinely got triple teamed, 2 blockers with a back chipping. I see Ngata and Redding at the ends with Gregg at the nose. Pryce and Kruger as the primary backups at end and Cody backing up Gregg at the nose.

[BmoreBrawla]

I agree that Boldin if included in my draft grade would bring a C- to a C+ and then if you add the rest of the offseason including retaining Gaither then it's a B+. The draft was IMO by far the worst part of the offseason.

I agree. I wanted to give the draft a "C" too but I did like the Cody and Arthur Jones picks. I still would have preferred that they not give away their #1 pick.

[AirFlacco]

Well, then instead of Kindle you would have Dan Williams, a good pass rusher. Oz said he probably would have taken him if he had stayed in 1st.

Williams was at the bottom of the first round while SI and others had Kindle rated as the 20th pick overall in the first. He fell due to durability concerns but Ravens docs have cleared him.

We wouldn't have Heap's replacement and depth with Dickson and Pitta. Heap will probably groom Dickson to take his place which could be within 2 years.

Pitta will be the perfect complement as CAM loves 2 TE sets. Vinny said on Scott's show he might be Joe's favorite receiver. he can find the dead spots int he zone and has good hands. See their hi lights on other threads in this forum.

So for Williams, a good pass rusher in the first we get:

Kindle - perhaps the biggest bargain of the draft

DICKSON

PITTA

AND WE KEEP:



CODY

REED

JONES - this could be huge down the road. He was on the big value board but his knee sunk him. If it is OK
he could be one of the steals of the draft. We got him in the Boldin trade.




Not trading its:

WILLIAMS

CODY

REED

JONES

HAREWOOD



MOUNT NACODY - NO RUNNING ALLOWED.

[AirFlacco]

I agree. I wanted to give the draft a "C" too but I did like the Cody and Arthur Jones picks. I still would have preferred that they not give away their #1 pick.

See how these dudes grade it.


http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/bal-ravensroundup0424,0,1487060,full.story





MOUNT NACODY - NO RUNNING ALLOWED.

[psuasskicker]

I agree that Boldin if included in my draft grade would bring a C- to a C+ and then if you add the rest of the offseason including retaining Gaither then it's a B+. The draft was IMO by far the worst part of the offseason.

LOL @ considering Boldin barely taking a draft literally every respected analyst is lauding, up just a tiny notch but having a MASSIVE increase simply for retaining Gaither.

Gaither top 5

Draft C-

Yeah, I'm glad you're not our GM...

- C -

[jonboy79]

LOL @ considering Boldin barely taking a draft literally every respected analyst is lauding, up just a tiny notch but having a MASSIVE increase simply for retaining Gaither.

Gaither top 5

Draft C-

Yeah, I'm glad you're not our GM...

- C -

Wow... si that the only thing that happenned all offseason?
I could have sworn we signed Cory Redding and allowed Bannan and Edwards to leave for monster deals. We picked up Stallworth for NOTHING and kept all the right UDFA's in house another year.

But yeah, it was only Gaither hater...
I'm sure it takes it down a level for you.

[Rxdoxx]

Not trading its:

WILLIAMS

CODY

REED

JONES

HAREWOOD



Agree with what you say except for this.
That isn't our draft if we don't trade.
I heard a yelp when we drafted 2 TE back-to-back, if we had done that with 2 DT we would have needed earplugs.

No way we could have come out of this draft without any CB or TE, we probably can scratch Reed and/or Jones (a third DT) off that list and add Moeaki or Peek or Byham.

I can't see any way we can just plug Williams in instead of the trade and keep the rest of our draft the same, it has to be different, even if we stretch and leave Cody in, a TE has to be put there somewhere.

[psuasskicker]

There's pretty much no chance we'd have drafted Cody if we took Williams at 25. Hell, Kindle might have fallen to us anyway...

- C -

[jonboy79]

There's pretty much no chance we'd have drafted Cody if we took Williams at 25. Hell, Kindle might have fallen to us anyway...

- C -

Correct... If Williams was the choice at 25, the rest of the draft would be an entirely different thing. The second choice would be much more likely to be Kindle then Cody. Art Jones would even be a bit less likely, IMO(less picks).

[psuasskicker]

Correct... If Williams was the choice at 25, the rest of the draft would be an entirely different thing. The second choice would be much more likely to be Kindle then Cody. Art Jones would even be a bit less likely, IMO(less picks).

Yeah, although I think we prolly take Dickson in the 2nd if we got Williams in the 1st. Assuming that, I think I'd way rather have Kindle + Cody + Pitta than have Williams...

- C -

[Dave Lap]

For what it's worth, Kiper and McShay both loved the Reed pick. He played his best games against, Alabama (2 years ago), Cal, and TCU. WR's drafted in the fifth round aren't expected to necessarily be starters (especially at first). So how is this a C? He was drafted at the end of the 5th round and it addresses a need...


Our scout Joe Hortiz is really high on him. I also heard our WR coach talk glowingly about the guy. One of the analysts at ESPN or NFL network said they thought he was a legit third rounder.

Of course we're in the honeymoon phase now, full of hope for the future, so who knows? I know one thing, I want to take a look at Reed and the other rooks in training camp.

[Dave Lap]

Yeah, although I think we prolly take Dickson in the 2nd if we got Williams in the 1st. Assuming that, I think I'd way rather have Kindle + Cody + Pitta than have Williams...

- C -

Oh yeah... this was a deep draft according to everyone. If there was ever a year to get more picks and move back this was it.

[psuasskicker]

Our scout Joe Hortiz is really high on him. I also heard our WR coach talk glowingly about the guy. One of the analysts at ESPN or NFL network said they thought he was a legit third rounder.

Of course we're in the honeymoon phase now, full of hope for the future, so who knows? I know one thing, I want to take a look at Reed and the other rooks in training camp.

My guess is he's gonna beat DWill out of a job. Honestly it wouldn't shock me if we wind up keeping him over Clayton, with our 5th receiver as a guy who can contribute on ST (not sure if Reed can or not). It seems pretty clear to me that the organization has absolutely no plans for Clayton or DWill right now. Clayton at best will be the 4th receiver, DWill almost certainly out of a job barring injury, and Clayton will be able to go be a playmaker for someone else in '11.

- C -

[psuasskicker]

Oh yeah... this was a deep draft according to everyone. If there was ever a year to get more picks and move back this was it.

When I watched the draft I wondered what we got, and I remember thinking "I hope we got more picks this year rather than just a 1st rounder next year."

- C -

[jonboy79]

Yeah, although I think we prolly take Dickson in the 2nd if we got Williams in the 1st. Assuming that, I think I'd way rather have Kindle + Cody + Pitta than have Williams...

- C -

If we could retwist history in a reasonable manner...

I would trade Cody(natural second) + Dickson (Early Third) to get whatever corner the Ravens could get and rated highest from Wilson, McCourty, Robinson and Cook. This is a little more reasonable if you consider we possibly could have traded the earlier second and still gotten Kindle later.

But if the draft haul were say...
Chris Cook
Sergio Kindle
Dennis Pitta
Arthur Jones
David Reed
Ramon Harewood(Colin Peek)

I would be MUCH happier.

I hear they tried to trade up for Cook, should have tried harder. Detroit moved up in range.

[B-more Ravor]

I hear they tried to trade up for Cook, should have tried harder. Detroit moved up in range.

How do you know how hard they tried? It takes two to tango, and by all reports they did try, but no one was willing to work a deal.

The Vikings traded down all of 4 spots with Detroit. They wanted a CB, and were apparently targeting Patrick Robinson. They traded down thinking they could still get him at 34. They lost that gamble when the Saints took Robinson at 34, so they took Cook instead.

Based on all of that, I highly doubt the Vikes would have been willing to trade down to 43 (or 57), especially with the Ravens, who may have picked a CB at that point.

[jonboy79]

How do you know how hard they tried? It takes two to tango, and by all reports they did try, but no one was willing to work a deal.

The Vikings traded down all of 4 spots with Detroit. They wanted a CB, and were apparently targeting Patrick Robinson. They traded down thinking they could still get him at 34. They lost that gamble when the Saints took Robinson at 34, so they took Cook instead.

Based on all of that, I highly doubt the Vikes would have been willing to trade down to 43 (or 57), especially with the Ravens, who may have picked a CB at that point.

Good point.

The dropoff from 25 and 43 was too great, and it hurt. Apparently the teams in between agreed.

[psuasskicker]

I hear they tried to trade up for Cook, should have tried harder. Detroit moved up in range.

Detroit moved up only 4 spots. It would have taken 9 for us to get him. That comes at a far bigger price than what Detroit paid. You also have no idea how highly they had Cook rated compared to Kindle and Cody.

- C -

[jonboy79]

Detroit moved up only 4 spots. It would have taken 9 for us to get him. That comes at a far bigger price than what Detroit paid. You also have no idea how highly they had Cook rated compared to Kindle and Cody.

- C -

I know htey had all the CB's rated too low in comparison to the rest of the league. I also knoow they had Kindle and Cody rated higher then most... that's hwo the draft turned out.
Doesn't mean I have to agree with it, or you....

[B-more Ravor]

Good point.

The dropoff from 25 and 43 was too great, and it hurt. Apparently the teams in between agreed.

Too great if you are solely focused on the CB position. Otherwise, if you wanted players and depth for the pass rush, on the DL and at TE, it was a fair drop.

[jonboy79]

Too great if you are solely focused on the CB position. Otherwise, if you wanted players and depth for the pass rush, on the DL and at TE, it was a fair drop.

It was worth what we acquired in picks, but with the results of the draft the fact that it IMO severly hamstrings the team with a weak defensive backfield worries me. That is all.
I was happy when the trade was made in the moment, so I can't complain too bad. But then again, I was also immediately ALL ABOUT trading back up for one of the "essential" Corners that even I assumed would be gone by 43.
Assuming that it was literally impossible to move up high enough for even Cook, then I have to agree that Kindle was a good pick.
From there, I would have gone back and reached at the corner position, trading up if need be, as I acquired such good depth withthe first trade. Whomever the guy was that the FO targetd, be it Jerome Murphy, Javier Arenas(again, didn't make it to Cody's pick, probably surprisingly), etc.

Time to get on the horn. Maybe we can trade a pick next year for some ohter teams excess depth. Basically every other team added a corner wheether they needed it or not, so....


Any possible Supplemental Draft corners yet?

[CRZA938]

Our scout Joe Hortiz is really high on him. I also heard our WR coach talk glowingly about the guy. One of the analysts at ESPN or NFL network said they thought he was a legit third rounder.

Of course we're in the honeymoon phase now, full of hope for the future, so who knows? I know one thing, I want to take a look at Reed and the other rooks in training camp.

Yeah, seeing how the rookies stack up against real competition is always one of my favorite things to watch during camp. The Ravens are going to be a very deep team this year, but I think that all of these rookies are going to make it (this is going to be a great draft class when we look back in a few years IMO). Although I along with many others would have liked to have seen a quality corner added, I think we did enough with the vet signings to buy us some time and if we get lucky maybe a little better than that.

Training camp in 2 weeks!

[RavenScallywag]

I think Kindle, Cody, Dickson, and Pitta are locks...

Jones and Reed are highly probable, but could be bounced due to numbers games

Harewood is a great candidate to be IR'ed with a mysterious injury or cut and try to pass him to P Sq. I think he offers just as much as Moll, but Moll's experience could lead him to make the team over Harewood.

[jonboy79]

I think Kindle, Cody, Dickson, and Pitta are locks...

Jones and Reed are highly probable, but could be bounced due to numbers games

Harewood is a great candidate to be IR'ed with a mysterious injury or cut and try to pass him to P Sq. I think he offers just as much as Moll, but Moll's experience could lead him to make the team over Harewood.


I'm not sure that iether Moll nor Harewood are even in competition for a roster spot... without injuries. Harewood is a prime candidate for the PS... A Raw guy that likely would have gone undrafted had we not drafted him, he will slide through.

[Jeremiah W]

I'm not sure that iether Moll nor Harewood are even in competition for a roster spot... without injuries. Harewood is a prime candidate for the PS... A Raw guy that likely would have gone undrafted had we not drafted him, he will slide through.

Why not? Moll was on the roster all year last year. He may be back on the bubble but I do not know why you seem to think there is not going to be real comp in camp? The depth chart in written in pencil right now.

[CRZA938]

I think Kindle, Cody, Dickson, and Pitta are locks...

Jones and Reed are highly probable, but could be bounced due to numbers games

Harewood is a great candidate to be IR'ed with a mysterious injury or cut and try to pass him to P Sq. I think he offers just as much as Moll, but Moll's experience could lead him to make the team over Harewood.

Yeah, I have to agree. I still think they all will make it, but Harewood is definitely the least likely of the bunch. My reasoning for him making it is that for one he will most likely be moved to guard as opposed to tackle and that although he is indeed a project, would have too much potential to sit on the practice squad without being scooped up by another team. Now, if they could IR him, that would probably be ideal. We shall see...I'll admit that I'm wrong if they all don't make it. Lord knows it wouldn't be the first time...

I'll throw out one more prediction, of the 6, Cody will be the first to make a pro bowl...BAM!!!

[CRZA938]

Cody- C- Decent Value, but how much does he bring to the table that we didn't already have in Mckinney?


I think the answer to this question is a lot. Given enough time in the Ravens strength and conditioning program, along with the DL coaches, I think Cody is going to excel. Regardless of whether you agree with me or not, here is an interesting article on Cody from baltimoreravens.com from a few months ago.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/News/Articles/2010/06/Mount_Codys_Uphill_Battle.aspx

[RavenScallywag]

The real interesting thing with Cody, from OTAs so far anyway, has been that he's actually been pretty decent as a pass rusher. Initially, the word on Cody was he was a two down player only, he'd come off for any obvious passing downs. But he's actually seemed to keep his weight down and is getting to the passer on some drills

Granted, OTAs is different than camp is different than gametime. But if he can rush the passer even a little, given his excellence in run stuffing, I think that's a great move. McKinney is decent, but it's not like he's earning rave reviews on his play at DT. He's probably above average depth. If you cultivate Cody right, he could be an above average starter.

[baltimore_hokie]

The real interesting thing with Cody, from OTAs so far anyway, has been that he's actually been pretty decent as a pass rusher. Initially, the word on Cody was he was a two down player only, he'd come off for any obvious passing downs. But he's actually seemed to keep his weight down and is getting to the passer on some drills

Granted, OTAs is different than camp is different than gametime. But if he can rush the passer even a little, given his excellence in run stuffing, I think that's a great move. McKinney is decent, but it's not like he's earning rave reviews on his play at DT. He's probably above average depth. If you cultivate Cody right, he could be an above average starter.

I won't comment on his pass rushing skills until the pads go on. You really can't put much stock in what the guy has done in shorts, other than some pretty impressive comments on his athleticism at his size.

I think people are putting too much in what McKinney is. He really has done nothing on the field for the Ravens, but we like his size and age (although he's not all that young anymore). He may start on same bad teams, but I would take Cody over him any day. He may be above average depth, but that may even be an overstatement. Cody has the potential to be a star.

The bottom line about this draft is that no one would have faulted the Ravens for taking Kindle or Cody at 25. Instead, we got BOTH...and we got them in the second round...and we accumulated more picks in a very strong draft...and we had already given up two picks to get a #1 receiver. I love what the FO has done this off-season. Sure, it would be nice to get Cook or some other CB, but I trust that Ozzie and Co saw other holes coming at DT and LB that could have been worse than our secondary situation.

[Lee Van Cleef]

I think people are putting too much in what McKinney is.

This has been the case for a while now, people seem to assume he'll just step into the role with little evidence to back up the assertion. It may be the case but I don't see where the hope for that comes from.

[CRZA938]

The bottom line about this draft is that no one would have faulted the Ravens for taking Kindle or Cody at 25. Instead, we got BOTH...and we got them in the second round...and we accumulated more picks in a very strong draft...and we had already given up two picks to get a #1 receiver.

I think you hit the nail on the head here...

[jonboy79]

I won't comment on his pass rushing skills until the pads go on. You really can't put much stock in what the guy has done in shorts, other than some pretty impressive comments on his athleticism at his size.

I think people are putting too much in what McKinney is. He really has done nothing on the field for the Ravens, but we like his size and age (although he's not all that young anymore). He may start on same bad teams, but I would take Cody over him any day. He may be above average depth, but that may even be an overstatement. Cody has the potential to be a star.

The bottom line about this draft is that no one would have faulted the Ravens for taking Kindle or Cody at 25. Instead, we got BOTH...and we got them in the second round...and we accumulated more picks in a very strong draft...and we had already given up two picks to get a #1 receiver. I love what the FO has done this off-season. Sure, it would be nice to get Cook or some other CB, but I trust that Ozzie and Co saw other holes coming at DT and LB that could have been worse than our secondary situation.

It's not so much McKinney, that it's McKinney, Divens and Talavou. All have looked more then passable when used inthe regular season, on top of convincing preseason play.

I am encouraged by what we hear from Cody, I hope it continues. I was worried about weight and stamina on top of the pass rushing skills. I hope to be pleasantly surprised.

Cody at 25 is more then a little stretch, really Kindle there is a pretty fair stretch. Both were really on the outside looking in at the first round towards the end of the draft season. Both are certainly above average values, but they weren't the steals some consider them to be. I hope they both work out very well long term, but both have major questions, bugger questions then practically any first rounder. Kindle's knee is a major long-term risk.

I can't say enough times how I hope I'm wrong. I hope even moreso I was wrong with the need at corner.

[Carey]

I won't comment on his pass rushing skills until the pads go on. You really can't put much stock in what the guy has done in shorts, other than some pretty impressive comments on his athleticism at his size.

I think people are putting too much in what McKinney is. He really has done nothing on the field for the Ravens, but we like his size and age (although he's not all that young anymore). He may start on same bad teams, but I would take Cody over him any day. He may be above average depth, but that may even be an overstatement. Cody has the potential to be a star.

The bottom line about this draft is that no one would have faulted the Ravens for taking Kindle or Cody at 25. Instead, we got BOTH...and we got them in the second round...and we accumulated more picks in a very strong draft...and we had already given up two picks to get a #1 receiver. I love what the FO has done this off-season. Sure, it would be nice to get Cook or some other CB, but I trust that Ozzie and Co saw other holes coming at DT and LB that could have been worse than our secondary situation.

Completely agree, i wouldnt have wanted it any other way. I wouldnt have liked to take a corner just for the sake of taking one in the later rounds either. Cornerback just shoots to the top of the 2011 needs list, which may i say is not a very long list(CB, #1 WR of the future, C of the future, S?, 3-4 DE?). I think an underrated signing was Walt Harris, i think he'll be solid, reportedly he looked the best in the tryout and he was a very good starter before the injury. Lets not forget what Kindle, Redding, a better conditioned Suggs(we hope), and Cody will do for the pass defense.

[psuasskicker]

Cody at 25 is more then a little stretch, really Kindle there is a pretty fair stretch. Both were really on the outside looking in at the first round towards the end of the draft season. Both are certainly above average values, but they weren't the steals some consider them to be. I hope they both work out very well long term, but both have major questions, bugger questions then practically any first rounder. Kindle's knee is a major long-term risk.

Two notes on this...

1) One thing I never understood is how Kindle got to be seen as a pass rusher. Dude had one great game in the Bowl game with a couple sacks. But he's never been a pass-rushing specialist. I love the guy's skills, but am concerned he's gonna have like 4 or 5 sacks, play pretty well but people will call him a failure cause a lot of talking media heads have been claiming he's got the potential to be a dominating pass rusher.

2) The knee thing could be a big concern, but I don't think that should sway a team from taking a great player just because of that, especially into the second round. Adrian Peterson's a great example of this. He had major durability concerns. No one was thinking he wouldn't be an awesome rusher. They simply thought five years from now he's going to start completely breaking down. Would that stop any team in the NFL from drafting him again? It shouldn't...

Look at Kindle in the same light. In the middle of the first round, would you take five years of terrific productivity and then nothing at that spot? I would every single time. Maybe not from a top 10 pick, but from a pick in the early 40s? Oh yeah.

- C -

[Greg]

I grade the Ravens draft a 6.

[jonboy79]

Two notes on this...

1) One thing I never understood is how Kindle got to be seen as a pass rusher. Dude had one great game in the Bowl game with a couple sacks. But he's never been a pass-rushing specialist. I love the guy's skills, but am concerned he's gonna have like 4 or 5 sacks, play pretty well but people will call him a failure cause a lot of talking media heads have been claiming he's got the potential to be a dominating pass rusher.

2) The knee thing could be a big concern, but I don't think that should sway a team from taking a great player just because of that, especially into the second round. Adrian Peterson's a great example of this. He had major durability concerns. No one was thinking he wouldn't be an awesome rusher. They simply thought five years from now he's going to start completely breaking down. Would that stop any team in the NFL from drafting him again? It shouldn't...

Look at Kindle in the same light. In the middle of the first round, would you take five years of terrific productivity and then nothing at that spot? I would every single time. Maybe not from a top 10 pick, but from a pick in the early 40s? Oh yeah.

- C -

Did Peterson have 4 surgeries on one knee?

[psuasskicker]

Did Peterson have 4 surgeries on one knee?

I don't remember their history exactly, but I remember the discussion on Peterson and why he fell to #7 very well. There were HUGE durability concerns about him because of the excessive use in college and the fact that he rarely got through any year fully healthy. The criticism on him was never that people didn't think he'd be a great player, but simply that they didn't think he'd last.

But it's a big difference taking someone with durability concerns high in the first round vs. middle of the second. At that area, you can afford to take a risk like that much more easily.

- C -

[CRZA938]

Did Peterson have 4 surgeries on one knee?

Does anyone know the extent of the 4 procedures done to Kindle's knee? I am not a doctor, so I have to trust in the Ravens medical staff.

[HoustonRaven]

Does anyone know the extent of the 4 procedures done to Kindle's knee? I am not a doctor, so I have to trust in the Ravens medical staff.

It's been a rumor for a while, but I cannot find anything that there were 4 injuries. I know he needs / has had micro-fracture surgery which is a rather dicey surgery.

[CRZA938]

It's been a rumor for a while, but I cannot find anything that there were 4 injuries. I know he needs / has had micro-fracture surgery which is a rather dicey surgery.

Yeah, I researched his history and couldn't find anything factual (other than multiple procedures have been performed but I can not tell what type of procedure). I don't believe he has had micro-fracture surgery, only that a few team doctors believed he was going to need it in the future. Again, I have to rely on what the Ravens front office is telling us which is the Raven medical staff is a very conservative one and they didn't share the major concerns that some other team doctors did.

[JimZipCode]

Jamal Lewis was coming off a knee surgery when we drafted him. That turned out decently.

[HoustonRaven]

Yeah, I researched his history and couldn't find anything factual (other than multiple procedures have been performed but I can not tell what type of procedure). I don't believe he has had micro-fracture surgery, only that a few team doctors believed he was going to need it in the future. Again, I have to rely on what the Ravens front office is telling us which is the Raven medical staff is a very conservative one and they didn't share the major concerns that some other team doctors did.

Same here. All I could find were sources saying he had "knee injuries" but nothing that explained the depth of those injuries.

If he a strain, then a year later had a partial tear, I'd have no concerns. Given that he saw the field all 4 seasons, this is the more likely scenario than him having a blow-out or a full tear.

The level of rehab at the pro level is far superior than NCAA so I am thinking they feel his injuries can be addressed.

[RavenScallywag]

Cody at 25 is more then a little stretch, really Kindle there is a pretty fair stretch.

Kindle was projected in most mocks to be gone before 25. Not a stretch to see him there, unless you factor in some hype into this knee injury. Personally, I don't think the Ravens draft Kindle if they think he is going to degenerate like that. The medical staff aobviously saw something where they said either "we can fix this and he'll be able to play" or "there's nothing wrong". I doubt the medical staff would've seen the injury and said "hmmm, this could be risky" and Ozzie went "well, let's just take him anyway..."

Cody at 25 I'll give you was a bit of a stretch, but there were a fair number of mocks towards the end of the pre-draft season which started putting hm in the 1st round. His agility for someone of his frame was really starting to intrigue teams.

[baltimore_hokie]

Kindle was projected in most mocks to be gone before 25. Not a stretch to see him there, unless you factor in some hype into this knee injury. Personally, I don't think the Ravens draft Kindle if they think he is going to degenerate like that. The medical staff aobviously saw something where they said either "we can fix this and he'll be able to play" or "there's nothing wrong". I doubt the medical staff would've seen the injury and said "hmmm, this could be risky" and Ozzie went "well, let's just take him anyway..."

Cody at 25 I'll give you was a bit of a stretch, but there were a fair number of mocks towards the end of the pre-draft season which started putting hm in the 1st round. His agility for someone of his frame was really starting to intrigue teams.

Almost every mock draft going around had Cody going to the Chargers at 27, so two spots earlier at 25 doesn't seem all that much of a reach...let alone 30 picks later than that.

It's not worth trying to show any type of logic to jonboy on this one. It sounds like his mind is set based on some things he thinks, and that should matter for some reason.

It's really pointless to talk about this draft being a success or failure until this time next year, at the earliest.

[Jeremiah W]

Almost every mock draft going around had Cody going to the Chargers at 27, so two spots earlier at 25 doesn't seem all that much of a reach...let alone 30 picks later than that.

It's not worth trying to show any type of logic to jonboy on this one. It sounds like his mind is set based on some things he thinks, and that should matter for some reason.

It's really pointless to talk about this draft being a success or failure until this time next year, at the earliest.

I think if the draft was right after the college season Kindle and Cody go in the top 20 after looking glike the best 2 players in the championship game. It was getting fat after the season that hurt Cody's stock, and medical and mental questions that hurt Kindle who was in the top 10-20 in almost every mock I saw before the knee rumours really started. What suprised me about him was how highly the Ravens staff was talking him up as if they had no shot at getting him. Harbs mentioned as the possible pick for Philly when they traded up he was on air guessing it may be Thomas or Kindle. Decosta also talked about him on air sevral times predraft where he will give the top 5 prospects at each position but hardly ever mentions sleepers and 3rd round types.

The results of the draft are years away from judgment, but in terms of predraft value, filling needs and buliding depth it looks pretty good so far and should impact the team right away.

[CRZA938]

Same here. All I could find were sources saying he had "knee injuries" but nothing that explained the depth of those injuries.

If he a strain, then a year later had a partial tear, I'd have no concerns. Given that he saw the field all 4 seasons, this is the more likely scenario than him having a blow-out or a full tear.

The level of rehab at the pro level is far superior than NCAA so I am thinking they feel his injuries can be addressed.

Agreed on all accounts.

[TheFlacco]

"McKinney, Divens and Talavou"

Let's be honest here. These three guys are not starters for the baltimore ravens, the premier run-stopping team in the league for the last decade. They drafted Cody because he is EXACTLY the type of player they like in the middle of that defensive line.

[TheFlacco]

Two notes on this...

1) One thing I never understood is how Kindle got to be seen as a pass rusher. Dude had one great game in the Bowl game with a couple sacks. But he's never been a pass-rushing specialist. I love the guy's skills, but am concerned he's gonna have like 4 or 5 sacks, play pretty well but people will call him a failure cause a lot of talking media heads have been claiming he's got the potential to be a dominating pass rusher.

- C -

When Kindle was a junior and being double-teamed on every down (because they had Orakpo), he posted 53 tackles, 10 sacks, 14 TFL, 15 pressures, two PBU, a forced fumble and two fumble recoveries. His numbers came down a little bit his senior year when he was doubled all game, but make no mistake, the kid is a pass rusher.

[TheFlacco]

I meant to say, when he has a junior and NOT being double teamed on every down...

[trailhiker85]

It's really pointless to talk about this draft being a success or failure until this time next year, at the earliest.

This says it all, really. Interested as I am in seeing how Cody, Kindle, and the others do, rating the 2010 draft at this point is just a pleasant time-killing excercise. Now, if you wanted to rate last year's draft...

[CRZA938]

I will be happy to watch the 3rd and 4th quarter of the pre- season this year.

I think you make a good point. Each year I get more and more into the Ravens, the draft, the offseason in general, which makes the pre-season games interesting to me...

[CRZA938]

This says it all, really. Interested as I am in seeing how Cody, Kindle, and the others do, rating the 2010 draft at this point is just a pleasant time-killing excercise. Now, if you wanted to rate last year's draft...

Look, March Madness is long over and the O's suck. Please don't take this away from me!!!:laugh:

[jonboy79]

I don't remember their history exactly, but I remember the discussion on Peterson and why he fell to #7 very well. There were HUGE durability concerns about him because of the excessive use in college and the fact that he rarely got through any year fully healthy. The criticism on him was never that people didn't think he'd be a great player, but simply that they didn't think he'd last.

But it's a big difference taking someone with durability concerns high in the first round vs. middle of the second. At that area, you can afford to take a risk like that much more easily.

- C -

UNless I'm mistaken, he had ONE knee surgery. Big difference between 1 and 4... Kindle is all but guaranteed a shortened career. I wouldn't buy his jersey cuz he may not make it through his rookie deal.

[jonboy79]

It's been a rumor for a while, but I cannot find anything that there were 4 injuries. I know he needs / has had micro-fracture surgery which is a rather dicey surgery.

I know it wasn't 4 injuries. At least one procedure was a re-visit. I believe it was 3 injuries, 2 cartilage, 1 tendon... That is from memory.

[jonboy79]

Kindle was projected in most mocks to be gone before 25. Not a stretch to see him there, unless you factor in some hype into this knee injury. Personally, I don't think the Ravens draft Kindle if they think he is going to degenerate like that. The medical staff aobviously saw something where they said either "we can fix this and he'll be able to play" or "there's nothing wrong". I doubt the medical staff would've seen the injury and said "hmmm, this could be risky" and Ozzie went "well, let's just take him anyway..."

Cody at 25 I'll give you was a bit of a stretch, but there were a fair number of mocks towards the end of the pre-draft season which started putting hm in the 1st round. His agility for someone of his frame was really starting to intrigue teams.

Jerry Hughes was a player consistantly rated above Kindle all draft season. He was predicted to go anywhere from mid first to mid second. He went a tthte very end of the first round. Kindle went within a few picks of his value. So di d Cody. Neither were among the elite at their position.

There is no HYPE in 4 surgeries on one knee.

[jonboy79]

Almost every mock draft going around had Cody going to the Chargers at 27, so two spots earlier at 25 doesn't seem all that much of a reach...let alone 30 picks later than that.

It's not worth trying to show any type of logic to jonboy on this one. It sounds like his mind is set based on some things he thinks, and that should matter for some reason.

It's really pointless to talk about this draft being a success or failure until this time next year, at the earliest.

He was listed as a top 40-50 player on most of those same sites, that had the Chargers reaching to fill a big hole... like they eventually did in drafting their RB... MOst sites called it a reach during their description.

There was not a reliable draft resource that had Cody among the top 25 overazll plaers by draf ttime.

Someone above made the good point that right after the season, you may have easily seen both or either in the first round, by draft time? Different story...

[psuasskicker]

Kindle is all but guaranteed a shortened career. I wouldn't buy his jersey cuz he may not make it through his rookie deal.

Where'd you receive your medical training?

And how did you get such extensive access to Kindle to give him such a thorough examination?

Let's not exaggerate here. The guy passed through our medical staff with few if any concerns when a guy like Gronkowski didn't. I feel confident we wouldn't have drafted him had the Ravens medical staff believed he "is all but guaranteed a shortened career," and I'm quite certain I'll take their opinions of his health over anyone's on this board.

No one in this business is ensured of a long, healthy career. Maybe Kindle doesn't make it. But I think it's excessive worrying on your part if you're really that convinced he has no shot at a healthy playing career.

- C -

[Jeremiah W]

Where'd you receive your medical training?

And how did you get such extensive access to Kindle to give him such a thorough examination?

Seriously. We can debate how good he was in college, how he looked according to reporters in OTAs, but we have no idea what the inside of his knee looks like and would not know what to make of it even if we did.

[RavenScallywag]

Sorry jonboy, I really think you are reaching to justify your dislike of our draft.

Seriously, what kind of logic would have the Ravens taking a player who likely won't play more then 2-3 years at that spot?


Ozzie Newsome is SO desperate to retain his title as "Draft Gem King" that he takes Kindle just so everyone respects him for another year
The Ravens Medical Staff had been drinking, didn't think they'd actually be consulted during the draft. They actually picked up the chart for John Harbaugh and said "Wow, I don't know what other teams are talking about, his knee looks PERFECT"
In a desperate ploy to shut up fans complaining about the CBs, Steve B says "let's take this kid, he can pass rush for a few years until he's feeble and hobbling, and then we don't have to pay him like a big nam pass rusher. I'm sure we'll have better corners by then..."
Dick Cass rubbed his hands together and said "Mwahahaha, I will RUIN the Ravens, so Steve is FORCED to turn the team over to ME...and then, I will RULE THE WORLD!"


In all seriousness, you know how we treat the draft. We may not hit on every pick, but we have a clear plan on what we want out of our top picks. If the medical staff thought he was a big gamble, no way we take him. I think Ozzie would rather reach and take someone who would contribute than go after a guy who may not be able to last more than a year or two...

[TheFlacco]

Jerry Hughes was a player consistantly rated above Kindle all draft season. He was predicted to go anywhere from mid first to mid second. He went a tthte very end of the first round. Kindle went within a few picks of his value. So di d Cody. Neither were among the elite at their position.



Kindle was the number one rated OLB in the draft by every board I saw. He was also a first rounder on every board I saw. I'd like to see your list of sources that had him projected to fall that far into the second round...

[RavenScallywag]

Actually, I think Sean Weatherspoon was rated above Kindle...or at least they were 1a and 1b.

[jonboy79]

Where'd you receive your medical training?

And how did you get such extensive access to Kindle to give him such a thorough examination?

Let's not exaggerate here. The guy passed through our medical staff with few if any concerns when a guy like Gronkowski didn't. I feel confident we wouldn't have drafted him had the Ravens medical staff believed he "is all but guaranteed a shortened career," and I'm quite certain I'll take their opinions of his health over anyone's on this board.

No one in this business is ensured of a long, healthy career. Maybe Kindle doesn't make it. But I think it's excessive worrying on your part if you're really that convinced he has no shot at a healthy playing career.

- C -

Simple... please provide me with a name of a player in the NFL that has played for several years after 4 surgical procedure on a single knee. If you can find even a single one then I will retract my statement.

It's simple statistics here.

And Trap, by the few weeks leading to draft day, Kindle was out of the 1st round on every single site I saw... And Witherspoon was MUCH mroe highly rated.

[TheFlacco]

"And Trap, by the few weeks leading to draft day, Kindle was out of the 1st round on every single site I saw... And Witherspoon was MUCH mroe highly rated."

You must not have looked at very many draft boards. Kindle was a projected first rounder in almost all of the ones that I saw

[HoustonRaven]

Simple... please provide me with a name of a player in the NFL that has played for several years after 4 surgical procedure on a single knee. If you can find even a single one then I will retract my statement

He did not have 4 surgeries -- he had 4 injuries, only one of which actually required surgery. He may or may not have a 2nd, that being the micro fracture surgery.

The media ran with a rumor and spread like a virus come draft day. Everyone claims he has had 4 surgeries but not a soul can come up with what and when.

[B-more Ravor]

Jerry Hughes was a player consistantly rated above Kindle all draft season. He was predicted to go anywhere from mid first to mid second. He went a tthte very end of the first round. Kindle went within a few picks of his value.


And Trap, by the few weeks leading to draft day, Kindle was out of the 1st round on every single site I saw... And Witherspoon was MUCH mroe highly rated.

Really?

Don Banks/SI (4/22): Kindle - #24, Weatherspoon - #26, Hughes - #32.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/don_banks/04/22/mock.draft.1/index.html

Peter King/SI (4/21): Kindle - #23, Weatherspoon - #26, Hughes - not in 1st round

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/04/21/mock.draft/index.html

Mike Mayock/NFLN (4/21): Kindle in Top 20 players at #18 (top rated OLB). Weatherspoon and Hughes not in top 20.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/09000d5d817695a5/article/williams-jumps-to-no-7-prospect-big-12-dominates-top-10

A comparison of many mocks (4/13):

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/377814-2010-nfl-mock-draft-kiper-mcshay-10-experts-mock-it-out#page/2

McShay/ESPN: Kindle - #13, Hughes - #31, Wetherspoon - NR
Kiper/ESPN: Kindle - #22, Weatherspoon - #26, Hughes - #32
Prisco/CBS: Kindle - #24, Hughes - #26, Weatherspoon - NR
Judge/CBS: Kindle - #26, Hughes - #29, Weatherspoon - #32

Also, you may note that Cody's name is showing up late in the 1st in some of these mocks.

[baltimore_hokie]

Really?

Don Banks/SI (4/22): Kindle - #24, Weatherspoon - #26, Hughes - #32.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/don_banks/04/22/mock.draft.1/index.html

Peter King/SI (4/21): Kindle - #23, Weatherspoon - #26, Hughes - not in 1st round

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/04/21/mock.draft/index.html

Mike Mayock/NFLN (4/21): Kindle in Top 20 players at #18 (top rated OLB). Weatherspoon and Hughes not in top 20.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/09000d5d817695a5/article/williams-jumps-to-no-7-prospect-big-12-dominates-top-10

A comparison of many mocks (4/13):

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/377814-2010-nfl-mock-draft-kiper-mcshay-10-experts-mock-it-out#page/2

McShay/ESPN: Kindle - #13, Hughes - #31, Wetherspoon - NR
Kiper/ESPN: Kindle - #22, Weatherspoon - #26, Hughes - #32
Prisco/CBS: Kindle - #24, Hughes - #26, Weatherspoon - NR
Judge/CBS: Kindle - #26, Hughes - #29, Weatherspoon - #32

Also, you may note that Cody's name is showing up late in the 1st in some of these mocks.

There is no reason to bring logic into this discussion with jonboy. He didn't like this draft for some reason, and for some reason he thinks that his unfounded opinion should be accepted over an astounding majority of experts that completely disagree. Just let him be down on this draft in his little dream world...by himself.

[Stealthbirds80]

He did not have 4 surgeries -- he had 4 injuries, only one of which actually required surgery. He may or may not have a 2nd, that being the micro fracture surgery.

The media ran with a rumor and spread like a virus come draft day. Everyone claims he has had 4 surgeries but not a soul can come up with what and when.

I feel the same. Also, how many times do the Ravens have to prove the other 31 teams wrong on draft picks? Every team wants the perfect prospect and how many times does that work? Kindle may or may not be the second coming of Bouleware (not comparing), but I wouldn't bet against our scouts, Decosta, or Oz anyday. They did the homework.

[jonboy79]

There is no reason to bring logic into this discussion with jonboy. He didn't like this draft for some reason, and for some reason he thinks that his unfounded opinion should be accepted over an astounding majority of experts that completely disagree. Just let him be down on this draft in his little dream world...by himself.

I misrememberd some mocks, still doesn't change my opinion. It;s an average draft that the masses love because of groupthink. To ski-p out on really your only remaining need while drafting questionable one dimensional prospects at positions of strengths doesn't make a good draft in my opinion. I really don't care who believes what, it is simply my opinion and I am more then entitled to it, whether you like to admit that or not. 3 years from now we will have someghign to talk about. Perhaps this year we can see how badly we are missign a secondary player.

But I admit that the majority of drafts had him as a first rounder, jsut not drafts I agreed with. I still don't think he was much better then the 40th overall prospect in the draft.

[psuasskicker]

Simple... please provide me with a name of a player in the NFL that has played for several years after 4 surgical procedure on a single knee. If you can find even a single one then I will retract my statement.

It's simple statistics here.

Just a plain old "Oh, I don't have any of that stuff" would have been fine.

"Simple statistics" would be if you had a bunch of examples of players that have had his exact problems and exact surgeries that you could point to and say "See, doesn't work out ever!" Let's not pretend this guy blew his ACL four times. You don't even know what the surgeries are...he might have just gotten his knee scoped four times for all you know.

But you don't have that. You have "zero examples of four surgeries on one knee that made it" and assume that automatically means it can't happen. IOW, you have no idea what you're talking about, but think you can make it sound good.

Name for me one person that has ever walked on Mars. Obviously, we cannot nor will not ever walk on Mars.

Name for me one person that has ever successfully captured or killed Osama Bin Laden. Obviously, we cannot nor will not ever capture or kill him.

The absence of a positive does not ever prove a negative.

- C -

[purplepoe]

Sergio Kindle absolutely did NOT have 4 surgeries on that knee.

He had one and it was minor.

PP

[psuasskicker]

Sergio Kindle absolutely did NOT have 4 surgeries on that knee.

He had one and it was minor.

PP

In which case, if he has a long and prosperous career, I still won't have an example, which means it's not possible for it to happen. Dammit!

- C -

[RavenScallywag]

To ski-p out on really your only remaining need while drafting questionable one dimensional prospects at positions of strengths doesn't make a good draft in my opinion.

In my opinion, this is the only way you can LOSE at the draft. Drafting for need rarely works out. The Ravens have done it before...Travis Taylor, Kyle Boller, Devard Darling...

I'll grant you that drafting Jimmy Clausen at #25 would've made no sense, but neither would have drafting a guy like Brandon Lafell or Golden Tate at 25 simply because "we need a WR". I guess your argument is we should've taken Chris Cook, Kyle Wilson, or Patrick Robinson...these guys may pan out yet, but we didn't just have one hole to fill. Kindle, like him or not, fills a hole as a pass rusher. Cody, like him or not, fills a hole as DL depth and a backup/potential replacement to Kelly Gregg. Dickson and Pitta, agree or disagree about the strategy of drafting both, fill a hole of an absolute shamble of a TE corps.

So if you're calling the shots, let's say you take Wilson at #25...you have one 2nd round pick, then nothing until David Reed/Art Jones, then Ramon Harewood. So now you've "filled our hole at CB", assuming that Wilson can play at a good level from Day 1. What do you do at TE? At NT? At OLB?

That's my main point with the Kindle and Cody picks. Sure, they aren't without risks. But neither would be taking a CB at #25 who we felt wasn't as highly rated.

[baltimore_hokie]

I misrememberd some mocks, still doesn't change my opinion. It;s an average draft that the masses love because of groupthink. To ski-p out on really your only remaining need while drafting questionable one dimensional prospects at positions of strengths doesn't make a good draft in my opinion. I really don't care who believes what, it is simply my opinion and I am more then entitled to it, whether you like to admit that or not. 3 years from now we will have someghign to talk about. Perhaps this year we can see how badly we are missign a secondary player.

But I admit that the majority of drafts had him as a first rounder, jsut not drafts I agreed with. I still don't think he was much better then the 40th overall prospect in the draft.

Oh, and you "know" that the injured players in the secondary won't be ready. Not a chance.

Well, even though it won't happen, here are a few quotes of minor importance:


“I definitely think I’ll be ready to rock and roll in a few days when camp starts,” [Fabian] Washington told BaltimoreRavens.com.


“I’m doing a lot more football-specific stuff, like cutting, breaking in and out of routes, backpedaling,” he explained. ”It’s a lot of footwork and conditioning stuff that I couldn’t do earlier in the offseason. It’s crazy because now that I am able to run, I have to pack months of conditioning that my teammates have been doing into a few weeks.”

[CRZA938]

Simple... please provide me with a name of a player in the NFL that has played for several years after 4 surgical procedure on a single knee. If you can find even a single one then I will retract my statement.



Mark Schlereth

Before ending his playing career, Schlereth endured 29 surgeries, 20 on his knees (15 left, 5 right).

[TheFlacco]

Listen, I think the Ravens would have loved to have picked Kyle Wilson in the first round. The problem was, we traded valuable draft picks to get Anquan Boldin in purple this year (anybody complaining about that move?). So they made a decision, do we take Wilson in the first round, or move back and get a bunch more picks? Everybody knows there are no sure things in the NFL draft (or very few). The more picks, the more likely you are to hit on a superstar. The question is, would you rather have Kyle Wilson or Sergio Kindle AND Ed Dickson AND Dennis Pitta. I'd take the later, any day of the week. Had Chris Cook been available at 43, the Ravens would have taken him, but he wasn't. Ozzie doesn't change his board to suit need

[Dave Lap]

Listen, I think the Ravens would have loved to have picked Kyle Wilson in the first round. The problem was, we traded valuable draft picks to get Anquan Boldin in purple this year (anybody complaining about that move?). So they made a decision, do we take Wilson in the first round, or move back and get a bunch more picks? Everybody knows there are no sure things in the NFL draft (or very few). The more picks, the more likely you are to hit on a superstar. The question is, would you rather have Kyle Wilson or Sergio Kindle AND Ed Dickson AND Dennis Pitta. I'd take the later, any day of the week. Had Chris Cook been available at 43, the Ravens would have taken him, but he wasn't. Ozzie doesn't change his board to suit need

Also, this was rated as one of the deepest drafts in years. If there was a year to pick to trade down for more picks, this was it.

[B-more Ravor]

Mark Schlereth

Before ending his playing career, Schlereth endured 29 surgeries, 20 on his knees (15 left, 5 right).

Michael McCrary also has multiple procedures on his knees. His knees did finally give out on him - but not until after 9 years in the league.

[psuasskicker]

Wait.

So you guys are saying it's POSSIBLE to have a decent career with multiple surgeries?

I don't believe you. Please name just ONE more example that shows this to be the case.

:261695:

- C -

[HoustonRaven]

Kellen Winslow has had 5 surgeries on the same knee (http://www.pewterreport.com/articles/view/7037) ....

Former Bengal RB Reggie Williams has had 17 surgeries, 2 total replacements and a micro fracture surgery (http://retiredplayers.org/2009/05/28/update-on-former-bengal-reggie-williams/) during his career ...

[jonboy79]

Just a plain old "Oh, I don't have any of that stuff" would have been fine.

"Simple statistics" would be if you had a bunch of examples of players that have had his exact problems and exact surgeries that you could point to and say "See, doesn't work out ever!" Let's not pretend this guy blew his ACL four times. You don't even know what the surgeries are...he might have just gotten his knee scoped four times for all you know.

But you don't have that. You have "zero examples of four surgeries on one knee that made it" and assume that automatically means it can't happen. IOW, you have no idea what you're talking about, but think you can make it sound good.

Name for me one person that has ever walked on Mars. Obviously, we cannot nor will not ever walk on Mars.

Name for me one person that has ever successfully captured or killed Osama Bin Laden. Obviously, we cannot nor will not ever capture or kill him.

The absence of a positive does not ever prove a negative.

- C -

I didn't say he couldn't have a long career, simply that it wasn't likely at all. That is simply shown by the fact that there is not a bevy of players with his condition (whatever that may be) playing long careers in the NFL. We have examples of players like McGahee having those types of careers after MAJOR surgery, but not such repetition in young man's life.

I'm not saying I have insider info that his tendon is on threads or anything remotely like that, simply doing a basic logical "leap" about a 21 year old with reportedly 4 knee surgeries(one possibly being the two year rental microfracture surgery). .

[jonboy79]

Sergio Kindle absolutely did NOT have 4 surgeries on that knee.

He had one and it was minor.

PP

Link please? That is not at all what was reported pre-draft.

Enoiugh found later.

So it is REASONABLE to think he MAY have a long career, but does NO ONE see the risk there? Does NO ONE see that there is a near absolute likelyhood that he will have at least one if not more surgeries again? Does anyone see how he is broken goods in a way not usually found in the first rouned? Does anyone see why every GM passed at least once(CAR excluded, Oz included).

That's all I'm saying, we drafted damaged questionable prospects at positions of strength.

[jonboy79]

In my opinion, this is the only way you can LOSE at the draft. Drafting for need rarely works out. The Ravens have done it before...Travis Taylor, Kyle Boller, Devard Darling...

I'll grant you that drafting Jimmy Clausen at #25 would've made no sense, but neither would have drafting a guy like Brandon Lafell or Golden Tate at 25 simply because "we need a WR". I guess your argument is we should've taken Chris Cook, Kyle Wilson, or Patrick Robinson...these guys may pan out yet, but we didn't just have one hole to fill. Kindle, like him or not, fills a hole as a pass rusher. Cody, like him or not, fills a hole as DL depth and a backup/potential replacement to Kelly Gregg. Dickson and Pitta, agree or disagree about the strategy of drafting both, fill a hole of an absolute shamble of a TE corps.

So if you're calling the shots, let's say you take Wilson at #25...you have one 2nd round pick, then nothing until David Reed/Art Jones, then Ramon Harewood. So now you've "filled our hole at CB", assuming that Wilson can play at a good level from Day 1. What do you do at TE? At NT? At OLB?

That's my main point with the Kindle and Cody picks. Sure, they aren't without risks. But neither would be taking a CB at #25 who we felt wasn't as highly rated.

Michael Oher, Joe Flacco, Terrell Suggs, Haloti Ngata... need I go on? All drafted for need... All teams draft for need, even the Ravens. It would be silly not to.

Corner was a hole coming into the draft that CLEARLY overshadowed ALL other needs combined. Boldin made WR a luxury.

At TE, we still take Pitta later...

My Problem is that I think the Ravens are better with Wilson, Pitta, McKinney and Barnes then Walt Harris, Dickson, Pitta Cody and Kindle. THe Cody and Kindle picks come at the expense of lumps of clay currently in house and promising, where as we desperately sign a vet that will not be up to par to fill corner.

[jonboy79]

Oh, and you "know" that the injured players in the secondary won't be ready. Not a chance.

Well, even though it won't happen, here are a few quotes of minor importance:

I certainly hope they are ready, we are COUNTING on BOTH of them, and that is my problem.

[jonboy79]

Mark Schlereth

Before ending his playing career, Schlereth endured 29 surgeries, 20 on his knees (15 left, 5 right).

impressive, thank you if real.

[jonboy79]

Listen, I think the Ravens would have loved to have picked Kyle Wilson in the first round. The problem was, we traded valuable draft picks to get Anquan Boldin in purple this year (anybody complaining about that move?). So they made a decision, do we take Wilson in the first round, or move back and get a bunch more picks? Everybody knows there are no sure things in the NFL draft (or very few). The more picks, the more likely you are to hit on a superstar. The question is, would you rather have Kyle Wilson or Sergio Kindle AND Ed Dickson AND Dennis Pitta. I'd take the later, any day of the week. Had Chris Cook been available at 43, the Ravens would have taken him, but he wasn't. Ozzie doesn't change his board to suit need

Great point, and it actually points out a flaw in my reasoning, but I'm allowed, I'm a fan.

I liked the trade at the time, but I felt we needed to trade back up, but we didn't and "essentially" no one else did. The trade which looked good at first, looked HORRIBLE once all the usable corners were gone. I truly feel that Ozzie feels very bitten by that after the fact. I believe he absolutely had at least 3 corners rated before Kindle, that were availabele at 25. I believe he really wanted one, and I think we needed one.

20/20 Hindsight, but it's still a reason I don't likehhte draft. I think by 43 we were shut out of really all the elite prospects, and that is kind of what happens when EVERY GM(except CAR) has passed on their first choice to draft who is remaining. Some twice and even three times.

This draft simply reminds me of another draft without a 1st rounder, that headlined a DT named Dwan Edwards.

[Dave Lap]

Michael Oher, Joe Flacco, Terrell Suggs, Haloti Ngata... need I go on? All drafted for need... All teams draft for need, even the Ravens. It would be silly not to.

Corner was a hole coming into the draft that CLEARLY overshadowed ALL other needs combined. Boldin made WR a luxury.

At TE, we still take Pitta later...

My Problem is that I think the Ravens are better with Wilson, Pitta, McKinney and Barnes then Walt Harris, Dickson, Pitta Cody and Kindle. THe Cody and Kindle picks come at the expense of lumps of clay currently in house and promising, where as we desperately sign a vet that will not be up to par to fill corner.

As far as drafting for need: It's clear to me that the main priority we have when drafting is to take the best available player- with some exceptions. When the best player available intersects with a need we have at a particular postion it's the best of both worlds.

The fact that we didn't take a CB in the draft when it clearly was a needed position this year is evidence of the BPA philosophy at work.

You may think that we may have been better off with the bevy of players you listed instead of the ones we drafted and, who knows, maybe you are right. However I am going with OZ and company as the experts.

The player aquisition strategy that yields the best results, in my opinion, is to grab the best players available in the draft and not worry about team needs too much. Why? Because the draft is a freakin crap shoot and the best way to maximize results is to take the guys that have the best chance to do well in the league. This begs the question of how do we fill needs then? The best recipe for success in building a team is to hire and keep great scouts, use their experience to help choose the best players available in the draft, and fill specific needs through trades and free agents. (It's also important to have a great medical staff to evaluate medical conditions of prospective players.) It's often too hard to fill specific need through the draft because it's so hard to project how well guys will play at the next level. With trades/free agents they have history in the league so the element of risk is drastically lowered.

That being said, player aquisition is very very complex. There are a lot ways to build a team. You CAN build a great team drafting for need. It's not impossible but it IS harder and statistically less likely to yield postive results, in my opinion.

I'm very glad the Ravens operate the way they do. They aren't perfect. No team is. But they are effective. Very effective.

[HoustonRaven]

Ask the pre-Shannahan Redskins, Lions and Raiders if drafting by need worked for them.

How anyone can be a long time fan if this team and not see the success of Oz's drafting the best player available is mind-boggling.

[TheFlacco]

Michael Oher, Joe Flacco, Terrell Suggs, Haloti Ngata... need I go on? All drafted for need... All teams draft for need, even the Ravens. It would be silly not to.


You say that those players were drafted for need, and perhaps to some extent they were. But are you gonna argue that better players were bypassed in order to get those guys? Do you think there was a better player drafted after Oher, Flacco, Suggs, or Ngata? I'd have to look at the drafts, but I can't imagine there was a "better player" taken after any of those guys.
Sometimes the "best player available" strategy and the Raven's position needs synch up...doesn't mean they're not staying true to their board.

[TheFlacco]

"Landing a talent like Sergio Kindle well into Round 2 could qualify as among the top few steals in the whole draft. But beyond several other solid picks, even for a draft-focused guy like me, I can't overlook how significant the addition of Anquan Boldin is. While Boldin isn't the type to truly stretch the field, he's a reliable target that can battle with a No. 1 corner and deepen that entire portion of the depth chart. No team, perhaps outside of Cincy, did more to help their quarterback than the Ravens."

-Mel Kiper

And I'll take Mel's opinion over anybody else's on this board

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Holy crap...this thread is still going?

[trailhiker85]

As has been stated before, the success or failure of this year's draft is mere speculation without the benefit of time to see how things pan out.

That said ...it doesn't seem logical to me to accuse the FO of failing to draft for need. For one thing, virtually every position is a need every year, with the possible exception of franchise QB. Why not look to improve, say, your linebacking corps even if it's not considered a dire need? Looking down the road to the Raven's needs in 5 years time, would a Chris Cook give the team greater long-term value than a Sergio Kindle? I don't know. The Raven's FO probably doesn't know either ...BUT, I'm quite sure whatever projections they make are better than anything I could come up with.

Another thing to remember is that the draft is NOT the only source of new players. The signings of Travis Fisher, Ken Hamlin, and Walt Harris show that the Ravens aren't ignoring the defensive backfield. Now, none of these guys will be confused with an Ed Reed or a Nnamdi Asomugha. But nor should we assume they are some sort of laughable, incompetent castoffs signed in sheer desperation. Or that holdovers like Chris Carr are incapable of improvement. Indeed, given the competition I would venture to say that our secondary is likely to actually be better in 2010 than in 2009.

A lot of things will shake out in training camp and the preseason.

[jonboy79]

As has been stated before, the success or failure of this year's draft is mere speculation without the benefit of time to see how things pan out.

That said ...it doesn't seem logical to me to accuse the FO of failing to draft for need. For one thing, virtually every position is a need every year, with the possible exception of franchise QB. Why not look to improve, say, your linebacking corps even if it's not considered a dire need? Looking down the road to the Raven's needs in 5 years time, would a Chris Cook give the team greater long-term value than a Sergio Kindle? I don't know. The Raven's FO probably doesn't know either ...BUT, I'm quite sure whatever projections they make are better than anything I could come up with.

Another thing to remember is that the draft is NOT the only source of new players. The signings of Travis Fisher, Ken Hamlin, and Walt Harris show that the Ravens aren't ignoring the defensive backfield. Now, none of these guys will be confused with an Ed Reed or a Nnamdi Asomugha. But nor should we assume they are some sort of laughable, incompetent castoffs signed in sheer desperation. Or that holdovers like Chris Carr are incapable of improvement. Indeed, given the competition I would venture to say that our secondary is likely to actually be better in 2010 than in 2009.

A lot of things will shake out in training camp and the preseason.

well thought out and written post, and you are correct. It seems you feel a bit more highly of our emergency band-aid on the secondary, but it certainly remains to be seen. One thing is for sure, no matter what happenns, CB is still BY FAR our biggest need again next year. There is almost nothing that can change that. The only real CB's going forward are Webb coming off Injury, and Foxy...
I hope Webb is as good as he showed in his short burst of time. I weas really excited for his future, and liked his attitude. I hope he doesn't get gun-shy after this injury.

[trailhiker85]

I hope Webb is as good as he showed in his short burst of time. I weas really excited for his future, and liked his attitude. I hope he doesn't get gun-shy after this injury.

Webb is probably my favorite amongst the young Ravens added within the last year or two. I'd be quite satisfied even if he had to sit out part of 2010, as long as it meant staying healthy long-term. But I wouldn't be surprised if he were a starter again by late season.

[purplepoe]

Link please? That is not at all what was reported pre-draft.

Enoiugh found later.

So it is REASONABLE to think he MAY have a long career, but does NO ONE see the risk there? Does NO ONE see that there is a near absolute likelyhood that he will have at least one if not more surgeries again? Does anyone see how he is broken goods in a way not usually found in the first rouned? Does anyone see why every GM passed at least once(CAR excluded, Oz included).

That's all I'm saying, we drafted damaged questionable prospects at positions of strength.

Dude, enough.

Stop posting BS.

The guy didn't have 4 surgeries. He had a college career like countless other former and current NFL players.

I don't need a link to tell you he didn't have 4 surgeries.

You know enough of the draft and players to form an opinion. You don't need to use falsehoods to back up your opinion.

PP

[B-more Ravor]

impressive, thank you if real.

Weak, dude - Really weak.

[psuasskicker]

does NO ONE see the risk there? Does NO ONE see that there is a near absolute likelyhood that he will have at least one if not more surgeries again? Does anyone see how he is broken goods in a way not usually found in the first rouned?

LOL

No, everyone sees risk there. No one's said this guy is without risk. Your hyperbole - which is nothing new for you - is staggering.

No, no one sees near absolute likelihood that he will have at least one if not more surgeries again. You've already overstated the number of surgeries he's had. Quit fear-mongering.

I'm pretty sure no one cares if anyone sees how he's broken goods in a way not usually found in the first round since we didn't actually draft him in the first round.

- C -

[HoustonRaven]

Simple... please provide me with a name of a player in the NFL that has played for several years after 4 surgical procedure on a single knee. If you can find even a single one then I will retract my statement.

It's simple statistics here

Ok. A few folks, including myself, have shown numerous players who played long careers with 4 (or more) knee procedures.

Time for you to find Kindle's four knee surgeries. Hell, find more than one.

[CRZA938]

I liked the trade at the time, but I felt we needed to trade back up, but we didn't and "essentially" no one else did. The trade which looked good at first, looked HORRIBLE once all the usable corners were gone.


According to our own Tony Lombardi, Ozzie tried to trade back up after the trade with Denver, but couldn't find a suitable partner. That's the thing with a live draft, there are no sure things. I would argue that the trade down, regardless of your overall position was not "HORRIBLE" based on the players selected (but now we are going in circles).

[Stealthbirds80]

According to our own Tony Lombardi, Ozzie tried to trade back up after the trade with Denver, but couldn't find a suitable partner. That's the thing with a live draft, there are no sure things. I would argue that the trade down, regardless of your overall position was not "HORRIBLE" based on the players selected (but now we are going in circles).

Do we know who that trade up target was? A corner maybe or was it still Kindle? I think they said something about it being either that CB Cook I think or Kindle. Can't remember.

[RavenScallywag]

The Ravens made it clear they liked Cook. I think he was the target if we got in at 31. Once he made it past the Saints, I think we were secretly hoping he made it to our pick, but the Vikings took him with the 2nd pick in the 2nd round. After that, we turned our attention to our next highest player on our board, Kindle.

[jonboy79]

Do we know who that trade up target was? A corner maybe or was it still Kindle? I think they said something about it being either that CB Cook I think or Kindle. Can't remember.

Cook is the name that floated around the days following the draft. I believe that an effort was made. I believe that Cook was the target. they are fairly straight shooters. I am simply DISAPOINTED that the move was unable to be made, as it ruined the draft in my eyes.

It is not as bad as if we could not trade back up for Flacco, don't get me wrong, but Corner depth is absolutely important.

[jonboy79]

Ok. A few folks, including myself, have shown numerous players who played long careers with 4 (or more) knee procedures.

Time for you to find Kindle's four knee surgeries. Hell, find more than one.



Likely needs microfracture surgery, Serious risk could limit career
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft10/news/story?id=5130610

From the Ravens site, saying they did not redflag him despite 4 procedures on his right knee, but have not verified the need for microfracture surgery
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=nfl&id=5777

Done...

SO Gronk's back being a red-flag I understand, but what else constitutes a dramatically worse injury red-flag then 4 knee surgeries? I am curious about that.

hmm, it sounds like I didn't say anything fantastical that other GM's didn't think... at least one took him off the board entirely... I actually think he was picked at a fair value point... just nothing specail .


And for the record, on the Rotoworld site, Shefter states before the draft that he'd be surprised if he were drafted in round 2.....

[purplepoe]

Likely needs microfracture surgery, Serious risk could limit career
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft10/news/story?id=5130610

From the Ravens site, saying they did not redflag him despite 4 procedures on his right knee, but have not verified the need for microfracture surgery
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=nfl&id=5777

Done...

SO Gronk's back being a red-flag I understand, but what else constitutes a dramatically worse injury red-flag then 4 knee surgeries? I am curious about that.

hmm, it sounds like I didn't say anything fantastical that other GM's didn't think... at least one took him off the board entirely... I actually think he was picked at a fair value point... just nothing specail .


And for the record, on the Rotoworld site, Shefter states before the draft that he'd be surprised if he were drafted in round 2.....

My god man. You don't give up. One outlet at UT said something about a possible microfracture surgery down the line and then every outlet in the country ran with it. Guess what? Terrence Cody might need it at some point too!

Your rotoworld link doesn't prove anything.

The SITE said "despite 4 procedures". The Ravens didn't say that.

I will tell you once again that Kindle in no way shape or form had 4 surgeries on his knee.

PP

[Jeremiah W]

Who cares anyway? It will work out or it won't. He was a 2nd round pick and we have 10 freaking linebackers anyway. By the end of camp there will be at least 4 healthy and good OLBs on the roster, most likley Kindle will be one of them.

Did anyone see the national chamionship game? Kindle did not look like a guy playing on one good knee.

[TheFlacco]

"However, Kindle plummeted due to teams’ reservations about a knee that has been repaired surgically four times with one report suggesting that he might ultimately need microfracture surgery.
Kindle said he doesn’t think he’ll need to have another procedure."

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Ravens-land-Sergio-Kindle-Terrence-Cody-in-second-round.html

The guy clearly has some knee issues. But there isn't a chance in a thousand that we land Kindle where we did, if he didn't have those issues. Did we take a chance on him: Yup. But the upside is huge if he can stay healthy. Bill Tessendorf apparently didn't red-flag him, and I trust his opinion. We'll just have to wait and see.

[baltimore_hokie]

Doesn't anyone find it suspicious that these reports of multiple knee surgeries didn't seem to surface until the day of the Draft?

[purplepoe]

Doesn't anyone find it suspicious that these reports of multiple knee surgeries didn't seem to surface until the day of the Draft?

Not to mention there is no quote from ANYONE saying it's true.

It's just outlets like rotoworld and NFP running it.

The reason is because it's flat out 100% untrue.

PP

[CRZA938]

Likely needs microfracture surgery, Serious risk could limit career
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft10/news/story?id=5130610


The possibility of microfracture surgery isn't a fact, but the opinion of one confirmed team doctor and possibly a few others (none of which were on the Raven Staff).



From the Ravens site, saying they did not redflag him despite 4 procedures on his right knee, but have not verified the need for microfracture surgery
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=nfl&id=5777


But we still have no idea what type of procedures were done. Our doctors do and cleared him. Yes, it is ok to be concerned, but as someone has already stated, Ozzie would not draft someone who was all but guaranteed a shortened career as you have suggested.

[808 Raven]

Doesn't anyone find it suspicious that these reports of multiple knee surgeries didn't seem to surface until the day of the Draft?

Definitely. Though it seems like every year in the weeks leading up to the draft, there's always reports "leaked" or rumors spread regarding character/medical concerns of draft prospects. Trying to figure out what info is real and what's bs and leaked just to try and cause a prospect's draft stock to slip is the difficult part. Oz has consistently shown why he's one of the best in the business and I'll trust his judgement.

[jonboy79]

Not to mention there is no quote from ANYONE saying it's true.

It's just outlets like rotoworld and NFP running it.

The reason is because it's flat out 100% untrue.

PP

Seriously? It is ALL OVER THE INTERNET, and was widely reported on TV for three days, but because you say so it is untrue?

More links... but wait, the setting sun is less believable then Purple Poe right?
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/blog/2010/04/ravens_secondround_pick_sergio_kindle.html

[purplepoe]

Seriously? It is ALL OVER THE INTERNET, and was widely reported on TV for three days, but because you say so it is untrue?

More links... but wait, the setting sun is less believable then Purple Poe right?
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/blog/2010/04/ravens_secondround_pick_sergio_kindle.html

You just don't get it.

Every single report you claim is proof stems from ONE false allegation jonboy.

Do you think the Sun has some source that confirmed this?

I do know he didn't have 4 surgeries.

You hated the draft. I get it. You wanted a CB. We all get it.

Please provide me with a quote or a link that isn't just some 2nd rate hack reporting what someone else reported.

It's flat out untrue that he had 4 surgeries.

PP

[jonboy79]

The possibility of microfracture surgery isn't a fact, but the opinion of one confirmed team doctor and possibly a few others (none of which were on the Raven Staff).



But we still have no idea what type of procedures were done. Our doctors do and cleared him. Yes, it is ok to be concerned, but as someone has already stated, Ozzie would not draft someone who was all but guaranteed a shortened career as you have suggested.

Yes it is some doctor's opinion that he needs it NOW, before he can play, and it is other's that it can wait a two or three... I doubt there are opinions he does not need it ever. That's a pretty varied opinion.
I think it's clear his knee is usable at the moment, and that is what the Ravens seem to have been looking at. I will not dispte that, as I am not a docto, as has been thouroughly shown. I just don't like draftinga 22 year so sure to have knee injuries.

It has been reported amongst my links that he has very little right knee cartilage. I would imagine that most, if not all procedures were to clean that up. I also remember hearing around draft time that of the 4 surgeries, 1 was an infection cleanup much like the 2nd Brady surgery.

I'm hip witht he Arthroscopic suregery stuff guys, I understand that you can pop an ACL and possibly come back next year stronger then ever with little chance of reoccurance, but there is a big difference between that and a YOUNG guy that has had repeated cartilage problems. It has ended careers short here in baltimore before, and it will again.

[jonboy79]

You just don't get it.

Every single report you claim is proof stems from ONE false allegation jonboy.

Do you think the Sun has some source that confirmed this?

I do know he didn't have 4 surgeries.

You hated the draft. I get it. You wanted a CB. We all get it.

Please provide me with a quote or a link that isn't just some 2nd rate hack reporting what someone else reported.

It's flat out untrue that he had 4 surgeries.

PP

You wish you were as credible as a second rate hack with a Major newspaper collumn... You hold far less weight in discussions.

YOU are a POSTER on a message board, we have provided three links including the Baltimroe SUN and I, ME, MYSELF is the one asked for a link when you simply say oit's flat out wrong?


Get over yourself. IF you aren't a doctor, friends of his or the like, you don't matter.

[Jeremiah W]

Yes it is some doctor's opinion that he needs it NOW, before he can play, and it is other's that it can wait a two or three... I doubt there are opinions he does not need it ever. That's a pretty varied opinion.
I think it's clear his knee is usable at the moment, and that is what the Ravens seem to have been looking at. I will not dispte that, as I am not a docto, as has been thouroughly shown. I just don't like draftinga 22 year so sure to have knee injuries.

It has been reported amongst my links that he has very little right knee cartilage. I would imagine that most, if not all procedures were to clean that up. I also remember hearing around draft time that of the 4 surgeries, 1 was an infection cleanup much like the 2nd Brady surgery.

I'm hip witht he Arthroscopic suregery stuff guys, I understand that you can pop an ACL and possibly come back next year stronger then ever with little chance of reoccurance, but there is a big difference between that and a YOUNG guy that has had repeated cartilage problems. It has ended careers short here in baltimore before, and it will again.

At the end of the day, other than Kindle and his peeps, even if you are right, who cares. It was a 2nd round pick. Maybe he is not better than Barnes, Burgess or McLain. It was still worth the gamble at that point, and maybe you are wrong about how messed up his knee really was/ is since the team doctors approved him and rejected others.

Players with perfect knees shred tehm all the time, and guys who blew 3 ligaments at the same time are still standing around holding a clipboard in Detroit.

[purplepoe]

You wish you were as credible as a second rate hack with a Major newspaper collumn... You hold far less weight in discussions.

YOU are a POSTER on a message board, we have provided three links including the Baltimroe SUN and I, ME, MYSELF is the one asked for a link when you simply say oit's flat out wrong?


Get over yourself. IF you aren't a doctor, friends of his or the like, you don't matter.

Ha.

This from a guy who has commented non stop about medical stuff he has no clue about.

Believe me, I am much more credible than anyone at the Sun or any other outlet on this subject.

Do you honestly think I'd just simply randomly pick the Kindle subject as something I might have a bit more info on than someone else on this board?

Really?

PP

[jonboy79]

At the end of the day, other than Kindle and his peeps, even if you are right, who cares. It was a 2nd round pick. Maybe he is not better than Barnes, Burgess or McLain. It was still worth the gamble at that point, and maybe you are wrong about how messed up his knee really was/ is since the team doctors approved him and rejected others.

Players with perfect knees shred tehm all the time, and guys who blew 3 ligaments at the same time are still standing around holding a clipboard in Detroit.

All I have been saying is that is why we got him where we did. If several if not MOST of the teams in the NFL weren't worried, he would have likely been a first rounder. He is a first round PLAYER, but as a total package it's clear why he fell to the second round.
This kid has a DUI and a driving into a house while texting to add to this knee. I've said over and over his value where we got him was FAIR, but it's no steal like everyone makes him out to be. hE IS A bigGGG RISK.

iIF, IF he stays healthy he SHOULD be better then all those guys we listed... but I think that'sa big risk, and I see that we have all of these guys in house that have some promise. BY bringing in another, we absolutely will be cutting a guy that catches on and perhaps starts with another team. So adding Kindle, also subtracts someone else, making his addition smaller.

My issue with Cody was more along the weight vs athleticism curve, and thus far post draft he has shown me something. I am willing to hope for the best, but again his addition comes at the expense of a promising youngster, again not probabbly likely to be as good individually.

The impact value of the selections are greatly reduced by their offsetting losses. I feel liek the team would have gotten better by a greater degree by addressing different areas at different values.

[jonboy79]

Ha.

This from a guy who has commented non stop about medical stuff he has no clue about.

Believe me, I am much more credible than anyone at the Sun or any other outlet on this subject.

Do you honestly think I'd just simply randomly pick the Kindle subject as something I might have a bit more info on than someone else on this board?

Really?

PP

if yoiu are so "in the know" leak a report... get Kindle to twitter it... come on, ya know, PROVE IT...

Seriously, all the news everywhwere says several, 4, microfracture needed, but YOU KNOW, that his knee is fine so II should believe you? If Aaron or Tony spoke to Kindle and confirmed to me via PM I would buy that.

He dropped to 43 after league-wide physicals... That's proof enough his knee is troublesome.

[HoustonRaven]

if yoiu are so "in the know" leak a report... get Kindle to twitter it... come on, ya know, PROVE IT

Oy. You made the wild claims then ask other people to prove their point?

Kindle did not have 4 surgeries. Living in Houston, you eat, sleep and breathe Longhorn football. I watched every game, read every local report, saw him play every season.

He did not have 4 surgeries. It did not happen.

Just stop already -- you're bordering on JW territory with this nonsense.

[jonboy79]

Oy. You made the wild claims then ask other people to prove their point?

Kindle did not have 4 surgeries. Living in Houston, you eat, sleep and breathe Longhorn football. I watched every game, read every local report, saw him play every season.

He did not have 4 surgeries. It did not happen.

Just stop already -- you're bordering on JW territory with this nonsense.

I didn't make any claims. I simply presented information from the media. You guys are the ones claiming things that are not widely media known with zero backup.

I'm the crazy one because I believe WIDELY reported information instead of the guy on the message board that "just knows"

You have no idea, from just watching him play. It's literally everywhere, the guy failed NFL physicals, it's not like I'm making this up. I couldn't possibly, but you sure could.

If you guys KNOW it's not 4, what is it? 3?

Do you remember the guy that KNEW we were trading for Brandon Marshall. UNtil anyone in the planet is willing to report and back up hwat you say right now you sound like him.

Here's a die-hard longhorns fan with a site... saying he expects Kindle to have his fifth knee surgery soon. Why do you have more credibility then him? http://www.hookemreport.com/tag/nfl-draft/

If it's common knowledge in that area, why doesn't he know?

[Jeremiah W]

I didn't make any claims. I simply presented information from the media. You guys are the ones claiming things that are not widely media known with zero backup.

I'm the crazy one because I believe WIDELY reported information instead of the guy on the message board that "just knows"

You have no idea, from just watching him play. It's literally everywhere, the guy failed NFL physicals, it's not like I'm making this up. I couldn't possibly, but you sure could.

If you guys KNOW it's not 4, what is it? 3?

He did not fail the Ravens phsyical. He may have issues that hurt his draft stock, but this was a very deep draft and he was pretty close to other comparable players like Jerry Hughes and other DL prospects like Odrick, Price and Cody. In a normal draft year, he is a 1st round pick. This past draft was just deep with 1st round type talent. Kindle was not the only high 1st round prospect to free fall. Jimmy Clausen, Taylor Mays, Golden Tate among others. Bruce Campbell would have been a major reach for the Raiders in the 1st round, but I do not think he was expected to be there in the 4th or he would have stayed in school.

[HoustonRaven]

You have no idea, from just watching him play. It's literally everywhere, the guy failed NFL physicals, it's not like I'm making this up. I couldn't possibly, but you sure could.

If you guys KNOW it's not 4, what is it? 3?

Now he failed NFL physicals? Are you sh-tting me? :rolling:

When? With what team? If you google "Sergio Kindle NFL physical" not one article comes up claiming what you just claimed. Nothing even comes close.

Dude, I lurk the politics board so I know you and I agree -- the media will repeat anything and everything, to hell with the truth. You think that dynamic changes just because it's sports?

I am telling you, and not some gut reaction, he didn't have 4 surgeries. He did not have 3 surgeries. That's not from gut. It's not a hunch.

It was never reported before the draft!!!!!! Not once. What does that tell you?

EDIT: Who the Eff is Trey McClain?!?!?!

How about going to the OFFICIAL Longhorn site and do a search .... www.texassports.com

I will give you a hint, you will only find one ... ONE .... surgery on Kindle ... a March 29th, 2009 procedure to repair cartilage in his right knee. You will also find that he dinged up his knee a few times, but only one surgery.

[jonboy79]

Now he failed NFL physicals? Are you sh-tting me? :rolling:

When? With what team? If you google "Sergio Kindle NFL physical" not one article comes up claiming what you just claimed. Nothing even comes close.

Dude, I lurk the politics board so I know you and I agree -- the media will repeat anything and everything, to hell with the truth. You think that dynamic changes just because it's sports?

I am telling you, and not some gut reaction, he didn't have 4 surgeries. He did not have 3 surgeries. That's not from gut. It's not a hunch.

It was never reported before the draft!!!!!! Not once. What does that tell you?

EDIT: Who the Eff is Trey McClain?!?!?!

Who the eff is Houston Raven? That's my point.

As I linked to earlier, by draft night Schefter said that so many teams had taken Kindle OFF THEIR BOARD that he'd be surprised if he were drafted in the second round. NFL teams may buy into rumors to an extent but their doctor's look at players.

If you aren't his doctor, coach, trainer, friend or family member, you don't KNOW, it's a hunch. He could have had surgery in HS, or in the summer and YOU might not know.

Not that their career paths are linked in any way but Dan Cody was a better value and smaller risk then Kindle, that is really all my point has been from the beginning.

[purplepoe]

if yoiu are so "in the know" leak a report... get Kindle to twitter it... come on, ya know, PROVE IT...

Seriously, all the news everywhwere says several, 4, microfracture needed, but YOU KNOW, that his knee is fine so II should believe you? If Aaron or Tony spoke to Kindle and confirmed to me via PM I would buy that.

He dropped to 43 after league-wide physicals... That's proof enough his knee is troublesome.

You have proven NOTHING.

Show me where it was reported that he had the surgeries at the time they supposedly happened.

Here's a hint. You will find NOTHING. Don't you think a top player at a top school having surgery would be front page news?

Your point about Marshall proves MY point. Someone reported it and then all of a sudden it's on 10 websites.

It happens all the time.

A local example is the Orioles manager search. Someone reported Showalter would be in uniform the Friday after the AS break. Them boom all of a sudden it's everywhere on the net.

It wasn't close to being true.

I have no reason to lie jonboy. I really don't.

I also have nothing against you as I think you are one of the more knowledgeable posters on this board.

However, I do have some knowledge about the Kindle situation and I'm just stating it.

You can choose to think I'm full of it if you'd like.

But I'm telling you that I'm not.

PP

[HoustonRaven]

Who the eff is Houston Raven? That's my point

Someone who knows a hell of a lot more about Longhorn football than you, that's for sure.


As I linked to earlier, by draft night Schefter said that so many teams had taken Kindle OFF THEIR BOARD that he'd be surprised if he were drafted in the second round. NFL teams may buy into rumors to an extent but their doctor's look at players

That's proving OUR point! Thank you! At least you admit it. Now where is this proof that he failed an NFL physical?


If you aren't his doctor, coach, trainer, friend or family member, you don't KNOW, it's a hunch. He could have had surgery in HS, or in the summer and YOU might not know

Now you're suggesting high school damage? You could not back peddle more than if you were on a unicycle.

Here is the one ... ONE surgery .... he has had at UT and it's from their offical site:

http://www.texassports.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/011108aaa.html

[jonboy79]

You have proven NOTHING.

Show me where it was reported that he had the surgeries at the time they supposedly happened.

Here's a hint. You will find NOTHING. Don't you think a top player at a top school having surgery would be front page news?

Your point about Marshall proves MY point. Someone reported it and then all of a sudden it's on 10 websites.

It happens all the time.

A local example is the Orioles manager search. Someone reported Showalter would be in uniform the Friday after the AS break. Them boom all of a sudden it's everywhere on the net.

It wasn't close to being true.

I have no reason to lie jonboy. I really don't.

I also have nothing against you as I think you are one of the more knowledgeable posters on this board.

However, I do have some knowledge about the Kindle situation and I'm just stating it.

You can choose to think I'm full of it if you'd like.

But I'm telling you that I'm not.

PP

At some level... YOu post a lot and don't make these claims often... you are not the random incoming loser with the Brandon Marshall rumor. I'll give you that.

If it is completely rumors, then it sure scared off NFL teams who's doctors examined Kindle... so there is obviously smoke behind the rumors.

Sounds to me more that it is a difference of classification or "opinion" as to what constitutes a surgey. If what you are alluding to is that maybe he had two surgeries, that each had secondary procedures, and that is how the report went wild, that is reasonable. IF yoiu are saying he currently has some minor cartilage issues(as the Ravens DR's see it) then I will buy it.

If you are coming here to tell me that you KNOW that his knee is perfect and he's never had surgery and that the whole media and the rest of the NFL is wrong then I'm sorry I need a lot more to buy it.

I understand that the rumor mill of a media can pass things along, but there isn't anything to show the contrary either. The facts that we have to go by are thqat his knee was a red- flag that scared teams that examined him away from drafting him when he possibly could have been. Rumors or not, teams examined him and passed.

[jonboy79]

That's proving OUR point! Thank you! At least you admit it. Now where is this proof that he failed an NFL physical?

Now you're suggesting high school damage? You could not back peddle more than if you were on a unicycle.

Here is the one ... ONE surgery .... he has had at UT and it's from their offical site:

http://www.texassports.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/011108aaa.html

How does it prove my point? He fell to 43, and as you all say it was a huge fall outta nowhere... as in, teams that should have been interested, PASSED.

How is that backpedaling in any way? IF the kid had surgery a month out of hte womb it counts... my point is that he appears to have a fragile knee, as noted by several early surgeries. That's it. I don't care when he had the surgery.

One they reported. There is this whole confidentiality thing going on with medical records though.

[purplepoe]

At some level... YOu post a lot and don't make these claims often... you are not the random incoming loser with the Brandon Marshall rumor. I'll give you that.

If it is completely rumors, then it sure scared off NFL teams who's doctors examined Kindle... so there is obviously smoke behind the rumors.

Sounds to me more that it is a difference of classification or "opinion" as to what constitutes a surgey. If what you are alluding to is that maybe he had two surgeries, that each had secondary procedures, and that is how the report went wild, that is reasonable. IF yoiu are saying he currently has some minor cartilage issues(as the Ravens DR's see it) then I will buy it.

If you are coming here to tell me that you KNOW that his knee is perfect and he's never had surgery and that the whole media and the rest of the NFL is wrong then I'm sorry I need a lot more to buy it.

I understand that the rumor mill of a media can pass things along, but there isn't anything to show the contrary either. The facts that we have to go by are thqat his knee was a red- flag that scared teams that examined him away from drafting him when he possibly could have been. Rumors or not, teams examined him and passed.

No doubt his knee was an issue and he did have a surgery.

He just didn't have 4.

That's the only thing I've been saying.

I guess I could've clarified it more than I did.

PP

[jonboy79]

No doubt his knee was an issue and he did have a surgery.

He just didn't have 4.

That's the only thing I've been saying.

I guess I could've clarified it more than I did.

PP

You were fairly clear on that. You, were consistant.

What I ask further, and you may or may not know, is;

Is it possibile that the number is a difference of counting? I understand how for example, Tom Brady and Peyton Both had consecutive procedures on the same knee for a single injury. Is it possible that succeedding cleanup procedures are what drives the rumor mill?


The media reports it that his knee is swiss cheese, needs to be repaired now, and will limit his career. Some teams passed on him entirely. The Ravens are "perfectly happy" with the health of his knee. The truth is OBVIOUSLY in the grey area int he middle there, but where is the question. I certainly hope the Ravens public answer is the closest to reality. Indications from camps were that he was at least currently moving around fine.

Isn't it funny that we didn't hear about Kyle Wilson's back until AFTER the draft and AFTER we missed out on him, and then we hear he failed the Ravens Physical and was removed from the board completely. THis is accepted as gospel here.

[NC Raven]

Drafting Kindle involved a certain degree of risk.

The Ravens accepted that risk.

I don't think they're concerned about whether Kindle plays 12 years in the NFL.

Their concern is this year, and given how close the team is to winning it all, his addition makes a lot of sense, given (a) his talent level, and (b) the slot at which they got him.

Will he endure forever? Who knows?

That's why it's called a "Risk". It might turn out great. Or it might not work out. There are no guarantees. You cannot control every variable.

Things could be worse. We could have traded away three draft picks for Tim Tebow! :rolling:

[CRZA938]

I think it's clear his knee is usable at the moment, and that is what the Ravens seem to have been looking at. I will not dispte that, as I am not a docto, as has been thouroughly shown. I just don't like drafting a 22 year so sure to have knee injuries.

I think your opinion here is a fair one, however, as has been my point all along, simply becuase he has had a surgery(s), does not definitively mean that he will not have a long and productive career.



It has been reported amongst my links that he has very little right knee cartilage. I would imagine that most, if not all procedures were to clean that up. I also remember hearing around draft time that of the 4 surgeries, 1 was an infection cleanup much like the 2nd Brady surgery.

That was reported based on the opinion of some doctors, but that opinion wasn't close to a consensus. Let's hope the Ravens Medical staff is better than the contrarian opinions.



I'm hip witht he Arthroscopic suregery stuff guys, I understand that you can pop an ACL and possibly come back next year stronger then ever with little chance of reoccurance, but there is a big difference between that and a YOUNG guy that has had repeated cartilage problems. It has ended careers short here in baltimore before, and it will again.

Yes, that is a possibiltiy for sure, but again, not a certainty.

[jonboy79]

I think your opinion here is a fair one, however, as has been my point all along, simply becuase he has had a surgery(s), does not definitively mean that he will not have a long and productive career.



That was reported based on the opinion of some doctors, but that opinion wasn't close to a consensus. Let's hope the Ravens Medical staff is better than the contrarian opinions.



Yes, that is a possibiltiy for sure, but again, not a certainty.

I don't disagree with really any of this. My point is that the risk is much higher then most would likely to admit, and the tradeoff with the perceived upside is why he was available at 43. It wasn't a huge surprise he was available then.

He is not in any way, shape, or form GUARANTEED of injury, but the likelyhood is VERY high. It is undoubtedly higher then a guy liek Dan Cody, or Adam Terry who had less injury baggage at their draft time. Just because it cut their careers short does NT mean it will do so with Kindle, I'm simply saying that it is likely. Wwe see how easy it is to happen to a healthy kid, it's significantly moreso with a previously damsaged goods.
The ACTUAL "condition and history" of his knee plays a large part of this risk, and yes of course I hope the Ravens doctor's are more right then others, but then again, baltimroe is the home of the 12 week ankle strain or hammy pull, so I'm not sure I'm real confidant.

The draft is all abotu long term investments, especially in the early rounds. On the surface, as reported, this seems a bit mroe short sighted of a selection. Multiple reports listed the microfracture as an either or thing, now or in a few years... No one has definitively coem out and said there is no current damage. I understand plkayers play through injuries like these, for a time being.

I could be wrong here, if the entire media is as well. Again, I hope that I am, and I hope that Poe's insider connections are solid.

What I think is truly funny, is the flip flopping some do around draft time. They have strong opinions pre-draft, but then as soon as the Ravens draft who they draft their opinions change compltely. It was like they never had an opinion to begin with. Why formulate your own opinion if youa re simply going to defer to the greater wisdom of Oz without consideration? It's not like we win the Super Bowl every year... He does fail from time to time, he has had bad drafts(lacking a first round pick).


And to add some positivity, at least they got Boldin. Had Gaither been firesaled, Marshall come in instead of Boldin AND this draft, I might have had to defect....;

[jonboy79]

Drafting Kindle involved a certain degree of risk.

The Ravens accepted that risk.

I don't think they're concerned about whether Kindle plays 12 years in the NFL.

Their concern is this year, and given how close the team is to winning it all, his addition makes a lot of sense, given (a) his talent level, and (b) the slot at which they got him.

Will he endure forever? Who knows?

That's why it's called a "Risk". It might turn out great. Or it might not work out. There are no guarantees. You cannot control every variable.

Things could be worse. We could have traded away three draft picks for Tim Tebow! :rolling:

Exactly, he was a risky pick. Thanks for making my point. Gronkowski was a similarly valued, rated, and risk level as Kindle. I probably would have been happier with Gronkowski, as I think he's a PERFECT TE for this ssytem when healthy, and a complete Gamer that could(if healthy) make us all look back on Todd Heap with mixed reviews. He may be a bit riskier... depending on where the truth lies between the reports.

Denver... well, they have no shortage of upside. Laugh all you want, but Their last two offseasons could POSSIBLY go down with the Cowboys early 90's heyday after the Herschel Walker trade.
Tebow possibly has the highest celining in the entire draft. His floor was probably the lowest in the first round as well, maybe rivaled by BayBay's, their other boom or bust selection from the first round, again with near top of the draft potential. After those two selections however, All denver did was get several of the best values inthe entire draft. 2 corners, 2 OL, Eric Decker... IMO superb value in those 5 picks.

[CRZA938]

I don't disagree with really any of this. My point is that the risk is much higher then most would likely to admit, and the tradeoff with the perceived upside is why he was available at 43. It wasn't a huge surprise he was available then.

I think the Ravens got really good value with all of their picks, but at the end of the day all that really matters is can these guys help the Ravens win. The concerns about his knee absolutely contributed to Kindle's fall, but sometimes there is a group think mentality with the draft and it only takes one team to capitalize on that. Hopefully that team is us this year. We'll see which team doctors were correct over the next few years or so.



The draft is all abotu long term investments, especially in the early rounds. On the surface, as reported, this seems a bit mroe short sighted of a selection. Multiple reports listed the microfracture as an either or thing, now or in a few years... No one has definitively coem out and said there is no current damage. I understand plkayers play through injuries like these, for a time being.

I could be wrong here, if the entire media is as well. Again, I hope that I am, and I hope that Poe's insider connections are solid.


I completely agree that on the surface this pick would appear to be questionable. I'll be honest here, when I was sitting on my couch watching our first selection and Sergio Kindle's name popped up after hearing for two days that there were concerns about his health, I was left scratching my head, but when the Raven's FO described their reasoning and lack of concern, I thought, wow, if they are right, this was a great pick. To this day, I still trust that they are right.



What I think is truly funny, is the flip flopping some do around draft time. They have strong opinions pre-draft, but then as soon as the Ravens draft who they draft their opinions change compltely. It was like they never had an opinion to begin with. Why formulate your own opinion if youa re simply going to defer to the greater wisdom of Oz without consideration? It's not like we win the Super Bowl every year... He does fail from time to time, he has had bad drafts(lacking a first round pick).

Not sure if you are talking about me here or not. I think I was pretty consistent in my liking for the players selected (at least for Cody and the Tight Ends), I didn't really focus on Kindle because I didn't think there was a possibility he would be available for us to select (I wasn't aware of the injury concern at the time).

[jonboy79]

Not sure if you are talking about me here or not. I think I was pretty consistent in my liking for the players selected (at least for Cody and the Tight Ends), I didn't really focus on Kindle because I didn't think there was a possibility he would be available for us to select (I wasn't aware of the injury concern at the time).

absolutely not. I was intentionally speaking in genrakizations. An "as a whole" view or even a "negative, reflection" of myself. My point was that I'm sorry, I didn;t like most of these guys before we drafted them. I don;t think they are the correct fit for this team, and I think there were reasons that our first four selections could have gone in different directions. JUST because Oz drafted tehm doesn't mean I flip-flop my opinion.

Now, if these players come out and PLAY at a high level and help the Ravens win, I'll be happy to be wrong and flip-flop my opinion. I formed my opinion watching them play football, I will re-formulate it that way.

Personally, as early as November I was considering Kindle a second rounder wihtout Orapko drawing the double. He seemed to get washed up in blocks easily early in the year and seemed suspect in coverage. He did a lot of his damage unblocked. He was very versatile and used in many places and from different stances. Late int he process the injury talk sealed the deal. I have looked back into my positing history, and that was NOT one of my redflag's until right before draft time. He also has some pretty serious character concerns we aren't speaking about here.

Cody, to me was a space filler, a very good one at that, but he was way more Goose then Adams. I thought we had a lot of players that filled that role well enough.

Neither TE was really ever asked to block as a collegiate.

Now when I SEE Dickson crush a LBer and move him around the edge, and I SEE Kindle shed that OT to get to the ballcarrier, When Cody pushes the pile into the QB, THEN I will see the genius of Oz in these selections, but as of now I am skeptical these players will make those leaps.

[jonboy79]

I think the Ravens got really good value with all of their picks, but at the end of the day all that really matters is can these guys help the Ravens win. The concerns about his knee absolutely contributed to Kindle's fall, but sometimes there is a group think mentality with the draft and it only takes one team to capitalize on that. Hopefully that team is us this year. We'll see which team doctors were correct over the next few years or so.

).

The groupthink in the NFL is dwarfed by the groupthink on a message board. That is my point with the flip-floppers. It's to the point where the outlier opinion(me) is almost disallowed.

It's not like I'm nearly this hard on all decisions Oz makes or all the players we have. I pick my battles, I see the weaknesses I see. I think the Boldin move was PURE MAGIC. PERFECT PLAYER, PERFECT PRICE(trade and contract).

[baltimore_hokie]

He is not in any way, shape, or form GUARANTEED of injury, but the likelyhood is VERY high. It is undoubtedly higher then a guy liek Dan Cody, or Adam Terry who had less injury baggage at their draft time. Just because it cut their careers short does NT mean it will do so with Kindle, I'm simply saying that it is likely.

So you looked at some MRIs of his knee and noticed something that would VERY LIKELY cause an injury down the road? Where did you go to school? Are knees your specialty?



Exactly, he was a risky pick. Thanks for making my point. Gronkowski was a similarly valued, rated, and risk level as Kindle. I probably would have been happier with Gronkowski, as I think he's a PERFECT TE for this ssytem when healthy, and a complete Gamer that could(if healthy) make us all look back on Todd Heap with mixed reviews. He may be a bit riskier... depending on where the truth lies between the reports.

To say that Kindle and Gronkowski were similarly rated is flat out wrong and asinine, which shouldn't surprise anyone.

Kindle at 21, Gronkowksi at 49 (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft/rankings)

Kindle going at 13 and 21, Gronkowski not even in the conversation (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft10/insider/news/story?id=5059813)

Kindle at 17, Gronkowski not listed (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft10/insider/news/story?id=5086827)

You get the idea. These guys do this for a living. Every single one of them loves the Ravens draft. At some point, groupthink is superseded when such an overwhelming consensus is reached.

Your statement of opinion as fact in this conversation is mind-boggling to me.


The groupthink in the NFL is dwarfed by the groupthink on a message board. That is my point with the flip-floppers. It's to the point where the outlier opinion(me) is almost disallowed.

What you don't seem to get (still) is that your opinion is irrelevant, especially when you have no concrete evidence about anything you're saying. You act like how you feel about this player should take precedent over what Ozzie and Co have done.

You say he has these health risks that will definitely limit his career, but what information do you have? You read a report fourth-hand that says something about a knee issue, but what credibility is that? Why wouldn't I trust the Ravens DOCTORS, who unlike you, have a decent amount of training and experience with this sort of thing? Their jobs are on the line. They do this for a living. You're a guy posting on a message board. See what I'm getting at here?

You have zero credibility to even give an opinion on this subject. You act like somehow you know better than the doctors that are paid to examine the players. Sorry, man, but you're delusional if you think that Googling "Sergio Kindle knee surgery" and finding a beat writer that throws this report out the night before the draft is in any way a credible backing for your argument. The beat writer's credibility is shaky with respect to getting the information second- or third-hand, let alone you.

I get that you wanted the Ravens to draft a corner. I think we all would love to have another young stud in the secondary to pair with Webb. Next year's draft class looks very deep at CB, and I'm sure we will invest in one in the first few rounds. I will never get how a shlub writing on a message board could exaggerate his own importance to the point where he honestly is questioning an NFL franchise (and a damn good one at that) on something like this. But if you makes you feel good or important, go for it.

[Jeremiah W]

Calm down Hokie. Who do you think youy are?:T2::ref::girlfight:rolling:

All that. That was funny, and painfully true, but come on, that is the whole point of a message board. To pretend you do run or at least advise the team as an unpaid outsider scout.

I would like to know who we were supposed to draft instead of Kindle. Cody would have been a good pick at 25 IMO so anywhere in round 2 would have been good. Most of teh guys I saw play enough in college to like were gone before we got Kindle though I do not know who JB is upset we did not get. There was not a worthy CB on the board or higher rated pass rusher. I liked the guy from VT Worilids or whatever but he has health issues as well and did not play as well as Kindle.

[HoustonRaven]

Group think stinks.

Unless it's group think saying Kindle had four surgeries.

Then, of course, it's fact.

[CRZA938]

Cody, to me was a space filler, a very good one at that, but he was way more Goose then Adams. I thought we had a lot of players that filled that role well enough.

I didn't really read up on Cody until after we had drafted him. Prior to that I was under the same impression (still happy to get him late in the second), but after hearing what some of his former coaches had to say about him I got to thinking that after he got into the Ravens program, he coud be more like the latter. A great athlete who if he is motivated to get into better shape (I acknowledge that he has a long way to go), could be a force.



Neither TE was really ever asked to block as a collegiate.

Now when I SEE Dickson crush a LBer and move him around the edge, and I SEE Kindle shed that OT to get to the ballcarrier, When Cody pushes the pile into the QB, THEN I will see the genius of Oz in these selections, but as of now I am skeptical these players will make those leaps.

The only thing I would say here is there are a lot of similarities to a young Todd Heap who wasn't a great blocker either coming out of college, but who has honed his craft to become better than average in that area. Also, I believe each of them had running backs who ran for over 1,000 yards, so that must have some capacity for blocking... Time will tell.

[grayplay]

I just wanted to toss my thought in about Kindle and his health "concerns". If this has been stated already I apologize, I didn't feel like reading through every page.
This could be purple kool aid, but there is the chance that teams passed on Kindle because of that teams track record with players and conditioning programs. The Ravens could view Kindle as a motivated player who wants to get in NFL shape and strengthen the knee up so risk of injury decreases. Other teams may have felt the risk was too great in that it relies on the motivation of the player.
Now if we can just make sure to add escalators at the training facility Kindle will hopefully be injury free. Stairs are a tricky bunch, what with them being so stationary and all.

In grading the draft this early- it's like the season right now. We are undefeated so far, so until they prove otherwise the draft was a booming success.

[jonboy79]

So you looked at some MRIs of his knee and noticed something that would VERY LIKELY cause an injury down the road? Where did you go to school? Are knees your specialty?




To say that Kindle and Gronkowski were similarly rated is flat out wrong and asinine, which shouldn't surprise anyone.

Kindle at 21, Gronkowksi at 49 (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft/rankings)

Kindle going at 13 and 21, Gronkowski not even in the conversation (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft10/insider/news/story?id=5059813)

Kindle at 17, Gronkowski not listed (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft10/insider/news/story?id=5086827)

You get the idea. These guys do this for a living. Every single one of them loves the Ravens draft. At some point, groupthink is superseded when such an overwhelming consensus is reached.

Your statement of opinion as fact in this conversation is mind-boggling to me.



What you don't seem to get (still) is that your opinion is irrelevant, especially when you have no concrete evidence about anything you're saying. You act like how you feel about this player should take precedent over what Ozzie and Co have done.

You say he has these health risks that will definitely limit his career, but what information do you have? You read a report fourth-hand that says something about a knee issue, but what credibility is that? Why wouldn't I trust the Ravens DOCTORS, who unlike you, have a decent amount of training and experience with this sort of thing? Their jobs are on the line. They do this for a living. You're a guy posting on a message board. See what I'm getting at here?

You have zero credibility to even give an opinion on this subject. You act like somehow you know better than the doctors that are paid to examine the players. Sorry, man, but you're delusional if you think that Googling "Sergio Kindle knee surgery" and finding a beat writer that throws this report out the night before the draft is in any way a credible backing for your argument. The beat writer's credibility is shaky with respect to getting the information second- or third-hand, let alone you.

I get that you wanted the Ravens to draft a corner. I think we all would love to have another young stud in the secondary to pair with Webb. Next year's draft class looks very deep at CB, and I'm sure we will invest in one in the first few rounds. I will never get how a shlub writing on a message board could exaggerate his own importance to the point where he honestly is questioning an NFL franchise (and a damn good one at that) on something like this. But if you makes you feel good or important, go for it.



Seriously you are going there again? Didn't we clear this up.... AS REPORTED EVEYWHERE... If he was NOT more likely then why did teams take him off their board.

Gronk missed ALL of last year with injury, take a look at sites that actually watched him play the year before. Injury aside, he would have likely been higher rated then either Pettigrew or Gresham had he been healthy in either of their drafts. By the time of the draft, his "injury gap" closed with Kindle's.

Sure it does take precedent... in my mind. i THINK IT'S pathetic THAT you can spend all fall, winter and spring forming an opinion and then you simply defer with nothing but a draft pick....

Because the Rqvens DOCTORS have no more info then the teams that took him off their board. The truth is somewhere in the middle. I highly doubt that the highly trained DOCTORS that examined him for other teams saw things that didn't exist. They didn't succomb to the press groupthink... Did a Doctor that actually examined him tell the team to take him off the board because he didn't liek his attitude? No because he saw a worrisome knee.

It's not a question whether we will draft a yoiung corner early next year, it's HOW MANY 2 oe 3?

Are you saying no one questioned the coaches when Boller was starting? Seriously poor schlub's EVERYWHERE thought they knew better... This is what a message board is for. We are not all Hokie's that form opinions and then defer to the masses to correct our own opinions. Some of us have conviction in what we saw and defer to reality to counter or confirm that opinion.

Don't act like Oz never had a draft that's highlights were Dwan Edwards and Devard Darling...

[jonboy79]

I didn't really read up on Cody until after we had drafted him. Prior to that I was under the same impression (still happy to get him late in the second), but after hearing what some of his former coaches had to say about him I got to thinking that after he got into the Ravens program, he coud be more like the latter. A great athlete who if he is motivated to get into better shape (I acknowledge that he has a long way to go), could be a force.

The only thing I would say here is there are a lot of similarities to a young Todd Heap who wasn't a great blocker either coming out of college, but who has honed his craft to become better than average in that area. Also, I believe each of them had running backs who ran for over 1,000 yards, so that must have some capacity for blocking... Time will tell.

I saw a LOT of Cody... I believe I watched abotu 10 Bama games last year. He filled space. He was a man amongst boys. Against NFL OL, he will hav ework to do.

Todd Heap is a HIGHLY overrated player. Yes, now that his career is almost over he is finally an above average blocker. He was a MISERABLE blocker for the "prime" of his short career.

Dickson actually showed he could block little guys well downfield. He simply was not used inline to block much AT ALL, I'm not syaing he can't do it, jsut that I haven't seen it. Pitta (smaller viewing sample size) was a motion player more akin to Chris Cooley, who not surprisingly wasn't used to block much either. He seems like he might have the right attitude to become effective.

[jonboy79]

I just wanted to toss my thought in about Kindle and his health "concerns". If this has been stated already I apologize, I didn't feel like reading through every page.
This could be purple kool aid, but there is the chance that teams passed on Kindle because of that teams track record with players and conditioning programs. The Ravens could view Kindle as a motivated player who wants to get in NFL shape and strengthen the knee up so risk of injury decreases. Other teams may have felt the risk was too great in that it relies on the motivation of the player.
Now if we can just make sure to add escalators at the training facility Kindle will hopefully be injury free. Stairs are a tricky bunch, what with them being so stationary and all.

In grading the draft this early- it's like the season right now. We are undefeated so far, so until they prove otherwise the draft was a booming success.

See part of it, is that I have les confidence in the Ravens training staff then "league average" Injuries are often and lingering around here.

BTW, hope Kindle's head feels better quick and that he misses as little camp as possible due to his fall down the stairs.

[jonboy79]

Calm down Hokie. Who do you think youy are?:T2::ref::girlfight:rolling:

All that. That was funny, and painfully true, but come on, that is the whole point of a message board. To pretend you do run or at least advise the team as an unpaid outsider scout.

I would like to know who we were supposed to draft instead of Kindle. Cody would have been a good pick at 25 IMO so anywhere in round 2 would have been good. Most of teh guys I saw play enough in college to like were gone before we got Kindle though I do not know who JB is upset we did not get. There was not a worthy CB on the board or higher rated pass rusher. I liked the guy from VT Worilids or whatever but he has health issues as well and did not play as well as Kindle.


For the record, I have always graded this draft around a C or average...

Word from the castle was that Javier Arenas was their last remaining CB target by 43, and they didn't value him there, so I will start there. Jerome Murphy, Taylor Mays, Carlos Dunlap... would all have been in the running as well, had I been in charge, which I clearly am not.

A big part of the problem, is that the move from 25 to 43 looked great, until we saw who went during those 18 selections... It's not Oz's FAULT that all the best players went before he selected again, but FROM MY PERSPECTIV, we dropped too far. Ultimately, I would have taken a corner at 25, in retrospect.

[Jeremiah W]

For the record, I have always graded this draft around a C or average...

Word from the castle was that Javier Arenas was their last remaining CB target by 43, and they didn't value him there, so I will start there. Jerome Murphy, Taylor Mays, Carlos Dunlap... would all have been in the running as well, had I been in charge, which I clearly am not.

A big part of the problem, is that the move from 25 to 43 looked great, until we saw who went during those 18 selections... It's not Oz's FAULT that all the best players went before he selected again, but FROM MY PERSPECTIV, we dropped too far. Ultimately, I would have taken a corner at 25, in retrospect.

I think the TEs will be huge. Our red zone O has not been nearly as effective without 2 good TEs healthy at the same time.

I think the TE group will be more improved than the WR core and will really open up the O.

[NC Raven]

Ultimately, I would have taken a corner at 25, in retrospect.

You can only pick one. Which one?

[jonboy79]

You can only pick one. Which one?

From what I saw, I would have taken Kyle Wilson. If I were a doctor that saw his back that thought that would hold him back long term(as we were told AFTER the Ravens missed him), then I would have taken McCourty or then Cook.

I think it was pretty obvious that Oz thoguht the DB's remaining on the board at 25 were similar, and that he could get one at 43... when they were all gone before 40, he had some egg on his face. I truly believe that the FO is very much more disappointed in missing on this group of corners then they or the average message board poster would let on to.

[baltimore_hokie]

You can only pick one. Which one?

If Kareem Jackson was still on the board for us, he would have been one of the few players Ozzie may have taken instead of trading back. He may have not even been good enough for Ozzie to pass on picking up the extra picks, but he is tearing camp up with the Texans.

I seriously doubt there will be 24 players that come out of this draft that are better than Terrence Cody alone. If Kindle is a solid contributor, this should be another solid draft.

[littlecat]

In fairness to the Ravens, once they traded back, we knew that all of the true elite players were off the board. After all, there is a huge value drop from 25 to 43.

Sergio Kindle will either be a beast or a bust. I have character concerns with his DUI and texting while driving incident where he ran into a building and left the scene of an accident. Not smart. It's not what intelligent people do. Secondly, I am suspect about knees. Once you have knee problems, you always have knee pain and problems.

Cody can be good if he can drop 50 pounds. I don't like fat football players period. I hope he can learn to collapse the pocket and become the complete player the Ravens need. Even Tony Siragoosa (sp) could tackle a QB. Remember Rich Gannon?

I think Dennis Pitta was a good pick. Not as good as a Gronkowski, but okay. Why didn't we draft Aaron Hernandez? He was rated the third best TE in the draft. Who is this Ed Dickson? Is he a big time player? Overall the Patriots drafted 2 of the best TEs.

Now, this David Reed. Why didn't we pick Riley Cooper from Florida--Tim Tebow's go to man. He reminds me so much of an Austin Collie. This is the type of receiver that Joe Flacco really needs. It puzzles me why we took David Reed when we could have had Cooper. Well, the Eagles picked up Cooper 2 picks after us and we know how well Andy Reid is in the draft.

The rest of the players are projects at best, so I won't comment on it.

Time will tell if this is a good or great draft. Great drafts are based on good scouting and I hope the Ravens draft board is accurate. I just think because of the position they were in with so few picks (5) that they moved back and had to take more risk than they normally do in a draft. By the way, New England has already accmulated 2 first round and 2 second round picks for next year. Bill Belichick certainly knows his way around the draft board, doesn't he?
I agree with you to some content

www.america-jerseys.com

[baltimore_hokie]

Fabian passed his physical and has been taken off the PUP list.

Good news.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Todd-Heap-placed-on-nonfootball-illness-list.html

[jonboy79]

Fabian passed his physical and has been taken off the PUP list.

Good news.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Todd-Heap-placed-on-nonfootball-illness-list.html

Not sure why it is in this thread, but that is fantastic news. I hope he gets anywhere near 100% before he season begins. If he could at least play nickel to start the season it would be a serious boon.