Bills reportedly want Jared Gaither

[Marcel#52]

The draft has come and gone, but the rumors surrounding Ravens tackle Jared Gaither aren't over yet.

ESPN's Adam Schefter reports that Gaither is still likely to be dealt before the season, and the Bills are the most likely team to get him. "They want him," Schefter writes.

Jamison Hensley of the Baltimore Sun is hearing the same rumors. We're a little surprised Baltimore is so willing to let Gaither go, but there have been reports that they aren't happy with his attitude.

What would they give us? Draft Picks? A corner.. a RT? Let the debate begin...

[Raveninwoodlawn]

What would they give us? Draft Picks? A corner.. a RT? Let the debate begin...

Would have to be a corner.

[chicagoravensfan]

I certainly wouldn't mind banking some of their draft picks for next year. They should be top 10 or top 5.

[myfavoriteboxer]

That's what I've heard about the Bills, that they have a good secondary and crappy everything else.

So, I guess we don't think he works out enough, but why exactly is dropping Gaither a good idea? Our OL isn't the greatest as it is. I'd think we'd need to get good value out of him, or perhaps it's because we want some trade value since we have no plans to resign him. Any insights?

[Jeremiah W]

I would need Jason Peters type comp. 1st, 3rd and maybe throw in a back up CB.

I still do not like it and hope it is only agent game. He has not signed his tender so he would have to work out terms of a contract, most likley they already did but did not go the offer sheet route. The Ravens would have to agree to the compensation then he has to sign his tender and then let them finish the deal. I am not sure the Bills want him bad enough to give up what he is worth to the Ravens this year. They were not willing to give us the #9 pick and sign him to an offer sheet, but maybe they drafted Spiller for us in the first place and Oz is just waiting for Gaither to sign his tender so he can complete the deal. Who knows, but Scheffter is almost always wrong and it makes less sense to deal him now than it did before the draft.

[myfavoriteboxer]

I certainly wouldn't mind banking some of their draft picks for next year. They should be top 10 or top 5.

This is a great point. I think they're guaranteed top 5. They're really dreadful.

[BArellano]

We're not going to pay him and Oher starting left tackle money. And between the 2, Gaither is the odd man out. So the question is do we keep him for this year and let him walk in 2011, or get what we can get for him now. I say get what we can get now. In that case, does Yanda step in at RT?

[elland]

Why on earth would the Bills give their first round pick away, sure if he was the missing link, and he is not with so many obvious needs.

McKelvin and a draftpick 3-4 round?

Btw Ravens without Gaither is not going to the playoffs.

[Jeremiah W]

I do not think Oz was lying when he said no teams had called asking for Gaither.

Kevin Byrne said he is pretty sure that his agent is behind all the trade rumours and while Oz may be willing to deal him, is not looking to or willing to give him away or anything.

Still he has to sign his tender before he even can be traded and I sort of doubt he would be at the ota if he did not want to be here next year. He does not have to be since he is not under contract and if he wanted to force a trade I do not think showing up would be the tactic.

[chicagoravensfan]

why exactly is dropping Gaither a good idea? Our OL isn't the greatest as it is. I'd think we'd need to get good value out of him, or perhaps it's because we want some trade value since we have no plans to resign him. Any insights?

I don't think the Ravens plan on ever signing Gaither to a long term deal because Oher is the long-run LT and they don't want to have to pay LT money to two guys. I think if they don't get a really good trade offer they'd keep him for this year, since they do have a legit shot at the Super Bowl, and then either franchise him or let him go in free agency next year.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

We're not going to pay him and Oher starting left tackle money. And between the 2, Gaither is the odd man out. So the question is do we keep him for this year and let him walk in 2011, or get what we can get for him now. I say get what we can get now. In that case, does Yanda step in at RT?

That is not the only issue.

Let me ask you this.

Would you give up a shot at the Super Bowl for a draft pick in the following years draft. A pick that likely won't even be a first?

Also, depending on the CBA, you may not even be letting him go for nothing if the compensation picks formula is back.

[BArellano]

That is not the only issue.

Let me ask you this.

Would you give up a shot at the Super Bowl for a draft pick in the following years draft. A pick that likely won't even be a first?

Also, depending on the CBA, you may not even be letting him go for nothing if the compensation picks formula is back.

Yea, that's a good point. It's just too soon to say which is the better decision. Giving him up doesn't necessarily mean giving up a shot at the Superbowl. And keeping him doesn't guarantee anything either. I think Oher takes over at LT and doesn't miss a beat. The worry is what happens at RT.

[effo5231]

Oher is in all likelyhood this team's LT of the future and it is likely to be a very bright future.

If we can convince Gaither to play RT this offseason, the switch will happen then.

Ha... called it 6 months in advance.

[chicagoravensfan]

Would you give up a shot at the Super Bowl for a draft pick in the following years draft. A pick that likely won't even be a first?


That situation gives the Ravens a lot of leverage -- if they get a great offer go ahead and it, if not he'll still be a valuable part of this year's SB run.

[purplepoe]

That is not the only issue.

Let me ask you this.

Would you give up a shot at the Super Bowl for a draft pick in the following years draft. A pick that likely won't even be a first?

Also, depending on the CBA, you may not even be letting him go for nothing if the compensation picks formula is back.

Which leads back to what has been obvious for awhile now.

Gaither's work ethic or lackthereof is killing not only his value to this team but his value around the league.

People (not you) scoffed at the notion that it was a big deal and brushed it aside as rumor etc...

I talked about the exact thing you brought up when someone said we might not get anything in return next year if he walks. My point was that is true but we also might have a ring. I think everyone would take a ring and no compensation for Gaither after the season.

I still think the FO would rather try to light a fire under Gaither and get a good year out of him and let him walk than trade him and create a hole at RT.

Obviously they don't have the luxury of getting a pick for this years draft. It would've made alot more sense to see a draft day deal for Buffalo's 2nd round pick and then have the Ravens spend it on a RT.

PP

[TL24x7]

The vibe during practice today was extremely upbeat and borderline electifying at the end of practice. There's a buzz in the air that I haven't seen since I started covering the team.

As for Gaither, I've been told that the Bills have been interested in him since the time of the draft but the offer was substandard. Now, the Ravens can clearly demand more because the draft has come and gone and if this deal is to happen (and I think it's a long shot) the Bills will have to be willing to offer something Ozzie can't refuse.

The move of Gaither to right tackle is a smart one for the Ravens if they want to keep both tackles. They have an above average LT in Oher with a bullet pointing upward who is economical and playing 4 more seasons under a rookie contract. Then if they can get away with paying Gaither right tackle money even if for a couple seasons, they win and develop their franchise LT for the future.

Side note...Oher looks to be in outstanding shape...Gaither is sporting a pouch in the front that wasn't anywhere near as noticeable last season. And no, it wasn't a hand warmer...

[Brtnder81]

We're not going to pay him and Oher starting left tackle money. And between the 2, Gaither is the odd man out. So the question is do we keep him for this year and let him walk in 2011, or get what we can get for him now. I say get what we can get now. In that case, does Yanda step in at RT?

I am tired of hearing this you cant pay 2 players LT money arguement. Oher is under contract for 4 more seasons so he is no where near a new contract by the time he would be up for a new contract we would know if we have an elite tackle in Gaither or if its time to move on.

As for Yanda moving to RT this will not happen. Yanda is a much better guard than tackle. probably pro bowl calibur and isnt strong enough to play RT unless in an emergency that why he didnt move to RT at the end of the season when Oher had to move to LT we played Cousins

[TL24x7]

I am tired of hearing this you cant pay 2 players LT money arguement.

Then you must like Dan Snyder's old approach to managing the cap.

Keep in mind there are other players that are going to require new lucrative contracts who I think are better long-term Ravens than Gaither and more important given the presence of Oher...namely: Ngata, Rice and this guy named Flacco.

[Jeremiah W]

Then you must like Dan Snyder's old approach to managing the cap.

Keep in mind there are other players that are going to require new lucrative contracts who I think are better long-term Ravens than Gaither and more important given the presence of Oher...namely: Ngata, Rice and this guy named Flacco.

I do not buy the money argument either Tony, Reed, Ray and a lot of big money players will come off the books before Oher, Flacco and Rice are up.

Gaither's agent wants more than the Ravens have to pay so there is a lot of talk but unless there is a new CBA with no franchise tag there is no reason to over pay or give him away to a team willing to pay him but not give up a lot in trade.

What can they get for Gaither and how valuable is he? How much of his rep is leverage vs reality? He has 28 starts at LT and is 24. It does not add up even if we have a replacement. Why would his value go down from what it is? The Ravens should at least get a current draft pick or multiple players.

[AirFlacco]

I do not think Oz was lying when he said no teams had called asking for Gaither.

Kevin Byrne said he is pretty sure that his agent is behind all the trade rumours and while Oz may be willing to deal him, is not looking to or willing to give him away or anything.


This sounds about right because Dallas and Skins both needed OTs.

Skins took the best one in the draft but Jones took DEZ when he
should have offered his 1st pick for Gaither.

Romeo won't even have the time to hit DEZ.

There was another rumor somewhere that Oz was going to start
Oneil Cousins as RT if Gaither left.

[camdenyard]

Keep in mind there are other players that are going to require new lucrative contracts who I think are better long-term Ravens than Gaither and more important given the presence of Oher...namely: Ngata, Rice and this guy named Flacco.

Wondering...if they are working on Ngata's extension NOW...now's the time. Give him a big first year contract leaving very managable salaries in years 2011 and going forward.

[CRZA938]

There was another rumor somewhere that Oz was going to start
Oneil Cousins as RT if Gaither left.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RavenFreek]

This sounds about right because Dallas and Skins both needed OTs.

Skins took the best one in the draft but Jones took DEZ when he
should have offered his 1st pick for Gaither.

Romeo won't even have the time to hit DEZ.

There was another rumor somewhere that Oz was going to start
Oneil Cousins as RT if Gaither left.

They could always sign JaMarcus Russell to play RT!:rolling:

[CRZA938]

Wondering...if they are working on Ngata's extension NOW...now's the time. Give him a big first year contract leaving very managable salaries in years 2011 and going forward.

I don't remember where I read it (could of been here for all I know), but this scenario isn't likely due to the restrictions of the uncapped year. Ngata's big deal will have to wait until the CBA is back in place.

[CRZA938]

Would you give up a shot at the Super Bowl for a draft pick in the following years draft. A pick that likely won't even be a first?



All of this would depend on what the return would be, but to answer your first question, I would say yes. You can disagree with me, but I believe it's all about winning multiple championships, and being competetive year after year. So I am fine giving up talent for one year if you can parlay that into future talent for years to come (there are no guarantees that we win a championship if we keep Gaither).

So let's say you're incorrect in your assesment of Gaither's value and this was a top 5 pick in next year's draft. Does that change your opinion?

To be honest, I am really on the fence on this one. On one hand, you have an immensely talented (and young) left tackle, with whom you are clearly better this year, but on the other hand you have a guy who has had his work ethic and commitment questioned by the organization and may or may not already have 2 stikes against him in regards to the League's substance abuse policy for which you could get significant compensation.

Right now, unless the Bills or some other team blow the Ravens away with their offer, I would lean toward keeping him.

[psuasskicker]

You people are out of your minds if you think the Bills are going to dish their 1st rounder next year for Gaither. Why in TF would they do that now when they seemingly wouldn't offer a 2nd rounder for us in THIS year's draft???

At this point I'm not sure there's anything I'd really want for Gaither cause I don't see an adequate replacement for him. Before the draft at least we could draft his replacement.

However, I will say that if we do trade him now, it's an extremely strong statement of what the team thinks about:
a) his value as a player (particularly vs. the backups they have), and/or
b) his contract demands (whatever they are).

I have trouble seeing him playing here next year. Clearly - as many of us predicted - they're moving him to RT. He won't want to be paid as a RT, and so I make the odds pretty high of him looking to get more from another team as a LT than from us as a RT.

- C -

[elland]

You people are out of your minds if you think the Bills are going to dish their 1st rounder next year for Gaither. Why in TF would they do that now when they seemingly wouldn't offer a 2nd rounder for us in THIS year's draft???

At this point I'm not sure there's anything I'd really want for Gaither cause I don't see an adequate replacement for him. Before the draft at least we could draft his replacement.

However, I will say that if we do trade him now, it's an extremely strong statement of what the team thinks about:
a) his value as a player (particularly vs. the backups they have), and/or
b) his contract demands (whatever they are).

I have trouble seeing him playing here next year. Clearly - as many of us predicted - they're moving him to RT. He won't want to be paid as a RT, and so I make the odds pretty high of him looking to get more from another team as a LT than from us as a RT.
- C -

Agreed. And I hate it.

I still believe he is the better LT, however Harbs/Ozzie statement is evident, they disagree.. For whatever reason; talent, dedication, Drug abuse, Drew Rosenhaul.

[TL24x7]

I do not buy the money argument either Tony, Reed, Ray and a lot of big money players will come off the books before Oher, Flacco and Rice are up.

You don't have to buy it JW. But it is a big part of the equation. Investing huge sums of money in guys with questionable character can crush a team's cap situation if the questionable character becomes an issue...(see Haynesworth).

And the other thing it does is it weakens your depth. If you can't afford to pay quality backups because you've invested so much in the front line players, injuries become even more devestating.

I'm just trying to share things that are shared with me. If you want to live in denial, that's your perogative.

[Lee Van Cleef]

You people are out of your minds if you think the Bills are going to dish their 1st rounder next year for Gaither. Why in TF would they do that now when they seemingly wouldn't offer a 2nd rounder for us in THIS year's draft???

Whilst I agree, there are upsides financially to them doing so. Buffalo and likely picking in the top five next year, and quite likely the top three. Whilst they'll want a franchise QB at some point, it's going to cost a lot of money to pay that pick, a the moment they're going to have to pay Spiller a hell of a lot of dough. If they traded for Gaither they're going to have to pay him top LT money to keep him long term. Financially that is a lot of money to pay in two seasons and assuming a salary cap comes back it's going to hurt somewhat.

Like I said, I agree with you. It makes more sense for them to trade a player and a lower pick.

[Jeremiah W]

You don't have to buy it JW. But it is a big part of the equation. Investing huge sums of money in guys with questionable character can crush a team's cap situation if the questionable character becomes an issue...(see Haynesworth).

And the other thing it does is it weakens your depth. If you can't afford to pay quality backups because you've invested so much in the front line players, injuries become even more devestating.

I'm just trying to share things that are shared with me. If you want to live in denial, that's your perogative.

I want the facts not horror stories about other teams alleged cap issues. The Skins may stink but it is not because they spend too much money.
They buy the wrong players and give away draft picks. The Ravens draft very well and bring in good and cheap free agents. Foxworth vs Deangelo Hall, Haynesworth vs Trevor Pryce or Cory Redding, or and Redding is still way cheaper. The Ravens make tons of money and spend it well for the most part. They only had a little bit of cap issues recently because of the last capped year rules and a lot of dead money from JO, CMac, McNair and Rolle.


Oher has 4 years left on a 5 year 13 M contract.
Rice and Flacco are not up for new deals although they could make a case and hold out.

Ray, Reed, Pryce, Gregg, Heap and the other over 30 types with big contracts will be gone before those young guys get new deals.

How are you paying 2 guys LT money if you pay Gaither LT money? He is worth more than Andre Smith and he is a RT.

I do not see any comparison to Haynesworth in the Gaither situation. First of all he is not nearly 30 or a multi pro bowl player. Second, can I get one fact on the record about Gaither that is negative? Just one? Lazy, work ethic, greedy, selfish, stupid, what is that? How can I take those kind of rumours seriously even when coming from a legit source when there is never anything substantial there. He has not missed many games. I saw him shut down Trent Cole playing with one arm. I know he was playing hurt last year but getting the job done. There are guys out htere that grade OL play like KC Joiner, Filmstudy and others that rate him very high.

Help me understand how this makes sense.

As of now players need 6 years to become UFAs. What is the urgency? Where is his leverage to do anything but create rumours? That is what his agent does, but it does not always work.

To me it seems like Harbs is playing the game as well. Moving him around, calling him out in the media for not coming to workouts and such.

Is there anything on the record from the team or his agent that he wants to be traded? All I have heard is he wants a new deal and he deserves one. He has way outplayed and out worked his original contract despite the rumours and issues that caused him to be a 5th round sup pick.

He has not signed his tender so the team can not trade him anyway until he does, and at this point I can not see the value in it.

[TL24x7]

I want the facts not horror stories aqbout other teams alleged cap issues. The Skins may stink but it is not because they spend too much money.

Oher has 4 years left on a 5 year 13 M contract.
Rice and Flacco are not up for new deals although they cold make a case and hold out.

Ray, Reed, Pryce, Gregg, Heap and the other over 30 types with big contracts will be gone before those young guys get new deals.

How are you paying 2 guys LT money if you pay Gaither LT money? He is worth more than Andre Smith and he is a RT.

I do not see any comparison to Haynesworth in the Gaither situation. First of all he is not nearly 30 or a multi pro bowl player. Second, can I get one fact on the record about Gaither that is negative? Just one? Lazy, work ethic, greedy, selfish, stupid, what is that? How can I take those kind of rumours seriously even when coming from a legit source when there is never anything substantial there. He has not missed many games. I saw him shut down Trent Cole playing with one arm. I know he was playing hurt last year but getting the job done. There are guys out htere that grade OL play like KC Joiner, Filmstudy and others that rate him very high.

Help me understand how this makes sense.

As of now players need 6 years to become UFAs. What is the urgency? Where is his leverage to do anything but create rumours? That is what his agent does, but it does not always work.

To me it seems like Harbs is playing the game as well. Moving him around, calling him out in the media for not coming to workouts and such.

Is there anything on the record from the team or his agent that he wants to be traded? All I have heard is he wants a new deal and he deserves one. He has way outplayed and out worked his original contract despite the rumours and issues that caused him to be a 5th round sup pick.

He has not signed his tender so the team can not trade him anyway until he does, and at this point I can not see the value in it.

396

I hear the Bears are looking to trade Julius Peppers :261695:

[Jeremiah W]

396

I hear the Bears are looking to trade Julius Peppers :261695:

Alright. Peppers would have been Haynesworth like, the Ravens did not camp out in his driveway like Lovie Smith did. Lovie may have taken out any other lurkers in the bushes anyway, it could have got ugly.

I read what you said, and understand what you are saying you can not say on the record, I do not see the money problems though, the Ravens make way too many good investments to have to give away a good young talent like they were a small market baseball team, or a team like the Bills that is scrambling to keep up finacially.

[jonboy79]

Why on earth would the Bills give their first round pick away, sure if he was the missing link, and he is not with so many obvious needs.

McKelvin and a draftpick 3-4 round?

Btw Ravens without Gaither is not going to the playoffs.

He will almost certainly be better then any tackle they could draft with that pick, particularly in the next 3 years while they are clwing their way back up the AFC East.... Top 5 or whatever, any player they pick has at best a 50% chance to be as good.
They'd be CRAZY not to trade only future picks for him.
IF we only get a future pick for him we will struggle this year

Anything less then McKelvin is a firesale... straight up with McKelvin is forced undervalue based on league-wide rumors. We shoudl be able to get more, Gaither is a much better player at this point, with more room to grow. Terrence McGee plus high picks could be a consolation prize


Chances are the Ravens are the best they could be this year with him playing.

[TL24x7]

good investments

You just hit the nail on the head: GOOD INVESTMENTS

___________________

READ

___________________


Read between the lines JW...maybe the Ravens don't think Gaither is a good investment. Maybe they think that they've gotten a lot already in return for a 5th round supplemental pick and to parlay that into something else before his slacky work ethic gets worse after a fat new contract, makes that supplemental pick and even greater investment.

[effo5231]

Maybe the Ravens don't think Gaither is a good investment.

And if that's how they feel... they're almost certainly right. Quick, JB, JW name a player who left the Ravens and did ANYTHING.

And no Derrick Anderson doesn't count, he had one freak season and then regressed to terrible. I'll pass on that thankyouverymuch.

If they're worth keeping, we keep them. If they aren't, we don't.

[jonboy79]

Then you must like Dan Snyder's old approach to managing the cap.

Keep in mind there are other players that are going to require new lucrative contracts who I think are better long-term Ravens than Gaither and more important given the presence of Oher...namely: Ngata, Rice and this guy named Flacco.

Keep in mind that Oher won't be making LT money for 4 more years, and that is only "if" he plays LT during that time period at an average or better level.

The fact that people think the LT play last season was even comparable between these two players is BAFFLING to me. To me, every single game Gaither played at LT was better then every single game Oher played at the position, hurt or not.
I think moving the line around at all makes us worse.

[effo5231]

The fact that people think the LT play last season was even comparable between these two players is BAFFLING to me.

Care to share with the class what makes you a better judge of NFL talent then the Ravens coaching staff that spends significantly more time with these players and has WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more knowledge about football than you do?

[jonboy79]

You people are out of your minds if you think the Bills are going to dish their 1st rounder next year for Gaither. Why in TF would they do that now when they seemingly wouldn't offer a 2nd rounder for us in THIS year's draft???

At this point I'm not sure there's anything I'd really want for Gaither cause I don't see an adequate replacement for him. Before the draft at least we could draft his replacement.

However, I will say that if we do trade him now, it's an extremely strong statement of what the team thinks about:
a) his value as a player (particularly vs. the backups they have), and/or
b) his contract demands (whatever they are).

I have trouble seeing him playing here next year. Clearly - as many of us predicted - they're moving him to RT. He won't want to be paid as a RT, and so I make the odds pretty high of him looking to get more from another team as a LT than from us as a RT.

- C -

I will agree with most of this. It is clear that the FO or coaching staff has no desire to keep the guy around./ By even swithcing their sides they are actively making theOL worse, JUST to get rid of this guy.
I see no victory in this end game BESIDES moving him now. Why get worse at both tackle spots just to spite a giuy? It lowers his trade value, puts Joe in the line of fire and lowers our chance at victory.

It appears they will move him for whatever they can get. And he will become a probowler elsewhere.

[Jeremiah W]

You just hit the nail on the head: GOOD INVESTMENTS

___________________

READ

___________________


Read between the lines JW...maybe the Ravens don't think Gaither is a good investment. Maybe they think that they've gotten a lot already in return for a 5th round supplemental pick and to parlay that into something else before his slacky work ethic gets worse after a fat new contract, makes that supplemental pick and even greater investment.

I could get behind that idea if he actually had the leverage to get a fat new contract. Why not just continue to tender him as a RFA or use a franchise tag like the steelers did with Colon? How is Gaither eligible or worthy of a huge gauranteed contract? I think he deserves more than he is going to get, but he does not have the leverage to get it.

I also know there is more to the story than is going to get on the record, but that is what makes it so interesting.

What is up with C Mac these days?

[jonboy79]

And if that's how they feel... they're almost certainly right. Quick, JB, JW name a player who left the Ravens and did ANYTHING.

And no Derrick Anderson doesn't count, he had one freak season and then regressed to terrible. I'll pass on that thankyouverymuch.

If they're worth keeping, we keep them. If they aren't, we don't.

Let's start with Priest Holmes, a good and clear comparison.
Not highly sought after at draft time, and therefore by the Ravens brass who always pay their own first round picks to be the highest at their position ever, and really noone else...

went on to multiple pro-bowls elsewhere, as Gaither would likely do. Send him to the NFC and he might not muss a probowl....

[effo5231]

It appears they will move him for whatever they can get. And he will become a probowler elsewhere.

Just like AD, Sharper, Starks, Kemoeatu, Andersen, Sam Adams, Jamal, Ovie, and Hartwell right?

[jonboy79]

Care to share with the class what makes you a better judge of NFL talent then the Ravens coaching staff that spends significantly more time with these players and has WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more knowledge about football than you do?

Because they aren't basing this decision on what happenned on Sundays last year. If they were, they would be trotting JG as one of the highest paid LT's in football.
Obviously there is more to the story. The team is CLEARLY ready to move on without him.

[Jeremiah W]

Care to share with the class what makes you a better judge of NFL talent then the Ravens coaching staff that spends significantly more time with these players and has WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more knowledge about football than you do?

Gaither did play LT better than Oher last year, but they are both really good young players. Gaither has been rehabbing some injuries and was not in the start off the off season program.

I do not think anything is set in stone at this point. The roster is still fluid as Oz said and comp will sort it out for the most part. If both are healthy and in top shape I think Gaither is a better LT than Oher, but really do not care where they line up as long as they have an elite line. Really it is better if they can both play either side so they can swap them to match up with certain defensive players or formations. Maybe there will be even more unbalanced stuff and 6 man lines. Cam is a mad science type of OC with a lot of options.

[effo5231]

Let's start with Priest Holmes, a good and clear comparison.

Priest's post Raven's career: 758 yards and 9.5 TDs per season. With two prolific scoring seasons.

Jamal post Priest career (i.e. His numbers from the year he tore his ACL and onward): 1082 yards and 6.5 TDs per season. With several seasons of carrying a bad team entirely on his back.

Meh... I don't feel like we missed out on much considering what we got by letting him go.

Sorta the same way I feel about Gaither and Oher.

[CRZA938]

The fact that people think the LT play last season was even comparable between these two players is BAFFLING to me. To me, every single game Gaither played at LT was better then every single game Oher played at the position, hurt or not.

I think moving the line around at all makes us worse.

I agree in that if you look at their body of work last year that Gaither was the better left tackle, but I don't think you can discount the fact that Oher had to switch from right tackle to left tackle a quarter of the way through the season all while getting his bearings as a rookie. Keep in mind we are comparing someone who was in their 3rd year in the league to someone in their first.

Time will tell if the Ravens are making a wise move, but I think we can all agree they doing what they beleive is best for the team.

You very well may be right, but I hope you're wrong...

[Jeremiah W]

Just like AD, Sharper, Starks, Kemoeatu, Andersen, Sam Adams, Jamal, Ovie, and Hartwell right?

Not every player that left got worse.

Jamal had a very good year after he left for the browns of all the teams in the NFL who had never had a 1,000 yard rusher.

Ovie is a Nigerian Nightmare. He is a force at FB. Aubreyo Franklin was the 49rs franchise player. Casey Rabach has been solid for the Skins, Jason Brown is the man even for the lowly Rams.

Plenty of other guys went somwhere and played well, but any time you go to a new team with a different scheme and style of play you will have a change in production. Injury took a lot of good former Raven free agents out too. Kemo was a force before he got hurt. Weaver played pretty well for a while. AD was the best defender on the Pats when they won all those games a few years ago. Bart, Leonard and Douglass all had good years for the Jets.

When you leave the Ravens D, you tend to get worse, when you left the old Ravens O, you tended to get better, a lot better like Priest Holmes or Chester Taylor.

[effo5231]

Because they aren't basing this decision on what happenned on Sundays last year.

The only place that Sundays are the only thing that matters is my Xbox.

Off the field stuff like the drug rumors (which the team would know about as facts and may be a significant factor in this equation) and the bad work ethic (evidenced by the gut Tony reported Gaither is lugging around right now and rumors that have dogged this guy since college) affect a player's value way more than how they perform over the course of any single season.

[effo5231]

When you leave the Ravens D, you tend to get worse, when you left the old Ravens O, you tended to get better, a lot better like Priest Holmes or Chester Taylor.

I feel like I've already deflated the myth of Priest in my earlier post. Yes he had two great seasons after he left us but his career overall post Baltimore averages out to be super mediocre.

But fine, lets look at Taylor too.

He's averaged 665 yards and 4 TDs after leaving. Awesome and all... but worth 3.5 million a year that the Vikes had to pay to get him? No... not even a little.

Ozzie looked at the numbers and knew that its stupid to pay Ferrari prices for a Volvo.

[Jeremiah W]

I feel like I've already deflated the myth of Priest in my earlier post. Yes he had two great seasons after he left us but his career overall post Baltimore averages out to be super mediocre.

But fine, lets look at Taylor too.

He's averaged 665 yards and 4 TDs after leaving. Awesome and all... but worth 3.5 million a year that the Vikes had to pay to get him? No... not even a little.

Ozzie looked at the numbers and knew that its stupid to pay Ferrari prices for a Volvo.

There are not a lot of great ones that got away or anything, but the Ravens free agents have not at all stunk in general compared to the NFL average.

[effo5231]

Ovie is a Nigerian Nightmare. He is a force at FB. Aubreyo Franklin was the 49rs franchise player. Casey Rabach has been solid for the Skins, Jason Brown is the man even for the lowly Rams.


And as a showed with Taylor... how many of those guys are worth the contracts their new teams gave them? Would YOU pay Aubreyo Franklin top 5 DT money to be on this team? Is Ovie worth the highest FB contract in history on a team with McClain? Why keep Casey when we have Jason Brown? Why keep Jason Brown when we can get Birk for a fraction of the cost?

Its not just about how well someone does when they leave (and seriously... when you have to cite Aubreyo Franklin as a success story, you're grasping at straws) its also about whether Oz paid the right prices. No one leaves this team and lives up to their contracts... Priest came closest but his leaving opened the door for Jamal.

[Jeremiah W]

And as a showed with Taylor... how many of those guys are worth the contracts their new teams gave them? Would YOU pay Aubreyo Franklin top 5 DT money to be on this team? Is Ovie worth the highest FB contract in history on a team with McClain? Why keep Casey when we have Jason Brown? Why keep Jason Brown when we can get Birk for a fraction of the cost?

Its not just about how well someone does when they leave (and seriously... when you have to cite Aubreyo Franklin as a success story, you're grasping at straws) its also about whether Oz paid the right prices. No one leaves this team and lives up to their contracts... Priest came closest but his leaving opened the door for Jamal.

Wait, what are we arguing exactly? I brought up Franklin just because he is a former Raven and the 49rs franchised him not because they should have kept him. My point is there are plenty of good former Ravens thoughout the NFL. In fact they have most former players playing, or at least they did a few years ago. The highest % of draft picks who stay in the NFL at least the average length of time at one point recently I saw in an Ozzie article.

[jonboy79]

I agree in that if you look at their body of work last year that Gaither was the better left tackle, but I don't think you can discount the fact that Oher had to switch from right tackle to left tackle a quarter of the way through the season all while getting his bearings as a rookie. Keep in mind we are comparing someone who was in their 3rd year in the league to someone in their first.

Time will tell if the Ravens are making a wise move, but I think we can all agree they doing what they beleive is best for the team.

You very well may be right, but I hope you're wrong...

Even worse... is that I think I can discount that....

I thoguht Gaither was better, and will be better, because he is an INCREDIBLY LARGE MAN with INCREDIBLY LONG ARMS.
Oher has better footwork, is faster of the snap, plays with better leverage... has much better technique...

Yet the big, huge lazy mofo with sloppy technique kept his man further away from Joe on average.

IF anything, the gap widens if Gaither makes any progress.

I certainly hope I'm wrong, but I think Oher is already close to his "physical" ceiling. He has more to learn and should "whif" on missed assignmensts, and is likely to imrpove from a penalty aspect as well.

[jonboy79]

The only place that Sundays are the only thing that matters is my Xbox.

Off the field stuff like the drug rumors (which the team would know about as facts and may be a significant factor in this equation) and the bad work ethic (evidenced by the gut Tony reported Gaither is lugging around right now and rumors that have dogged this guy since college) affect a player's value way more than how they perform over the course of any single season.

My point was in fact that I thoguht the coaching staff and FO were making these decisions based on "non-football" reasons. They too know that Gaither was and maybe even will be the better LT going forward, but that they are prepared to move on without him anyways. They are clearly not interested in whatever character problems he does in fact have

[effo5231]

Wait, what are we arguing exactly?

That no one leaves this team unless A. They're not good enough to keep. or B. The price of keeping them is out of whack with the value they'd provide to this franchise.

In other words, yes, a very small number of the guys we've let go have gone on to be decent players for other teams, but I can't think of a single one who we should have outbid their new team for.

So if Gaither leaves, its almost a metaphysical certainty that its because keeping him just plain isn't worth it. Either because of his likelihood or lack thereof to be an elite player, or because he's just not worth the salary if we're going to continue to have good depth.

[jonboy79]

That no one leaves this team unless A. They're not good enough to keep. or B. The price of keeping them is out of whack with the value they'd provide to this franchise.

In other words, yes, a very small number of the guys we've let go have gone on to be decent players for other teams, but I can't think of a single one who we should have outbid their new team for.

So if Gaither leaves, its almost a metaphysical certainty that its because keeping him just plain isn't worth it. Either because of his likelihood or lack thereof to be an elite player, or because he's just not worth the salary if we're going to continue to have good depth.

Except that there is far to small a sample size to suggest making such sweeping generalizations.
I'll translate that for some of you. Until Gaither plays out his career, you can't make any assumptions. And even then, that doesn't directly compare what he "could have" done as a Raven.

[effo5231]

They are clearly not interested in whatever character problems he does in fact have

How do you figure? Either he's as good as you say he is and this staff has suddenly gone collectively retarded, or he's not as good as you say he is and they know damn well what they're doing, or he's as good as you say he is but his major character issues have a pretty good chance of impacting his ability to play to his potential.

In two of those 3 possibilities, jettisoning Gaither is the right move. In one, we have to assume Ozzie and Harbaugh have forgotten how to do their jobs.

Which is more likely?

[effo5231]

Until Gaither plays out his career, you can't make any assumptions.

Ozzie is going to have to make those assumptions when its time to pay the guy. Based on Ozzie's track record, I stand by my statement that if he does let Gaither go, its the right move.

JonBoy, name one player who we shouldn't have let leave this team. Seriously... now that I've shown you the stats are you still gonna argue that Priest was worth a long term deal? Even though keeping him would have kept Jamal off the field and over the course of their entire career's moving forward from the Priest/Baltimore split Jamal had the better career?

Seriously... one guy who we shouldn't have let walk and who lived up to his new deal, and who we didn't have an adequate replacement for.

[Sobo Domino]

Say we do trade Gaither away, then what will we do with the O-line?

[jonboy79]

How do you figure? Either he's as good as you say he is and this staff has suddenly gone collectively retarded, or he's not as good as you say he is and they know damn well what they're doing, or he's as good as you say he is but his major character issues have a pretty good chance of impacting his ability to play to his potential.

In two of those 3 possibilities, jettisoning Gaither is the right move. In one, we have to assume Ozzie and Harbaugh have forgotten how to do their jobs.

Which is more likely?


IT's character issues. I've seen him play enough and stand by my evaluation. He is a goot LT. This isn't about Sundays.

[jonboy79]

Say we do trade Gaither away, then what will we do with the O-line?

Pray?
Right now, my hopes are that Ramon is ready to go. Any other solutiond is pretty putrid, and at least I haven't seem him stink it up, so I can hope he is adequate..
I don't have faith that Cousins can ever become and NFL OT.
Yanda is fine for short stretches, but I'd rather not go 16 games with Him and Chester starting alongside eachother with no depth....

[The Fanatic]

Soiunds like something might be going on at 1 winning drive today regarding Gaither...
Gaither A No Show (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/08/ravens-ot-gaither-a-no-show-on-saturday/)


Either he is on the brink of being traded, or him and/or his agent are idiots.

The latter certainly would contribute to why all thye trade speculation and the Ravens wanting or willing to part with him.

[TL24x7]

Adding to speculation, Gaither is in the training room...not even a hint of injury yesterday...smells like a Rosenhaus ploy

[The Fanatic]

Adding to speculation, Gaither is in the training room...not even a hint of injury yesterday...smells like a Rosenhaus ploy

What's that old sayin'...

Oh yeah....

If it smells like chit, it must be chit!!:hammer:

[purplepoe]

This isn't anything new with Gaither.

It's just that some people are just realizing who he is and some refuse to believe that Gaither has major work ethic issues and it's wearing thin with the organization.

It's been that way since day 1.

PP

[The Fanatic]

Anybody that thinks we're getting a 1st round pick for Gaither in a trade is out of there minds.
Dude was a 5th round supplemmentary draft pick for a reason which I think is pretty clear right now.

Is he starting LT material?
Certanly, but he's got baggage which lowers his value.

I'm pretty sure every team wants to have premier or starting ability players as back ups at every position, but it simply isn't financially possible.

Worrying about what would happen if God forbid Oher was to get hurt should have little to do with whether or not you trade Gaither.

No doubt in my mind they'll bring someboy in at a value rate that can fill in and do a respectable enough job at RT and backup at LT if need be.

Not every position on the field can be filled in with pro bowl calibre players.

Clearly Oher was drafted to be the long term LT here.

My gut feeling is that Buffalo doesn't want to part with a 2nd rounder for Gaither, and that is what Ozzie is asking for.

If Ozzie can get a 2nd rounder out of them I'd jump on it like flys on shit!!

A 2nd rounder from Buffalo is surely going to be a top 10 pick in the 2nd round next year.

At worst I'd take a 3rd and maybe a 4th or 5th if they can't bilk the 2nd.

Even though he has issues, he'ds still a starting LT in this league that has shown he can play if motivated.

Better to get something in return now then get nothing at all when I'd say the likelyhood of him returning here next year after all this is slim to none at best.

That additional pick or picks next year would be sweet to have in exchange for a guy that has some issues going on that won't be here anyway.

Sit back, relax and watch Ozzie either pull of some serious value here or Gaither and his agent sit it out and lower his value even more if he doesn't step up to the plate and play RT.

[Jeremiah W]

Why take a 2nd round pick next year for a starting tackle you have under control at least this year and most likley until his 7th season if you want him and the rules do not change a lot in favor of the players?

Who said the Ravens have to give him huge money to keep him?

Why not just tender him again or tag him and trade him like Brandon Marshall?

I do not see how he would be able to just walk out the door without getting a 3rd round comp pick at the very least or a Boldin or Cromartie type of deal for a current year valuable draft pick/s.

[CRZA938]

I thoguht Gaither was better, and will be better, because he is an INCREDIBLY LARGE MAN with INCREDIBLY LONG ARMS.


The only thing I would say here is that if physical tools were all that mattered. JaMarcus Russel would be All Pro.

In a round about way, we are saying the same thing about Gaither and the Ravens, it's about the intangibles (or lack thereof).

I wouldn't go as far as you and say the Oher is close to his ceiling.

[StingerNLG]

This isn't anything new with Gaither.

It's just that some people are just realizing who he is and some refuse to believe that Gaither has major work ethic issues and it's wearing thin with the organization.

It's been that way since day 1.

PP

For goodness sakes remember OTA's just a little while ago? Harbaugh had to come out and smack him a bit in the press. This guy is a 5th round pick who is acting like he's the #4 overall pick in his draft.

Harbaugh has proven now time and again that he's not tolerant of this behavior by the players. Gaither hasn't seemed to grasp that just yet.

[B-more Ravor]

Why take a 2nd round pick next year for a starting tackle you have under control at least this year and most likley until his 7th season if you want him and the rules do not change a lot in favor of the players?

Who said the Ravens have to give him huge money to keep him?

Why not just tender him again or tag him and trade him like Brandon Marshall?



Unless they are re-signed before then, the Ravens will have a boatload of UFAs next year - Ngata, Gaither, Yanda, Koch, McClain, Landry, etc. - assuming there is football being played.

Any new agreement will likely have Salary Cap rules similar to the ones that were in place in the past. Those rules are not at all at issue in the present negotiations. Sure there will be some tweeks and likely a hard rookie cap, but other than that no one is taking issue with how the Cap operates. The real issues revolve around how much the Cap is and how that ceiling is calculated.

That was basically the only issue in the last negotiations (2006) and they pretty left all of the other rules in place. As it turns out, the owners gave up too much (their opinion) and opted out. Now, they want the players to give back some of the pie that they were given in the last CBA.

So, it's not about the day-to-day application of the Cap that is at issue, it's how the Cap ceiling itself is calculated.

[effo5231]

I'm still waiting for one of you "Oz can't get rid of Gaither" types to tell me one player Oz let go who A. Would have been worth the price his new team paid him, or B. We didn't have a suitable replacement for.

Until you can show me that Ozzie has ever even made that mistake, I think its ridiculous to assume he's making it now.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

What a shame.

He pouted and did the college equivalent of this at Maryland when they moved him to RT.

This is obviously a case of...coming in expecting to play LT, being told something else at the last second, going through the motions since he was already on his way out, and then after practice and consulting with Rosenhaus, coming up with a phantom injury as a way of sending thier own message to the team...that if they hurt his cash earning potential at LT, this may be what we get during the season...a disgruntled employee.

[RavenScallywag]

Here's all my thoughts on this Gaither business...

I'm comfortable with Oher at LT. He showed some good flashes last year, I think he'll be as good if not better than Gaither, at least in the long run. What I'm not so comfortable with yet is Cousins starting at RT...

I am absolutely befuddled how the coaches are talking Cousins up SO MUCH, when it was pretty obvious to everyone that Cousins played pretty crappy last year. Even today, Cam made a big point of talking up what Cousins has done in minicamp and the offseason. Maybe he did something drastic in the offseason we don't know of, but if his play last year was an indication, he's still a ways off from being a reliable starter, especially when you consider the pass rush the Steelers bring, AND the additions made by the Bengals (Dunlap) and Steelers (3 OLBs) in this year's draft. I can understand why they talk up Frank Walker, because it's never done as if he would be a starter and it's more focused on his ST impact. But the word on Cousins from the coaches seems to be "This guy is ready to start". I don't believe the coaches would just try to spin sh!* into sugar, but I don't understand how the coaches can have such a high opinion on him, given the footage we see of last year.

Assuming Cousins or someone else is ready to step in at RT and be DECENT, let's make the trade. It's total truth, we're not going to pay two guys LT money, and Oher's contract is already on the books. If a new CBA is put in place before next offseason, our only recourse is to franchise Gaither and try to trade him. Franchise tag value on a T? That'd be the average of the top 5 T salaries, so we'd be paying him LT money if no one bit on our trade. The only concern is whatever is happening now, with this phantom injury and potential of it being negotiating ploys. The more he does this crap, the less we get for him, the more likely we just let him play out one last year and either franchise him next year or let him walk.

[jonboy79]

The only thing I would say here is that if physical tools were all that mattered. JaMarcus Russel would be All Pro.

In a round about way, we are saying the same thing about Gaither and the Ravens, it's about the intangibles (or lack thereof).

I wouldn't go as far as you and say the Oher is close to his ceiling.

You still didn't understand. ON THE FIELD, Gaither's physical tools play out to be an advantage over Oher's significantly better technique. If he had any work ethic at all, he would thus be much more likely to continue to improve. Oher is nearer his ceiling currently.

[jonboy79]

What a shame.

He pouted and did the college equivalent of this at Maryland when they moved him to RT.

This is obviously a case of...coming in expecting to play LT, being told something else at the last second, going through the motions since he was already on his way out, and then after practice and consulting with Rosenhaus, coming up with a phantom injury as a way of sending thier own message to the team...that if they hurt his cash earning potential at LT, this may be what we get during the season...a disgruntled employee.

He should be disgruntled. He was basically just told that his new job is on the right side, where less money is made, despite the fact that he is better then the other guy, and most other guys that play that position around the league. Furthermore, the move was phrased as "possibly permanent" as in it's not even up for grabs. Kinda silly when most signs point to the better player being passed over for work eithic and personality issues.

[Brtnder81]

And if that's how they feel... they're almost certainly right. Quick, JB, JW name a player who left the Ravens and did ANYTHING.

And no Derrick Anderson doesn't count, he had one freak season and then regressed to terrible. I'll pass on that thankyouverymuch.

If they're worth keeping, we keep them. If they aren't, we don't.

Rod Woodson, Priest Holmes, Chester Taylor, Bart Scott, Jason Brown, Brandon Stokley

[effo5231]

Rod Woodson, Priest Holmes, Chester Taylor, Bart Scott, Jason Brown, Brandon Stokley

Woodson left the team after we drafted Reed. I'd call that an adequate replacement.

Priest left so Jamal could assume the mantle of starter. A freak injury prevented that from happening immediately but do you really think we'd be a good team if we paid our back up running back 3.5 million a year? Especially when I already proved that Jamal had the better career overall after Priest left?

Chester Taylor was a back up who left for starter's money. Once again, are you ok with paying two running backs starter money? If so, why?

Bart Scott was impossible to resign based on the cap situation but even if he wasn't... He had 67 tackles for the Jets last year while Gooden/Ellerbe had 75 filling his old spot. And those two played on special teams. And our D was still pretty damn dominant. Hard to argue that we didn't adequately replace him.

Jason Brown was replaced by Matt Birk for significantly less money. How is that not an adequate replacement?

Stokely was replaced by Marcus Robinson who had 10 more catches for nearly twice the yardage as Stokes did that season.

So... wanna try again?

[RavenScallywag]

I thought the question was just "Name anyone who left the Ravens and still had good careers after"

In which case all answers qualify, but you are correct, none of them were "mistakes" because we had players step up to replace them.

[effo5231]

I thought the question was just "Name anyone who left the Ravens and still had good careers after"

Yea... I rephrased the question after JB brought up the Priest Holmes example. Just because a guy leaves the team and performs doesn't mean letting him go is the wrong move.

[jonboy79]

Yea... I rephrased the question after JB brought up the Priest Holmes example. Just because a guy leaves the team and performs doesn't mean letting him go is the wrong move.

but in this case we don't have anyone to fill in...

[effo5231]

but in this case we don't have anyone to fill in...

Says you.

Once again, please tell me the last time we let someone go who A. Would have been worth the contract that the new team gave them for us to keep them, and B. We didn't adequately replace?

[psuasskicker]

You still didn't understand. ON THE FIELD, Gaither's physical tools play out to be an advantage over Oher's significantly better technique. If he had any work ethic at all, he would thus be much more likely to continue to improve. Oher is nearer his ceiling currently.

I'm sorry, this can't just be let go without challenge. This statement is as ridiculous as it is naive. You cannot possibly mount a reasonable argument to show that a player going into his second NFL season is closer to his ceiling than a player going into his fourth NFL season. It's close to suggesting that Percy Harvin is closer to his ceiling than Vincent Jackson.

NFL experience cannot in any way be substituted for experience at lower levels. A guy with 3 years NFL experience and only a handful of college years is still far more experienced and closer to his peak than a guy with one year NFL experience that has played football his whole life. It's mind-boggling to suggest otherwise.

- C -

[CRZA938]

You still didn't understand. ON THE FIELD, Gaither's physical tools play out to be an advantage over Oher's significantly better technique. If he had any work ethic at all, he would thus be much more likely to continue to improve. Oher is nearer his ceiling currently.

No, I understand, I just don't agree. Gaither is going into his 4th year and has better technique than you are giving him credit for. Besides, Gaither will NEVER realize his potentail ON THE FIELD due to all of the reasons that have been discussed at great length. Which is really all that matters anyway.

Oher will continue to get stronger and improve his technique, therefore he too will continue to improve. Your argument is that becuase Gaither is lazy, but taller and has longer arms, that IF he puts it all together that he will be the better player. I would say maybe to that, but it is highly unlikely.

[RavenScallywag]

effo, I see what you're saying, and generally, I would agree...but from our standpoint, the last image we have of Cousins is the terrible performance against the Steelers. After that, we got Gaither and Oher back together and that's how we finished the season and playoffs.

So, with nothing to show after that game, it's a bit hard for us to believe that Cousins has improved SO much that he'd be effective at RT this season. The thing that's confusing/worrying me is that the coaching staff really seems to be talking up Cousins line nobody's business. Maybe he really has done a lot of work in the offseason, but other than the coaches, no one else has seen or said anything about it.

That leads me to think either the coaches are using this as a motivation for Gaither to get with their program or they are trying to calm the fans down if we do eventually trade Gaither. Both seem like an odd thing to do though.

[CRZA938]

Kinda silly when most signs point to the better player being passed over for work eithic and personality issues.

You really think it is silly to lose your job because of you lack a work ethic and aren't committed to the team? The reasons that are currently keeping him from starting at left tackle are the same reasons why I doubt that he will ever reach his potential. If anything, he will more than likely get worse once he recieves his big pay day. You keep trying to seperate play on the field with the intangibles on and off it. I just don't believe you can do that and obviously, the Ravens agree.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

I don't agree with this potential move...which probably is going to be something like Ashton Youboty and a 4th round pick. I don't think that is close to fair value but whatever.

Just hope it works out...at this point, with all the arguing and with Gaither's current attitude, I am close to not caring.

I just hope if they do, they don't just put Cousins in there. Get some insurance like Flozell Adams in there in case Cousins hasn't progressed like we hope.

[RavenScallywag]

I don't agree with this potential move...which probably is going to be something like Ashton Youboty and a 4th round pick. I don't think that is close to fair value but whatever.

If the deal is that, it tells me that Ozzie was more desperate for a CB than he initially let on. In all the recent interviews, he seemed like he was sure the CB he's looking for would shake out sometime in June/July. It appears that for whatever reasons, Gaither isn't a top dollar LT in all team's books...So fair value has to go out the window. Youbouty and a 3rd is the lowest deal I'd do though, Youbouty was a 3rd round pick in 06, no way is he 1st round value, I'd rate him more like a 3rd round value, being generous. So you are basically trading Gaither for 2 3rd rounders. The Bills message board thinks the deal might be Youbouty for Gaither straight up, and they are falling all over themselves laughing if that's the case. They seem to be a lot more concerned about losing a 3rd round pick than losing Youbouty.


I just hope if they do, they don't just put Cousins in there. Get some insurance like Flozell Adams in there in case Cousins hasn't progressed like we hope.

Cousins seems to be getting the Frank Walker treatment from the coaches. No matter how much the fans dislike him, the coaches seem to be very happy with Cousins' progress. Either he really has worked on his pass blocking deficiencies, or he brings something else to the team where the coaches value that enough to look past his poor performance against the Steelers.

In either case, I don't see us bringing in a Flozell Adams. Best we can hope for is a guy like Tony Moll. Low cost, low profile guy, more suited as a career backup...Basically, I'd be prepared to see Heap spend his final season as a Raven acting as a blocker to help on the right side.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

The Bills message board thinks the deal might be Youbouty for Gaither straight up, and they are falling all over themselves laughing if that's the case. They seem to be a lot more concerned about losing a 3rd round pick than losing Youbouty.




I'd be laughing too. Can you imagine us trading Chris Chester and a 4th the following year for a guy like Carlos Rogers or Domonique Rodgers-Cromartie? Even if they were coming up on a contract and had some attitude issues. That'd be highway robbery.

If it is anything like that, I would have rather done what the Steelers did and taken something like a 5th rounder THIS year. Next year does absolutely nothing for us...we don't even know if there will be a season for sure next year.

Getting a career backup CB and a middle round pick the following year does nothing for me. Especially considering that if we just let him walk after this year, we could get a 3rd or 4th rounder as a comp pick.

[RavenScallywag]

I think we need to stop assuming we get a comp pick...Bart Scott and Jason Brown walked last year, but because we signed Foxworth and Birk, we got nothing in comp picks.

[jonboy79]

I think we need to stop assuming we get a comp pick...Bart Scott and Jason Brown walked last year, but because we signed Foxworth and Birk, we got nothing in comp picks.

Once or twice in the Ravens "lifetime" has it worked out like that. THe Ravens are leading the league in Comp picks since their inception. I think it is safe to assume we'd get a third or fourth for Gaither.

[jonboy79]

No, I understand, I just don't agree. Gaither is going into his 4th year and has better technique than you are giving him credit for. Besides, Gaither will NEVER realize his potentail ON THE FIELD due to all of the reasons that have been discussed at great length. Which is really all that matters anyway.

Oher will continue to get stronger and improve his technique, therefore he too will continue to improve. Your argument is that becuase Gaither is lazy, but taller and has longer arms, that IF he puts it all together that he will be the better player. I would say maybe to that, but it is highly unlikely.

Do you really argue either of these statements?

Gaither has mroe physical, god given Size and ability then Oher.

Oher is the more skilled football player.

[baltimore_hokie]

Do you really argue either of these statements?

Gaither has mroe physical, god given Size and ability then Oher.

Oher is the more skilled football player.

Yeah, it's like Demetrius Williams (or Yamon Figurs) vs Mason. I know who I'd take, and it's not the dumbass player with physical tools.

[jonboy79]

Yeah, it's like Demetrius Williams (or Yamon Figurs) vs Mason. I know who I'd take, and it's not the dumbass player with physical tools.

It's more like Brandon Marshall vs Derrick Mason...

Figurs and Williams did very little on the field. Marshall outproduces Mason in spurts, and spends other times hurt or as a problem...

Oher is a more consistant player with a better head you can count on, but I don't see him ever being better then what Gaither is when he is "up" in his range.

The big "IF" is whether Gaither could ever screw his head on straight, apparently the Ravens FO thinks it's NO, because IF he could, then there is no question who would be better.

[RavensNTerps]

Yeah, it's like Demetrius Williams (or Yamon Figurs) vs Mason. I know who I'd take, and it's not the dumbass player with physical tools.

Wow. Just wow. You couldn't try to be more wrong than this.

[baltimore_hokie]

Wow. Just wow. You couldn't try to be more wrong than this.

It's a foreign language called sarcasm. Do they not teach that at College Park??

[psuasskicker]

It's more like Brandon Marshall vs Derrick Mason...

No it's not. You're grotesquely overestimating Gaither's tools and underestimating Oher's. Gaither has some great tools, but virtually the only thing he's legitimately got on Oher is his size. He's not faster, he's not stronger (save a size advantage), and he's certainly got nowhere near the technique or brains.

If Gaither actually played up to his potential, he might be better than Oher in the long run. But he hasn't tried to do so his first three years. Oher has looked the part after his first year, and it should be fully expected that two years from now he's playing at a higher level than Gaither.

This isn't like Marshall vs. Mason. This is like Marshall vs. Vince Jackson. Oher doesn't use technique to overcome physical deficiencies like Mason, he uses them in combination with great physical attributes to be a great player. He's a ramping up rookie, and gave no indication from his play last year that we should expect him to suddenly plateau, nor that he would plateau at a level of play below what Gaither's playing at now.

Though you think Gaither's playing at top five LT levels now, so maybe that's not the case for you. But in reality, Gaither isn't playing at top five LT levels...

- C -

[jonboy79]

No it's not. You're grotesquely overestimating Gaither's tools and underestimating Oher's. Gaither has some great tools, but virtually the only thing he's legitimately got on Oher is his size. He's not faster, he's not stronger (save a size advantage), and he's certainly got nowhere near the technique or brains.

If Gaither actually played up to his potential, he might be better than Oher in the long run. But he hasn't tried to do so his first three years. Oher has looked the part after his first year, and it should be fully expected that two years from now he's playing at a higher level than Gaither.

This isn't like Marshall vs. Mason. This is like Marshall vs. Vince Jackson. Oher doesn't use technique to overcome physical deficiencies like Mason, he uses them in combination with great physical attributes to be a great player. He's a ramping up rookie, and gave no indication from his play last year that we should expect him to suddenly plateau, nor that he would plateau at a level of play below what Gaither's playing at now.

Though you think Gaither's playing at top five LT levels now, so maybe that's not the case for you. But in reality, Gaither isn't playing at top five LT levels...

- C -

I don't disagree with much.
BUt, derspite the fact that "all Gaither has is size" her played noticeably better then Oher did last year at LT. It wasn't NEARLY the "tossup" some make it out to be, it wasn't close.

[psuasskicker]

I don't disagree with much.
BUt, derspite the fact that "all Gaither has is size" her played noticeably better then Oher did last year at LT. It wasn't NEARLY the "tossup" some make it out to be, it wasn't close.

I don't dispute that he played better, but it's not at all uncommon for a solid vet player to outplay a rookie at any position on the field, other than maybe RB which seems consistently to be a spot in which rookies can thrive.

But that still doesn't address the fact that the Ravens obviously think Oher is the future at LT, and it's highly likely they think he's a better LT than Gaither is right now, cause I don't believe for a second that they'd have made the switch if they didn't think that. The Ravens have one of the strongest personel evaluation staffs in the game, and are sending all of us (and the league) a clear message of how "awesome" Gaither is at LT...he's so "awesome" that a second year player is taking his place.

Do you really, actually believe that the Ravens would do that to a player who's top five at his position?

Top ten, even?

- C -

[jonboy79]

I don't dispute that he played better, but it's not at all uncommon for a solid vet player to outplay a rookie at any position on the field, other than maybe RB which seems consistently to be a spot in which rookies can thrive.

But that still doesn't address the fact that the Ravens obviously think Oher is the future at LT, and it's highly likely they think he's a better LT than Gaither is right now, cause I don't believe for a second that they'd have made the switch if they didn't think that. The Ravens have one of the strongest personel evaluation staffs in the game, and are sending all of us (and the league) a clear message of how "awesome" Gaither is at LT...he's so "awesome" that a second year player is taking his place.

Do you really, actually believe that the Ravens would do that to a player who's top five at his position?

Top ten, even?

- C -

I don't believe it is about the "player"at all, I think this is all about the person. They are now planning for life after Gaither because they have no plans on life with Gaither. Might as well switch Oher now and see if he can stick there for the long term, or if he is in fact a better RT going forward.

[psuasskicker]

The problem is you don't have any basis for making that statement. You think Gaither is this dominator at LT. All the evidence that he's not is staring you in the face...

- C -

[Brtnder81]

Woodson left the team after we drafted Reed. I'd call that an adequate replacement.

Priest left so Jamal could assume the mantle of starter. A freak injury prevented that from happening immediately but do you really think we'd be a good team if we paid our back up running back 3.5 million a year? Especially when I already proved that Jamal had the better career overall after Priest left?

Chester Taylor was a back up who left for starter's money. Once again, are you ok with paying two running backs starter money? If so, why?

Bart Scott was impossible to resign based on the cap situation but even if he wasn't... He had 67 tackles for the Jets last year while Gooden/Ellerbe had 75 filling his old spot. And those two played on special teams. And our D was still pretty damn dominant. Hard to argue that we didn't adequately replace him.

Jason Brown was replaced by Matt Birk for significantly less money. How is that not an adequate replacement?

Stokely was replaced by Marcus Robinson who had 10 more catches for nearly twice the yardage as Stokes did that season.

So... wanna try again?

my response was to your question
"name a player who left the Ravens and did ANYTHING?"
I believe i gave many examples of players that went on to perform pretty well for there new team. I never said that the people who replaced those players were not very good i just said the players i mention did something for there new teams

[effo5231]

my response was to your question
"name a player who left the Ravens and did ANYTHING?"
I believe i gave many examples of players that went on to perform pretty well for there new team. I never said that the people who replaced those players were not very good i just said the players i mention did something for there new teams

Who cares? I don't care what they did for their teams. I care if their performance post Ravens was better or worse than their replacements' performance.

A handful of players have left and managed to have respectable careers, only 1 has left and had what I'd call great success. But no one has left and then outperformed their replacement over the course of their respective tenures.

You can't keep everyone and as long as Ozzie maintains his record of only dropping the guys who he knows he can replace for better play or equal but cheaper play, then I'm not going to argue with any decision he makes to let someone go.