Concern over corners overblown

[TL24x7]

Back on January 21 I blogged (http://ravens24x7.blogspot.com/2010/01/ravens-secondary-is-not-primary-concern.html)that the Ravens had other concerns besides the secondary that require more immediate attention – specifically the passing game and the pass rush.

Before the bye last season, the Ravens secondary was shredded by some top flight quarterbacks and they gave up six plays of 40+ yards. After the break, they yielded just 2 during their remaining11 games. Tom Brady did next to nothing against the Ravens in the playoffs and Peyton Manning wasn’t the reason the team didn’t advance further in the playoffs. The blame for that rests on the shoulders of the offense.

So the team made the move to get Anquan Boldin; they’ve added Donte Stallworth and re-signed Derrick Mason; and now in the draft they’ve added two promising tight ends and a Brandon Stokley-like receiver in David Reed.

Many will argue that the best way to help the secondary is to improve the pass rush. The additions of Sergio Kindle and Terrence Cody help in that regard. Now most will tell you that Cody is a two down guy and does little to help a pass rush. But given his ample girth and ability to push offensive linemen around, his interior thrust coupled with Haloti Ngata should help collapse the pocket and make it easier for Kindle, a re-committed Terrell Suggs and the developing Paul Kruger to make a difference on the edges.

Folks forget that after the bye last season, Greg Mattison’s troops were the second best pass defense in the league. Chris Carr played much better and even the beleaguered Frank Walker played better. Walker will never be a starting corner in the league but he does bring toughness and tenacity to the nickel and/or dime position.

Might they all benefit from an improved pass rush?

Might they all be more comfortable in Mattison’s system?

Critics are quick to point out that the team has injuries at corner (Lardarius Webb & Fabian Washington) and it’s possible that neither will be at full strength to start the season. But let’s not forget that both were out down the stretch last season. Both were spectators in Oakland, New England and Indianapolis.

Both should be available early in the season.

MORE HERE (http://ravens24x7.blogspot.com/2010/04/concerns-about-ravens-secondary-are.html)

[Jeremiah W]

Good stuff TL.

I always argue that good rush is more important than good coverage. Bad coverage will get you beat faster than bad pass rushing, but good coverage can not cover up for bad pass rush the same way a good rush can cover up average coverage.

We did get by well without Webb and Washington, and they will be back by week 6 at the latest most likley, but maybe during camp.

Reed and Suggs missed a lot of time. JJ had a shoulder injury that stopped a hot start as a pass rusher. Kruger should improve and Kindle should upgrade all the back up edge rushers.

I do not see Cody playing on passing downs, but he can improve the pass D by forcing longer 3rd downs by stuffing the run.

[PigtownHusker]

I might be the only person in the state that likes Walker. He is like one of Hanson brothers from "Slapshot". Total goon. No idea what the play or defensive scheme is....but does his best to knock somebody's head off..or if the ball is about to be caught TOTALLY abuse the WR. He just has no clue....love it.

[CRZA938]

Amen TL!!! The influx of youth and talent along our front 7 will not only improve our coverage due to the increased pass rush, but will also shore up a run defense that struggled at times last year.

The addition of Dickson and Pitta might play a bigger role this year then if we would have drafted impact WR's.

I give Ozzie and Co. a lot for credit for consistently applying their method for bulding a team. The season hasn't started yet, so there is still time to add depth along our back end.

[RavenScallywag]

I might be the only person in the state that likes Walker. He is like one of Hanson brothers from "Slapshot". Total goon. No idea what the play or defensive scheme is....but does his best to knock somebody's head off..or if the ball is about to be caught TOTALLY abuse the WR. He just has no clue....love it.

Walker was signed to be a ST player. He's very good at tackling, but because he isn't fast, he has to rely on physical battles to try to keep a WR from beating him deep. The refs are watching him probably closer than anyone. I think Harbs likes his character and his ST ability, but I can't see why they still like him as a CB.

[Endzone 84]

Not mention our secondary was a top of the league the second half of the season. The same people out there crying we need a corner, are the same people who were crying last year about getting rid of Harbaugh. Our team is fine, if all they want to do is complain, then they can watch the Raiders.

[Neelson88]

I might be the only person in the state that likes Walker. He is like one of Hanson brothers from "Slapshot". Total goon. No idea what the play or defensive scheme is....but does his best to knock somebody's head off..or if the ball is about to be caught TOTALLY abuse the WR. He just has no clue....love it.

I completely agree... i like his attitude and physicality and i don't think we would be able to find a better #4/#5 corner (don't get me started on Corey Ivy). Walker knows our system and as long as he isn't going up against an elite WR, he does just fine (San Diego game vs. Naane or even in the playoffs against the Pats).

[PigtownHusker]

I completely agree... i like his attitude and physicality and i don't think we would be able to find a better #4/#5 corner (don't get me started on Corey Ivy). Walker knows our system and as long as he isn't going up against an elite WR, he does just fine (San Diego game vs. Naane or even in the playoffs against the Pats).

Yep...if he was one of our top two or three (which I guess he is now with the injuries) I wouldn't be happy. But the dude comes in and lays waste to WRs, and of course the yellow flags. ;)

[BmoreBrawla]

people seem to be drinking a little too much purple kool aid. last year, everyone knew that we needed a big time WR, we didn't get one, and we suffered because of it. Our DB's were truly horrible for most of the year last year, and we have done nothing to address it. We don't have a real #1 corner or even a decent #2. We might have the worst secondary in the division. I haven't looked at Cleveland's but I wouldnt be surprised if they are better.

[darb72]

And two of those CBs that played so well last year are coming off of major injuries. Not to mention Walker is still allowed to actually play back there which is just never a good idea.

We need some depth, pretty badly.

[jonboy79]

And two of those CBs that played so well last year are coming off of major injuries. Not to mention Walker is still allowed to actually play back there which is just never a good idea.

We need some depth, pretty badly.

Really.. We need a number one. The whole depth chart looks better if they move down a notch.... It's been an issue since Cmac and Rolle and will be for at least one more year.

[StingerNLG]

Dont forget Dominique Foxworth vastly improved as the season went on last year. I still say once he changed his cleats and stopped slipping on the turf his game turned almost 180. So I'm not so worried there.

We'll have people cover the other side until Fabian and/or Ladarius Webb is ready to come back.

I think the CB situation has been a bit overblown.

[AirFlacco]

With the front 7 we now have, we won't need any CBs not with 6 guys blocking just Ngata and Cody while Suggs and Kindle breeze by everyone else and Ray blitzing up the middle. Some just don't understand that.

Our CBs will be back there drinking a cool one while watching the show.


:happyanim

[Ravenswarrior19]

Really.. We need a number one. The whole depth chart looks better if they move down a notch.... It's been an issue since Cmac and Rolle and will be for at least one more year.

Yep, us and about 25 other teams.

To me, our biggest failing with CBs was not grabbing Jabari Greer last year when he was floating around.

[psuasskicker]

You guys understand that there's only one dude named Revis and one named Asomugha, right? Dominant, shut-down corners don't grow on trees. Even good ones are hard to find.

We've got five solid ones for their given depth. We don't particularly need more unless we find out that both that suffered season-ending injuries last year will miss significant time this season. Significant > 6 games.

Oh, and early projections are they won't miss six.

- C -

[Dont Know]

Oh, and early projections are they won't miss six.

I think Harbaugh is BSing us fans in this regard. We know for a fact that he doesn't mind lying to the fans about injury statuses from his first pre season here as a coach if it's in the interest of the team.

Add that there is nothing to be gained by admitting a need for corner and I just can't see him telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Nobody is going to be able to call his bluff until tc opens anyway at the earliest.

To me, there is just too much negotiation leverage to be lost. There is a huge difference calling teams or agents saying you are interested in an upgrade of your 5th string CB Walker/Ivey compared to calling admitting that you are looking for healthy bodies because you cannot even field 4 CBs and your season is about to go down the drain before it's even started.

[RavenScallywag]

Even if you believe that everything Harbaugh tells you is a lie, do you really think Ozzie would let the situation get so bad to where we are just hoping a good vet gets cut and decides to come here? Trust me, if they knew that the injuries were so bad to where the chance of them being available by Day 1 was completely zero, Ozzie would've made his move already. Yeah, maybe both won't be 100% by Day 1, and we'll need a guy as a stop gap for a few weeks. But I can't see Ozzie identifying we need someone for most of the season and then saying "well, I'll see what we get through the draft, and then play the vet market by ear".

[psuraven]

The problem is that the first mini camp starts in the next week or two. You can't go into mini camp with only 2 NFL quality corners healthy (Foxworth and Carr). They either need to make a committment to Walker now and/or hold an open try out with guys like Harper, Smoot, Lucas, Bly, Townsend and James (or whoever) and may the best man win...similar to how they picked up Kelly Washington last year which turned out pretty well. I'd like to see them do both...add Walker and pick up another guy. At this point, they need to add at least one guy and then maybe they wait until training camp to pick up another guy depending upon how Washington and Webb are coming along and how they feel about Gerard and Williams based on their mini camp performances. If they only have 2 NFL quality corners at mini camp, they're wasting everybodies time.

[jonboy79]

Yep, us and about 25 other teams.

To me, our biggest failing with CBs was not grabbing Jabari Greer last year when he was floating around.

Did any of the other 24 NOT draft a corner? About 40 corners were drafted, we may have been the only team not to draft one. Heck even NYJ, certainly one of the "7" drafted a first rounder because they realized they need 3 starters.

[Ravenswarrior19]

Did any of the other 24 NOT draft a corner? About 40 corners were drafted, we may have been the only team not to draft one. Heck even NYJ, certainly one of the "7" drafted a first rounder because they realized they need 3 starters.

I guess my point is, once we made the decision to trade out at 25, we weren't getting anything near a #1 CB anyway. Chances are, there wasn't a true shutdown corner anywhere in the draft.

In the later rounds, Oz made the decision to go with the TEs, etc. instead of a developmental corner.

We will likely need to add CB depth before the start of the season. I'd rather that depth be vets with NFL experience than some hopeful rookie. I'm waiting to see us sign a Fred Smoot or Dre Bly type in the event that Fabian and Webb can't go week 1.

According to Fabe's twitter, he is able to run although not at full speed yet.

If we had taken the best corner on our board instead of David Reed and Art Jones in Rd 5, would we feel any better about our situation? I surely wouldn't.


Newsome reminded reporters that there are still four months till Training Camp and that the Ravens’ roster is “fluid.” In essence, the Ravens will be looking at free agency options.

“We’ll find a way to add a corner,” Harbaugh said. “We’ve got guys who can play. Two guys are getting healthier, and I’m real excited about what we’re going to do in the secondary. We’ll be fine.”
Along with a list of available free agents http://www.baltimoreravens.com/News/Articles/2010/04/Top_FA_Cornerbacks_on_the_Market.aspx

[RavenScallywag]

Off that list...

Don't touch Will Allen for the DUI (I believe in 2nd chances, but combine ACL injury and that, not something we need), Pass on Nick Harper because of the injury, pass on Smoot because he doesn't play the run well...

I'd be ok with Dre Bly or Ken Lucas, but I think I'd probably most want to see William James. He won't be a gamebreaker, but looks like he should be a solid addition that would upgrade over Frank Walker and maybe Chris Carr.

[psuasskicker]

Heck even NYJ, certainly one of the "7" drafted a first rounder because they realized they need 3 starters.

No, they drafted one because Crommartie is a giant question-mark, and Revis has only three more years before he will be able to demand a $100MM contract.

And we have three starters. Say we draft someone in the first round like Wilson. Eight weeks into the season we've got Foxworth, Wilson, Webb, Washington and Carr; and you're whining about how our pass rush sucks and Suggs is worthless. How is that anything but a giant bucket of Fail?

- C -

[Stealthbirds80]

I'm pretty sure we will make an addition before August when it matters, but the last two SB winners had average cornerbacks (one elite safety) and a superior pass rush. Sound familiar? The concern is overblown.

[jonboy79]

I guess my point is, once we made the decision to trade out at 25, we weren't getting anything near a #1 CB anyway. Chances are, there wasn't a true shutdown corner anywhere in the draft.

In the later rounds, Oz made the decision to go with the TEs, etc. instead of a developmental corner.

We will likely need to add CB depth before the start of the season. I'd rather that depth be vets with NFL experience than some hopeful rookie. I'm waiting to see us sign a Fred Smoot or Dre Bly type in the event that Fabian and Webb can't go week 1.

According to Fabe's twitter, he is able to run although not at full speed yet.

If we had taken the best corner on our board instead of David Reed and Art Jones in Rd 5, would we feel any better about our situation? I surely wouldn't.


Along with a list of available free agents http://www.baltimoreravens.com/News/Articles/2010/04/Top_FA_Cornerbacks_on_the_Market.aspx

"True Shutdown Corner" or not, but 4 CB's all of us talked about went between 25 and 43... We should have traded back up for 1. Starting caliber corners are almost exclusively found in the first 50 or so selctions of the draft.

Yes we will probably add a Vet that has lost a step to start the season. He is likely to resemble Frank Walker when on the field.

No I wouldn't have felt much better had we drafted a CB after the mid rounds when Franks, Owusu-Ansah and Parrish Cox went. They were the last of the corners that I estimated to have the talent to come in and help in the short run.

Washington is gone after this year and we will be in this same spot or worse next year, unless we trade for a youngish guy soon.

[jonboy79]

No, they drafted one because Crommartie is a giant question-mark, and Revis has only three more years before he will be able to demand a $100MM contract.

And we have three starters. Say we draft someone in the first round like Wilson. Eight weeks into the season we've got Foxworth, Wilson, Webb, Washington and Carr; and you're whining about how our pass rush sucks and Suggs is worthless. How is that anything but a giant bucket of Fail?

- C -

No certianly not... That would be a great depth chart. It would allow Carr and Webb to fill return and defensive roles. 3 corners play half the snaps and a fourth on at least another quarter... We CONSTANLTNLY have injuries in the secondary like most teams so that depth chart would be shifted around quite a lot during the year, again once all are even healthy to begin with.

I know for sure I wouldn't have been crying abotu the run defense had we not drafted a house.

[psuasskicker]

Starting caliber corners are almost exclusively found in the first 50 or so selctions of the draft.

That's just not true. Using PFR's Career Approximate Value metric as at least a starting point, and looking at almost 300 DBs drafted from '03 to '09, 11 of the top 20 DBs were drafted after #50 overall. 8 of those 12 were taken after #100 overall. Using INTs as the metric, 10 of the top 20 are after #50, 6 of those after #100 overall. Of the 13 DBs that have gone to the Pro Bowl from the '03 - '09 draft class, 5 were drafted after #50, 3 after #100.

Webb - who many believe will be a very good corner - was taken #88 overall.


No certianly not... That would be a great depth chart. It would allow Carr and Webb to fill return and defensive roles. 3 corners play half the snaps and a fourth on at least another quarter... We CONSTANLTNLY have injuries in the secondary like most teams so that depth chart would be shifted around quite a lot during the year, again once all are even healthy to begin with.

I know for sure I wouldn't have been crying abotu the run defense had we not drafted a house.

There's such a thing as too much depth. Assuming Webb develops into the player he looks like he will become, we have three starting caliber corners on this team and one very good backup with one currently unknown but thought to be a solid option for nickle or maybe dime. To bring in a 4th starter is overkill, particularly when other areas of the defense are getting very old. When you look and see that Suggs is our only legitimate pass rushing threat, Pryce is super-old, and no one else on the roster can even be considered viable right now; combine that with the fact that we have four viable corners when healthy, all of whom are young; it makes no sense to panic, give up picks to move up and take a corner that obviously we didn't have rated high on our board simply to fill the position cause two of those guys might not play the first couple games this season. THAT would have been a poor draft move.

- C -

[jonboy79]

There's such a thing as too much depth. Assuming Webb develops into the player he looks like he will become, we have three starting caliber corners on this team and one very good backup with one currently unknown but thought to be a solid option for nickle or maybe dime. To bring in a 4th starter is overkill, particularly when other areas of the defense are getting very old. When you look and see that Suggs is our only legitimate pass rushing threat, Pryce is super-old, and no one else on the roster can even be considered viable right now; combine that with the fact that we have four viable corners when healthy, all of whom are young; it makes no sense to panic, give up picks to move up and take a corner that obviously we didn't have rated high on our board simply to fill the position cause two of those guys might not play the first couple games this season. THAT would have been a poor draft move.

- C -

You should build a team to have three healthy starting corners on day 1. AT BEST we will have two. Fabian was a borderline starter/nickle before his injury... we BELIEVE that we saw enough in about 6 games from Webb to think he could be a starter...
There will be injuries again, there always are.

It'sa gaffe, it's ok you can admit. He's not God, he's a very good GM. One of hte best. But he is not infallable.

[psuasskicker]

It's only a gaffe if you actually believe that we only have "AT BEST" two starting quality corners if everyone's healthy. The only reason our DB-field when healthy wouldn't be considered top two unquestionably in the NFL is because of Landry. The only teams that wouldn't trade their entire secondary for ours is the Jets and probably the Saints, Packers and maybe even the Bills. There is no team that has as deep a set of corners as we do except maybe the Jets and Saints...maybe. Both of those teams have secondaries that look far better than they are due to their defensive schemes.

Corner wasn't a big need for us unless you know of a major injury to someone that the rest of us don't know about, or you're playing for the first six games of the year. Fortunately I think Ozzie's more in the know than you, and is playing for the long term.

- C -

[jonboy79]

It's only a gaffe if you actually believe that we only have "AT BEST" two starting quality corners if everyone's healthy. The only reason our DB-field when healthy wouldn't be considered top two unquestionably in the NFL is because of Landry. The only teams that wouldn't trade their entire secondary for ours is the Jets and probably the Saints, Packers and maybe even the Bills. There is no team that has as deep a set of corners as we do except maybe the Jets and Saints...maybe. Both of those teams have secondaries that look far better than they are due to their defensive schemes.

Corner wasn't a big need for us unless you know of a major injury to someone that the rest of us don't know about, or you're playing for the first six games of the year. Fortunately I think Ozzie's more in the know than you, and is playing for the long term.

- C -

No, I simply think it's almost impossible for both guys to be healthy all year. As a matter of fact, I'd say the over/under on games played between them is under 20.. And Washington is gone next year.
The bengals have MUCH better corners. GB has better corners. MIA has better corners. Besides the Jets thpse are the "unquestionables" I cna think of.

I know two of our top three options at the position are coming off major knee surgeries. I know they aren't the injuries they were 30 years ago, but it's not a high ankle sprain either...


the other think we keep saying is IF HEALTHY.... well THEY AREN'T.

[Dragz]

Guys, seriously, the topic REALLY is true. YES, we need healthy corners. YES, Fabian and Webb are question marks right now. NO, we don't know when they'll be ready, BUT OZZIE DOES! I'm pretty sure that we didn't draft a corner because we're already young at the position and we have our future starters on our roster (Washington maybe, Webb and Foxworth). My guess is that we'll add a veteran and aside from that, maybe retain Frank Walker OR get a young UDFA for depth. By the way, just because we don't have a glut of corners, doesn't mean we lack DBs. Haruki and Zbikowski can come in and cover in passing situations too. It'll be ok, I promise...

[jonboy79]

Guys, seriously, the topic REALLY is true. YES, we need healthy corners. YES, Fabian and Webb are question marks right now. NO, we don't know when they'll be ready, BUT OZZIE DOES! I'm pretty sure that we didn't draft a corner because we're already young at the position and we have our future starters on our roster (Washington maybe, Webb and Foxworth). My guess is that we'll add a veteran and aside from that, maybe retain Frank Walker OR get a young UDFA for depth. By the way, just because we don't have a glut of corners, doesn't mean we lack DBs. Haruki and Zbikowski can come in and cover in passing situations too. It'll be ok, I promise...


Washington will be an UFA at the end of this year....

[elland]

No, I simply think it's almost impossible for both guys to be healthy all year. As a matter of fact, I'd say the over/under on games played between them is under 20.. And Washington is gone next year.
The bengals have MUCH better corners. GB has better corners. MIA has better corners. Besides the Jets thpse are the "unquestionables" I cna think of.

I know two of our top three options at the position are coming off major knee surgeries. I know they aren't the injuries they were 30 years ago, but it's not a high ankle sprain either...


the other think we keep saying is IF HEALTHY.... well THEY AREN'T.

Makes a lot of sense except, then why did Oz and the FO, (who has a HC with DB experience.. and one of the best DB coaches in Pagano) not respond this obvious need, and instead target Kindle and Cody.. both positions which was not just as obvious?

So my guess.. They do like our CBs better than all those clever draft experts, and they have this simple advantage, they should know more about the health of Fabian and Webb. And as a fan I need to give them credit, our DBs was not the reason why we lost in the second half of the season and not the reason why we lost against Peyton.

And the DB stats from last season and especially after the bye, do tell another story, our secondary stats were not worse than Bengals and much better than Phins.

I do believe we will sign another CB, however it will be a 4-5 CB like well Frank Walker, it migth even be him.

[Benny8444]

I have to agree here,

The Ravens do not NEED a Shut Down CB because they have enough playmakers on defense and above average CBs who can cover with a decent pass rush.

By upgrading the pass rush they helped the CBs out greatly.

Any top CB cant cover forever the WR will eventually get open and the QB will find him.

We already have 1 superstar in the secondary and that is all we need.

You need shut down CBs when you dont have a good safety who can bail a CB out or a good pass rush.

[NC Raven]

Did any of the other 24 NOT draft a corner? About 40 corners were drafted, we may have been the only team not to draft one. Heck even NYJ, certainly one of the "7" drafted a first rounder because they realized they need 3 starters.

Other people jump off cliffs, too. Doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do.

[Dragz]

Washington will be an UFA at the end of this year....

Yes, he will be. My answer to that, is that if the FO believes that Fabian can give us value, they'll try to resign him. Lets say Fabian leaves; Webb progresses and there we have our two starters. With one "young" corner gone (Washington), that opens up the possibility of drafting a rook to eventually replace one of the starters or to come in and be a new nickel or dimeback. The way it is now tho, I have NO problem with Washington, Foxworth, Webb and Carr as our corners. All we're lacking is CB depth but we have good DBs that can cover (Zibs and Ruki).

[jonboy79]

Makes a lot of sense except, then why did Oz and the FO, (who has a HC with DB experience.. and one of the best DB coaches in Pagano) not respond this obvious need, and instead target Kindle and Cody.. both positions which was not just as obvious?

So my guess.. They do like our CBs better than all those clever draft experts, and they have this simple advantage, they should know more about the health of Fabian and Webb. And as a fan I need to give them credit, our DBs was not the reason why we lost in the second half of the season and not the reason why we lost against Peyton.

And the DB stats from last season and especially after the bye, do tell another story, our secondary stats were not worse than Bengals and much better than Phins.

I do believe we will sign another CB, however it will be a 4-5 CB like well Frank Walker, it migth even be him.

Or... BPA burned them badly...

Look you can think they are fine all you want. I certainly have the right to think they effed up badly this time, and it will burn us not only this year, but at least next year as well.
You need 3 starters in this league at corner, right now we have one, with two more players that are borderline when healthy. Webb has shown the potential to be a legitimate starter, but also excelled as a returner, and you can't really do both.

IF we add only a Frank Walker liek guy we will have a lot of track meets to watch this year.

[jonboy79]

Yes, he will be. My answer to that, is that if the FO believes that Fabian can give us value, they'll try to resign him. Lets say Fabian leaves; Webb progresses and there we have our two starters. With one "young" corner gone (Washington), that opens up the possibility of drafting a rook to eventually replace one of the starters or to come in and be a new nickel or dimeback. The way it is now tho, I have NO problem with Washington, Foxworth, Webb and Carr as our corners. All we're lacking is CB depth but we have good DBs that can cover (Zibs and Ruki).

If he plays at all likea starter, he will get $40m. He will go elsewhere, or he will disappoint greatly and have a chance at coming back. There isn't much middle ground.


And to the other above post, sure people jump off cliffs... into water it's fun.

But the funny thing is, you are the lemming here listening to what they want you to hear and thinking what they want. I'm the only person here not taking the FO for geniuses here... I think they effed up.... we will see who is right.

[trailhiker85]

IF we add only a Frank Walker liek guy we will have a lot of track meets to watch this year.

More like track meets half the time (when Walker gets burned) and wrestling matches the other half (when Walker gets burned AND grabs his receiver while the ball's still in the air).

Sorry, it's been weeks since I've done a Frank Walker dig and just couldn't hold back any longer.

That said, maybe we should all just keep in mind that the season is a long way off yet. Look, I have my concerns about CB also. But is there really any need to panic about this? I'm not saying the FO is comprised of infallible genuises, but I still have to believe they have a better handle on the situation than a run-of-the-mill fan such as myself. If the seconday hasn't been addressed to the extent many fans would have liked, other positions have been. Progress has been made on the roster over all.

Yes, the unknown can be scary. And the unknowns start with the intermediate & long term injury status of Washington & Webb. But a lot can happen between now and September. Maybe even some good things. It's possible that come the season opener, we may just find out the sky isn't falling after all...

[jonboy79]

More like track meets half the time (when Walker gets burned) and wrestling matches the other half (when Walker gets burned AND grabs his receiver while the ball's still in the air).

Sorry, it's been weeks since I've done a Frank Walker dig and just couldn't hold back any longer.

That said, maybe we should all just keep in mind that the season is a long way off yet. Look, I have my concerns about CB also. But is there really any need to panic about this? I'm not saying the FO is comprised of infallible genuises, but I still have to believe they have a better handle on the situation than a run-of-the-mill fan such as myself. If the seconday hasn't been addressed to the extent many fans would have liked, other positions have been. Progress has been made on the roster over all.

Yes, the unknown can be scary. And the unknowns start with the intermediate & long term injury status of Washington & Webb. But a lot can happen between now and September. Maybe even some good things. It's possible that come the season opener, we may just find out the sky isn't falling after all...

Panic? No, but I can certainly say that they screwed up their best shot to get an all important starter at an all important position(cb). The draft, and specifically the first couple of rounds is where you find starting corners. We need one, we didn't get one. That's all I'm saying, is that unless we get REALLY LUCKY health wise, this is going to be one of the areas we get beat most, jsut like the last few years. THis won't change until we draft a guy that will compete with Foxworth at the top of the depth chart.

Honestly I'm saying they "effed" up the draft and THEY know it too. They jsut can't tell u sthat, and everyone is buying the company line that we "will be ok"... It will be a big weakness this year, worry. Unless we make a BIG trade, we aren't going to get a good enough player to change that.

[Jeremiah W]

If he plays at all likea starter, he will get $40m. He will go elsewhere, or he will disappoint greatly and have a chance at coming back. There isn't much middle ground.


And to the other above post, sure people jump off cliffs... into water it's fun.

But the funny thing is, you are the lemming here listening to what they want you to hear and thinking what they want. I'm the only person here not taking the FO for geniuses here... I think they effed up.... we will see who is right.

I get your opinion of the CB situation, but I do not get how you came to that conclusion already.

You do not know the medical outlook, or have any sort of proof or indication that Webb or Washington will not be available.

Last year the Jets had a "shut down" CB but I would take the every other starter and top reserve of the Ravens over what they had. They had the Rex blitz scheme working while we basically had a rookie DC getting used to calling plays in the NFL. By the end of the year we had about the same stats, and did much better vs Indy in the playoffs, on D anyway.

Foxworth had a very bad start, but a very strong finish. He was who he they thought he was when they put him on the books.

Washington is a starting level CB in the NFL. He is a vet who has played pretty well here. Reports are he is running and working out and on schedule for camp.

Webb looks like he has starter ability, maybe he is PUP list and out of the mix for the first 6 weeks, but should be a better depth CB than most teams have.

Carr also started the season off very soft, tenative and suspect. By the end of the year, he was where he was supposed to be pretty much every time. He has the skill to be an above average nickle or dime back. He is an upgrade over Ivy, and less penalty prone than Frank Walker.

Frank Walker has started a lot of games for us. He stinks in the preseason, struggles in the start of the season, but settles in and plays good football down the stretch. He is by far the most physical Cb we have. He is a very willing and able tackler and special team specialist. If he has to cover a #2 WR, we may be in trouble, but he won most of his 1 on 1 matchups vs #3 WRs and slot TE types. There are a lot of good teams with worse 4th Cbs.

Indy got by last year with rookies and reserves at CB. The Steeler CBs are suspect, went almost all year with no INTs and were burned weekly without Troy over the top. Cincy has the same Cbs they have had for the last couple years. They are only as good as the pass rush. When they could not get to Flacco even with the blitz, Mark Clayton and Derrick Mason burned them consistantly. When Odom and the D started getting pressure with a 4 and 5 man rush, they started shutting teams down and making as many plays as they were giving up.

Look at the guys we had playing in 2006. Rolle and C Mac were solid vet Cbs, but were in the last year of that status, and got burned plenty of times even that year. Ivy was the nickle. Oglesby, Pittman, I do not even know who else may have been in the mix, but we were not #1 in the NFL on D because we had shut down Cbs. We shut down the run without loading the box and we got pressure on the QB with 4 or 5 coming from unbalanced and creative formations and schemes with all kinds of coverages behind them. Rex confused and pressured QBs into throwing it into coverage a lot, and our DBs were able to make a ton of plays, or the pressure got the Qb on the ground, sometimes both. Where that D broke down was when Pryce got hurt and the CBs were off the street XFL and UFL type guys liuke Gaston or Prude.

Elite QBs with complete passing games were not really stopped by Rex and his scheme anyway. Peyton and Brady always seemed to know where to go to beat the blitz, and it has been a while since we had a 4 man rush that was above average. If the DL reshuffle does lead to better front 4 pressure, and I think Redding and Kruger along with a fresher Nagta will do that, the back 4 will have a lot less to worry about and less routes to cover.

[baltimore_hokie]

THis won't change until we draft a guy that will compete with Foxworth at the top of the depth chart.

Uhhh...Webb??? You are really getting delusional with this whole CB issue.




Honestly I'm saying they "effed" up the draft and THEY know it too.

OK, yeah. You are right and EVERY NFL analyst that listed the Ravens among the top 3 drafts in the NFL is wayyyyy off base. Your list of Seattle, Oakland, and Denver as the top drafts is much more reasonable than the Ravens doing well. Pardon me while I laugh uncontrollably at you.

[jonboy79]

Uhhh...Webb??? You are really getting delusional with this whole CB issue.




OK, yeah. You are right and EVERY NFL analyst that listed the Ravens among the top 3 drafts in the NFL is wayyyyy off base. Your list of Seattle, Oakland, and Denver as the top drafts is much more reasonable than the Ravens doing well. Pardon me while I laugh uncontrollably at you.

Webb played 5 or 6 reasonable games as a nickel/starter and then tore his knee. Who know's what we have there. Initially he was thoguth to have a ceiling of a nickel. he surpassed that. We will have to see.


I didin't list them as top drafts, simply examples of looking around the league and seeing similar or better value. Obviously SF and Seattle are the big winners, but they had a lot of picks. I also said that there were few drafts I wouldn't trade for, but again, we didn't have many picks.

Everyone was sucking on Oz's D like they always do... the whole draft analysis is groupthink.... One person likes it, everyone likes it. Few know the Ravens needs well at all.

Laugh all you want.

[trailhiker85]

It will be a big weakness this year, worry.

Is it all right if I DON'T worry? Or at least minimize my worrying? I mean, there are other things going on in my life right now despite my participation in these boards. I really don't think this whole CB issue is worth giving yourself an ulcer.

Let's keep things in perspective. Let's say for a moment you're right. Let's say that every decent opposing QB shreds our secondary this year, we go 8-8, and fans lament this year's draft after the fact. We'll all be disappointed, but the world will keep turning. You, at least, will have the joy of being able to gloat at us.

On the other hand, what if something else happens instead? What if our secondary coverage actually turns out to be adequate? Lots of things can happen, both good and bad. Maybe Ozzie will even make a trade for that No. 1 corner you so covet (I doubt any would be available at a price Oz would ante up, but as long as we're dealing with the hypothetical, what the heck).

Point is, whether you loved the results or not, no draft is ever going to be perfect. The Jets may have taken Kyle Wilson, but their draft certainly wasn't perfect. Who knows if Wilson will even pan out?

Cheer up. Just be glad our draft and FA decisions aren't being made by individuals like Vinny Cerrato and Dan Snyder.

[Jeremiah W]

Webb played 5 or 6 reasonable games as a nickel/starter and then tore his knee. Who know's what we have there. Initially he was thoguth to have a ceiling of a nickel. he surpassed that. We will have to see.


I didin't list them as top drafts, simply examples of looking around the league and seeing similar or better value. Obviously SF and Seattle are the big winners, but they had a lot of picks. I also said that there were few drafts I wouldn't trade for, but again, we didn't have many picks.

Everyone was sucking on Oz's D like they always do... the whole draft analysis is groupthink.... One person likes it, everyone likes it. Few know the Ravens needs well at all.

Laugh all you want.

That still does not explain how you came to your take on the CBs or the draft. You do not like it. OK. Why?

Oz has the rep he has because of a record. Most experts give him a solid grade every year, that looks even better as time goes by.

The CBs are a weak link and will get us beat theory has no stats or solid argument behind it. When we were talking WRs last year we could say, we are 20 something in passing (even though the run game was working). This year we were low ranked in sacks, but after week 6 the big plays against us stopped happnening. The coverage tightend up even with Washington and Webb getting hurt. Reed getting hurt, Suggs going from out of shape to injured, JJ hurting his shoulder after a hot start. Nagta had an ankle or something slowing him. Bannan and Edwards can not rush the Qb. Kruger was not ready. Barnes was not strong enough vs the run. Pryce led the team in sacks despite playing mostly just on 3rd downs.

CB play is one thing you have to go to the stats for. How many big plays and TD passes did they allow compared to teh rest of the NFL. Every CB is going to get burned. I have seen Asomogha and Champ get lit up by SD and Indy or NE. We played a lot of top ranked pass attacks last year, more than the Jets did and finished right behind them in ppg and yardage. Sure it could get better than Frank Walker and Ivy as the 5th and 6th CB, but that is what camp is for, and we will see what we have when cut downs come.

The FO already fixed the other major roster issues. If they have not made a move at CB, there must be a good reason. It is a pretty big stretch to say they EFFED up by not addressing it? Based on what?

[jonboy79]

That still does not explain how you came to your take on the CBs or the draft. You do not like it. OK. Why?

Oz has the rep he has because of a record. Most experts give him a solid grade every year, that looks even better as time goes by.

The CBs are a weak link and will get us beat theory has no stats or solid argument behind it. When we were talking WRs last year we could say, we are 20 something in passing (even though the run game was working). This year we were low ranked in sacks, but after week 6 the big plays against us stopped happnening. The coverage tightend up even with Washington and Webb getting hurt. Reed getting hurt, Suggs going from out of shape to injured, JJ hurting his shoulder after a hot start. Nagta had an ankle or something slowing him. Bannan and Edwards can not rush the Qb. Kruger was not ready. Barnes was not strong enough vs the run. Pryce led the team in sacks despite playing mostly just on 3rd downs.

CB play is one thing you have to go to the stats for. How many big plays and TD passes did they allow compared to teh rest of the NFL. Every CB is going to get burned. I have seen Asomogha and Champ get lit up by SD and Indy or NE. We played a lot of top ranked pass attacks last year, more than the Jets did and finished right behind them in ppg and yardage. Sure it could get better than Frank Walker and Ivy as the 5th and 6th CB, but that is what camp is for, and we will see what we have when cut downs come.

The FO already fixed the other major roster issues. If they have not made a move at CB, there must be a good reason. It is a pretty big stretch to say they EFFED up by not addressing it? Based on what?

For one, they led the league in PI and yards from PI... no one thinks of that.
FOr two, we have 3 CB's currently of NFLish quality... Foxy Carr and Cary Williams... until one of the W twins is out there in pads, he don't count.

[Jeremiah W]

For one, they led the league in PI and yards from PI... no one thinks of that.
FOr two, we have 3 CB's currently of NFLish quality... Foxy Carr and Cary Williams... until one of the W twins is out there in pads, he don't count.

That is what OTAs and camp is for though. We will find out if we need more bodies at CB or not before it is too late. Even during year there should be servicable P squad types available, but there are plenty of options available to answer what is much more of a question mark than it is a hole or need. We have players, we just do not know how they will play yet.

The PI stat is legit, but I think that was as much rep as reality, and the bottom line is the PPG and wins not the yardage.

[NeverMissedAGame]

It's frustrating to me that people get so hyped up about our team that they don't pay attention to the nuances of the game.

The statistics DO NOT tell the true story of our team last year. Statistically we benefited immensely from playing several anemic offenses. Our BIGGEST front office mistakes were self-deluding about the quality of our secondary and pass rush. Our run defense was still top notch (albeit with a few games off) and the run defense allowed us to maintain an above-average defense overall, but our secondary cost us multiple games and ALMOST cost us several others.

People, just because we love the Ravens with all our hearts and souls does not mean that we should ignore reality. And just because we trust in Ozzie's wisdom, does not mean that he doesn't make bad judgment mistakes sometimes. With Webb and Washington completely healthy, we MIGHT be able to make up for our undersized, under-skilled secondary IF WE BLITZED MORE THAN TWICE PER HALF. Mattison's base defense left a lot to be desired last year and anybody that watched every game should remember that. The end-of-season statistics are misleading.

We have the exact same personnel at the beginning of this season as we did last season MINUS a healthy Webb and Washington. Even if we added a free agent, at this point, we're not going to get any upgrades at the position. The veterans that get cut are cut for a reason - because they're deemed unworthy of decent contracts. So even if we sign the most seasoned veteran available, it will still only add depth instead of improve quality. Foxworth was a miscalculated talent given too big of an investment that it will cost us too much money to cut him, but he is not a quality starting #1. Below is a list of receivers that can handily beat him this year on our schedule. Anytime any one of these offenses recognizes us in Man coverage, they will throw to these receivers because we have no CB's on our roster that can handle them.

Ochocinco
Antonio Bryant
Randy Moss (if he shows up to play that day)
Lee Evans
Brandon Marshall
Steve Smith
Andre Johnson
Marques Colston

[Jeremiah W]

It's frustrating to me that people get so hyped up about our team that they don't pay attention to the nuances of the game.

The statistics DO NOT tell the true story of our team last year. Statistically we benefited immensely from playing several anemic offenses. Our BIGGEST front office mistakes were self-deluding about the quality of our secondary and pass rush. Our run defense was still top notch (albeit with a few games off) and the run defense allowed us to maintain an above-average defense overall, but our secondary cost us multiple games and ALMOST cost us several others.

People, just because we love the Ravens with all our hearts and souls does not mean that we should ignore reality. And just because we trust in Ozzie's wisdom, does not mean that he doesn't make bad judgment mistakes sometimes. With Webb and Washington completely healthy, we MIGHT be able to make up for our undersized, under-skilled secondary IF WE BLITZED MORE THAN TWICE PER HALF. Mattison's base defense left a lot to be desired last year and anybody that watched every game should remember that. The end-of-season statistics are misleading.

We have the exact same personnel at the beginning of this season as we did last season MINUS a healthy Webb and Washington. Even if we added a free agent, at this point, we're not going to get any upgrades at the position. The veterans that get cut are cut for a reason - because they're deemed unworthy of decent contracts. So even if we sign the most seasoned veteran available, it will still only add depth instead of improve quality. Foxworth was a miscalculated talent given too big of an investment that it will cost us too much money to cut him, but he is not a quality starting #1. Below is a list of receivers that can handily beat him this year on our schedule. Anytime any one of these offenses recognizes us in Man coverage, they will throw to these receivers because we have no CB's on our roster that can handle them.

Ochocinco
Antonio Bryant
Randy Moss (if he shows up to play that day)
Lee Evans
Brandon Marshall
Steve Smith
Andre Johnson
Marques Colston

After week 6 the Ravens only allowed 2 big pass plays.

The D was #3 in the NFL.

They went to NE and shut the Pats down before going to Indy 6 days later and holding them to 20.

The D is not what it used to be, but the NFL is not what it used to be. 10 QBs threw for 4,000 yards. The Ravens led the NFL in penalty yards differential. Many of the games all the calls seemed to go against them, but the overall outcome was better than all but 2 teams in the NFL. Scoring is up.

There is not the exact same personel here either. The upgrades on O could totally change the type of situations the D is in. The changes on the D line will affect the secondary. There are a lot of differences on the roster, and most likley less top rated pass attacks on the schedule this year. Either way if the O plays like they should, we will not need the D to hold teams under 20 to win.

[NeverMissedAGame]

After week 6 the Ravens only allowed 2 big pass plays.

The D was #3 in the NFL.

The D is not what it used to be, but the NFL is not what it used to be. 10 QBs threw for 4,000 yards. The Ravens led the NFL in penalty yards differential. Many of the games all the calls seemed to go against them, but the overall outcome was better than all but 2 teams in the NFL. Scoring is up.

There is not the exact same personel here either. The upgrades on O could totally change the type of situations the D is in. The changes on the D line will affect the secondary. There are a lot of differences on the roster, and most likley less top rated pass attacks on the schedule this year. Either way if the O plays like they should, we will not need the D to hold teams under 20 to win.


Again, citing the final season stats is very misleading because we significantly benefited from playing a few anemic offenses - Cleveland, Denver, Detroit, Chicago, and Oakland.

We also didn't exactly improve the Defensive Line. Last year, we were in the bottom half of the league in sacks. This year, we added Redding, Kindle, and Cody. Redding will be a serviceable replacement for Dwan Edwards, but if he plays like he played last year in Seattle, he won't be an upgrade at all. Kindle is so aggressive and over-eager that he was practically useless against the run in Texas. Unless we can change this, he will only be useful on guaranteed passing downs (almost exclusively 3rd downs). While 3rd downs are important, that leaves us with 1st and 2nd downs for teams to face the identical pass rush we had last year. Cody just doesn't have the quickness to be effective in the pass rush. He has the size and strength to be a great run-stopper, but he had very few sacks at Alabama because he's just not quick enough. Therefore, the only upgrade we got to our pass rush will be on 3rd downs when Kindle is in. AND THAT'S IF HE TURNS OUT TO BE A SOLID NFL PLAYER WHICH ISN'T GUARANTEED FOR A 2ND ROUND PICK. After Kruger last year, there's not guarantee that Kindle will produce this year.

As far as having an offense that stays on the field longer and therefore helps our defense? Ok, that will hopefully happen this year. But let me ask you something? Do you love the tough-as-nails attitude that has been our singular team identity since Ray brought our Defense to prominence? I love it. And I don't want to lose it. I think it's really important to us as a fan base because it embodies the reality of our city. I understand that the Baltimore Colts of mythological lore had a dominant passing offense, but it was a different city then. I'm not saying that I don't want a great offense to compliment our Defense. But I will feel very weird being a DIEHARD Ravens fan if we lose that team identity of "grind for every inch" on Defense. It makes me feel connected to the team via the parallel attitude of coming from where I come from. I pray that we don't lose that.

[NC Raven]

If this was baseball and you had the most money of everyone, you could sign a Hall of Fame caliber player at every position, and have nothing but All Stars on the bench.

I believe that is what some of the commenters in this thread are suggesting the Ravens do.

Sorry guys, we can't also go out and sign Larry Fitgerald, Calvin Johnson, Peyton Manning, Namdi Asomugah, and Darrell Revis, AND keep our first round draft pick, AND improve the O-line, AND improve the pass rush, AND obtain replacements for the aging vets, AND have future Hall of Famers waiting in the wings in case somebody goes down with an injury. Doesn't work that way. This isn't Madden, and it's not a 2-team fantasy football league.

[NeverMissedAGame]

If this was baseball and you had the most money of everyone, you could sign a Hall of Fame caliber player at every position, and have nothing but All Stars on the bench.

I believe that is what some of the commenters in this thread are suggesting the Ravens do.

Sorry guys, we can't also go out and sign Larry Fitgerald, Calvin Johnson, Peyton Manning, Namdi Asomugah, and Darrell Revis, AND keep our first round draft pick, AND improve the O-line, AND improve the pass rush, AND obtain replacements for the aging vets, AND have future Hall of Famers waiting in the wings in case somebody goes down with an injury. Doesn't work that way. This isn't Madden, and it's not a 2-team fantasy football league.

Well, I completely agree that we can't have it all. However: it is an uncapped year and we are the 4th most profitable franchise in the NFL thanks to our amazing, faithful, diehard fan base.

Also, we COULD cut a couple veterans unworthy of their contracts on our team and use the money to sign a strong CB. Then we can use younger "cheaper" players for depth at whatever position we cut. That is a known tactic for improving quality at a position. We could also TRADE from either future draft picks or positions at which we're currently deep.

[jonboy79]

If this was baseball and you had the most money of everyone, you could sign a Hall of Fame caliber player at every position, and have nothing but All Stars on the bench.

I believe that is what some of the commenters in this thread are suggesting the Ravens do.

Sorry guys, we can't also go out and sign Larry Fitgerald, Calvin Johnson, Peyton Manning, Namdi Asomugah, and Darrell Revis, AND keep our first round draft pick, AND improve the O-line, AND improve the pass rush, AND obtain replacements for the aging vets, AND have future Hall of Famers waiting in the wings in case somebody goes down with an injury. Doesn't work that way. This isn't Madden, and it's not a 2-team fantasy football league.

Don't disagree. My point is jsut that CB isn't a place you skimp, or shortcut with. There are plenty of more reasonable places to skimp that are FLUSH with talent here.

[Dragz]

Jonboy, I'm sorry. You might be right about our corners, I just saw Fabian and he's looking outta shape!! http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7199 :rolling:

[Jeremiah W]

Again, citing the final season stats is very misleading because we significantly benefited from playing a few anemic offenses - Cleveland, Denver, Detroit, Chicago, and Oakland.

We also didn't exactly improve the Defensive Line. Last year, we were in the bottom half of the league in sacks. This year, we added Redding, Kindle, and Cody. Redding will be a serviceable replacement for Dwan Edwards, but if he plays like he played last year in Seattle, he won't be an upgrade at all. Kindle is so aggressive and over-eager that he was practically useless against the run in Texas. Unless we can change this, he will only be useful on guaranteed passing downs (almost exclusively 3rd downs). While 3rd downs are important, that leaves us with 1st and 2nd downs for teams to face the identical pass rush we had last year. Cody just doesn't have the quickness to be effective in the pass rush. He has the size and strength to be a great run-stopper, but he had very few sacks at Alabama because he's just not quick enough. Therefore, the only upgrade we got to our pass rush will be on 3rd downs when Kindle is in. AND THAT'S IF HE TURNS OUT TO BE A SOLID NFL PLAYER WHICH ISN'T GUARANTEED FOR A 2ND ROUND PICK. After Kruger last year, there's not guarantee that Kindle will produce this year.

As far as having an offense that stays on the field longer and therefore helps our defense? Ok, that will hopefully happen this year. But let me ask you something? Do you love the tough-as-nails attitude that has been our singular team identity since Ray brought our Defense to prominence? I love it. And I don't want to lose it. I think it's really important to us as a fan base because it embodies the reality of our city. I understand that the Baltimore Colts of mythological lore had a dominant passing offense, but it was a different city then. I'm not saying that I don't want a great offense to compliment our Defense. But I will feel very weird being a DIEHARD Ravens fan if we lose that team identity of "grind for every inch" on Defense. It makes me feel connected to the team via the parallel attitude of coming from where I come from. I pray that we don't lose that.

I feel you. If it was up to me, we would have signed Peppers instead of Redding, but I am hoping and do think he will return to form on this D.

Dwan Edwards was not a scrub or anything, but he has 2 sacks in the NFL after all theese years. Redding shuld upgrade him as a pass rusher even in a bad year.

Suggs does not nomally stink like he did last year. I think he will be a lot better than he was last year even if he is not better than he was before that.

Kruger offered next to nothing last year as a pass rusher, if he can just eat up some snaps, he he should help improve the rush overall.

Barnes is still a promising talent off the edge.

Kindle is a better prospect.

Burgess, McClain, Gooden and Ellerbe are in the mix, one or two of them could improve this year enough to be a rotaion guy on passing downs.

As long as we have fresh and talented pass rushers, and decent CBs who do not have to worry about the run, I can nt see the Ravens taking a step back on D from last year. And the last 2 years have been disapointing from a defensive perspective. They were good, better than most of the NFL, but they could have, and maybe should have been better.

The first 2 picks were on D, and thy brought in a DL player with better pass rush than run stopping skills. Art Jones could also be a pretty effective 3rd down DT.

There is no doubt a better rush would improve the coverage, we will just have to see if it really is as improved as it needs to be. None of the Cbs are shut down types, but as long as they are all solid, the D should be spectacular again.

The O should not only be able to keep the ball a little better this year, they should be able to get more quick scores and fast starts. When they have done that recently the D usually shuts the door and the rout is on, but when we let the other team get a lead or hang around, the 4th Q pass rush and coverage have broken down a little too often.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Again, citing the final season stats is very misleading because we significantly benefited from playing a few anemic offenses - Cleveland, Denver, Detroit, Chicago, and Oakland.


You are absolutely right. I mean no other teams played those 4 teams right? I mean we were the only team that played 5 bad offenses!

The rest of your argument is classic overreaction. I like how you already know that Redding and Kindle suck. Maybe I should just not watch any of the games?

[NeverMissedAGame]

You are absolutely right. I mean no other teams played those 4 teams right? I mean we were the only team that played 5 bad offenses!

The rest of your argument is classic overreaction. I like how you already know that Redding and Kindle suck. Maybe I should just not watch any of the games?

If you really want to breakdown arguments, take a look at how you're trying to distort what I've been saying. You are trying to make it a black and white discussion. I never said or implied that either Redding or Kindle suck. I just described what both Texas and NFL coaches have noticed about Kindle and how inconsistent Redding was last year in Seattle. Even though I'm no longer in Baltimore, it's still in my blood so I check out every incoming Raven each year, which is why I looked up Seattle Times articles about the Seahawks D-Line.

I'm a high school football coach and I actually have players at Texas and several in the SEC. I therefore watched all but one Texas game this past season and saw several Alabama games. Even the Texas coaches notably kept Kindle off the field during 1st downs and short 2nd down situations. He is very quick and aggressive, but has a hard time stopping and changing direction to react to run plays. Cody was NEVER on the field during passing downs because he was so winded from running downs. They got several 12 men on the field penalties actually because he was so slow to run off the field. It happened at least three times that I saw and twice in the same game.

If you want to ridicule people with sensationalist "all or nothing" arguments, you can find someone else that likes it. I'm just on here to share my passion for my hometown team and discuss thoughts with other fans. If you actually want to talk football go ahead and tell me why you think Kindle or Redding will be more than what I described them as on the field. Sure, there's a chance that Clarence Brooks could teach Kindle how to play with a little more maturity, but usually college players don't take leaps and bounds in their first year. Even Ray Rice didn't. So please give me a logical argument with respectably high Ravens football IQ to tell me how our Defense has gotten better so far this off-season.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

If you really want to breakdown arguments, take a look at how you're trying to distort what I've been saying. You are trying to make it a black and white discussion. I never said or implied that either Redding or Kindle suck. I just described what both Texas and NFL coaches have noticed about Kindle and how inconsistent Redding was last year in Seattle. Even though I'm no longer in Baltimore, it's still in my blood so I check out every incoming Raven each year, which is why I looked up Seattle Times articles about the Seahawks D-Line.

I'm a high school football coach and I actually have players at Texas and several in the SEC. I therefore watched all but one Texas game this past season and saw several Alabama games. Even the Texas coaches notably kept Kindle off the field during 1st downs and short 2nd down situations. He is very quick and aggressive, but has a hard time stopping and changing direction to react to run plays. Cody was NEVER on the field during passing downs because he was so winded from running downs. They got several 12 men on the field penalties actually because he was so slow to run off the field. It happened at least three times that I saw and twice in the same game.

If you want to ridicule people with sensationalist "all or nothing" arguments, you can find someone else that likes it. I'm just on here to share my passion for my hometown team and discuss thoughts with other fans. If you actually want to talk football go ahead and tell me why you think Kindle or Redding will be more than what I described them as on the field. Sure, there's a chance that Clarence Brooks could teach Kindle how to play with a little more maturity, but usually college players don't take leaps and bounds in their first year. Even Ray Rice didn't. So please give me a logical argument with respectably high Ravens football IQ to tell me how our Defense has gotten better so far this off-season.

I think adding someone who has had 16 sacks, 18 QB pressures and 34 tackles for loss in 2 years is quite an addition to this defense. I've seen Kindle at least 7 times, and every time I was more than impressed. I think Redding is a good low risk move...if the guy can get motivated, he was at one point the highest paid DT in the game. That was only like 2-3 years ago. I'd bet that he is closer to that Redding than the one last year in Seattle. I also think getting a guy who can spell/take over for a 33 year old NT coming in year 2 of serious knee surgery is an excellent move.

If you want to nitpick, you can nitpick every corner in this draft...Haden is small and played the CB spot where he got help from the sideline, Wilson failed his physical, McCourty had like 2 INT's his entire career, Robinson is very talented but also very inconsistant, and Cook is strictly a cover 2 corner.

This was a pretty lame year for CB's. Watch out for next year though...

[NC Raven]

You are absolutely right. I mean no other teams played those 4 teams right? I mean we were the only team that played 5 bad offenses!

The rest of your argument is classic overreaction. I like how you already know that Redding and Kindle suck. Maybe I should just not watch any of the games?

Yeah, really. Our D pulverized those weak offenses. A weak defense wouldn't have done that. Plus, every year there's bad teams on everybody's schedule. The key is being able to beat them, which the Ravens did.

And if they're going to argue that the stats were skewed because of those bad teams, then they have to recognize that our defensive stats were also hurt by playing at Minnesota, at San Diego, at New England, at Green Bay..... to finish as high as we did with that schedule, with a new coordinator, and the injuries in the secondary, and the well documented PI problems, and ... Frank Walker..... damn man, what are people complaining about again? 3rd in yards, 3rd in points allowed, 5th against the rush, and tied for 8th in passing yards (with all those injuries and Frank Walker playing all those snaps).

I'm just not seeing the problem. No team in the NFL is going to be as good as it could possibly be with multiple starters on one side of the ball out with injury.