From TL: Gaither not practicing today

[B-more Ravor]

....... he's in the training room with an undisclosed injury. Possibly Rosenhaus-related :)

[Jeremiah W]

I do not know how the Gaither story became the hottest topic, other than that is what his agent does when there is no other real leverage. He would not be doing his job if he was not trying to create a market, buzz and interest in Gaither.

The team never said they were trying to trade him and he does not seem like he wants a trade, but his agent and the team, or other teams could be trying to make it seem that way depending on what the real intentions are.

With what some of the rookie Rts and Gs and top Cs like Brown are getting, it does not really matter much if Gaither is a RT or a LT. Any one of the front 5 could be the guy with the toughest opponent or biggest pay check depending on how much leverage he had when he signed his "contract" and how good his agent was and what kind of franchise and market he is dealing with.

[rastaman831226]

I do not know how the Gaither story became the hottest topic, other than that is what his agent does when there is no other real leverage. He would not be doing his job if he was not trying to create a market, buzz and interest in Gaither.

The team never said they were trying to trade him and he does not seem like he wants a trade, but his agent and the team, or other teams could be trying to make it seem that way depending on what the real intentions are.

With what some of the rookie Rts and Gs and top Cs like Brown are getting, it does not really matter much if Gaither is a RT or a LT. Any one of the front 5 could be the guy with the toughest opponent or biggest pay check depending on how much leverage he had when he signed his "contract" and how good his agent was and what kind of franchise and market he is dealing with.

Not buying into any of the trade hype surrounding Gaither. There's just too much hub-bub in his contract year to be believable. Note: LT's generally get more $$ than RT because they face opponents best DE. Rosenhaus wants his client to be paid LT $$.

[Beerracuda]

I'm not buying this crap either. Since when did Gaither become such a hot commodity? He's a OT with minimal NFL experience, who's been hurt. He's not exactly a #1 draft pick... we drafted him in the 5th round of the supplemental draft in 2007.

Sounds a lot like agent manipulation to me.

[jonboy79]

He's better then many first round tackles...

[psuasskicker]

That doesn't say much. Kyle Boller is better than many first round quarterbacks.

- C -

[RavenScallywag]

that's not a fair argument...Kyle Boller WAS a 1st round QB, and he wasn't really better than most. Meanwhile, Gaither is essentially a 5th round pick playing at a level which puts him definitley in the top 10 of LT.

I don't think we're actively trying to move him, but teams are probably playing a game of chicken right now...if we don't move him this year, he's most likely a free agent that walks next year. I'm not so sure there's a team that needs a LT alone to push to the next level, so it almost makes sense to wait and make a run at him in UFA.

[psuasskicker]

that's not a fair argument...Kyle Boller WAS a 1st round QB, and he wasn't really better than most. Meanwhile, Gaither is essentially a 5th round pick playing at a level which puts him definitley in the top 10 of LT.

He's not "definitely" playing as a top ten LT. He is "arguably" playing at that level, but I assure you there would be no consensus he's top ten given that we can't even get Ravens fans to agree to that point.

Either way, it doesn't matter, you're arguing semantics. If you want to call first round picks only count if they're this year's then most NFL players are better than some first rounders at their respective positions, because those first rounders haven't proved anything yet. Some will be busts, so it's not particularly hard to be better than them. If you want to count all first round picks, then there are numerous examples of solid but not incredible players taken in the mid to late rounds that are better than first round players.

The point is that he made a loaded statement that doesn't mean anything. Gaither's a solid player. But at some point the fanbois have to think a little critically about why a guy that some (many?) here are calling top five on the left side is being shifted over to the right side, and what that says about either his level of play or his work ethic (or maybe both). And don't come back with garbage about how it's not important if it's work ethic cause the talent overcomes it, because the examples of players with all the talent in the world that simply did n't have the work ethic to be as great as they could be is too long to bother trying to list. If Gaither falls in that group, shame on him for not working harder and truly becoming a top five NFL LT. If it wasn't an issue and he truly was top five, there is no way in hell that one of the best front offices and coaching staffs in the NFL would move him off it.

All the evidence is right there, and it's not hard to see. It's simply that several people here are choosing to ignore it.

- C -

[Jeremiah W]

He's not "definitely" playing as a top ten LT. He is "arguably" playing at that level, but I assure you there would be no consensus he's top ten given that we can't even get Ravens fans to agree to that point.

Either way, it doesn't matter, you're arguing semantics. If you want to call first round picks only count if they're this year's then most NFL players are better than some first rounders at their respective positions, because those first rounders haven't proved anything yet. Some will be busts, so it's not particularly hard to be better than them. If you want to count all first round picks, then there are numerous examples of solid but not incredible players taken in the mid to late rounds that are better than first round players.

The point is that he made a loaded statement that doesn't mean anything. Gaither's a solid player. But at some point the fanbois have to think a little critically about why a guy that some (many?) here are calling top five on the left side is being shifted over to the right side, and what that says about either his level of play or his work ethic (or maybe both). And don't come back with garbage about how it's not important if it's work ethic cause the talent overcomes it, because the examples of players with all the talent in the world that simply did n't have the work ethic to be as great as they could be is too long to bother trying to list. If Gaither falls in that group, shame on him for not working harder and truly becoming a top five NFL LT. If it wasn't an issue and he truly was top five, there is no way in hell that one of the best front offices and coaching staffs in the NFL would move him off it.

All the evidence is right there, and it's not hard to see. It's simply that several people here are choosing to ignore it.

- C -

Other than there are no real facts to go on. Trade rumours the team and player have denied.

Gaither played 28 games at LT in the NFL from average to very good. The Ravens move the tackles around in unbalanced looks a lot and they say they have done this in practice.

Gaither did have a lot of injury issues last year so Oher needed to work at LT.

There are a lot of posibilities, but I will be suprised if Gaither gets traded or moved to RT permanently.

The work ethic and lazy stuff is also a lot more rumour and opinion than fact. What are the details oe examples since he has been in the NFL?

[TL24x7]

Gaither sits out again on Sunday. This will be an emerging battle of wills...

Ravens v. Gaither/Rosenhaus

[Mike B]

Gaither sits out again on Sunday. This will be an emerging battle of wills...

Ravens v. Gaither/Rosenhaus

Anyone else think this has been handled poorly by both sides. My question is why would we wait until he shows up for OTA to tell him. As for him this sure seems like a convenient injury. Bottom line, Ozzie or Coach Special Teams should have called him before OTA

[psuasskicker]

How exactly have the Ravens handled this poorly? The dude shows up overweight and out of shape after Harbaugh calls him out to achieve the potential he has to become a dominating player at the position, and starts playing injury games to sit out when they move him to the right side of the line. The team's not doing anything wrong. Gaither's simply trying to get paid like he's an elite when he's not. The Ravens would be stupid to bend to those demands.

- C -

[Mike B]

How exactly have the Ravens handled this poorly? The dude shows up overweight and out of shape after Harbaugh calls him out to achieve the potential he has to become a dominating player at the position, and starts playing injury games to sit out when they move him to the right side of the line. The team's not doing anything wrong. Gaither's simply trying to get paid like he's an elite when he's not. The Ravens would be stupid to bend to those demands.

- C -

It was mishandled because you should notify the player of the position change before he comes into camp and is among his peers. The way it was handled by Rosenhaus and Gaither is also wrong. I think Harbaugh's heavy hand approach was not what the situation called for.

One other thing to consider. If we are trying to trade Gaither why are we doing things to drive down his value. I agree with you, he is not an elite tackle but he is much better than some here are giving him credit for.

I have come full circle. In a year where we hopefully will make a run at the Lombardi trophy, I would like to see Gaither stay.

[psuasskicker]

It was mishandled because you should notify the player of the position change before he comes into camp and is among his peers.

Perhaps if Gaither was kind enough to notify them that he was going to come into camp fat and out of shape they could have accommodated this.

- C -

[Mike B]

Perhaps if Gaither was kind enough to notify them that he was going to come into camp fat and out of shape they could have accommodated this.

- C -

I know I read that Gaither had come to the complex and worked out with the other players before OTA. I really do not care if he came in at 1,000 pounds, IMO you do not wait until the group is assembled and thenn make the switch. I have not read he was "fat and out of shape", and if you actually read my posts, I said both sides handled it poorly, so I did not excuse Gaither of any wrong, I just think Harbaugh's way of doing things is heavy handed.

[jonboy79]

He's not "definitely" playing as a top ten LT. He is "arguably" playing at that level, but I assure you there would be no consensus he's top ten given that we can't even get Ravens fans to agree to that point.

Either way, it doesn't matter, you're arguing semantics. If you want to call first round picks only count if they're this year's then most NFL players are better than some first rounders at their respective positions, because those first rounders haven't proved anything yet. Some will be busts, so it's not particularly hard to be better than them. If you want to count all first round picks, then there are numerous examples of solid but not incredible players taken in the mid to late rounds that are better than first round players.

The point is that he made a loaded statement that doesn't mean anything. Gaither's a solid player. But at some point the fanbois have to think a little critically about why a guy that some (many?) here are calling top five on the left side is being shifted over to the right side, and what that says about either his level of play or his work ethic (or maybe both). And don't come back with garbage about how it's not important if it's work ethic cause the talent overcomes it, because the examples of players with all the talent in the world that simply did n't have the work ethic to be as great as they could be is too long to bother trying to list. If Gaither falls in that group, shame on him for not working harder and truly becoming a top five NFL LT. If it wasn't an issue and he truly was top five, there is no way in hell that one of the best front offices and coaching staffs in the NFL would move him off it.

All the evidence is right there, and it's not hard to see. It's simply that several people here are choosing to ignore it.

- C -

It's obvious that this team is planning for life after Gaither. THat much is clear to me. It is clear to me that it has little to do with his play on Sundays and almost everything about the other 6 days.
It is also clear to me that if he gets his head out of his ass, whatever team gets him will be getting a STEAL.

[jonboy79]

Anyone else think this has been handled poorly by both sides. My question is why would we wait until he shows up for OTA to tell him. As for him this sure seems like a convenient injury. Bottom line, Ozzie or Coach Special Teams should have called him before OTA

Yes, if they really didn't want him they NEEDED to move him before/during the draft.

[baltimore_hokie]

Yes, if they really didn't want him they NEEDED to move him before/during the draft.

I completely disagree.

It would be easier to find a team that wasn't able to get a tackle in the draft, and ask for a king's ransom. The Ravens don't need to get rid of Gaither, and Ozzie would have the upper hand if a team was desperate for an OT.

[jonboy79]

I completely disagree.

It would be easier to find a team that wasn't able to get a tackle in the draft, and ask for a king's ransom. The Ravens don't need to get rid of Gaither, and Ozzie would have the upper hand if a team was desperate for an OT.

They kinda need to get rid of him after this snafu...

IF you didn't think he put any effort in before, why don't you make him even less likely? He'll probbaly hold out now... His value is dropping by the day.

Additionally, now we have no time to replace him.

[baltimore_hokie]

They kinda need to get rid of him after this snafu...

IF you didn't think he put any effort in before, why don't you make him even less likely? He'll probbaly hold out now... His value is dropping by the day.

Additionally, now we have no time to replace him.

No. I would consider this situation less serious than the Troy Smith or McGahee talks that have gone on recently.

He is still playing out the last year of his deal looking for a big contract, it makes no sense to assume that he will slack and not play to the best of his ability.

There are still veterans on the market that could be average at RT this year.

[jonboy79]

No. I would consider this situation less serious than the Troy Smith or McGahee talks that have gone on recently.

He is still playing out the last year of his deal looking for a big contract, it makes no sense to assume that he will slack and not play to the best of his ability.

There are still veterans on the market that could be average at RT this year.

I'm shuddering at the thought of Hotel Flozell doing his best "Willie Andeson Matador" Impression when facing Woodley...

[baltimore_hokie]

I'm shuddering at the thought of paying Gaither a Jason Peters contract to play RT 10 games a year.

[jonboy79]

I'm shuddering at the thought of paying Gaither a Jason Peters contract to play RT 10 games a year.

it doesn't make sense.

Send him to the NFC and he'll be an 8-10 probowl LT... or he can be a RT for the Ravens.
I bet he feels like Joe Flacco did at Pitt right now... We don't care if you're better or not, you go here because we like this guy better.

[psuasskicker]

It is also clear to me that if he gets his head out of his ass, whatever team gets him will be getting a STEAL.

The NFL is littered with guys that you could say this about.


He is still playing out the last year of his deal looking for a big contract, it makes no sense to assume that he will slack and not play to the best of his ability.

I think the problem with this is it assumes he'll bust his ass to play, and we've seen no indication he would actually do that; and that it assumes his play would not be hurt by not getting practice time on the field, and that's not at all a safe assumption to make. Quite frankly Gaither doesn't have the technique to NOT be hurt by missing reps. This isn't a naturally talented dude. He's got the tools, but if he's not sharpening them at practice, they could get dull in a hurry.

- C -

[psuasskicker]

Send him to the NFC and he'll be an 8-10 probowl LT... or he can be a RT for the Ravens.

Just because you want this to be doesn't make it so. He's not a Pro Bowl tackle in either league. He might not be one even if he busted his ass to play up to his potential...he's certainly not while playing below it.


I bet he feels like Joe Flacco did at Pitt right now... We don't care if you're better or not, you go here because we like this guy better.

The primary difference is that Flacco worked hard and wanted the chance to compete for the spot. Gaither seems to think he's entitled to it. That is not and never will be good enough.

- C -

[jonboy79]

Just because you want this to be doesn't make it so. He's not a Pro Bowl tackle in either league. He might not be one even if he busted his ass to play up to his potential...he's certainly not while playing below it.



The primary difference is that Flacco worked hard and wanted the chance to compete for the spot. Gaither seems to think he's entitled to it. That is not and never will be good enough.

- C -

He is noticeably and distinctly better then John Stinchcomb. Coincidentally, so is Oher.

Oher is walking in and being handed the job of a superior entrenched veteran with no competition. If that isn't favoritism and discouragin gto effort I don't know what is.

[psuasskicker]

Oher is walking in and being handed the job of a superior entrenched veteran with no competition. If that isn't favoritism and discouragin gto effort I don't know what is.

Oher wasn't given that job till Gaither decided to make a lot of noise about wanting a new deal and potentially holding out and then walked in the door out of shape. Maybe if he'd have said he's dedicating himself to getting better and came in after having obviously taking time in the off-season staying in or getting into better shape, nothing would have been handed to Oher.

Gaither has no one to blame but himself in what's gone on.

- C -

[baltimore_hokie]

Scouts Inc on Cousins:



With just three career starts, Cousins has limited experience. But the coaching staff has expressed confidence in him this offseason. So the AFC North blog checked in with Matt Williamson of Scouts Inc. to get his take on the third-year player.

"Coming out of UTEP, nobody expected him to come into the league and play right away. He was going to be a project. Some thought he had left-tackle feet. But he doesn’t look like Jared Gaither. He’s only 6-foot-4. So he’s probably best suited as a right tackle, which makes sense with the ability of Michael Oher to move to the left side. But Cousins probably can play guard, as well. He’s talented. He’s got a lot of ability, although we haven’t had the chance to see a lot of it yet. But there is certainly something there to work with. Everyone knew coming out of school that he was going to be a project. So now might be his time with how well the Ravens develop people."

[Jeremiah W]

Cousins did play very well vs Detroit and Chicago and in the Steeler game until the second half when I think he sprained a knee or ankle, then got turnstyled.

In the preseason game vs the Skins it was alarming at the time that Orakpo was abusing him at LT, but in hindsight he did that to better players than Cousins too.

I do not think he will be as good as Gaither was last year, but he may be a better than average starter already when healthy. We should see plenty of 6 man lines this year if the team and games play out as I expect. There should be more games like the NE one where we jump ahead by 2 scores in the 1st or 2nd Q and then go in to grindout mode with the big uglies and a little more over the middle and up the seem play action with the TE depth. Also if we do score more and earlier in the game, then what looks like too many OLB/ pass rushers may have enough reps to go around as teams abandon the run even sooner than last year, and we can turn loose the rushers and bring in Cousins and maybe the big DTs on O to help clear the way for our Rbs.

[jonboy79]

I do not think he will be as good as Gaither was last year, but he may be a better than average starter already when healthy. .

Around here, that might be considered better then Gaither last year...

But unless he improved almost 100% since last year that is jsut not correct. He was one of the worst tackles in football to see game action. He was brutally bad. I'd much rather see him slide into guard then play on the outside.

[AirFlacco]

He's better then many first round tackles...


That's why I thought Skins or Boys would give us their #1 for him. Skins took the
top o-lineman in the draft but he can't be as good as Gaither who is already
seasoned and only gave up 2 sacks.

Boys traded up for the wrong guy. They released Adams which mean they have
no o-line either. This was even mentioned on their own boards when everyone
got excited over DEZ.

Romeo isn't gonna have time to throw to him.


JOnes was so busy trying to out-fox Ozzie that he traded up for the wrong
guy and now Ozzie is laughing at him after having perhaps the best
draft of anyone.

Dallas didn't do so hot after DEZ and they still have no protection for Romeo,
while being over-loaded at WR.

JOnes isn't as smart as he thinks he is and hasn't won the trophy since the
CAP era.

Ozzie has.

[Sua Sponte]

Bottom Line is that Gaither is hurting nobody but himself, I would like Gaither to stay I would like Gaither to compete for his LT spot. If he wants LT money he should be in there competing and busting his ass for the JOB. It seems that he does think he just deserves the LT JOB. The Ravens FO is not afraid to pay a true LT that bust his ass LT money (J.O ring a bell) (yes J.O was a natraul, but Gaither needs the reps). The guy needs to be smart and go into the FO and say he wants the chance to compete for his JOB at LT, and put his pads on get in shape and go out there and prove it.

If it has not been clear since the existence of the Franchise Ozzie and Cass reward hard working guys that put the time in keep their mouth shut (anybody not named Lewis, or Reed. who put the time in and are granted and deserve the occasional chatter if they care to) and go out there and work. That is the biggest problem with Gaither, his work ethic didn't just become bad it has been bad and he has been giving the opp to fix it) Normally when a young prospect is brong in the veteran to the position looks forward to the competion. Gaither should hold himself to the same standard, because the team sure is.

[jonboy79]

Bottom Line is that Gaither is hurting nobody but himself, I would like Gaither to stay I would like Gaither to compete for his LT spot. If he wants LT money he should be in there competing and busting his ass for the JOB. It seems that he does think he just deserves the LT JOB. The Ravens FO is not afraid to pay a true LT that bust his ass LT money (J.O ring a bell) (yes J.O was a natraul, but Gaither needs the reps). The guy needs to be smart and go into the FO and say he wants the chance to compete for his JOB at LT, and put his pads on get in shape and go out there and prove it.

If it has not been clear since the existence of the Franchise Ozzie and Cass reward hard working guys that put the time in keep their mouth shut (anybody not named Lewis, or Reed. who put the time in and are granted and deserve the occasional chatter if they care to) and go out there and work. That is the biggest problem with Gaither, his work ethic didn't just become bad it has been bad and he has been giving the opp to fix it) Normally when a young prospect is brong in the veteran to the position looks forward to the competion. Gaither should hold himself to the same standard, because the team sure is.

Her could skip the season and get LT money in the offseason...

He isn't competing for the LT job here, they simply HANDED it to Oher with no competition. It will take a Troy Smith-esque Tonsil problem to get him the job back now... no matter how they play in the preseason.

[psuasskicker]

Her could skip the season and get LT money in the offseason...

LOL

Name one guy that's skipped a season of professional football and gotten paid like a top ranked performer? This is a dude that teams wouldn't even give up a 2nd round pick for, nevermind a first. If he wants to skip this season, he's hurting himself WAY more than he's hurting anyone else...he'd be lucky to find someone to pay him five mil a year.

- C -

[B-more Ravor]

Her could skip the season and get LT money in the offseason...


If he skipped the season, he'd still be the property of the Ravens next year as he would have failed to earn his 4th accrued season necessary to become a UFA (assuming the new CBA again sets UFA status after 4 accrued seasons).

As such, he'd be a RFA again next year.

[Corey]

He's not "definitely" playing as a top ten LT. He is "arguably" playing at that level, but I assure you there would be no consensus he's top ten given that we can't even get Ravens fans to agree to that point.

Either way, it doesn't matter, you're arguing semantics. If you want to call first round picks only count if they're this year's then most NFL players are better than some first rounders at their respective positions, because those first rounders haven't proved anything yet. Some will be busts, so it's not particularly hard to be better than them. If you want to count all first round picks, then there are numerous examples of solid but not incredible players taken in the mid to late rounds that are better than first round players.

The point is that he made a loaded statement that doesn't mean anything. Gaither's a solid player. But at some point the fanbois have to think a little critically about why a guy that some (many?) here are calling top five on the left side is being shifted over to the right side, and what that says about either his level of play or his work ethic (or maybe both). And don't come back with garbage about how it's not important if it's work ethic cause the talent overcomes it, because the examples of players with all the talent in the world that simply did n't have the work ethic to be as great as they could be is too long to bother trying to list. If Gaither falls in that group, shame on him for not working harder and truly becoming a top five NFL LT. If it wasn't an issue and he truly was top five, there is no way in hell that one of the best front offices and coaching staffs in the NFL would move him off it.

All the evidence is right there, and it's not hard to see. It's simply that several people here are choosing to ignore it.

- C -

A couple of things:
1) It is not uncommon in Harbaugh's practices for players to move around, especially on the OL. Chester has taken snaps at C and G in the past. Yanda has taken snaps at C, G, and T in the past. David Hale and O'neil Cousins are also players that have taken snaps at multiple positions.

2) Gaither may be overrated by Ravens fans but so is Michael Oher. Oher is not a better LT prospect than Gaither and right now the Ravens are a better team with Gaither at LT and Oher at RT. The Ravens were 2-4 without Gaither, and one of those wins came against Detriot. We were 7-3 with Gaither. Thats a big disperity in the win/ loss column for you to be making the arguement that Oher is the better LT, right now.

3) There was an article on PFT a few months ago, that had Gaither rated as the 3rd best LT in football. There was also an article on this website that graded the Ravens offsensive line and it highlighted how poor Oher was on the left side. (When I get home, I'll go digging for the links) The point is its not just bias Ravens fans that believe Gaither is a very good young tackle. People who have sat down and anaylized the tape with the purpose of ranking all the starting lineman in the league agree.

[psuasskicker]

A couple of things:
1) It is not uncommon in Harbaugh's practices for players to move around, especially on the OL. Chester has taken snaps at C and G in the past. Yanda has taken snaps at C, G, and T in the past. David Hale and O'neil Cousins are also players that have taken snaps at multiple positions.

So you're telling me that Harbaugh might have moved Jon Ogden over to RT ten years ago?


2) Gaither may be overrated by Ravens fans but so is Michael Oher. Oher is not a better LT prospect than Gaither and right now the Ravens are a better team with Gaither at LT and Oher at RT. The Ravens were 2-4 without Gaither, and one of those wins came against Detriot. We were 7-3 with Gaither. Thats a big disperity in the win/ loss column for you to be making the arguement that Oher is the better LT, right now.

You're making a ridiculous assertion that the Ravens lost those games because Oher played on the left side, or maybe just that they didn't have Gaither in the lineup. That's not even worth justifying with a counter-argument, it's simply too silly to address.

So, we've got you, telling us that Oher isn't as good a prospect at LT as Gaither. And then we've got the entire Ravens coaching staff telling us that he's better by way of moving Gaither to the right and Oher to the left. Let's see... I wonder which one we should believe.......


3) There was an article on PFT a few months ago, that had Gaither rated as the 3rd best LT in football. There was also an article on this website that graded the Ravens offsensive line and it highlighted how poor Oher was on the left side. (When I get home, I'll go digging for the links) The point is its not just bias Ravens fans that believe Gaither is a very good young tackle. People who have sat down and anaylized the tape with the purpose of ranking all the starting lineman in the league agree.

1) Oher was a rookie. He also took virtually all his reps in practice on the right side. It should be expected he would not play as well as either the three-year solid veteran that has all his time on the left side, nor as well as he (Oher) played on the right side given that's for where all his prep had been.

2) I believe you're referring to this article on PFT (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/03/04/pfts-cash-based-free-agency-rankings-offense/), where they rated Gaither the #3 free agent tackle, not the #3 overall tackle. There are very few people on this planet that actually believe Gaither is the #3 tackle in football, and pretty much all of them are either Ravens fans or Gaither's relatives.

I'm not debating that the Ravens were better with Gaither on left than Oher in '09. Clearly Gaither was better last year on the left side. However, claiming he's the better prospect when the Ravens are telling you he's not is a bit silly.

- C -

[HoustonRaven]

2) Gaither may be overrated by Ravens fans but so is Michael Oher. Oher is not a better LT

And here is where I stopped reading.

Effing ponderous the things people say in here sometimes.

You're going to need to back this up with something more than an out of context PFT article that, for all we know, may have been written at the start of the season.

EDIT: PSU did the work for you. Now what say you.

[darb72]

This argument is still going on?

Nobody, NOBODY, has said that Gaither isn't a good player. The argument is if losing Gaither for a first round pick or a good CB would improve the team in the future.

My personal opinion is that if the Bills want to pony up a first rounder or McKelvin, the Raven's should jump at the chance. That doesn't mean I don't want Gaither on the Ravens or that I think he's a bad player. I just get the feeling, after reading the reports on him coming out of college and over the last few years with the Ravens, that he doesn't have much of a work ethic. Add in that he probably won't be on the team after next season and I think we should strike while the iron is hot.

When it comes to Oher, he'll likely be our LT of the future. He didn't play as well on that side this last season but if you remember, Ogden didn't play LT at all his rookie year. He was a guard. Now that Oher is used to the speed of the game and has had a year to work at being a professional, he'll be fine.

[Jeremiah W]

No one that rates O line play graded Gaither as less than a top 10 LT. Find just one and we can debate that fact. KC Joiner has him as the 3rd best LT in the NFL. It really does not matter because he is not a free agent.

His agent wants a trade because he knows he will not crack Oz, but could get some other team to pay top LT money.

Now the Ravens are acting like is available and expendable, but when the season was on the line, he was the LT. That means a lot more than who is lining up where in OTAs. Oher may win the positional battle this off season, but I doubt it. Last year the line was at its best with Gaither at LT and Oher at RT. I doubt thaqt would change in one off season. If it does it is because Oher out played him. Both players are under contract and the coaches are going to put the best lineup out there when it matters. When they have to let Gaither go, if it comes to that they will, but when was the last time they traded a guy like him? Most of the time Oz will let them walk when no longer under control like Jason Brown or Pashos.

[Corey]

So you're telling me that Harbaugh might have moved Jon Ogden over to RT ten years ago?



You're making a ridiculous assertion that the Ravens lost those games because Oher played on the left side, or maybe just that they didn't have Gaither in the lineup. That's not even worth justifying with a counter-argument, it's simply too silly to address.

So, we've got you, telling us that Oher isn't as good a prospect at LT as Gaither. And then we've got the entire Ravens coaching staff telling us that he's better by way of moving Gaither to the right and Oher to the left. Let's see... I wonder which one we should believe.......



1) Oher was a rookie. He also took virtually all his reps in practice on the right side. It should be expected he would not play as well as either the three-year solid veteran that has all his time on the left side, nor as well as he (Oher) played on the right side given that's for where all his prep had been.

2) I believe you're referring to this article on PFT (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/03/04/pfts-cash-based-free-agency-rankings-offense/), where they rated Gaither the #3 free agent tackle, not the #3 overall tackle. There are very few people on this planet that actually believe Gaither is the #3 tackle in football, and pretty much all of them are either Ravens fans or Gaither's relatives.

I'm not debating that the Ravens were better with Gaither on left than Oher in '09. Clearly Gaither was better last year on the left side. However, claiming he's the better prospect when the Ravens are telling you he's not is a bit silly.

- C -


Here is the other article that I was referring to by Ken McKusick:

http://ravens24x7.com/columns/Filmstudy/The-Ravens-Offensive-Line-A-Look-Back-on-2009

He breaks down the ENTIRE Ravens offensive line. I think you'll find, he pretty much came to the same conclusion that I did.

On Jared Gaither:

What we learned about him in 2009: The Ravens can’t do without him.

EDIT: I just noticed the bolded part. Are you serious? You can not possibly be so blind, that you believe the Ravens brass ALWAYS gets it right.

According to John Harbaugh and the Ravens coaching staff, Frank Walker is a good player. Do you agree with that assertion?

Ravens fans cried all last year about how Kelley Washington was better than Mark Clayton and yet the Ravens stuck with Clayton as the number 2. Did you agree with that? (I actually did agree with that but many didnt and I am betting you were one of them)

The same brass that brought in LJ Smith, did they get that right? What about Davon Drew? Was Foxworth worth all the money they shelled out to him?

It took this coaching staff, what 5 weeks, to realize that Webb was a better option than Chris Carr on kick returns and as the nickle. The only difference is they got it wrong and corrected the mistake. Which is exactly what they will do with Gaither and Oher.


And here is where I stopped reading.

Effing ponderous the things people say in here sometimes.

You're going to need to back this up with something more than an out of context PFT article that, for all we know, may have been written at the start of the season.

EDIT: PSU did the work for you. Now what say you.

Ahem! From the same article that I quoted above.

On Oher:

Was most overmatched by: Jared Allen in week 6 or Harrison in week 16 versus the Steelers, both at LT. The Ravens were so collectively overmatched by the Vikings line it was hard to single out Michael, but he registered the lowest score I had ever recorded to that point. When he was getting beat by Harrison in week 16, Oniel Cousins was in his usual spot at RT chiseling a Hall of Fame bust for Woodley. Cousins set a new standard for failure that day.

As a LT. Oher played poorly against the good competition he faced and he played well against piss poor pass rush teams in Detriot and Chicago. The performances vs. Detriot and Chicago are the performaces that cause Ravens fans to over rate his ability at LT.

He goes on to say:


Development Grade: B+. He’s certainly ahead of the game with his play at RT, but I’m at a loss to see a reason why he should be moved to LT.

Resume your Gaither bashing and keep pretending that losing him would not hurt this team.

[Corey]

I found the ratings that I was orginally referring to. I got the website wrong. It was pro football focus, where I saw it not PFT. None the less:

http://profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2009&pos=T&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1

Take a look. Gaither is rated as the 6th best tackle in football and the 3rd best LT behind Long and Thomas. Mr. Oher graded out as the 19th best tackle in all of football.

[HoustonRaven]

Corey, you do understand what the word context means, right? Because the aritcle you are using as your back up are not helping your argument.

Before I go into the numerous out of context references you make, a word about this "hate" word you are throwing around.

Neither myself or PSU "hates" Gaither. We are simply challenging your silly notions that this is some either / or, with one of the two being some lame brain tackle in the NFL. Not so.


Here is the other article that I was referring to by Ken McKusick:

http://ravens24x7.com/columns/Filmstudy/The-Ravens-Offensive-Line-A-Look-Back-on-2009

He breaks down the ENTIRE Ravens offensive line. I think you'll find, he pretty much came to the same conclusion that I did.

Uh, no he didn't. Filmstudy said that one line and if all you read is that one line, I guess you'd have a point. However, what you have chosen to ignore (or hoped we would not find) are the grades each player got:

2009 Grade: B
2009 Developmental Grade: C+
Future Expectation Grade: B+

Now compare that to the grades Oher received ....

2009 Grade: B
2009 Developmental Grade: B+
Future Expectation Grade: A (uh oh, your house of cards starts to fall!)

This whole tangent, YOU have been talking about the future of the Ravens. Well here it is, in the article YOU quoted, not either of us.

Well, maybe you just didn't read it all that well so lets move on to your other article ...


I found the ratings that I was orginally [sic] referring to. I got the website wrong. It was pro football focus, where I saw it not PFT. None the less:

http://profootballfocus.com/by_posit...=25&numgames=1

Take a look. Gaither is rated as the 6th best tackle in football and the 3rd best LT behind Long and Thomas. Mr. Oher graded out as the 19th best tackle in all of football

Maybe you missed it, but it's a comparison of all tackles from BOTH sides of the ball. Yes, Gaither has impressive stats and that's nothing that's been in dispute. But you fail to state (or, again, that we would not actually check what you posted) is that there are ....

1. There are 81 tackles on that list
2. And means Oher, at number 19, is in the top 25% of tackles in the league in only is first year in the NFL.

Context ... it's not a dirty word.

[psuasskicker]

I found the ratings that I was orginally referring to. I got the website wrong. It was pro football focus, where I saw it not PFT. None the less:

http://profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2009&pos=T&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1

Take a look. Gaither is rated as the 6th best tackle in football and the 3rd best LT behind Long and Thomas. Mr. Oher graded out as the 19th best tackle in all of football.

You have missed an entire discussion on this already. Allow me to summarize:

Pro Football Focus is an interesting site that uses a deeply flawed methodology to grade its offensive line players, and likely players at other positions.

Or perhaps you would like to argue that Jerricho Cotchery, Malcolm Floyd and Davone Bess were top ten receivers last year and better than Santonio Holmes (1,250 yds and 5 TDs), Randy Moss (1,250 yds and 13 TDs), Steve NYG Smith (1,220 yds and 7 TDs), Roddy White (1,150 yds and 11 TDs) or Brandon Marshall (1,120 yds and 11 TDs)?

How 'bout arguing that David Garrard had a better season than Tom Brady, Kurt Warner and Tony Romo?

Or maybe you would also like to argue that Jason Snelling was better than Adrian Peterson? Not the Chicago Peterson...

http://www.themadhat.com/images/fail_20at_20failing.jpg

- C -

[Corey]

Corey, you do understand what the word context means, right? Because the aritcle you are using as your back up are not helping your argument.

Before I go into the numerous out of context references you make, a word about this "hate" word you are throwing around.

Neither myself or PSU "hates" Gaither. We are simply challenging your silly notions that this is some either / or, with one of the two being some lame brain tackle in the NFL. Not so.



Uh, no he didn't. Filmstudy said that one line and if all you read is that one line, I guess you'd have a point. However, what you have chosen to ignore (or hoped we would not find) are the grades each player got:

2009 Grade: B
2009 Developmental Grade: C+
Future Expectation Grade: B+
Now compare that to the grades Oher received ....

2009 Grade: B
2009 Developmental Grade: B+
Future Expectation Grade: A (uh oh, your house of cards starts to fall!)

This whole tangent, YOU have been talking about the future of the Ravens. Well here it is, in the article YOU quoted, not either of us.

Well, maybe you just didn't read it all that well so lets move on to your other article ...



Maybe you missed it, but it's a comparison of all tackles from BOTH sides of the ball. Yes, Gaither has impressive stats and that's nothing that's been in dispute. But you fail to state (or, again, that we would not actually check what you posted) is that there are ....

1. There are 81 tackles on that list
2. And means Oher, at number 19, is in the top 25% of tackles in the league in only is first year in the NFL.

Context ... it's not a dirty word.


Who is now taking the article of context? The overall grades that he gave are for those players at their positions at that time.

Are you trying to argue that McKusick thinks Oher is a better LT than Gaither? Because the article says just the opposite. The article in a nutshell says Oher is better off on the right side. Or do you not understand what the words
He’s certainly ahead of the game with his play at RT, but I’m at a loss to see a reason why he should be moved to LT. or


He has the tools and talent to play RT at a very high level. He allowed just 3 sacks in 13 games at RT, but 3 sacks in 5 games at LT.

OOPS!!!!!!!!!! That sure sounds like Oher> Gaither for LT.

The article also says
He played very well at RT, so his grade is similar to Yanda. PFF has his overall season at +4.5, but that works out as +13.6 in 13 games at RT and -9.1 in 5 games at LT.

Which further high lights that Oher is an exceptional RT but not so good at LT. So, PLEASE explain to me again, how I have taken this article out of context or is that you just didnt read ?

One last thing, how did you feel about Gaither's performance in 2008? Because according to the article, he virtually duplicated that performance. I bet you were not crying for the Ravens to replace Gaither back then. Why now all of a sudden is it such a good idea? Because we've got the hero from the latest Sandra Bulluck movie on the team? Oher has shown nothing in real game action that says he's a better LT prospect than Gaither. Thats not just an opinion, THE TAPE SAYS IT. Show me some tape that says otherwise and maybe you'll have a real arguement.

I dont understand Ravens fan. Why the heck do you want to downgrade the most important group on the field? You've got a guy who has been a top player at LT for two years and you've got a guy who did really well at RT for you last season, why change it if it isnt broken?

[Corey]

You have missed an entire discussion on this already. Allow me to summarize:

Pro Football Focus is an interesting site that uses a deeply flawed methodology to grade its offensive line players, and likely players at other positions.

Or perhaps you would like to argue that Jerricho Cotchery, Malcolm Floyd and Davone Bess were top ten receivers last year and better than Santonio Holmes (1,250 yds and 5 TDs), Randy Moss (1,250 yds and 13 TDs), Steve NYG Smith (1,220 yds and 7 TDs), Roddy White (1,150 yds and 11 TDs) or Brandon Marshall (1,120 yds and 11 TDs)?

How 'bout arguing that David Garrard had a better season than Tom Brady, Kurt Warner and Tony Romo?

Or maybe you would also like to argue that Jason Snelling was better than Adrian Peterson? Not the Chicago Peterson...

http://www.themadhat.com/images/fail_20at_20failing.jpg

- C -

LOL. Ignore everything else that was said. I provided more than one source for my reasoning. You have provided none, other than that the Ravens coaching staff is perfect and never makes mistakes, so they must be right about this. It must be nice never needing to think for yourself.

[UKRavenStockers]

Pro Football Focus is an interesting site that uses a deeply flawed methodology to grade its offensive line players, and likely players at other positions.
- C -

Considering there's only 3 or 4 people who actually know the methodology we use fully, I'd love to know how you know that it's "deeply flawed"? The NFL teams that used our data last year, agents who have requested data from us and the players who've been hugely complimentary of the accuracy of our grades and our processes being "light years ahead" of most fans & media understanding of the game must be miles off base, mustn't they?

To be clear, I've no issue with you disagreeing with the outputs, the rankings aren't meant to be gospel truth, they're the output of our system, bashing the methodology when you don't know it though? Sorry, can't get on board with that as a fair criticism.

[Lee Van Cleef]

I was hoping you'd reply to that one Stock.

[HoustonRaven]

Which further high lights that Oher is an exceptional RT but not so good at LT. So, PLEASE explain to me again, how I have taken this article out of context or is that you just didnt read ?

Check the date of the article. Does it include all the off the field nonsense we have since discovered since the end of the season? NO.

I will assume you have spent some time in college so as such, one of the most important aspects of using a reference that must have learned is the facts in the article AND the time the article was written.

Again, nobody is arguing Gaither had a great 2008 and 2009. Why you keep suggesting that's our stance is mind-boggling. All I am saying (and I believe PSU is saying too) is the better upside, for now and the future is Oher, something the article YOU quoted backed us up.

Talent + Shoddy work ethic = Gaither

(Talent + upside) - no head games with coach = Oher

[jonboy79]

Considering there's only 3 or 4 people who actually know the methodology we use fully, I'd love to know how you know that it's "deeply flawed"? The NFL teams that used our data last year, agents who have requested data from us and the players who've been hugely complimentary of the accuracy of our grades and our processes being "light years ahead" of most fans & media understanding of the game must be miles off base, mustn't they?

He also refuses over and over to point us in the direction of somehting better that grades OL... I guess there isn't any.

[jonboy79]

Check the date of the article. Does it include all the off the field nonsense we have since discovered since the end of the season? NO.

I will assume you have spent some time in college so as such, one of the most important aspects of using a reference that must have learned is the facts in the article AND the time the article was written.

Again, nobody is arguing Gaither had a great 2008 and 2009. Why you keep suggesting that's our stance is mind-boggling. All I am saying (and I believe PSU is saying too) is the better upside, for now and the future is Oher, something the article YOU quoted backed us up.

Talent + Shoddy work ethic = Gaither

(Talent + upside) - no head games with coach = Oher

A. It was AFTER the season, you know the games that matter, not the VOLUNTARY summer workouts.
B. They are a similar age, within a few months. That is so commonly disregarded. Oher has more years of football. Less NFL, but more football, in particularly college.

C. Gaither has so much more upside then Oher. Despite his lazy weed induced Haze, he still signifcantly outproduced Oher where it matters, on the field on sunday's.

D. Coach is the one playing the head games.

The overall picture of that article sure says that Gaither is the better LT short and long term. That was not out of context.
Oher is likely to be the more "stable" player long term, btu I'm not sure he EVER gets to Gaither's current level on the left.

[Dave Lap]

Gaither is a good tackle. No question. Not pro bowl level but he has shown flashes of that kind of talent.

However, if he is as good as some here are saying, why didn't the Ravens get a nibble when all they were asking was a second round pick and quite a few teams are in need of a good tackle? If he's as good as graded, why didn't they ask for, and recieve a first?

[Lee Van Cleef]

Gaither is a good tackle. No question. Not pro bowl level but he has shown flashes of that kind of talent.

However, if he is as good as some here are saying, why didn't the Ravens get a nibble when all they were asking was a second round pick and quite a few teams are in need of a good tackle? If he's as good as graded, why didn't they ask for, and recieve a first?

Many reasons I guess. The questions over work ethic and rumours of smoking pot. He'll be a FA in a year anyway. Maybe Oz wasn't actually interested in making the move and was just hearing out teams to play out a bluff. Paying out a new LT contract without a new CBA in place, especially when that LT is a Rosenhaus client.

The "how come no one traded for him?" line of thought doesn't really appreciate a lot of factors that are going on in the league, team and for the player. It's specious reasoning.

[Dave Lap]

Many reasons I guess. The questions over work ethic and rumours of smoking pot. He'll be a FA in a year anyway. Maybe Oz wasn't actually interested in making the move and was just hearing out teams to play out a bluff. Paying out a new LT contract without a new CBA in place, especially when that LT is a Rosenhaus client.

The "how come no one traded for him?" line of thought doesn't really appreciate a lot of factors that are going on in the league, team and for the player. It's specious reasoning.

I understand that the trade rumors were rumors but there didn't seem to be a lot of denials of the rumors from the Ravens. Also, I agree that the dangling Gaither as trade bait could have been just a way to establish his market value for future negotiations etc.

As far as trade value being "specious reasoning" I disagree. Seeing what other teams are willing to give up for a player is one excellent way to judge value. I'm not saying that it is the only way or final word. .

Probably the best way to get a true picture of the value of a particular player is to look at the different ways to gauge value (scouting reports, number based scouting reports, character evaluations, trade value, etc.) and then put them together to arrive an overall picture.

[Jeremiah W]

Many reasons I guess. The questions over work ethic and rumours of smoking pot. He'll be a FA in a year anyway. Maybe Oz wasn't actually interested in making the move and was just hearing out teams to play out a bluff. Paying out a new LT contract without a new CBA in place, especially when that LT is a Rosenhaus client.

The "how come no one traded for him?" line of thought doesn't really appreciate a lot of factors that are going on in the league, team and for the player. It's specious reasoning.

That is what I ws going to say.

Most, if not all of the trade rumours were from the agent doing what he does.

The Ravens never said he was available for a 2nd round pick. They tendered him with a 1st round RFA tag that he would have had to sign in order to be traded for anything less.

Then there is the fact that no 1st round tendered RFA was traded for a 1st round pick. Brandon Marshall went for a couple 2s and a record setting contract after he signed his tender. No one made a move for Marcus McNiel or any of the comparable RFA LTs or big name WRs like Vince Jackson so the "no one signed him to an offer sheet so he is not that good" line of logic is way off base. He (and his agent) still had to agree to the offer sheet from a team that did not expect us to match and was willing to give up a 1st round pick. The RFA trade market did not work that way for anyone this year, not all the top players other than Gaither.

Moving Gaither around, talking about him missing volontary workouts in the media and un-named sources saying a 2nd round pick could get you in the door seem more like team created game to counter the agent driven drama and drive the price of keeping Gaither down more than it indicates a true evaluation of the talent and potential of him vs Oher for the long term LT position. We know now that Gaither was injured enough to need medical attention on his foot, so that alone explains the temporary position change, that may or may not become permanant depending on who turns out to be the best fit in the starting lineup.

Playing RT for a year, or permantenly does not exactly hurt your free agent money. Guys like Willy Anderson and John Runyan made big money. Stacey Andrews and Shaun Andrews got big money expected to be RTs but turned into RGs. Gs and Cs are getting big money as free agents now as well as top 10 picks going to G or RT long term. The franchise tag price is the same for any OL spot and the value for the entire OL seems to be going up while other premier positions are proving to be more expendable and interchangable like RB and CB. FB and traditional block first TEs are phasing out, but guys those players used to block like OLBs and blitzers are getting better, and really too good for them to handle. Making the RT much more like the LT in that he is on an island vs very fast and athletic player. or he may have to take on a DT type and drive them off the ball. The Gs need to be able to pull and set teh edge in the run game and Cs need to be able to take on NTs as well as get off the ball to the second level and block in space.

[Dave Lap]

Jeremiah, I agree with you about the second round pick rumor. It could have been just that.

However, if Gaither is as good as some on this board are saying, how come no team were willing to give up a first for him? Even a low first?

This whole debate of Gaither vs. Oher at LT is a difficult one. Both players bring a lot of talent to the table. I myself think Oher will be a better tackle in a year or two and think it's a good decision to put him on the left side. I was lucky enough to predict that the Ravens would do that when the question was posed a while ago on this board.

I like Oher's quick feet, ability to get out of his stance quickly, his strong hands and determination.


Am I 100 percent sure that Oher will develop into the better left tackle? No. Am I willing to admit that I could be wrong? You bet. There are always guys who make a good impression their first year and then fade. There are always guys who come on strong after their first few years in the league. Gaither could jump to another plateau this year. Who knows for sure?

We just take in all the data available and make our best guestimate.

That said I'm picking Oher as the better future left tackle for our team.

[Jeremiah W]

Jeremiah, I agree with you about the second round pick rumor. It could have been just that.

However, if Gaither is as good as some on this board are saying, how come no team were willing to give up a first for him? Even a low first?

This whole debate of Gaither vs. Oher at LT is a difficult one. Both players bring a lot of talent to the table. I myself think Oher will be a better tackle in a year or two and think it's a good decision to put him on the left side. I was lucky enough to predict that the Ravens would do that when the question was posed a while ago on this board.

I like Oher's quick feet, ability to get out of his stance quickly, his strong hands and determination.


Am I 100 percent sure that Oher will develop into the better left tackle? No. Am I willing to admit that I could be wrong? You bet. There are always guys who make a good impression their first year and then fade. There are always guys who come on strong after their first few years in the league. Gaither could jump to another plateau this year. Who knows for sure?

We just take in all the data available and make our best guestimate.

That said I'm picking Oher as the better future left tackle for our team.

The same reason no one gave up even a late 1st and a late 3rd for Vince Jackson or Marcus McNeil and the reason AZ gave up trying to get a 1st and 3rd for Boldin and Denver was not able to get a 1st and 3rd for Marshall. The value of the draft picks this year along with the CBA situation and possible collusion totally crushed what should have been a very active RFA market. Elvis Dumerville did not get an offer sheet. Was he not worth a 1st and a 3rd?

I think that plenty of teams actually would have been willing to sign players to 1st round offer sheets this year if there was more CBA clarity. I do not think a team was out there willing to pay Gaither top 5 LT money and give us a 1st round pick, but that does not really mean anything given the fact that so few other RFA were moved and how rare it is even in normal offseasons. Trade value is always a very hard thing to guess. Randy Moss was traded for a 4th, Snatonio Holmes traded for a 5th, Boldin for a 3rd and swapping a 4 for a 5. The Cowboys gave up a 1st and a 3rd for Williams and just traded a recent 1st round pick LB for a recent 1st round pick tackle.

The trade value seems arbitrary with whoever creates the most leverage as the arbitrator.

I doubt Oz would give Gaither up for less than a 1st round pick, but if it helps set his market value to create the impression that he would, that is what he and the rest of the FO would do.

There could be off the record reasons, or they could just be playing finacial hardball like they did with Ray and Mason recently, where there was a lot of rumour and specualtion but at the end of the drama they had the right player at the right price. Oz did not blink when he let them test the waters and flirt with other teams. He knows he has a team that players want to be on, and that he does not have to over pay anyone to fill out a great roster. If Gaither's agent also knows this, and that his client would rather play here as well, all he can do is stir the pot to create a different impression and market him to other teams. Conciering Gaither was a bigger RFA name this off season than Merriman, Jackson or McNiel, I think his agent did all he could do to at least create more interest and following of the situation around the NFL and should at least get teams calling Oz trying to make a deal.

[Dave Lap]

The same reason no one gave up even a late 1st and a late 3rd for Vince Jackson or Marcus McNeil and the reason AZ gave up trying to get a 1st and 3rd for Boldin and Denver was not able to get a 1st and 3rd for Marshall. The value of the draft picks this year along with the CBA situation and possible collusion totally crushed what should have been a very active RFA market..

Yeah, good points. It was a tough year for teams trying to deal their players.

[psuasskicker]

LOL. Ignore everything else that was said. I provided more than one source for my reasoning. You have provided none, other than that the Ravens coaching staff is perfect and never makes mistakes, so they must be right about this. It must be nice never needing to think for yourself.

I've provided plenty. Just because you haven't been here reading for the last few months of this on-going argument doesn't mean that I haven't provided my own evidence for it. I simply haven't felt like re-posting it. The search function works fine.


Considering there's only 3 or 4 people who actually know the methodology we use fully, I'd love to know how you know that it's "deeply flawed"?

I've been over this before and I'm happy to give more detail than what I'll recap here, but the primary points:
- You take no intent into the design of the play nor the grades. You can't, so I'm not saying you should, but it by itself lends itself to errors, not knowing the intent. Clayton runs an in-route, Flacco throws it deep, how do you ding either of them in your grading system when you have no idea which one of them screwed up?
- From my understanding, you grade purely on results of a player's interaction with another player, not with an assignment. A specific play I asked you about maybe a year ago and how you graded it was a play where the Ravens passed, Gaither and Grubbs sealed off the 3-4 DE, allowing a LB to come off the edge untouched. I don't remember if it was a sack or not, but it was a failed play. Doesn't matter, point is that Gaither didn't block outside. Instead, he doubled a man who was already picked up. So despite the fact that two guys doubled up to seal off one man and allowed an untouched rusher to break up the play, both Gaither and Grubbs get the same perfect score as say Clady would when he's on an island blocking his man successfully keeping him off the blind-side attacker. (This, UKRG, was a direct grading that you gave me on the play...I asked how you'd grade the play, you gave me methodology and the grade and noted both get full grades for their blocks.) The flaws:
... - No penalty for someone screwing up and allowing a negative play.
... - Full credit for a double team block.
The net result of this would be to essentially say that the entire offensive line could come crashing down on a nose-tackle, completely seal him off, allow the rest of the defensive line to rush in and kill the QB and yet the OL scores perfect across the board because technically each one successfully blocked their man and you can't tell which one was actually responsible for someone other than the blocked NT.

If this is not considered a deeply flawed methodology, then I'm not sure what is. I admire and respect what it is you guys do. I do not, however, think that it's close to accurate enough to be reliable. Nevermind the flaws I pointed out...it simply doesn't pass the eyeball test. The examples I gave in my post above just scratch the surface of that.

Two final points.

An article discussing PFF (http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/03/04/pro-football-focus-how-do-they-put-their-numbers-together/), its methodology and it's potential flaws (beyond what I just covered).

A discussion (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2010/dunta-robinson-and-charting) by some incredibly intelligent football minds covering flawed methodology.


He also refuses over and over to point us in the direction of somehting better that grades OL... I guess there isn't any.

Just because you refuse to pay attention to what I've provided doesn't mean I haven't provided it.

- C -

[jonboy79]

Just because you refuse to pay attention to what I've provided doesn't mean I haven't provided it.

- C -

You have never linked to anything resembling a subjective analysis of individual OL play.

[effo5231]

You have never linked to anything resembling a subjective analysis of individual OL play.

The word your presumably looking for is OBJECTIVE I could give you my subjective analysis of Oline play but I doubt you'd be interested in it. You know, since I agree with the coaching staff that Oher has the potential to be a GREAT left tackle vs. Gaither's history of being a pretty good left tackle.

[psuasskicker]

You have never linked to anything resembling a subjective analysis of individual OL play.

You meant objective, not subjective, I would hope at least...

Let's not pretend that you have. PFF run by a Ravens fan is arguable whether it's objective or not but I've already pointed out the flaws in the grading system. Want another for good measure? One dominant player can increase the effectiveness of all the other players at the position. Witness Thomas in Cleveland. Every one of Cleveland's OL except one ranks in the top half of players at their position, and the one that doesn't is almost there at #36? ORLY??? This was - outside of Thomas - one of the worst OLs in the NFL by pretty much any objective measure. So your singular source is, to put it mildly, highly questionable.

And largely any individual analysis on Gaither doesn't particularly exist. But what I've given plenty of is the anecdotal evidence of his value. The Ravens have been sniffing around for trade offers since March, and no one's come even close to biting on him. This, one year after the Eagles paid a ransom and then some to get Peters, a guy that is consistently dumped on as overrated and mediocre at best on this board. The freakin' Cowboys just traded to get a cast-off to patch their line, and word I've heard is that they didn't even bother calling to inquire about Gaither.

I've pointed out at least one overall objective and quantitative analysis (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol) of the Ravens play on the left side of the OL. Nothing like a fat (phat) #15/#17 rushing off left tackle / left end to bolster your argument that Gaither's one of the best in the NFL. Or maybe you would counter that Oher was SO bad on the left side that in five games he dragged our ranking down there out of the top five...

But it doesn't matter, I don't even need analysis to make my argument. All the evidence you need is right there in front of you in the form of deafening silence regarding Gaither being traded, and the Ravens coaching staff moving Gaither over to the right side in favor of a second year player. Tout the "they've never been wrong???" argument all you want...you're out of your mind if you think I'm buying your "analysis" of who the best LT on this team is over actual, legitimate professionals that not only have years of experience evaluating these things, but the time spent with each player in practice to see who's better and who's not.

- C -

[UKRavenStockers]

I've been over this before and I'm happy to give more detail than what I'll recap here, but the primary points:
- You take no intent into the design of the play nor the grades. You can't, so I'm not saying you should, but it by itself lends itself to errors, not knowing the intent. Clayton runs an in-route, Flacco throws it deep, how do you ding either of them in your grading system when you have no idea which one of them screwed up?

You're right, we don't know who screwed up and misread the coverage to end up in the wrong place, ball in the wrong place. Fortunately these plays are rare and don't form a large enough part of the grade to fundamentally affect their overall grade. It affects their grade a couple of decimal points in terms of accuracy, but that's no great shakes, those grades aren't supposed to be a 100% accurate representation of where the player ranks across the league.



- From my understanding, you grade purely on results of a player's interaction with another player, not with an assignment. A specific play I asked you about maybe a year ago and how you graded it was a play where the Ravens passed, Gaither and Grubbs sealed off the 3-4 DE, allowing a LB to come off the edge untouched. I don't remember if it was a sack or not, but it was a failed play. Doesn't matter, point is that Gaither didn't block outside. Instead, he doubled a man who was already picked up. So despite the fact that two guys doubled up to seal off one man and allowed an untouched rusher to break up the play, both Gaither and Grubbs get the same perfect score as say Clady would when he's on an island blocking his man successfully keeping him off the blind-side attacker. (This, UKRG, was a direct grading that you gave me on the play...I asked how you'd grade the play, you gave me methodology and the grade and noted both get full grades for their blocks.) The flaws:
... - No penalty for someone screwing up and allowing a negative play.
... - Full credit for a double team block.
The net result of this would be to essentially say that the entire offensive line could come crashing down on a nose-tackle, completely seal him off, allow the rest of the defensive line to rush in and kill the QB and yet the OL scores perfect across the board because technically each one successfully blocked their man and you can't tell which one was actually responsible for someone other than the blocked NT.

I can remember that exact question before and if that's how I explained it I apologise, I must've been drunk because that is flat out wrong. In that situation Gaither would be charged with the sack and downgraded for leaving a free rusher to pick up a double team. I can't see why I would've explained it like that and if you've got a dim view of the site as a result of me not being clear with my explanation then that's my fault. As for the latter example of the line crashing the NT that's a nice use of hyperbole and flat out not true.


If this is not considered a deeply flawed methodology, then I'm not sure what is. I admire and respect what it is you guys do. I do not, however, think that it's close to accurate enough to be reliable. Nevermind the flaws I pointed out...it simply doesn't pass the eyeball test. The examples I gave in my post above just scratch the surface of that.

Taking one example (which flat ain't true anyway, either I've not explained properly or you've misunderstood) and judging the whole site from it is rather shallow.


Two final points.

An article discussing PFF (http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/03/04/pro-football-focus-how-do-they-put-their-numbers-together/), its methodology and it's potential flaws (beyond what I just covered).

A discussion (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2010/dunta-robinson-and-charting) by some incredibly intelligent football minds covering flawed methodology.

With regards the questioning of the accuracy of our player participation numbers, question them all you want, disbelieve that fully accurate player participation is impossible all you like, but to be quite frank, it is possible and we do do it. We've had our numbers verified by NFL teams that took our data last year and we're more than 99% accurate according to the NFL's official player participation stats, with most errors being in transcription, not identification. We don't put this together watching the game live, we re-watch the games over and over and over and it's not "impossible".


- C -[/QUOTE]

[UKRavenStockers]

Let's not pretend that you have. PFF run by a Ravens fan is arguable whether it's objective or not but I've already pointed out the flaws in the grading system. Want another for good measure? One dominant player can increase the effectiveness of all the other players at the position. Witness Thomas in Cleveland. Every one of Cleveland's OL except one ranks in the top half of players at their position, and the one that doesn't is almost there at #36? ORLY??? This was - outside of Thomas - one of the worst OLs in the NFL by pretty much any objective measure. So your singular source is, to put it mildly, highly questionable.


A few points:

- PFF isn't run by me, I'm one of the directors of PFF Analysis Ltd but it's not my brainchild, I was just fortunate enough to be the second man on board.

- I only do the very minimum of Ravens games for the very reason that bias could be questioned. Quite frankly I don't see what good it would do me to fudge the numbers for the Ravens, and to be quite frank I resent the implication.

- Were that your measure of "top half of the league" were that simple, if you take all snaps for OTs (seeing as you bring up John St. Clair) there were 129 OTs who played in the NFL last year (taken as a game where a player played most of his snaps in a game at OT), including all 129 players St. Clair comes in at 70 of 129. Drawing it back to tackles who played 60% of Jake Long's 1147 (most snaps played amongst OTs in the regular season last year) 24th of 52. That's ignoring the fact that again you're ignoring the point that the rankings aren't meant as gospel truth, they're just the easiest way to present it. His overall grade is 0.2 better than Michael Roos' for last season, we're not gonna sit here until we're blue in the face and say St. Clair is categorically a better player than Roos, that'd be absurd. But St. Clair last year was not the same liability he was in Cleveland. Stats might say otherwise, but stats only tell the end result, we're going a step beyond and showing how that happens.

- Also you're wrong about Cleveland's O-line all ranking in the top half of the league barring St. Clair, Eric Steinbach we graded as just about the worst guard in the league last year. Rex Hadnot was in the top half but on limited snaps, we'll see how he plays this year in Arizona. Floyd Womack is not top half either. The overall gradings for Cleveland's line show one elite tackle (Joe Thomas, a no brainer surely?), one excellent young centre (Alex Mack, again, haven't seen many suggest he didn't play well last year), one tackle who was round about average (John St. Clair), one utterly horrific guard (Eric Steinbach) and a group of guards with varying playing time who ranged from good (Rex Hadnot) to average (Hank Fraley) to really not so great (Floyd Womack). The issue with "objective measures" (ie yardage stats) for o-line play is that it doesn't tell you how that yardage was accrued. Was the entire Titans' o-line awesome last season just because Chris Johnson ran for 2000 yards? When his ypc ranged from 3.5 (middle right) to 10.5 (right end), I'd say that's already an indicator that there was a range of performance across that O-line.

[purplepoe]

A few points:

- PFF isn't run by me, I'm one of the directors of PFF Analysis Ltd but it's not my brainchild, I was just fortunate enough to be the second man on board.

- I only do the very minimum of Ravens games for the very reason that bias could be questioned. Quite frankly I don't see what good it would do me to fudge the numbers for the Ravens, and to be quite frank I resent the implication.

- Were that your measure of "top half of the league" were that simple, if you take all snaps for OTs (seeing as you bring up John St. Clair) there were 129 OTs who played in the NFL last year (taken as a game where a player played most of his snaps in a game at OT), including all 129 players St. Clair comes in at 70 of 129. Drawing it back to tackles who played 60% of Jake Long's 1147 (most snaps played amongst OTs in the regular season last year) 24th of 52. That's ignoring the fact that again you're ignoring the point that the rankings aren't meant as gospel truth, they're just the easiest way to present it. His overall grade is 0.2 better than Michael Roos' for last season, we're not gonna sit here until we're blue in the face and say St. Clair is categorically a better player than Roos, that'd be absurd. But St. Clair last year was not the same liability he was in Cleveland. Stats might say otherwise, but stats only tell the end result, we're going a step beyond and showing how that happens.

- Also you're wrong about Cleveland's O-line all ranking in the top half of the league barring St. Clair, Eric Steinbach we graded as just about the worst guard in the league last year. Rex Hadnot was in the top half but on limited snaps, we'll see how he plays this year in Arizona. Floyd Womack is not top half either. The overall gradings for Cleveland's line show one elite tackle (Joe Thomas, a no brainer surely?), one excellent young centre (Alex Mack, again, haven't seen many suggest he didn't play well last year), one tackle who was round about average (John St. Clair), one utterly horrific guard (Eric Steinbach) and a group of guards with varying playing time who ranged from good (Rex Hadnot) to average (Hank Fraley) to really not so great (Floyd Womack). The issue with "objective measures" (ie yardage stats) for o-line play is that it doesn't tell you how that yardage was accrued. Was the entire Titans' o-line awesome last season just because Chris Johnson ran for 2000 yards? When his ypc ranged from 3.5 (middle right) to 10.5 (right end), I'd say that's already an indicator that there was a range of performance across that O-line.

UK

I have a few questions for you.

Does the site have coaching videos from sideline or end zone views?

Do you know the protection called on any single play?

Do you know what the blocking assignments for plays?

Do you take into consideration blitzes and stunts?

Do you take into account games executed by defensive linemen or even the quality of the opponent any tackle faced?

PP

[psuasskicker]

I looked for the specific clip and can't find it cause it's an '08 play and everything I can find is from '09. I did find one of the original threads (http://www.profootball24x7.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40084) with several questions that gave me the views I've got. This thread references the play mentioned above, but I couldn't find the thread where I linked the video. It was obviously just prior to 8/4/08 if anyone else has better luck with it.

I don't understand though...if it's not a ranking, what's it supposed to be? I don't think you can just state that you've come up with an objective measurement system of grading players, give them a grade, rank them according to that grade and then just claim it's not a ranking. That's precisely what it is, and if it's not then there's no sense in having come up with the grading system. (The side-argument to that of course is that it completely negates anyone here's argument that Gaither is a top OT because PFF proves that to be the case with him ranked so highly. Can't have it both ways...)

More to the point, it still doesn't pass the eyeball test. Even if you claim that it's not a straight-up ranking, I think it's impossible to claim that you're not essentially saying that Davone Bess was one of the best performing receivers in the NFL last year. It's literally impossible for the site's grading system to have any sort of credibility and argue that he was actually the 30th or 40th or worse receiver.

I don't see how it's possible the guy grades that highly. Best I can tell it's got a lot to do with the fact that he's got a high catch percent (vs. thrown at) and creates a lot of missed tackles. But this one is about akin to Garrard being ranked #2 in '08...it just doesn't jive on any level. He wasn't good in run support (your own grades mesh with that assessment) and he didn't particularly show up impressively on any level. He's 97th in YPC, 53rd in YAC/rec, 64th in TDs, in the teens in INTs thrown his way and we already know his yards aren't particularly worth writing home about. He is ranked 15-25 spots higher than Derrick Mason, Brandon Marshall, Calvin Johnson and Roddy White, and is a full 54 spots ahead of DeSean Jackson; five guys who were clearly FAR superior receivers than he was last year. And it's not that the ranks are just very close. He's almost 1.5 standard deviations from Roddy White, and over 2.1 stdev from DeSean Jackson (using the top 64 receivers and their overall score as the baseline). And again, if the claim is that this isn't meant to be a pure ranking system and that's supposed to explain away that difference, then the entire ranking system falls completely to pieces simply because of the massive discrepancy between the ranks/grades.

This is one example. There are others. I certainly haven't formed my view simply from an explanation of one play. It's a compilation of things that calls the entire grading system into question in my mind. And I can't reconcile the claim that I shouldn't have faith in this system as a good way to grade/evaluate players, and still believe that there's any reason the grades shouldn't be looked at without a highly skeptical eye. Either it's not a good way to rank players and we cannot have faith in how the numbers rate/rank the players, or it is a good way to do so and significant questions have to be answered about how it's possible guys like Davone Bess, Stylez White, Damien Woody, Jason Snelling, Brandon Flowers and several others get rated so highly.

- C -

[Jeremiah W]

I will take the team of guys breaking down film as acceptable expert witnesses no matter how flawed the rating system may be, at least they study the film.

The great thing about the Ravens under Harbs is that the roles and expectations of players are not assigned or entitled they are earned daily or guys are tossed into the doghouse. There is not a little shed in back of the castle, but when guys fall out of favor here for whatever reason, if they are replaceble they get replaced.

If Gaither is the best LT again this year, he will get most of the snaps there but his starter status is not grandfathered in because he was pretty dominant over the last 2 seasons. Harbs even opened the door for other RBs to get more touches than Rice if they prove more worthy of touches. I love that. The team first attitude and roles earned through comp stuff runs deep and rings true when you see guys that were expected to be starting or at least playing more not. The reason is not always obvious but it is not swept under the rug or let go by the HC either.

I really do not think it matters who is on what side. Woodley and Mathis have casued more problems in the playoffs than Freeney and Harrison have anyway. We need to block all of them better including interior DL guys like Raji and Jenkins who tore us up and those juiced up Williams Wall guys in Minnesota.

[HoustonRaven]

Oher has the potential to be a GREAT left tackle vs. Gaither's history of being a pretty good left tackle.

^^^ This ^^^

That's all I was trying to say. It's not a slam on Gaither's talent. Rather, it's looking into the future and seeing the better upside.

[Jeremiah W]

^^^ This ^^^

That's all I was trying to say. It's not a slam on Gaither's talent. Rather, it's looking into the future and seeing the better upside.

I do no think it is going to be like the starting QB spot where you go with your franchise guy and stick with him even if he struggles or whatnot. In an ideal situation you would be able to move both tackles around to create and counter certain matchups.

This is just a positional battle at this point. Oher may be the favorite at this time, but there is a long way to go until he is the LT in the regular season opener.

[UKRavenGordon]

Gotta disagree on the higher upside. Gaither is an absolute man child. He has the potential to be the best LT in the league. Oher I think has the potential to be a very good LT, but an even better RT - seems to suit his mentality better.

[UKRavenGordon]

Either it's not a good way to rank players and we cannot have faith in how the numbers rate/rank the players, or it is a good way to do so and significant questions have to be answered about how it's possible guys like Davone Bess, Stylez White, Damien Woody, Jason Snelling, Brandon Flowers and several others get rated so highly.

- C -

Surely they are rated so highly because they played well last season?

[Lee Van Cleef]

To me, if these guys had the same work ethic I think Gaither would have a higher potential simply because physically he has more to work with. But they aren't on a level playing field and if Gaither carries on as he is doing then Oher will overtake him simply because he will make the necessary changes to perform better on the field.

It's actually rather sad, to me. If Gaither had Oher's work ethic he'd probably have an Ogden-like career, he's got the body for it, but not the professionalism. That he's getting by the way he has been, despite being lazy, is a testament to his pure talent.

[UKRavenStockers]

Does the site have coaching videos from sideline or end zone views?

Sideline broadcast video, means the occassional missed play but extremely rare.


Do you know the protection called on any single play?

Executed (as seen from the video), not called.


Do you know what the blocking assignments for plays?

See above.


Do you take into consideration blitzes and stunts?

Yes.


Do you take into account games executed by defensive linemen or even the quality of the opponent any tackle faced?

Nope, each plays is graded equally, we grade on a player vs player, play by play basis, quality of opposition comes out in the wash and allows folks to look into the grading and grade composition (by game) to draw their own conclusions from it.

[UKRavenGordon]

Why does it matter who the player is lined-up against? Surely it's as simple as blocking the guy regardless of who he is.

[psuasskicker]

Surely they are rated so highly because they played well last season?

Please show me anything, anywhere that has indicated that any of those guys I named performed at even an AVERAGE level last year, nevermind the top ten and in some cases top five levels that PFF has them graded.


UK

I have a few questions for you.

Does the site have coaching videos from sideline or end zone views?

Do you know the protection called on any single play?

Do you know what the blocking assignments for plays?

Do you take into consideration blitzes and stunts?

Do you take into account games executed by defensive linemen or even the quality of the opponent any tackle faced?

PP

PP - I'd suggest your reading the links I posted. Many of those direct issues are addressed.

Your final question, FWIW, is one of the main reasons I like FO so much. Everything is rated using their DVOA methodology. It takes the average NFL performance at each of the major positions, and then rates/grades/ranks the players and positions according to the level of competition they faced. Two guys that execute the same, one against horrible competition, one against stellar competition, will come out graded very differently with FO, while they would be the same according to virtually every other analysis group I've seen.

Their value system remains proprietary, but the stats they collect are unbelievable. I was a game-charter for them last year, and it was just a fantastic experience. One of the big advantages to it was that I got my hands on all the data they collect. I can't wait to get more time to dig into it further.

Unfortunately I don't have the charting data from everything. I have my own charted data of course, but that only covers about 2% of the season...maybe even a little less, and is extremely Ravens heavy.

- C -

[UKRavenStockers]

I looked for the specific clip and can't find it cause it's an '08 play and everything I can find is from '09. I did find one of the original threads (http://www.profootball24x7.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40084) with several questions that gave me the views I've got. This thread references the play mentioned above, but I couldn't find the thread where I linked the video. It was obviously just prior to 8/4/08 if anyone else has better luck with it.

Fair enough, but if I've understood what you posted earlier correctly with a 3-4 D and the alignment as such:

- Nose on Brown
- End with outside shade of Grubbs
- OLB outside of Gaither
- ILB not blitzing

Then yes, we'd expect Gaither to pick up the OLB and he'd be downgraded if beaten or left the ROLB unblocked. Obviously there'd be riders for a pull block from inside (the Ravens are one of a few teams who pull their guards/centre on occassion in pass pro) or if there was a back coming out to pick up the pass pro.


I don't understand though...if it's not a ranking, what's it supposed to be? I don't think you can just state that you've come up with an objective measurement system of grading players, give them a grade, rank them according to that grade and then just claim it's not a ranking.

It is a ranking, but it's not a gospel truth one, they're performance indicators and are a composition of an in depth grading methodology. Taking the example of 3-4 DEs, from Calais Campbell in 4th to Cullen Jenkins in 8th, they're all separated by 1.1 pts in the overall but they have separate grade compositions. The overall grading is a simple addition of the composite parts of the grade. They're all similar calibre players but we're not gonna sit and argue until we're blue in the face that any one of them is better than the rest. The grade is a performance indication, they're not a gospel truth. Look at run D for 3-4 ends, Kendall Langford in 6th has a grade of 4.9 to Igor Olshansky in 12th has a grade of 3.6, again, lot of players who are similar calibre against the run. Something we want to bring to the site eventually is to give users the ability to weight the individual facets (run D, pass rush, pass coverage) of the grades so that you can come up with your own overall grades, not something we're capable of bringing yet though. Currently they're all weighted individually.


That's precisely what it is, and if it's not then there's no sense in having come up with the grading system. (The side-argument to that of course is that it completely negates anyone here's argument that Gaither is a top OT because PFF proves that to be the case with him ranked so highly. Can't have it both ways...)

The point isn't to completely blow them out of the water, when I say "they're not gospel truth" I'm not saying that if you rank all the OT's from 1-129 on last season's performances that's how we'd rank them, no changes. There's variations in playing time & variations in grade composition & opposition to take into account. They're a performance indicator, but OTs is one of the positions for last year where I really don't think there is any wiggle room, there's some big gaps in the grades from top to middle and Gaither's performance last season is firmly amongst the top tackles in the league in our opinion, however you look at it, he's top ten for both pass block & run block. Again, we don't try to take prior gradings to project future seasons, what the short time we've been doing this has shown is that there are wide fluctuations in player performance (wider than many give credit for, reputation puts a serious bracket on a player's perceived performance). The past is a good indicator for future performance but it isn't fool proof. Last year our grading system showed Gaither comfortably outperformed Oher (particularly at left tackle) but that's not to say that'll be the case over the next 5 years.


More to the point, it still doesn't pass the eyeball test. Even if you claim that it's not a straight-up ranking, I think it's impossible to claim that you're not essentially saying that Davone Bess was one of the best performing receivers in the NFL last year. It's literally impossible for the site's grading system to have any sort of credibility and argue that he was actually the 30th or 40th or worse receiver.

For the offensive skill positions particularly they're more efficiency ratings than anything, we're giving guys credit for things they're doing, making people miss, making yardage for themselves. Bess took a lot of short catches last year, made people miss and got yardage that wasn't there at the catch. Bess was a tremendously efficient receiver last year. There are different types of receivers in the league, these grades aren't there as sole performance indications they're there to be taken into account with other stats. Receiver is a position that we need to work out how to present it because the grades are a bit "out there" but hey, it's not the finished article yet.


I don't see how it's possible the guy grades that highly. Best I can tell it's got a lot to do with the fact that he's got a high catch percent (vs. thrown at) and creates a lot of missed tackles. But this one is about akin to Garrard being ranked #2 in '08...it just doesn't jive on any level. He wasn't good in run support (your own grades mesh with that assessment) and he didn't particularly show up impressively on any level. He's 97th in YPC, 53rd in YAC/rec, 64th in TDs, in the teens in INTs thrown his way and we already know his yards aren't particularly worth writing home about. He is ranked 15-25 spots higher than Derrick Mason, Brandon Marshall, Calvin Johnson and Roddy White, and is a full 54 spots ahead of DeSean Jackson; five guys who were clearly FAR superior receivers than he was last year. And it's not that the ranks are just very close. He's almost 1.5 standard deviations from Roddy White, and over 2.1 stdev from DeSean Jackson (using the top 64 receivers and their overall score as the baseline). And again, if the claim is that this isn't meant to be a pure ranking system and that's supposed to explain away that difference, then the entire ranking system falls completely to pieces simply because of the massive discrepancy between the ranks/grades.

See above, the grades for receivers almost become efficiency grades, the likes of Johnson, Jackson etc. are gamebreakers but they aren't efficient, it's a different way of measuring performance. Jackson & Johnson break big plays on occassion, the likes of Bess, Welker, Harvin etc. give you something on pretty much every play. Would it be worth splitting the types of receivers into different rankings? Possibly, but that's pretty subjective in terms of what "type" of receiver they are.


This is one example. There are others. I certainly haven't formed my view simply from an explanation of one play. It's a compilation of things that calls the entire grading system into question in my mind. And I can't reconcile the claim that I shouldn't have faith in this system as a good way to grade/evaluate players, and still believe that there's any reason the grades shouldn't be looked at without a highly skeptical eye. Either it's not a good way to rank players and we cannot have faith in how the numbers rate/rank the players, or it is a good way to do so and significant questions have to be answered about how it's possible guys like Davone Bess, Stylez White, Damien Woody, Jason Snelling, Brandon Flowers and several others get rated so highly.

Well the guys on that list get rated highly because they played well last year, simple as that. Woody gave up 3 sacks and 10 pressures last year, that's getting beat for pressure (without looking at how quick that pressure came) once every 33 pass blocks and was a part of an extremely strong run blocking O-line, I don't see why it's so absurd for him to be rated so highly. Stylez G.White, similarly, high quantity of pressure on very few snaps, he's going to rate highly, whether he'll rate highly if he gets higher snaps next year remains to be seen, but last year he played extremely well. Snelling is another guy who's played well on limited snaps and has a strong all round game, sort it by simply how well he ran the football and he's down in the 20's. Bess I've been over and Flowers is widely tipped as one of the best young corners in the league, I don't see why our grading illustrating that (strong in coverage and a good all round game to boot) is such a big issue to our credibility.

These grades are put together from watching in full all 267 NFL games, twice. Once for analysis, once for player participation. The database stores all our gradings, all our comments, we think and have been widely complimented for having the most accurate picture of invidual player performance available. We're not depending upon memory from watching the game live and the highlight reel that your mind naturally puts together, we're recording everything and as a result we get a different picture that we believe is more accurate. Good is not the enemy of perfect, we aren't attaining perfection, we don't claim to be attaining perfection, that's no reason not to view it as good, accurate and extremely useful as many NFL players, teams, agents and media outlets have.

[UKRavenGordon]

Please show me anything, anywhere that has indicated that any of those guys I named performed at even an AVERAGE level last year, nevermind the top ten and in some cases top five levels that PFF has them graded.



I'll switch that on you. Show me somewhere that indicates any of them to be less than average.

[jonboy79]

Gotta disagree on the higher upside. Gaither is an absolute man child. He has the potential to be the best LT in the league. Oher I think has the potential to be a very good LT, but an even better RT - seems to suit his mentality better.

This is my mindset.
Gaither can be anywhere from an average to Elite LT. He will probably be an unhappy, average RT,
Oher can be anywhere from average to very good LT, or one of the best RT's in football.
IF the switch remains permanent, I think we got worse at both spots, at least int he short run.

[jonboy79]

Sideline broadcast video, means the occassional missed play but extremely rare.



Executed (as seen from the video), not called.



See above.



Yes.



Nope, each plays is graded equally, we grade on a player vs player, play by play basis, quality of opposition comes out in the wash and allows folks to look into the grading and grade composition (by game) to draw their own conclusions from it.

IT sounds like someone COULD design and execute a better system. It's too bad no one has or likely will. THe man hours simply get out of hand if you take into consideration every variable. Sounds like we can take this as an educated guess. If someone were willing to implement their own system that rated openents and the like, I'd be very curious in the results. Until then, I will have to get what I can from Filmstudy and PFF... As well as Football outsiders at other positions.

[jonboy79]

You meant objective, not subjective, I would hope at least...

Let's not pretend that you have. PFF run by a Ravens fan is arguable whether it's objective or not but I've already pointed out the flaws in the grading system. Want another for good measure? One dominant player can increase the effectiveness of all the other players at the position. Witness Thomas in Cleveland. Every one of Cleveland's OL except one ranks in the top half of players at their position, and the one that doesn't is almost there at #36? ORLY??? This was - outside of Thomas - one of the worst OLs in the NFL by pretty much any objective measure. So your singular source is, to put it mildly, highly questionable.

And largely any individual analysis on Gaither doesn't particularly exist. But what I've given plenty of is the anecdotal evidence of his value. The Ravens have been sniffing around for trade offers since March, and no one's come even close to biting on him. This, one year after the Eagles paid a ransom and then some to get Peters, a guy that is consistently dumped on as overrated and mediocre at best on this board. The freakin' Cowboys just traded to get a cast-off to patch their line, and word I've heard is that they didn't even bother calling to inquire about Gaither.

I've pointed out at least one overall objective and quantitative analysis (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol) of the Ravens play on the left side of the OL. Nothing like a fat (phat) #15/#17 rushing off left tackle / left end to bolster your argument that Gaither's one of the best in the NFL. Or maybe you would counter that Oher was SO bad on the left side that in five games he dragged our ranking down there out of the top five...

But it doesn't matter, I don't even need analysis to make my argument. All the evidence you need is right there in front of you in the form of deafening silence regarding Gaither being traded, and the Ravens coaching staff moving Gaither over to the right side in favor of a second year player. Tout the "they've never been wrong???" argument all you want...you're out of your mind if you think I'm buying your "analysis" of who the best LT on this team is over actual, legitimate professionals that not only have years of experience evaluating these things, but the time spent with each player in practice to see who's better and who's not.

- C -

Does your site include defense played against, TE and FB positioning and the like? Didn't you cahrt for them? You seem to have an apparent bias towards Oher... Why am I supposed to buy this? And not PFF's numbers that nearly mirror Filmstudy's? 2 entirely seperate entities, similar results?

[psuasskicker]

I've addressed replies regarding PFF in a new thread, which should make things easier to search for in the future. Why don't we move this discussion here (click me!) (http://www.profootball24x7.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53915) and allow this thread to get back to its original subject...

- C -

[Lee Van Cleef]

I've addressed replies regarding PFF in a new thread, which should make things easier to search for in the future. Why don't we move this discussion here (click me!) (http://www.profootball24x7.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53915) and allow this thread to get back to its original subject...

- C -

Well for one thing it's the same discussion we've been having since the off-season began and nothing new is being said. Would make a lot more sense for everyone to stop repeating themselves and drop it.

[Gwaihir]

Well for one thing it's the same discussion we've been having since the off-season began and nothing new is being said. Would make a lot more sense for everyone to stop repeating themselves and drop it.

That's exactly how I feel!! I saw with my own eyes in week 5 & 6, against Cincy & Minnesota, with Oher playing Left Tackle, and Joe Getting The Living Shit Beat Out Of Him!!! He was never the same after those two weeks, and I believe that cost us a deep run in the PlayOffs!

Noone will ever convince me Oher is a better LT than Gaither! Even when Joe wasn't getting sacked, He Was Still Getting The Living Snot Knocked Out Of Him Every Passing Play! Watch the Tape!

The Ravens are a far better team with Gaither at LT and Oher at RT. Which is why I didn't believe any of the so-called Trade Talk, and don't believe they're switching them now! The Ravens are smart, and all they are trying to do is light a fire under Gaither's ass to see if they can motivate him or not! He may be gone in 2011, but he'll be playing LT in 2010!

[Lee Van Cleef]

That's one side of it yeah.

The problem with this kind of debate which will likely see no resolution is it's just going to further polarise each side and get extremely tedious (well it already did that). I realise it is the off-season and we all need something to yammer on about but haven't we done all this now? At the very least we could keep it all to one "Mega-Gaither" thread.

[Dave Lap]

That's exactly how I feel!! I saw with my own eyes in week 5 & 6, against Cincy & Minnesota, with Oher playing Left Tackle, and Joe Getting The Living Shit Beat Out Of Him!!! He was never the same after those two weeks, and I believe that cost us a deep run in the PlayOffs!

Noone will ever convince me Oher is a better LT than Gaither! Even when Joe wasn't getting sacked, He Was Still Getting The Living Snot Knocked Out Of Him Every Passing Play! Watch the Tape!

!

Everyone gets beat now and then. I think you have to look at the whole season and not just a few games. BTW, some of the problems in Minnesota were the result of assignment mix ups. Not sure if you're counting those as Oher's fault or not.

I think we should all just wait for the regular season now and see how it unfolds. Like I said earlier no one has a lock on who is right on this topic but time should tell.

I'll say this: If I'm wrong and Oher doesn't turn out to be the better tackle I'll be glad to admit it. I think that a big part of being a good evaluator of talent is learning from mistakes. Everyone who scouts guys for the draft and projects how good rookies will turn out in the NFL makes mistakes.

We should review this topic at the end of the season. We've beaten it to death now and there is no more information available that will tip the scales one way or the other more than has already already presented.

[Jeremiah W]

Everyone gets beat now and then. I think you have to look at the whole season and not just a few games. BTW, some of the problems in Minnesota were the result of assignment mix ups. Not sure if you're counting those as Oher's fault or not.

I think we should all just wait for the regular season now and see how it unfolds. Like I said earlier no one has a lock on who is right on this topic but time should tell.

I'll say this: If I'm wrong and Oher doesn't turn out to be the better tackle I'll be glad to admit it. I think that a big part of being a good evaluator of talent is learning from mistakes. Everyone who scouts guys for the draft and projects how good rookies will turn out in the NFL makes mistakes.

We should review this topic at the end of the season. We've beaten it to death now and there is no more information available that will tip the scales one way or the other more than has already already presented.


What a great problem to have though. We have 2 guys that are already good and may become great players that can play LT or RT, TE or G or DL in a pinch.

If Gaither becomes a free agent or signs a new contract we will see what his value is, but hopefully he and Oher are on our OL for a long time.

I really think the difference in pay and importance between LT and RT is almost non existant in the modern NFL. DCs will just put the best pass rusher on your RT if the LT can handle him 1 on 1. If they can handle speed and not power there will be nothing but big guys in front of them. You can not hide your weak links on O as well as you used to be able to. I think the RT spot has been killing us for a decade. Those high powered Vinny T led attacks were behind a complete OL. That is how you get 5 eligibles out into the secondary and carve it up. When your front 5 are going to handle any 5 man rush for 3.5 seconds or so, guys will always be open or the QB will be able to get rid of the ball clean on time after going through almost all of his progressions confident he can get the same protection the next time and is less likley to force a throw.

OL and DL play is what it is all about. Can your 5 block our 4 for 3 seconds in the pass or can they get a hat on hat in the run game and hold or move the LOS? If there is a no there, it is going to be a long day for the QB and OC trying to cover that up. If the D has to bring 6 to get near the QB in 3 seconds or 8 in the box to keep you under 5 ypc, they are going to give up some big plays sooner or later. There is a lot more to it than that, but it is all built on the foundation of how strong you are up front and when you control the LOS you control the game.

Gaither is worth keeping at top 5 LT money, even if he is going to be our RT (doubt it) because we need an elite RT (and I think that is Oher) in order to keep Flacco clean and our O rolling. I am confident the FO can find quality back ups, but unless they can find a guy who can play RT as well as Oher, the OL would take a big step back instead of the big step foward that should make them the top OL in the NFL if they can find a way to keep Gaither, Grubbs and Yanda long term. To do that I think they need to extend 2 of them now before they become probowlers, but I would keep the tackles and replace the Gs if it came down to it.

[Dave Lap]

What a great problem to have though. We have 2 guys that are already good and may become great players that can play LT or RT, TE or G or DL in a pinch.

If Gaither becomes a free agent or signs a new contract we will see what his value is, but hopefully he and Oher are on our OL for a long time.

I really think the difference in pay and importance between LT and RT is almost non existant in the modern NFL. DCs will just put the best pass rusher on your RT if the LT can handle him 1 on 1. If they can handle speed and not power there will be nothing but big guys in front of them. You can not hide your weak links on O as well as you used to be able to. I think the RT spot has been killing us for a decade. Those high powered Vinny T led attacks were behind a complete OL. That is how you get 5 eligibles out into the secondary and carve it up. When your front 5 are going to handle any 5 man rush for 3.5 seconds or so, guys will always be open or the QB will be able to get rid of the ball clean on time after going through almost all of his progressions confident he can get the same protection the next time and is less likley to force a throw.

OL and DL play is what it is all about. Can your 5 block our 4 for 3 seconds in the pass or can they get a hat on hat in the run game and hold or move the LOS? If there is a no there, it is going to be a long day for the QB and OC trying to cover that up. If the D has to bring 6 to get near the QB in 3 seconds or 8 in the box to keep you under 5 ypc, they are going to give up some big plays sooner or later. There is a lot more to it than that, but it is all built on the foundation of how strong you are up front and when you control the LOS you control the game.

.

It IS a great problem to have and I agree that we should try and keep Gaither. I get the feeling that Ozzie would rather suffer a bit with a lesser paid guy in that position and use the funds elsewhere but I've always loved having a top notch offensive line. As you pointed out in your post-they can do soooo much for the offense.

I also think that it takes at least 2-3 seasons of having a core group of offensive lineman playing together to reach their potential. They are at that point right now in terms of experience with each other that they could very well take the next step and become an elite line. It's so much about teamwork, experience and timing on the O-Line. Losing Gaither at this point could take us back a step, not only in personnel but in that vital teamwork aspect.

[psuasskicker]

I saw with my own eyes in week 5 & 6, against Cincy & Minnesota, with Oher playing Left Tackle, and Joe Getting The Living Shit Beat Out Of Him!!!

So, to that end, you're talking about Oher going up against Jared Allen and Robert Gaethers. Allen is the $75MM man, and Gaethers is a solid player who had a sack on Flacco in week 9 when he was going up against Oher. FO has the Bengals and Vikings RDE position ranked #2 and #4 in the NFL. It's tough to say that Gaithers would have fared much better in those two games. He may have, he played better last year than Oher. But MUCH better? Not at all a given.

- C -

[Lee Van Cleef]

I don't know, maybe Gwaihir has a propensity for using excessive exclamation marks, but I thought he was being facetious.

[Gwaihir]

I don't know, maybe Gwaihir has a propensity for using excessive exclamation marks, but I thought he was being facetious.

:rolling:No, I'm afraid I have a "propensity for using excessive exclamation marks" ! I don't post that much, mostly just read, but when I do I'm usually pretty fired up!

[Lee Van Cleef]

Please forgive my flowery burst of verbosity and alliteration. I am in the process of elevating the value of my notions regarding the game of American football. I am cognisant of recently expressed revelations that the best format within which to declare one’s knowledge of the game of American Football is through a superior level of written English. I shall henceforth frame my arguments in a manner that shows that I am far more knowledgeable of the game than the other patrons of this website.

[UKRavenGordon]

Please forgive my flowery burst of verbosity and alliteration. I am in the process of elevating the value of my notions regarding the game of American football. I am cognisant of recently expressed revelations that the best format within which to declare one’s knowledge of the game of American Football is through a superior level of written English. I shall henceforth frame my arguments in a manner that shows that I am far more knowledgeable of the game than the other patrons of this website.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha! Brilliant!

[Lee Van Cleef]

I was being facetious, before anyone busts my chops.

[Jeremiah W]

:beer1:
Please forgive my flowery burst of verbosity and alliteration. I am in the process of elevating the value of my notions regarding the game of American football. I am cognisant of recently expressed revelations that the best format within which to declare one’s knowledge of the game of American Football is through a superior level of written English. I shall henceforth frame my arguments in a manner that shows that I am far more knowledgeable of the game than the other patrons of this website.

[Ravenswarrior19]

Please forgive my flowery burst of verbosity and alliteration. I am in the process of elevating the value of my notions regarding the game of American football. I am cognisant of recently expressed revelations that the best format within which to declare one’s knowledge of the game of American Football is through a superior level of written English. I shall henceforth frame my arguments in a manner that shows that I am far more knowledgeable of the game than the other patrons of this website.

And we have a winner for the Post of the Offseason Award
:respect:

[jonboy79]

Please forgive my flowery burst of verbosity and alliteration. I am in the process of elevating the value of my notions regarding the game of American football. I am cognisant of recently expressed revelations that the best format within which to declare one’s knowledge of the game of American Football is through a superior level of written English. I shall henceforth frame my arguments in a manner that shows that I am far more knowledgeable of the game than the other patrons of this website.

Maybe If I used spellcheck then Gaither would be regarded more highly then Lardarious Webb on this website.

[psuasskicker]

I was being facetious, before anyone busts my chops.

Why? It was funny.

- C -

[UKRavenStockers]

Please forgive my flowery burst of verbosity and alliteration. I am in the process of elevating the value of my notions regarding the game of American football. I am cognisant of recently expressed revelations that the best format within which to declare one’s knowledge of the game of American Football is through a superior level of written English. I shall henceforth frame my arguments in a manner that shows that I am far more knowledgeable of the game than the other patrons of this website.

This air of class is exactly why you're missed by the Norwich Devils! :D

[Lee Van Cleef]

Why? It was funny.

- C -

Because this is the internet. You can't count on everyone having a sense of humour.

[psuasskicker]

Wait a minute. Are you implying there are people like this here???

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/0/00/Internettoughguys.gif

I don't know that I can believe that. I thought this was all flowers and roses and sunshine!

[trailhiker85]

Because this is the internet. You can't count on everyone having a sense of humour.

You're right about that. As the picture in PSU's last post above indicates, there are folks who may take exception and bust your chops. (Hint: watch for clues such as lines like "there can be no argument about this!").

As for me, I rather enjoyed your post... :happy:

[Corey]

A couple of things:
1) It is not uncommon in Harbaugh's practices for players to move around, especially on the OL. Chester has taken snaps at C and G in the past. Yanda has taken snaps at C, G, and T in the past. David Hale and O'neil Cousins are also players that have taken snaps at multiple positions.

2) Gaither may be overrated by Ravens fans but so is Michael Oher. Oher is not a better LT prospect than Gaither and right now the Ravens are a better team with Gaither at LT and Oher at RT. The Ravens were 2-4 without Gaither, and one of those wins came against Detriot. We were 7-3 with Gaither. Thats a big disperity in the win/ loss column for you to be making the arguement that Oher is the better LT, right now.

3) There was an article on PFT a few months ago, that had Gaither rated as the 3rd best LT in football. There was also an article on this website that graded the Ravens offsensive line and it highlighted how poor Oher was on the left side. (When I get home, I'll go digging for the links) The point is its not just bias Ravens fans that believe Gaither is a very good young tackle. People who have sat down and anaylized the tape with the purpose of ranking all the starting lineman in the league agree.

LMAO. To think I got flammed for saying this. Doesnt seem so far fetched now does it?

[Raveninwoodlawn]

LMAO. To think I got flammed for saying this. Doesnt seem so far fetched now does it?

I was right there with you.

Some of the arguments for why Oher was a better prospect looking back are/were comical...based on draft position and these stupid head games the coaches tried to play with him.

The coaches screwed themselves by trying to be cute...they basically did the Shannahan move on him and fucked themselves over because it's obvious that they were downgrading the LT spot.

[Corey]

I was right there with you.

Some of the arguments for why Oher was a better prospect looking back are/were comical...based on draft position and these stupid head games the coaches tried to play with him.

The coaches screwed themselves by trying to be cute...they basically did the Shannahan move on him and fucked themselves over because it's obvious that they were downgrading the LT spot.

Harbaugh and company really botched that one. Gaither's absence is responsible for downgrading 3 positions on our offensive line, killing our depth at tackle, killed our run game, and almost led to the killing of Flacco.

[CRZA938]

Harbaugh and company really botched that one. Gaither's absence is responsible for downgrading 3 positions on our offensive line, killing our depth at tackle, killed our run game, and almost led to the killing of Flacco.

Wait, Harbaugh caused Gaither's back injury?

[Corey]

Wait, Harbaugh caused Gaither's back injury?

I think you can make a very good case that he did. I am no medical expert but all the articles I've read say the back injury was partially due to the massive amount of weight loss Gaither underwent.

Gaither dropped so much weight to force his way back to LT. After, here's where Harbaugh comes in, the coaching staff unjustifiably stripped him of that position and handed it to a much worse player.

[Carey]

I think you can make a very good case that he did. I am no medical expert but all the articles I've read say the back injury was partially due to the massive amount of weight loss Gaither underwent.

Gaither dropped so much weight to force his way back to LT. After, here's where Harbaugh comes in, the coaching staff unjustifiably stripped him of that position and handed it to a much worse player.

I thought the coaching staff was unhappy with the weight loss? Also i thought the demotion to RT had more to do with Gaither not showing up for offseason conditioning? Still dumb to move the better player of the 2 to RT but we dont know what caused the back injury, we also dont know if Oher would have stayed at LT because Gaither was unavailable this year.

[Corey]

I thought the coaching staff was unhappy with the weight loss? Also i thought the demotion to RT had more to do with Gaither not showing up for offseason conditioning? Still dumb to move the better player of the 2 to RT but we dont know what caused the back injury, we also dont know if Oher would have stayed at LT because Gaither was unavailable this year.

Yes and imo thats an unjustifiable demotion. They downgraded him because he didnt show up to voluntary workouts while he wasnt under contract.

[Carey]

Yes and imo thats an unjustifiable demotion. They downgraded him because he didnt show up to voluntary workouts while he wasnt under contract.

I agree to an extent, Gaither wasnt around long enough to outplay Oher and take the position back. From one standpoint i cant blame Harbs, LT is the QB's blindside, you want the guy with this type of burden to be 100% committed. We all know about Harbs perceived dog house but i dont think stubborn enough to keep Oher at LT if Gaither is healthy and playing well.

[jonboy79]

Harbaugh and company really botched that one. Gaither's absence is responsible for downgrading 3 positions on our offensive line, killing our depth at tackle, killed our run game, and almost led to the killing of Flacco.

I can't get over how much crap I got for predicting this result.

I place plenty of blame on the coaching staff. Publicly, they made it clear Gaither was not in the running for his own job. As we saw, Oher would have HANDED him the job my midseason at the leatest, favoritism be damned.... It was plainly obvious.


BUT, by that point they had a guy that jsut wanted to sit his contract out and reach FA to move onto greener pastures.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

I can't get over how much crap I got for predicting this result.

I place plenty of blame on the coaching staff. Publicly, they made it clear Gaither was not in the running for his own job. As we saw, Oher would have HANDED him the job my midseason at the leatest, favoritism be damned.... It was plainly obvious.


BUT, by that point they had a guy that jsut wanted to sit his contract out and reach FA to move onto greener pastures.

Agreed...I was right there with you.

[purplepoe]

Of course, having any semblance of depth at the tackle position would've helped out the entire situation.

Instead, Yanda was forced from his natural position and moved outside to RT creating a domino effect across the entire line.

How this organization didn't have at least ONE legit backup tackle behind Oher/Gaither is beyond me.

PP

[ActualSpamBot]

All Gaither had to do was go out and play. Worst case scenario for him? He would have been moved back to LT by week 8. Did Harbs overestimate Oher's ability to play LT? Apparently. But if Gaither had just manned the fuck up and taken his money to play RT he would have been put back eventually.

The Houston game in which Yanda played guard and Cousins played Tackle is proof that the coaching staff knew they needed to change the lineup. If Gaither had been there to play they probably would have pulled that trigger sooner and gotten exactly what he wanted.

If Gaither hadn't been such a prima dona he would be our LT right now, Oher would be our RT, and Yanda would be the best guard in football. Both parties messed up but Gaither was the one who took his ball and went home.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Of course, having any semblance of depth at the tackle position would've helped out the entire situation.

Instead, Yanda was forced from his natural position and moved outside to RT creating a domino effect across the entire line.

How this organization didn't have at least ONE legit backup tackle behind Oher/Gaither is beyond me.

PP

That too.

We had to read those BS articles about how good Cousins was and how we had "3 starting tackles"...and come to find out, Cousins wasn't even good enough to be the 3rd tackle when we went with the unbalanced line. He got passed by freaking Tony Moll...who was attrocious whenever we put him in.

If you are going to play the mind games, you need to have a legit backup plan.

[Jeremiah W]

I can't get over how much crap I got for predicting this result.

I place plenty of blame on the coaching staff. Publicly, they made it clear Gaither was not in the running for his own job. As we saw, Oher would have HANDED him the job my midseason at the leatest, favoritism be damned.... It was plainly obvious.


BUT, by that point they had a guy that jsut wanted to sit his contract out and reach FA to move onto greener pastures.

Most people who knew anything about football saw what kind of player Gaither was. What we still do not know is what was said behind closed doors or by the doctors.

When Gaither did suit up after his ankle injury or whatever, before the back injury, it was at LT. There was never any difinitve statement about the depth chart. Oher had to play LT because Gaither was not out there. I highly doubt that they would have swapped sides if both were healthy and at practice.

Sure there was some posturing going on in the media, both sides trying to gain some leverage with off the record rumours, but the results even before this year were clear that Gaither was the better LT, and the OL was at it's best (in years) as Gaither, Grubbs, Birk, Yanda, Oher.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Most people who knew anything about football saw what kind of player Gaither was. What we still do not know is what was said behind closed doors or by the doctors.

When Gaither did suit up after his ankle injury or whatever, before the back injury, it was at LT. There was never any difinitve statement about the depth chart. Oher had to play LT because Gaither was not out there. I highly doubt that they would have swapped sides if both were healthy and at practice.

Sure there was some posturing going on in the media, both sides trying to gain some leverage with off the record rumours, but the results even before this year were clear that Gaither was the better LT, and the OL was at it's best (in years) as Gaither, Grubbs, Birk, Yanda, Oher.

Huh? His first practices at minicamp and in training camp had him at RT. They switched them some in training camp for a day, but it was clear that their plans were to have Oher at LT and Gaither at RT.

[jonboy79]

Most people who knew anything about football saw what kind of player Gaither was. What we still do not know is what was said behind closed doors or by the doctors.

When Gaither did suit up after his ankle injury or whatever, before the back injury, it was at LT. There was never any difinitve statement about the depth chart. Oher had to play LT because Gaither was not out there. I highly doubt that they would have swapped sides if both were healthy and at practice.

Sure there was some posturing going on in the media, both sides trying to gain some leverage with off the record rumours, but the results even before this year were clear that Gaither was the better LT, and the OL was at it's best (in years) as Gaither, Grubbs, Birk, Yanda, Oher.

umm no.
Gaither doesn't go to voluntary workouts while not under contract.
Minicamp- Gaither didn't play LT at all, Harbs says the switch is "Potentially Permanent" his words, before Gaither was ever offerred a single snap at LT.
Gaither hurts foot/ankle
Gaither comes into camp down nearly 30 pounds
Gaither gets roughly 20% of LT snaps, Oher 60% or more. Gaither gets about half the RT snaps, Oher gets almost none.
Gaither hurts back, and basically never comes back. Statements were made by the coaching staff to the media that there was no competition. They made the switch before seeing either play at all this summer.

[Jeremiah W]

umm no.
Gaither doesn't go to voluntary workouts while not under contract.
Minicamp- Gaither didn't play LT at all, Harbs says the switch is "Potentially Permanent" his words, before Gaither was ever offerred a single snap at LT.
Gaither hurts foot/ankle
Gaither comes into camp down nearly 30 pounds
Gaither gets roughly 20% of LT snaps, Oher 60% or more. Gaither gets about half the RT snaps, Oher gets almost none.
Gaither hurts back, and basically never comes back. Statements were made by the coaching staff to the media that there was no competition. They made the switch before seeing either play at all this summer.

http://www.ravens24x7.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55660&highlight=Gaither+back+at+LT

"TL: Why has the team decided that Michael Oher is a better left tackle than Jared Gaither?

ED: I don't think the team has decided that Oher is a better fit at left tackle than Gaither. Training camp and the preseason games will determine that.

"
http://www.ravens24x7.com/columns/Interviews/Oher-not-necessarily-the-starting-left-tackle

There was a lot said and speculated about the situation, but not much of it was on the record. The fact is Gaither was not able to practice. Some speculated he was unwilling, but his doctor said he was unable. Maybe his doctor said what his agent told him to say, but I sort of doubt that a legit doctor would.

[jonboy79]

http://www.ravens24x7.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55660&highlight=Gaither+back+at+LT

"TL: Why has the team decided that Michael Oher is a better left tackle than Jared Gaither?

ED: I don't think the team has decided that Oher is a better fit at left tackle than Gaither. Training camp and the preseason games will determine that.

"
http://www.ravens24x7.com/columns/Interviews/Oher-not-necessarily-the-starting-left-tackle

There was a lot said and speculated about the situation, but not much of it was on the record. The fact is Gaither was not able to practice. Some speculated he was unwilling, but his doctor said he was unable. Maybe his doctor said what his agent told him to say, but I sort of doubt that a legit doctor would.

I respect Tony's opinion, but it is just that.

HARBAUGH SAID, in the press conference immediately following the first day of minicamp that the move was "potentially permanent". His words, exact words. Any speculation past that, is just that, but his statement said it all. (especially after the day of practice that jsut occurred with Oher only playing on the left and gaither only playing on the right.)

They made their decision before the season started. Could they have eventually changed their mind? I certainly hope so but it would have been jsut that, a change of mind, not a competition.

[Jeremiah W]

I respect Tony's opinion, but it is just that.

HARBAUGH SAID, in the press conference immediately following the first day of minicamp that the move was "potentially permanent". His words, exact words. Any speculation past that, is just that, but his statement said it all. (especially after the day of practice that jsut occurred with Oher only playing on the left and gaither only playing on the right.)

They made their decision before the season started. Could they have eventually changed their mind? I certainly hope so but it would have been jsut that, a change of mind, not a competition.

What does "potentially permanent" mean?

TL asked the question to Eric DeCosta, who disputed the notion that there was no competition.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Regardless...the first day of both camps, Gaither started at RT. First time he suited up...he started at RT. He took 70% of the snaps during his 3 days or so of practice at RT.

Actions speak louder than words...

[Corey]

I can't get over how much crap I got for predicting this result.

I place plenty of blame on the coaching staff. Publicly, they made it clear Gaither was not in the running for his own job. As we saw, Oher would have HANDED him the job my midseason at the leatest, favoritism be damned.... It was plainly obvious.


BUT, by that point they had a guy that jsut wanted to sit his contract out and reach FA to move onto greener pastures.

Yep. This was one of my first threads on this board and I took a lot of shit for it.

I called Oher overrated by Ravens fans and some folks went into a tail spin.

I pointed out the Ravens record with and without Gaither and it was dismissed as coincidental. I dont think its coincidence that our offense moved so much better last season when Gaither was on the field. And I believe had we had Gaither this season our offense would have overcome some of Cameron and Flacco's short comings.

But people brought into the propaganda coming out of the castle and convinced themselves that Oher was just as good if not better, despite what the tape said.

[B-more Ravor]

I respect Tony's opinion, but it is just that.

That wasn't Tony's opinion, that was a quote directly from Eric DeCosta.


HARBAUGH SAID, in the press conference immediately following the first day of minicamp that the move was "potentially permanent". His words, exact words. Any speculation past that, is just that, but his statement said it all. (especially after the day of practice that jsut occurred with Oher only playing on the left and gaither only playing on the right.)


"Potentially permanent" says it all? Really? Since when does "potentially" mean absolute?

Sorry, but IMO, had Gaither wised up and played and practiced hard - which is exactly what they were looking for - then he would have started at LT.

[purplepoe]

Sorry, but IMO, had Gaither wised up and played and practiced hard - which is exactly what they were looking for - then he would have started at LT.

I agree with this.

The whole idea was to try to get Gaither to snap into reality and start taking his job seriously.

Sadly, for everyone involved, that didn't happen.

The team and Gaither engaged in a standoff of sorts and it benefited nobody.

PP

[festivus]

This *still*???

Here's how I see it:

You guys who think the team screwed it up are guessing *way* more than you really know about what happened behind closed doors, both in terms of injury, contract negotiation, personal issues, and fitness to play.

You guys are assuming Gaither was at some point the man he'd been the year before. And I don't think he was. If he was the road grader you all think he was, he'd have been playing. The coaching staff is not as stupid as you apparently think.