Bills Fan here. Gaither from a Diff. perspective

[Bills Fan]

First of all, let me say that as a Bills fan who closely follows GM Buddy Nix, I am surprised that this trade rumor even exists. Even though it is being reported by many different places, which leads all of us to believe there is some truth to the rumor, I would not be shocked if it never came to fruition, and here's why:

1.) The type of player Gaither is. Buddy Nix and Chan Gailey have purged the roster of players that aren't work first guys. Bye bye to Terrell Owens, and Marshawn Lynch has had his foot out the door since the administration came in. They've brought in high character guys who put winning and the team first. All this talk on Gaither's attitude is the complete opposite of the type of player Buddy Nix favors, and quite frankly, some of the anecdotes I've read on this board about Gaither are quite alarming. He is not a fit with this staff.

2.) The type of contract Gaither would command. Buddy Nix is a straight shooter. The first thing he said regarding free agency when he came in was that he'll never sign a big named, high priced player. His philosophy is to sign middle to lower tiered guys and pay the big bucks to his own players who he knows can play. Gaither would command a large contract, and this would once again go the opposite way of everything Buddy Nix has said and done thus far.

3.) The compensation. Buddy Nix has been a scout his entire life. He's said time and time again that he builds through the draft and doesn't like to ever give away draft picks that he perceives to be like gold. Buddy had numerous trade offers on the table come draft time for players, and other picks, and he didn't pull the trigger because of how highly he views draft picks. He likes to keep all his picks, and then add some any way he can. Parting with a 2nd rounder for Gaither would be very, very surprising.


Either Buddy Nix has had a complete personality change, or the media and us fans are drastically over-valuing the situation. By that I mean the compensation. If the deal actually were completed, I would lean towards a 3rd or 4th rounder plus a DB. I believe this is entirely possible given the market this offseason. Santonio Holmes in the last year of his contract, plus a 4 game suspension, garnered a 5th round pick. Kirk Morrison of the Raiders, their leading tackler and leader on defense, also a restricted free agent like Gaither, went for a 4th I believe. During the draft, it was common knowledge that Gaither could be had for a 2nd and no one jumped at the chance. This leads me to believe that if Buddy is really interested in this deal, the pick would lie somewhere between a 3rd and 5th, and then possibly a player since he plays more of a premium position.

Also, if Buddy is actually interested, not only would that compensation not be what we all thought it might, but the contract Gaither would get would also follow that pattern. Nix is not going to pay a guy with attitude problems before he's even had the chance of having him on his own team and knowing the player would change and not be a distraction.

I've got to believe that either this deal is just flat out a rumor and there is no truth to it, or, if it is true, and a trade actually happens, the above compensation and/or contract is not as high as the media initially reported.

[Jeremiah W]

The Ravens should be able to get a 3rd round comp pick by just letting him walk eventually.

I do not see how it makes any sense to trade the guy for less than a 1st round pick because he is a LT, 24 with 28 starts.

[Bills Fan]

The Ravens should be able to get a 3rd round comp pick by just letting him walk eventually.

I do not see how it makes any sense to trade the guy for less than a 1st round pick because he is a LT, 24 with 28 starts.

Not guaranteed. In order for that to happen, you'd have to literally sign NO ONE in free agency next year. Even if the Ravens wanted to do that, there is no guarantee the compensation is a 3rd. Wasn't he picked in the 4th? Did he ever make the Pro Bowl? I don't believe he did. And also, what does he contribute to his new team? Those are all things that factor into the compensation pick and all things the Ravens would have no idea about beforehand.

[ravensnhokies]

I agree with you that it would most likely be a DB and a 4th, if anything at all. I think it really is our FO throwing out BS rumors to generate more interest b/c they were probably surprised that no one took the bait for a 2nd during the draft. Sure they probably have contacted the Bills about Gaither, whether they were interested or not. It is easy to misconstrue this in the press as interest, b/c everyone knows of the tenuous tackle situation in Buffalo. One thing I can say is that the Ravens do want to get rid of Gaither.

[Jeremiah W]

I agree with you that it would most likely be a DB and a 4th, if anything at all. I think it really is our FO throwing out BS rumors to generate more interest b/c they were probably surprised that no one took the bait for a 2nd during the draft. Sure they probably have contacted the Bills about Gaither, whether they were interested or not. It is easy to misconstrue this in the press as interest, b/c everyone knows of the tenuous tackle situation in Buffalo. One thing I can say is that the Ravens do want to get rid of Gaither.

How do you know they want to get rid of him? They seem to want to motivate him, but have not said he was available even. Of cours they never said he was not, but there is no fire sale going on. They hold his rights for 2.3M this year, and can most likle tender him a RFA again next year.

If he becomes a UFA and he can go to the highest bidder, his contract and impact on the tem he goes to with no LT should be enough to get us a 3rd round comp, especially since the Ravens are unlikley to bring in any UFAs. If not so be it, but there is no reason to give him away now. What do the Ravens need more, a starting tackle or a 4th round pick and a CB?

[Bills Fan]

How do you know they want to get rid of him? They seem to want to motivate him, but have not said he was available even. Of cours they never said he was not, but there is no fire sale going on. They hold his rights for 2.3M this year, and can most likle tender him a RFA again next year.

If he becomes a UFA and he can go to the highest bidder, his contract and impact on the tem he goes to with no LT should be enough to get us a 3rd round comp, especially since the Ravens are unlikley to bring in any UFAs. If not so be it, but there is no reason to give him away now. What do the Ravens need more, a starting tackle or a 4th round pick and a CB?

Well, judging by the Raven's behavior in not liking Gaither (trading up in the draft to select Michael Oher when they already had Gaither, Harbaugh trying to motivate Gaither through any means he can, the front office trying to move Gaither this offseason) and couple that with their extreme confidence in Cousins or someone else playing RT, I'd say they don't view losing Gaither as much of a concern.

If they can grab a DB, which I do think is a huge concern, I think they like that tradeoff as being able to help them THIS season.

Regardless of what the fans think, there is reason to believe the current coaches don't believe that Oher at LT and Cousins at RT is a concern.

[RavenScallywag]

Well, judging by the Raven's behavior in not liking Gaither (trading up in the draft to select Michael Oher when they already had Gaither, Harbaugh trying to motivate Gaither through any means he can, the front office trying to move Gaither this offseason) and couple that with their extreme confidence in Cousins or someone else playing RT, I'd say they don't view losing Gaither as much of a concern.

Grabbing Oher had VERY little to do with Gaither. Oher was a guy the Ravens expected to be gone in the top 10. When he fell beyond 20, I quite believe Ozzie Newsome could barely write the name down on the card, he was falling over himself with excitement. At the time, our RT was Willie Anderson, who apparently was getting ready to retire. RT had long been an issue with us, every RT we trotted out either sucked, or was only good in their contract year and walked for a bigger contract. So getting Oher appeared to be the endgame to finally solidfying our bookends. The Ravens behavior about not liking Gaither has been more geared to trying to get him more motivated. Until the offseason workouts started, there appeared to be no issues, but then all of a sudden, there was a report Gaither wasn't there and John Harbaugh started talking about how Gaither was only hurting himself. Speculation turned in stories about Ravens trying to move Gaither and Gaither not being there as a contract holdout. If the contract situation were to resolve itself, I think we'd be content with him as a Tackle.

All this talk about Cousins is baffling to me. I have no doubt the coaches, publically anyway, feel as comfortable playing Cousins at RT as they do playing Gaither at RT. Not sure if they are doing that as a negotiating ploy or motivational tool for Gaither, but from what we fans saw, Cousins is still a major liability. We Ravens fans remember a guy named Ethan Brooks, journeyman RT who came in here and earned the nickname "Turnstile", because that's about what he did as a RT. Guys just rolled past him. Cousins did good in run blocking, but was about as bad in pass blocking. Unless we're getting some good value back for Gaither, I don't see why we're signing on for another "journeyman" at RT

[Bills Fan]

Grabbing Oher had VERY little to do with Gaither. Oher was a guy the Ravens expected to be gone in the top 10. When he fell beyond 20, I quite believe Ozzie Newsome could barely write the name down on the card, he was falling over himself with excitement. At the time, our RT was Willie Anderson, who apparently was getting ready to retire. RT had long been an issue with us, every RT we trotted out either sucked, or was only good in their contract year and walked for a bigger contract. So getting Oher appeared to be the endgame to finally solidfying our bookends. The Ravens behavior about not liking Gaither has been more geared to trying to get him more motivated. Until the offseason workouts started, there appeared to be no issues, but then all of a sudden, there was a report Gaither wasn't there and John Harbaugh started talking about how Gaither was only hurting himself. Speculation turned in stories about Ravens trying to move Gaither and Gaither not being there as a contract holdout. If the contract situation were to resolve itself, I think we'd be content with him as a Tackle.

All this talk about Cousins is baffling to me. I have no doubt the coaches, publically anyway, feel as comfortable playing Cousins at RT as they do playing Gaither at RT. Not sure if they are doing that as a negotiating ploy or motivational tool for Gaither, but from what we fans saw, Cousins is still a major liability. We Ravens fans remember a guy named Ethan Brooks, journeyman RT who came in here and earned the nickname "Turnstile", because that's about what he did as a RT. Guys just rolled past him. Cousins did good in run blocking, but was about as bad in pass blocking. Unless we're getting some good value back for Gaither, I don't see why we're signing on for another "journeyman" at RT

Good post.

But which is worse in today's NFL, a journeyman RT or a journeyman starting CB(s)?

In a passing league, you've got to have good/great corners and safeties. You can hide an average RT with a TE or back helping. It's difficult to hide a bad secondary in today's NFL (with the exception of Ed Reed).

[RavenScallywag]

The issue is, at least in the eyes of the coaches, FO, and some of the fans, we HAVE our good starting CBs midway through this year...

Webb is a guy we expect to be something special. Unless that knee injury ruins him, he should get back to form by mid-season and provide a good physical presence opposite Foxworth. A lot of fans are not happy with Foxworth, but I think he was brought in to complement a tough, physical CB on the other side. Foxworth is quicker to match up with the faster, smaller WRs. He had a bit of a rough transition early on last year, but played well down the stretch. And Carr is decent as a nickel CB.

So really, you need a guy to be a spot starter for half a season to a full season. Then, he just needs to be a good nickel corner and spot starter. And to go back to your mention of being unable to hide good CBs, you can if you have a good pass rush. We've made some moves to upgrade our pass rush by bringing in Kindle, Art Jones, Cory Redding, and having Suggs here the whole offseason. So the hope is with a quicker pass rush, a QB won't have time to see our CBs breaking down in coverage.

That said, I don't want to trade away a chip like Gaither for a one year solution at CB. If we get a 3rd round pick, at least we can use that pick to grab a RT to groom.

[psuraven]

Bills fan: Here's the thing though. As soon as Gaither would walk on to the Bills playing field, he's your best offensive lineman. I'm looking at your roster...who's playing tackle for you this year? The Bills might have weakest group of tackles in the NFL.

[Flipping Birdie]

It's difficult to hide a bad secondary in today's NFL (with the exception of Ed Reed).

You should look up the stats from the second half of last year, as well as the DB performance in games Reed didn't play. The DBs weren't bad. In fact, then they actually were bad at the beginning of the season, many of the problems were attributable to Reed.

[The Fanatic]

Take this for what it's worth as it's from PFT....

Gaither injury minor, Trade is very likely (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/09/jared-gaithers-injury-is-minor-trade-is-very-likely/)

[AirFlacco]

Yes, the CBs were good in the 2d half last year and wait to you see them in the first half this year with Cody
plugging the middle and Kindle and Suggs getting in from the outside and Ray up the middle. They will be even better.

We had the #3 D overall at the end of the season and #1 D in the POs until
Indy and still gave up only 20 pts to Colts.

BTW, Gaither was taken in the 5th round of the Supplement Draft, not
the regular draft.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=ie7&q=jared+gaiither+taken+in+5th+round+of+supplemental+draft&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rlz=1I7TSNA_enUS357US357


The Fridge told Ozzie then that he would be a steal if he would improve
his work habits.

Yesterday he was a no show in practice. He was injured once again
as nagging injuries still plague him.

He missed about a 1/2 dozen games this year.

Thanks for the Bills perspective. Very insightful.

[Jeremiah W]

Gaither wants and deserves a new contract, the Ravens would rather pay him what they have to not what he wants.

His agent has done a good job of creating a buzz and potential trade market, but he was not able to get an offer sheet with the 1st round tender attached. Maybe the Ravens would have been willing to accept a 2nd round pick, maybe not, but since he did not sign his tender they could not trade him on draft day anyway.

So what is the motivation to trade him now? So his agent will shut up? BFD. Because he may hold out until the season starts? BFD we have depth that could use the reps more than he needs them anyway.

He has not given the impression that he does not want to be here or that even playing RT is a problem. It is not what position that you play so much that determines your value as it is the leverage you have to get one and how many teams are willing or able to pay you. Playing RT here for a year will not hurt his market value much. Stacey Andrews got paid by Philly when he shook loose from Cincy. He is now projected to be the RG taking over his brother's old spot, but he got more as a UFA than most get as RFAs or in an extention to an existing contract.

Gaither and his agent may want a trade and or a new contract, but why should the Ravens comply? How does it make sense for them?

[Rxdoxx]

But which is worse in today's NFL, a journeyman RT or a journeyman starting CB(s)?


Welcome to the board, and thank you for your well written insights, sure help to give us the other perspective as opposed to local mixed with talking head national media.
I quoted the above because I particullarly liked that question, no other reason.

When we are talking about how high our D was ranked, and how much improvement we saw as the season wore on, we are leaving something out that is easy to overlook.

We had lost Rex, Mattison had taken over as DC, and a number of us were wondering at what we were seeing on the field from the D. We were hearing, "its the same defense" but were having trouble fitting that into what we were seeing. Then there was a team meeting, memory tells me it was after week 6 (the painful Viking loss) and somewhere during the following bye week.

When they returned to the field, we saw a difference. Elements of Rex's old organized chaos were now obvious, and the secondary improved. We did see some more physical play out of them, but the improvement can be laid at the feet of what Ozzie has been saying when talking about this past draft, namely improved pass rush.

Our current secondary concerns have more to do with injuries than personell. There were those of us (myself included) who were dying for a CB to be added and we watched Ozzie solidify the front 7. Sure another CB in our back pocket would be nice, but I can't see us trading Gaither for anything resembling a journeyman.

(BTW- as much as we brag and take pride in finding LBs here like Bart Scott, you had a great find in undrafted Jabari Greer)

I've said in another thread here that I can's see us moving Gaither (who also isn't making waves ala Haynesworth) without us being tebowed by someone.
From what you have come in here and written, I can now see that we are not going to get anything close from Buffalo that Denver ponied up. And I again thank you, you sure helped my insight.

My understand of compensitory is dollars and production, not so much how found/acquired, using Adalius Thomas as a 6th rd example, so barring any balancing factors, we sure look to be lined up for a late 3rd rounder if that projects out as anticipated.

I am looking at things now as motivating him centered, not moving him regardless of what others like Adam S say. There is always the offer we can't refuse, but I now no longer see if coming from the Bills.

[B-more Ravor]

I've got to believe that either this deal is just flat out a rumor and there is no truth to it, or, if it is true, and a trade actually happens, the above compensation and/or contract is not as high as the media initially reported.

And, having closely followed Ozzie Newsome for 15 years now, I can pretty firmly say that he is not going to trade Gaither for less than what is being reported (if that is even enough). If he was, he would have done so during the draft, when he could have actually used the draft pick this year to help this year's team.

[B-more Ravor]

My understand of compensitory is dollars and production, not so much how found/acquired, using Adalius Thomas as a 6th rd example, so barring any balancing factors, we sure look to be lined up for a late 3rd rounder if that projects out as anticipated.


That is correct. The round in which a player was drafted is of zero consequence for Comp picks. The average yearly salary of the deal sets the round, which can decrease a round for lack of playing time (or injury) and increase for post season honors (pro bowl, DPOY, OPOY, MVP).

That said, they'd have to have a net loss of UFAs and they'd have to not offset the loss of Gaither by signing another at the same compensation level as Gaither.

[Bills Fan]

Bills fan: Here's the thing though. As soon as Gaither would walk on to the Bills playing field, he's your best offensive lineman. I'm looking at your roster...who's playing tackle for you this year? The Bills might have weakest group of tackles in the NFL.

I'm not sure what that means regarding our conversation.

[Bills Fan]

Gaither wants and deserves a new contract, the Ravens would rather pay him what they have to not what he wants.

His agent has done a good job of creating a buzz and potential trade market, but he was not able to get an offer sheet with the 1st round tender attached. Maybe the Ravens would have been willing to accept a 2nd round pick, maybe not, but since he did not sign his tender they could not trade him on draft day anyway.

So what is the motivation to trade him now? So his agent will shut up? BFD. Because he may hold out until the season starts? BFD we have depth that could use the reps more than he needs them anyway.

He has not given the impression that he does not want to be here or that even playing RT is a problem. It is not what position that you play so much that determines your value as it is the leverage you have to get one and how many teams are willing or able to pay you. Playing RT here for a year will not hurt his market value much. Stacey Andrews got paid by Philly when he shook loose from Cincy. He is now projected to be the RG taking over his brother's old spot, but he got more as a UFA than most get as RFAs or in an extention to an existing contract.

Gaither and his agent may want a trade and or a new contract, but why should the Ravens comply? How does it make sense for them?

It makes sense for a number of reasons. I don't believe the Ravens like Gaither enough to pay him big LT money to play the right side. If they don't like his work ethic now, do you think they'll want to give him a raise, while also demoting him?

So, if they're not going to pay him the going LT rate after the year, why not get something for him to improve the team this year, like a CB? You could let him walk after the year, and hope you get a 4th round compensation. But after a year of him playing right tackle, your comp status just took a nose dive. He would no longer be a LT, not to mention if he sulks because he got demoted, gets injured, holds out, or just decides to be a whiny nuissance. None of that "3rd round pick" compensation talk is guaranteed.

[Bills Fan]

Welcome to the board, and thank you for your well written insights, sure help to give us the other perspective as opposed to local mixed with talking head national media.
I quoted the above because I particullarly liked that question, no other reason.

When we are talking about how high our D was ranked, and how much improvement we saw as the season wore on, we are leaving something out that is easy to overlook.

We had lost Rex, Mattison had taken over as DC, and a number of us were wondering at what we were seeing on the field from the D. We were hearing, "its the same defense" but were having trouble fitting that into what we were seeing. Then there was a team meeting, memory tells me it was after week 6 (the painful Viking loss) and somewhere during the following bye week.

When they returned to the field, we saw a difference. Elements of Rex's old organized chaos were now obvious, and the secondary improved. We did see some more physical play out of them, but the improvement can be laid at the feet of what Ozzie has been saying when talking about this past draft, namely improved pass rush.

Our current secondary concerns have more to do with injuries than personell. There were those of us (myself included) who were dying for a CB to be added and we watched Ozzie solidify the front 7. Sure another CB in our back pocket would be nice, but I can't see us trading Gaither for anything resembling a journeyman.

(BTW- as much as we brag and take pride in finding LBs here like Bart Scott, you had a great find in undrafted Jabari Greer)

I've said in another thread here that I can's see us moving Gaither (who also isn't making waves ala Haynesworth) without us being tebowed by someone.
From what you have come in here and written, I can now see that we are not going to get anything close from Buffalo that Denver ponied up. And I again thank you, you sure helped my insight.

My understand of compensitory is dollars and production, not so much how found/acquired, using Adalius Thomas as a 6th rd example, so barring any balancing factors, we sure look to be lined up for a late 3rd rounder if that projects out as anticipated.

I am looking at things now as motivating him centered, not moving him regardless of what others like Adam S say. There is always the offer we can't refuse, but I now no longer see if coming from the Bills.

Thanks for the intelligent reply.

It appears that Nix and Ozzie are two old school GM's who won't be pressured into a bad deal. Another reason this trade might not happen.

[pyite32]

Thanks for the intelligent reply.

It appears that Nix and Ozzie are two old school GM's who won't be pressured into a bad deal. Another reason this trade might not happen.

This is the most likely scenario. Ozzie is holding all the cards right now when it comes to Gaither. We have 2 cornerbacks who performed admirably at the end of last year and while we need to pick up a guy or two for nickel/dime situations I don't think the team is in any way desperate. We have Gaither on the hook for at least one more year depending on what kind of CBA/Lockout etc gets worked out after this year. Oz has never seemed to be afraid of letting players walk.

Now if your GM is smart as you believe he is, he won't act out of desperation for a lineman. Unless he does there will be no deal.

[RustonRifle]

Tackles with the ability to play and do well on the left side don't grow on trees. Gaither has some issues but he's held his own against quality opponents, they don't get traded for backup corners and 4th round draft picks.

I'd rather see the Ravens keep him then give him away for marginal talent.

[Jeremiah W]

Tackles with the ability to play and do well on the left side don't grow on trees. Gaither has some issues but he's held his own against quality opponents, they don't get traded for backup corners and 4th round draft picks.

I'd rather see the Ravens keep him then give him away for marginal talent.

Exactly. Keeping for an extra year has a lot of value, and has been Oz's MO.

He tendered Jason Brown then let him walk. He let Bart and AD walk recently. Tony Pashos and Ovie Mughelli. He could have traded those guys in the last year of the contract or whatever, but did not. Why unload a guy on the cheap unless he is a problem or a criminal?

[Dave Lap]

Good post.

. It's difficult to hide a bad secondary in today's NFL (with the exception of Ed Reed).

Want to disagree slightly here. You CAN hide a bad secondary if you have a good pass rush. OTH, when you try to hide a bad RT by having the TE, or RB stay in, you sacrifice getting those guys out in the flats or the middle of the field to catch the ball.

[Dave Lap]

Tackles with the ability to play and do well on the left side don't grow on trees. Gaither has some issues but he's held his own against quality opponents, they don't get traded for backup corners and 4th round draft picks.

I'd rather see the Ravens keep him then give him away for marginal talent.

Agree completely.

[Bills Fan]

Want to disagree slightly here. You CAN hide a bad secondary if you have a good pass rush. OTH, when you try to hide a bad RT by having the TE, or RB stay in, you sacrifice getting those guys out in the flats or the middle of the field to catch the ball.

That's all fine and dandy in the regular season, where there's less of a chance you'll face a great QB each week. But that's the exact attitude that has been getting the Ravens beat year after year in the playoffs by Peyton Manning.

As the Jets proved last year, you can only blitz so much before great QBs are going to figure it out and pick you apart. You still need to have good corners. What did they do this offseason? Go and trade for Antonio Cromartie and draft a 1st round corner in Kyle Wilson and pair them with the best CB in the league (Revis).

The Ravens will continue to win regular season games at a clip, but unless you get some CBs that can shut down top wide receivers, you will continue to lose in the playoffs.

[pyite32]

That's all fine and dandy in the regular season, where there's less of a chance you'll face a great QB each week. But that's the exact attitude that has been getting the Ravens beat year after year in the playoffs by Peyton Manning.

As the Jets proved last year, you can only blitz so much before great QBs are going to figure it out and pick you apart. You still need to have good corners. What did they do this offseason? Go and trade for Antonio Cromartie and draft a 1st round corner in Kyle Wilson and pair them with the best CB in the league (Revis).

The Ravens will continue to win regular season games at a clip, but unless you get some CBs that can shut down top wide receivers, you will continue to lose in the playoffs.

In this case you are aguing against the trade from our side. I and also mgmt (I think) believe we have those corners on the team currently, just that they might be out for 6 weeks to start the season. If we get Webb and Washington back healthy for the second half and the playoffs the team will have those corners.

That is why I am against this trade unless it is for a top CB who could beat out Webb or Foxworth next year in Training camp. Otherwise it just throws another bench player on our team who will play until Webb and Washington are healthy to take over the #2 and #3 CB roles on the team.

[Dave Lap]

That's all fine and dandy in the regular season, where there's less of a chance you'll face a great QB each week. But that's the exact attitude that has been getting the Ravens beat year after year in the playoffs by Peyton Manning.

As the Jets proved last year, you can only blitz so much before great QBs are going to figure it out and pick you apart. You still need to have good corners. What did they do this offseason? Go and trade for Antonio Cromartie and draft a 1st round corner in Kyle Wilson and pair them with the best CB in the league (Revis).

The Ravens will continue to win regular season games at a clip, but unless you get some CBs that can shut down top wide receivers, you will continue to lose in the playoffs.

Your response sounds like I was saying the ravens don't need good corners. I was debunking your statement about how you can hide a poor RT but can't hide a poor secondary. That's just NOT an absolute truism in football.

As far as using the Jets as an example to prove your point-Rex's defenses always left the secondary vulnerable-to the extreme. You don't have to have a blitz at any cost mentality in order to pressure the QB.

I agree that we need more corners and better corner play than last year. However, making a broad statement like "unless you get some CBs that can shut down top wide receivers, you will continue to lose in the playoffs" is a very one dimensional way to look at things. A football team is more than just one position. For example, if our offense scores an average of 7 points a game more than last year would could be a way for us to win it all without a substantial improvement in our secondary. If the pass rush is better, that will help as well. If our time of possession on offense improves that will keep the ball out of the hands of the defense longer resulting in less points scored against us, etc. etc.

So, I agree that we need more corner talent and that it would help us a lot as a team, however I don't agree that the ONLY way to get to the big game is that route. If football were that simple and that predictable it would be a pretty unexciting, boring game wouldn't it?

[Lee Van Cleef]

That's all fine and dandy in the regular season, where there's less of a chance you'll face a great QB each week. But that's the exact attitude that has been getting the Ravens beat year after year in the playoffs by Peyton Manning.

As the Jets proved last year, you can only blitz so much before great QBs are going to figure it out and pick you apart. You still need to have good corners. What did they do this offseason? Go and trade for Antonio Cromartie and draft a 1st round corner in Kyle Wilson and pair them with the best CB in the league (Revis).

The Ravens will continue to win regular season games at a clip, but unless you get some CBs that can shut down top wide receivers, you will continue to lose in the playoffs.

Our main problem has been unsettling him in the pocket. We've lacked a set of good pass-rushers since 2006 (in that playoff game against the Colts we held them to a winnable score, our offence crapped out). If you want to bother Manning, like Brady, you have to get a good pass rush (particularly up the inside) that makes him move.

And the other thing, you need a pair of good tackles to keep Freeney and Mathis in check. Our offence has done zip against the Colts as far as TDs for years now.

2009 Season:
Playoffs - Lost 3-20 (0 TDs)
Week 11 - Lost 17-15 (0 TDs)

2008 Season:
Week 6 - Lost 3-31 (0 TDs)

2007 Season:
Week 14 - Lost 44-20 (2 offensive TDs, 1 KR TD)

2006 Season:
Playoff Game - Lost 15-6 (0 TDs)

5 Games in 4 seasons against the Colts and only 2 offensive TDs (which came in a season when we were pretty bad and defensively beat up). You can't play a Peyton Manning-led team and not get in the endzone, it's just not going to end well. Last season we held them to 17 and 20 points, which is good enough to challenge them. But the offence either couldn't get in (week 11) or plain got their asses handed to them (playoffs).

[baltimore_hokie]

That's all fine and dandy in the regular season, where there's less of a chance you'll face a great QB each week. But that's the exact attitude that has been getting the Ravens beat year after year in the playoffs by Peyton Manning.

As the Jets proved last year, you can only blitz so much before great QBs are going to figure it out and pick you apart. You still need to have good corners. What did they do this offseason? Go and trade for Antonio Cromartie and draft a 1st round corner in Kyle Wilson and pair them with the best CB in the league (Revis).

The Ravens will continue to win regular season games at a clip, but unless you get some CBs that can shut down top wide receivers, you will continue to lose in the playoffs.

Would you consider the Saints CB's anything better than average?

I know I wouldn't. Hell, they had C-Mac playing for them last year.

Our defense didn't let us down last year, even with the injuries in the secondary. The offense had to get better, and hopefully it has.

[jonboy79]

Not guaranteed. In order for that to happen, you'd have to literally sign NO ONE in free agency next year. Even if the Ravens wanted to do that, there is no guarantee the compensation is a 3rd. Wasn't he picked in the 4th? Did he ever make the Pro Bowl? I don't believe he did. And also, what does he contribute to his new team? Those are all things that factor into the compensation pick and all things the Ravens would have no idea about beforehand.

Not true at all. TO get a third, a few things would have to happen.
Gaither would have to sign one of the bigger free agent deals of the offseason(nto a stretch at all).
The Ravens would have to LOSE at least one more qualifying UFA then they gained. Cut players do not count either way.
The contract values of the players would balance each other out. As long as they had a net loss, and did not sign a player equal to Gaither's salary level, they would get a pick for him.

[RustonRifle]

That's all fine and dandy in the regular season, where there's less of a chance you'll face a great QB each week. But that's the exact attitude that has been getting the Ravens beat year after year in the playoffs by Peyton Manning.

As the Jets proved last year, you can only blitz so much before great QBs are going to figure it out and pick you apart. You still need to have good corners. What did they do this offseason? Go and trade for Antonio Cromartie and draft a 1st round corner in Kyle Wilson and pair them with the best CB in the league (Revis).

The Ravens will continue to win regular season games at a clip, but unless you get some CBs that can shut down top wide receivers, you will continue to lose in the playoffs.

So are you telling us AY is the answer?

[skip727]

Personally, I think this trade talk and the move to RT is intended to light a fire under Gaither. He had a motivation issue while at Maryland and it appears to have followed him to the NFL. I hope he stays because combined with Oher, the Ravens have bookend tackles that could become one of the better ones in the NFL......Of course this is just my opinion.

[Bills Fan]

Would you consider the Saints CB's anything better than average?
I know I wouldn't. Hell, they had C-Mac playing for them last year.

Our defense didn't let us down last year, even with the injuries in the secondary. The offense had to get better, and hopefully it has.

Absolutely I would.

[Bills Fan]

So are you telling us AY is the answer?

Not at all. There are 4 CB's on the Bills roster that could start for most teams, certainly the Ravens. They are Terrence McGee, Leodis McKelvin, Reggie Corner and Drayton Florence. Youboty has great talent, and when he's on the field, he's great, but that's his problem. He is injured, on average, about every 14 seconds.

The only real possibility I see for the Ravens to acquire and actually benefit from right away is Reggie Corner. The kid is an outstanding nickle corner, and more than holds his own on the outside. He's someone I could also see the Bills willing to part with, since they've got so much depth at the position. They wouldn't give away McGee or McKelvin, I don't know how interested the Ravens would be in Florence since he is a veteran, and I certainly know that anyone with half a brain wouldn't possibly rely on Youboty to come in and stay healthy.

If the Ravens could get Corner and a 3rd or higher, I'd say that is an outstanding trade for them, especially considering they aren't going to re-sign him anyway. Instead of getting a 3rd round comp (or so you hope), you get a higher 3rd rounder (by at least 20 picks) and a starting, young, CB.

[psuasskicker]

Not true at all. TO get a third, a few things would have to happen.
Gaither would have to sign one of the bigger free agent deals of the offseason(nto a stretch at all).
The Ravens would have to LOSE at least one more qualifying UFA then they gained. Cut players do not count either way.
The contract values of the players would balance each other out. As long as they had a net loss, and did not sign a player equal to Gaither's salary level, they would get a pick for him.

I don't know why you'd make the assumption that we wouldn't hire someone close to or equal to Gaither's value if we let him walk. We'd do that simply to get a pick at the end of the 3rd or 4th round?


Absolutely I would.

Meh. Greer certainly is above average...he was terrific last year. Other than that, their corners were all at or below average at best. They simply played in a scheme that hid their weaknesses. Great defensive schemes with a couple key players can make everyone look far better than they actually are (and vice versa). The Saints corners were largely below average everywhere but their #1, but their secondary as a whole played as one of the best units in the league.

- C -

[B-more Ravor]

There are 4 CB's on the Bills roster that could start for most teams, certainly the Ravens. They are Terrence McGee, Leodis McKelvin, Reggie Corner and Drayton Florence.

Would that be Drayton Florence, who was a monumental bust in Jax last year?

The guy who was just a FA? The guy the Ravens showed no interest in when he was just a FA?

Sorry, not seeing that one.

BTW, do you realize that the Ravens pass D was actually pretty good last year? I realize the Bills pass D was very good, but I think you are perhaps underestimating the Ravens pass D a bit.

[Bills Fan]

Would that be Drayton Florence, who was a monumental bust in Jax last year?

The guy who was just a FA? The guy the Ravens showed no interest in when he was just a FA?

Sorry, not seeing that one.

BTW, do you realize that the Ravens pass D was actually pretty good last year? I realize the Bills pass D was very good, but I think you are perhaps underestimating the Ravens pass D a bit.

The guy has been very good every year he played except for one in Jacksonville. He started for us all last year when McKelvin was out and was outstanding. I don't know what you're looking for. You can't possibly try to argue he isn't good.

[jonboy79]

I don't know why you'd make the assumption that we wouldn't hire someone close to or equal to Gaither's value if we let him walk. We'd do that simply to get a pick at the end of the 3rd or 4th round?


- C -

Because that is par for the course here in Bmore. we don't sign$40m FA's and we collect comp picks.

[psuasskicker]

Because that is par for the course here in Bmore. we don't sign$40m FA's and we collect comp picks.

Anquan Boldin, Matt Birk, Willis McGahee, Derrick Mason, Trevor Pryce and Dominique Foxworth would argue otherwise.

- C -

[jonboy79]

Anquan Boldin, Matt Birk, Willis McGahee, Derrick Mason, Trevor Pryce and Dominique Foxworth would argue otherwise.

- C -

You named one $40m deal...

[B-more Ravor]

The guy has been very good every year he played except for one in Jacksonville. He started for us all last year when McKelvin was out and was outstanding. I don't know what you're looking for. You can't possibly try to argue he isn't good.

OK, fair enough. I don't think Florence was that great in SD, I'll take your word for it that he played well last year (and the Bills' pass D was very good).

But, you still seem to be missing the fact that the Ravens pass D was pretty good also. It was certainly weaker than the run D, but still finished pretty highly rated.

[psuasskicker]

You named one $40m deal...

You're making a completely false assumption that it has to be a $40MM deal for us to lose out on the comp pick. Birk and Foxworth who received a combined $40MM in compensation negated our loss of Brown and Bart Scott who received a combined $77.5MM in compensation. I don't remember if our second 5th round pick was a comp pick or not, but that was at MOST what we got.

C'mon dude, you're smarter than this. A guy doesn't need to get a $40MM deal to rip the life out of a comp pick, and there's absolutely no factual basis to the argument that if we allow Gaither to walk, we will specifically not sign anyone to a healthy deal so that we receive our comp pick. It's in fact FAR more likely we DO sign someone in his place.

- C -

[jonboy79]

You're making a completely false assumption that it has to be a $40MM deal for us to lose out on the comp pick. Birk and Foxworth who received a combined $40MM in compensation negated our loss of Brown and Bart Scott who received a combined $77.5MM in compensation. I don't remember if our second 5th round pick was a comp pick or not, but that was at MOST what we got.

C'mon dude, you're smarter than this. A guy doesn't need to get a $40MM deal to rip the life out of a comp pick, and there's absolutely no factual basis to the argument that if we allow Gaither to walk, we will specifically not sign anyone to a healthy deal so that we receive our comp pick. It's in fact FAR more likely we DO sign someone in his place.

- C -

That's because we gained as many as we lost, therefore contract value is immaterial.
LJ Smith cost us a third round pick last year, for example(well, in this draft).

You should probably research these kind of things a bit before you rip someone.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

That's all fine and dandy in the regular season, where there's less of a chance you'll face a great QB each week. But that's the exact attitude that has been getting the Ravens beat year after year in the playoffs by Peyton Manning.

As the Jets proved last year, you can only blitz so much before great QBs are going to figure it out and pick you apart. You still need to have good corners. What did they do this offseason? Go and trade for Antonio Cromartie and draft a 1st round corner in Kyle Wilson and pair them with the best CB in the league (Revis).

The Ravens will continue to win regular season games at a clip, but unless you get some CBs that can shut down top wide receivers, you will continue to lose in the playoffs.

The last 5 Super Bowl champions are...

Saints
Steelers
Giants
Colts
Steelers

Can you name the shutdown CB's in that group? Hell, without looking it up, can you name more than of the starters for those teams?

This 'you have to have a shutdown CB' stuff is a myth. They are great to have, but not a necessity.

You need competent CB play, but let's not go overboard here. I cannot a remember a playoff game that we lost because of corner play.

Reggie Corner is not going to be the answer for any percieved CB issues.

There just is not going to be a match out there. I have no problem keeping him and losing him next year. Trading him for Corner, weakining the side of the ball where we need the most help, and then having Corner potentially be a nickle/dime back a couple weeks into the season makes absolutely no sense to me.

If the Bills really want him they need to offer more. A nickleback and a 3rd round pick is not the going rate for a starting OT. There certainly is no garuntee that they are going to outbid anyone for Gaithers services if they think they "will just sign him next year". If they don't, then they don't. It's ok and both teams will move on.

[jonboy79]

For the trade to work, it's pretty much McKelvin or bust...

[Bills Fan]

For the trade to work, it's pretty much McKelvin or bust...

:laugh:

[Bills Fan]

The last 5 Super Bowl champions are...

Saints
Steelers
Giants
Colts
Steelers

Can you name the shutdown CB's in that group?



I don't need to. Those teams don't get beat by Peyton Manning year after year in the playoffs. The Ravens have almost everything. The Ravens have a great running game, should have an explosive passing attack this year, great run defense, but lack in the pass defense. All I'm saying is, if you want to improve past having a great record in the regular season and losing in the playoffs to Peyton Manning, the one portion of the team that really could use an upgrade is the pass defense.

In my opinion, the Ravens are a top 5 team in the league this year. Should be fun to watch for you guys. But why not go all in and improve the one weakness on the team? Why not go for the Super Bowl this year? Sure, it is certainly possible the Ravens don't upgrade the secondary and still win it all. But if you're Ozzie, why just hope for the best? If they really believe in Cousins and Oher (which all indications point to that being the case), why not get a corner for the guy you're going to lose anyway?

Some people are trying to make the point that starting young LT's don't get traded for decent cornerbacks and 2nd-3rd round draft picks. To that, I'd say you're absolutely correct. The reason this situation is different from that is because of certain variables.

1.) Gaither is not some LT that is planted on your roster for the next 10 years like the above scenario would seem to assume. Hell, he's not even your LT as we speak. If Gaither isn't moved, he's going into the year as your RT, and is off the team next year. He is gone after the year and everyone knows that. This is not about trading your young, franchise LT. It is about getting something for a RT that is leaving after the season and is someone who doesn't fit well with the team's ideal character. Judging by the actions of the coaches and GM, Gaither is a pain in the ass. So please leave out the "young franchise LT" talk.

[bmorebirds_24]

1.) Gaither is not some LT that is planted on your roster for the next 10 years like the above scenario would seem to assume. Hell, he's not even your LT as we speak. If Gaither isn't moved, he's going into the year as your RT, and is off the team next year. He is gone after the year and everyone knows that. This is not about trading your young, franchise LT. It is about getting something for a RT that is leaving after the season and is someone who doesn't fit well with the team's ideal character. Judging by the actions of the coaches and GM, Gaither is a pain in the ass. So please leave out the "young franchise LT" talk.


While I think you make good points, my thing is that I think the Ravens and Ozzie believe they can win it all this year. I also think a lot of their motive is knowing timeis running out for players such as Ray, Reed, Pryce...that's to name a few.


I personaly think we can win with a much improved pass rush. I think they take their chances with losing Gaither after this season and ride with the idea he will be a egit RT that helps us get to the Super Bowl.

[Dave Lap]

. But why not go all in and improve the one weakness on the team? Why not go for the Super Bowl this year? Sure, it is certainly possible the Ravens don't upgrade the secondary and still win it all. But if you're Ozzie, why just hope for the best? If they really believe in Cousins and Oher (which all indications point to that being the case), why not get a corner for the guy you're going to lose anyway?

Some people are trying to make the point that starting young LT's don't get traded for decent cornerbacks and 2nd-3rd round draft picks. To that, I'd say you're absolutely correct. The reason this situation is different from that is because of certain variables.

1.) Gaither is not some LT that is planted on your roster for the next 10 years like the above scenario would seem to assume. Hell, he's not even your LT as we speak. If Gaither isn't moved, he's going into the year as your RT, and is off the team next year. He is gone after the year and everyone knows that. This is not about trading your young, franchise LT. It is about getting something for a RT that is leaving after the season and is someone who doesn't fit well with the team's ideal character. Judging by the actions of the coaches and GM, Gaither is a pain in the ass. So please leave out the "young franchise LT" talk.


You talk as if the Ravens have no idea that the weakest spot on the team is at the corner positions. I think they know that.....they'll fill the need in a way that is cost effective and just plain effective. If they can't they won't panic and overpay for someone.

Gaither could be a young franchise tackle for someone...who's willing to pay the price. The bottom line is that the market will dictate Gaithers value and IF the Ravens are really trying to trade him they will take the best offer that they think is fair.

Ozzie's philosophy is "right player, right price". He's not going to mortgage the future of the team, even a little, in order to fill the CB need so that we can make a big push to win now.

He's more a believer in fielding a comptetitive team that makes it to the playoffs as many years as possible without overpaying or making bad trades that cost the team.

I've heard him make statements to this effect over the years in press conferences and interviews and his player personnel moves consistently demonstrate it.

Not disagreeing with everything you're saying-just commenting on how I think it will be handled based on my years in Baltimore.

[psuasskicker]

That's because we gained as many as we lost, therefore contract value is immaterial.

A) No it's not. It's a widely known fact that while gaining one after losing one, you may not get the full value you'd have gotten, if there is a significant difference in the value of the player, you will still be awarded a pick.

B) Do you even listen to yourself? You're arguing my point for me. That, or you're arguing against your original point. Who cares if we sign $40MM players from other teams or not if you really believe lose-one-gain-one offsets (which it doesn't)?

Feel free to continue talking yourself in circles...

- C -

[Bills Fan]

You talk as if the Ravens have no idea that the weakest spot on the team is at the corner positions. I think they know that.....they'll fill the need in a way that is cost effective and just plain effective. If they can't they won't panic and overpay for someone.

Gaither could be a young franchise tackle for someone...who's willing to pay the price. The bottom line is that the market will dictate Gaithers value and IF the Ravens are really trying to trade him they will take the best offer that they think is fair.

Ozzie's philosophy is "right player, right price". He's not going to mortgage the future of the team, even a little, in order to fill the CB need so that we can make a big push to win now.

He's more a believer in fielding a comptetitive team that makes it to the playoffs as many years as possible without overpaying or making bad trades that cost the team.

I've heard him make statements to this effect over the years in press conferences and interviews and his player personnel moves consistently demonstrate it.

Not disagreeing with everything you're saying-just commenting on how I think it will be handled based on my years in Baltimore.

How is adding a young CB and a top draft pick mortgaging the future? It's the total opposite.

You're talking as if trading Gaither for a good CB and early round pick is not a fair value trade. If you want to talk trading Gaither for below what he's worth, then I agree with your post completely. The last thing the Ravens, or any club, should do is trade someone off their team in a panic move and not get value back. I'm not advocating they do that. I'm trying to make the argument that it is fair value, and that it benefits your team.

[B-more Ravor]

I don't need to. Those teams don't get beat by Peyton Manning year after year in the playoffs.

Actually, the Ravens troubles with the Colts have more to do with the Ravens' offense's inability to get by the Colts' D than anything to do with Manning.

Last year, in the 15 regular season games (against teams other than the Ravens), the Colts averaged 26.6 points per game. Against the Ravens, the Colts scored 17 in the regular season and 20 in the playoffs. Manning's QB rating in both games was less than his season rating.

Oh, and the 39.6 QB rating that he put up against the Ravens in the 2006 playoffs didn't exactly win the game for the Colts. The Colts only scored 15 that day (zero TDs!). The Colts D held the Ravens to 6.

Again, I'll say that - while not great, the Ravens pass D is solid enough (6th lowest opponents' QB rating) - and a better pass rush will help.

OTOH, moving Gaither will leave a more sizeable hole at OT, with no great back-up option. Sorry, but the Ravens aren't likely to move Gaither just for the sake of moving him and I doubt the value that you seem to think is fair would be of any interest to them. Simply put, they are a better team as presently constituted then they would be if the make that trade.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

I don't need to. Those teams don't get beat by Peyton Manning year after year in the playoffs. The Ravens have almost everything. The Ravens have a great running game, should have an explosive passing attack this year, great run defense, but lack in the pass defense. All I'm saying is, if you want to improve past having a great record in the regular season and losing in the playoffs to Peyton Manning, the one portion of the team that really could use an upgrade is the pass defense.

In my opinion, the Ravens are a top 5 team in the league this year. Should be fun to watch for you guys. But why not go all in and improve the one weakness on the team? Why not go for the Super Bowl this year? Sure, it is certainly possible the Ravens don't upgrade the secondary and still win it all. But if you're Ozzie, why just hope for the best? If they really believe in Cousins and Oher (which all indications point to that being the case), why not get a corner for the guy you're going to lose anyway?

Some people are trying to make the point that starting young LT's don't get traded for decent cornerbacks and 2nd-3rd round draft picks. To that, I'd say you're absolutely correct. The reason this situation is different from that is because of certain variables.

1.) Gaither is not some LT that is planted on your roster for the next 10 years like the above scenario would seem to assume. Hell, he's not even your LT as we speak. If Gaither isn't moved, he's going into the year as your RT, and is off the team next year. He is gone after the year and everyone knows that. This is not about trading your young, franchise LT. It is about getting something for a RT that is leaving after the season and is someone who doesn't fit well with the team's ideal character. Judging by the actions of the coaches and GM, Gaither is a pain in the ass. So please leave out the "young franchise LT" talk.

LOL. Of course you don't need to because you can't. And that contradicts your earlier point about how you need CB's that shut down WR's.

We have played 14 playoff games since Manning has had the Colts a perennial contender in the NFL. We have lost to the Colts 2 times. That does not constitute losing to them "year after year". And even in those 2 games, guess how many touchdowns we have scored? You honestly are going to say that we lost those games because we missed a guy like Reggie Corner?

I can't believe you are trying to make a difference in this team making the Super Bowl is downgrading your starting OT's and adding a nickle/dime back. Again, Corner is no better IMHO than our top 3 CB's and maybe even our 4th. Our CB issue is not a matter of a total lack of talent. We just have a couple guys hurt. Washington will be back during Camp and Webb may be ready around the beginning of the season.

We are a better team with Gaither and no Corner than we are without Gaither and Corner. So in that regard, if we are going all out to win the Super Bowl this year, you keep Gaither and worry about next year next year. Hell, if there is a franchise tag available, use it and trade him then. If not, we'll say thanks for your service, and let him go like we have before...and teams like the Steelers and Colts have done for years.

FYI...Bill Belichick traded away Richard Seymour last year for a high pick. People loved it and came up with those "well he wasn't going to be here next year anyway" theories. That trade may have cost the Pats a chance at the Big Game last year (maybe we don't run all over them) and maybe this year as well. By the time they get that pick, their window may be close to closing.

[Dave Lap]

How is adding a young CB and a top draft pick mortgaging the future? It's the total opposite.

You're talking as if trading Gaither for a good CB and early round pick is not a fair value trade. If you want to talk trading Gaither for below what he's worth, then I agree with your post completely. The last thing the Ravens, or any club, should do is trade someone off their team in a panic move and not get value back. I'm not advocating they do that. I'm trying to make the argument that it is fair value, and that it benefits your team.

Yeah, IF the Ravens are trying to trade Gaither, and not just dangle him to establish market value for future salary negotiations, then we'll get (or already have) a good idea of what teams are willing to give up.

When talking about mortgaging the future-I'm just saying we'd have to get equal or better value back or OZ won't do it-that's all.

[Dave Lap]

LOL. Of course you don't need to because you can't. And that contradicts your earlier point about how you need CB's that shut down WR's.

We have played 14 playoff games since Manning has had the Colts a perennial contender in the NFL. We have lost to the Colts 2 times. That does not constitute losing to them "year after year". And even in those 2 games, guess how many touchdowns we have scored? You honestly are going to say that we lost those games because we missed a guy like Reggie Corner?

I can't believe you are trying to make a difference in this team making the Super Bowl is downgrading your starting OT's and adding a nickle/dime back. Again, Corner is no better IMHO than our top 3 CB's and maybe even our 4th. Our CB issue is not a matter of a total lack of talent. We just have a couple guys hurt. Washington will be back during Camp and Webb may be ready around the beginning of the season.

We are a better team with Gaither and no Corner than we are without Gaither and Corner. So in that regard, if we are going all out to win the Super Bowl this year, you keep Gaither and worry about next year next year. Hell, if there is a franchise tag available, use it and trade him then. If not, we'll say thanks for your service, and let him go like we have before...and teams like the Steelers and Colts have done for years.

.

Yep, we are better with Gaither and no new CB. Agree with the issue of facing the Colts too. Our offense has sucked big time against Indy because they play us to run first and dare us to pass. We have ended up being unable to do either. With our new receiving corps we should make big strides in this area this year.

But the main reason, by far, has been the inability of our offense to execute. Our CB play hurt us but not nearly as much. Then again, when does Manning NOT beat CB's?

[trailhiker85]

Yep, we are better with Gaither and no new CB. Agree with the issue of facing the Colts too. Our offense has sucked big time against Indy because they play us to run first and dare us to pass. We have ended up being unable to do either. With our new receiving corps we should make big strides in this area this year.



Absolutely correct as regards our troubles with Indy. Poor CB play hurt us in a number of regular season games, but has not been the reason we lose in the playoffs. For whatever reasons, Indy's defense always seems to excel against us. You know, if we'd had an Asomugha or a Revis playing for us at CB in last year's divisional playoff, guess what? We'd still have lost.

It's not that I don't have concerns about our corners; I do. Much of that, however, has to do with injury status of Washington and Webb. Well, that and Frank Walker's never-ending penalties.

I'd rather have a motivated Gaither than any of Buffalo's CBs. The 64 dollar question is ...can Gaither be motivated for us?

[psuasskicker]

It's worth noting we're better with a Gaither that plays at last year's levels (and is healthy for 16 games) than with a new corner. However if Gaither is Mr Disgruntled and plays circa McGahee 2008, that's not necessarily the case.

All depends on who shows up. And if the Ravens do decide to make a trade, it's easily arguable that we are not in fact better with Gaither than we are with whatever/whoever we wind up getting.

- C -

[Raveninwoodlawn]

It's worth noting we're better with a Gaither that plays at last year's levels (and is healthy for 16 games) than with a new corner. However if Gaither is Mr Disgruntled and plays circa McGahee 2008, that's not necessarily the case.

All depends on who shows up. And if the Ravens do decide to make a trade, it's easily arguable that we are not in fact better with Gaither than we are with whatever/whoever we wind up getting.

- C -

While that may be true, I'd take my chances keeping him as opposed to a guy like Reggie Corner and a mid round pick.

McGahee made some dumb statements to the press, but for the most part, I'm not going to knock his effort for the vast majority of the 2008 season. Also Gaither is up on a contract year whereas McGahee was kind of stuck in his deal.

I'd wait well into camp and maybe even into the season to make a judgement like that.

[RustonRifle]

The Ravens hold all the cards here, if Gaither sulks and doesn't play well he hurts his own value when he is eligible for free agency. In no way shape or form are the Ravens better if they trade Gaither for a third and Corner. Of course he instantly becomes the Bills best lineman and makes that team better.

[psuasskicker]

While that may be true, I'd take my chances keeping him as opposed to a guy like Reggie Corner and a mid round pick.

I agree with that.


McGahee made some dumb statements to the press, but for the most part, I'm not going to knock his effort for the vast majority of the 2008 season.

I don't agree with this. McGahee sucked donkey-balls in '08, especially given what we gave up to get him here. He was awful, and if not for his cap impact, probably should have been cut prior to last year. I still think he should be a candidate for getting cut prior to this season just given how much he costs and that there are no cap implications of shedding his salary.

- C-

[Raveninwoodlawn]

I agree with that.



I don't agree with this. McGahee sucked donkey-balls in '08, especially given what we gave up to get him here. He was awful, and if not for his cap impact, probably should have been cut prior to last year. I still think he should be a candidate for getting cut prior to this season just given how much he costs and that there are no cap implications of shedding his salary.

- C-

If you compare what he did to his salary and draft picks, then yes he was certainly not good.

But his final stats weren't awful...he had 3 100 yard games, was right around the league average in yards per carry at 3.9 and had 7 TD's.

Disapointing? Yes. Sucked Donkey Balls?...eh I don't think he was quite that bad.

[psuasskicker]

If you compare what he did to his salary and draft picks, then yes he was certainly not good.

But his final stats weren't awful...he had 3 100 yard games, was right around the league average in yards per carry at 3.9 and had 7 TD's.

Disapointing? Yes. Sucked Donkey Balls?...eh I don't think he was quite that bad.

Take away his 77 yard ridiculously terrible defense scamper against the Boyz at the end of the year and he averaged 3.5/carry. Three 100 yard games for a RB that cost us three draft picks and a $40MM contract? Yes, "sucked donkey balls" is not an inappropriate term to use...

- C -

[Bills Fan]

Take away his 77 yard ridiculously terrible defense scamper against the Boyz at the end of the year and he averaged 3.5/carry. Three 100 yard games for a RB that cost us three draft picks and a $40MM contract? Yes, "sucked donkey balls" is not an inappropriate term to use...

- C -

Bills fans were all joyously surprised when Ozzie gave us two 3rd round picks for that bum. Not typically an Ozzie move. Only problem was, Bills went and replaced that clown with another clown... Marshawn :insane:

[jonboy79]

A) No it's not. It's a widely known fact that while gaining one after losing one, you may not get the full value you'd have gotten, if there is a significant difference in the value of the player, you will still be awarded a pick.

B) Do you even listen to yourself? You're arguing my point for me. That, or you're arguing against your original point. Who cares if we sign $40MM players from other teams or not if you really believe lose-one-gain-one offsets (which it doesn't)?

Feel free to continue talking yourself in circles...

- C -

A. You are mostly wrong, a single, solitary 7th round pick is all that is available to teams that don't gain or lose in terms of total players.

B. Last year was one of 2 years in the history of the Ravens that it worked out like that. You act like it is par for the course, when what I suggest really is. Again, we lead the league in comp picks since the team's inception.

[jonboy79]

It's worth noting we're better with a Gaither that plays at last year's levels (and is healthy for 16 games) than with a new corner. However if Gaither is Mr Disgruntled and plays circa McGahee 2008, that's not necessarily the case.

All depends on who shows up. And if the Ravens do decide to make a trade, it's easily arguable that we are not in fact better with Gaither than we are with whatever/whoever we wind up getting.

- C -

At this point they should consider the likelyhood of holding out.

[B-more Ravor]

B. Last year was one of 2 years in the history of the Ravens that it worked out like that. You act like it is par for the course, when what I suggest really is. Again, we lead the league in comp picks since the team's inception.

That mainly has to do with two factors:

1. They draft well and have lost a lot of that talent over the years (and thankfully, for the most part, been able to replace it); and

2. Most of their bigger offseason acquisitions have been either by trade (Boldin, McGahee, McNair) or by signing players who have been released by other teams (Grbac, Searcy, Mason, Rolle, Pryce), so those additions don't count as gains in the Comp Pick formula.

[B-more Ravor]

At this point they should consider the likelyhood of holding out.

At which point, the Ravens have the option (as of June 15th) of pulling his tender (of $2.4M) and replace it with a tender of 110% of his 2009 salary of $460K. So, unless he wants to lose around $2M, I would think he'd be wise to sign and report.

Simply put, he's got ZERO leverage.

[jonboy79]

That mainly has to do with two factors:

1. They draft well and have lost a lot of that talent over the years (and thankfully, for the most part, been able to replace it); and

2. Most of their bigger offseason acquisitions have been either by trade (Boldin, McGahee, McNair) or by signing players who have been released by other teams (Grbac, Searcy, Mason, Rolle, Pryce), so those additions don't count as gains in the Comp Pick formula.

Absolutely my point thank you. Just becuase it happened this year, doesn't mean it is at all likely to happen in the future. The history of this team suggests thatlast year's confluence of events is not likely to occurr again soon.

[Ravenswarrior19]

At which point, the Ravens have the option (as of June 15th) of pulling his tender (of $2.4M) and replace it with a tender of 110% of his 2009 salary of $460K. So, unless he wants to lose around $2M, I would think he'd be wise to sign and report.

Simply put, he's got ZERO leverage.

I was just about to ask ...

Thanks for the preemptive answer. :happy:

[psuasskicker]

B. Last year was one of 2 years in the history of the Ravens that it worked out like that. You act like it is par for the course, when what I suggest really is. Again, we lead the league in comp picks since the team's inception.

So then make your point with more relevant evidence. Do we lead the league in 3rd and 4th round comp picks? Cause I don't particularly care if we've had a ton of late round comp picks. The argument centers around the Ravens allowing a guy valuable enough to garner a high comp pick to leave without replacing him with another FA. I don't care about all FAs that leave, I care about ones that do in this situation specifically.

So how many times have we let a big-name FA walk and NOT signed anyone in their place (do not count the cap purge years...there is a giant difference between not being able to sign a replacement due to cap constraints, and simply choosing not to sign one when you have no cap constraints)?

Once?

If it's been more than once, I don't remember, so you'll have to enlighten us.

- C -

[Raveninwoodlawn]

So then make your point with more relevant evidence. Do we lead the league in 3rd and 4th round comp picks? Cause I don't particularly care if we've had a ton of late round comp picks. The argument centers around the Ravens allowing a guy valuable enough to garner a high comp pick to leave without replacing him with another FA. I don't care about all FAs that leave, I care about ones that do in this situation specifically.

So how many times have we let a big-name FA walk and NOT signed anyone in their place (do not count the cap purge years...there is a giant difference between not being able to sign a replacement due to cap constraints, and simply choosing not to sign one when you have no cap constraints)?

Once?

If it's been more than once, I don't remember, so you'll have to enlighten us.

- C -

I remember us getting a couple when Hartwell and Baxter left (although we replaced Baxter with Rolle).

The total tally since 2003 is 1 3rd rounder and 5 4th rounders.

[jonboy79]

I remember us getting a couple when Hartwell and Baxter left (although we replaced Baxter with Rolle).

The total tally since 2003 is 1 3rd rounder and 5 4th rounders.

And again with Weaver and Kemo... That's recent memory, large hauls...

[rastaman831226]

You should look up the stats from the second half of last year, as well as the DB performance in games Reed didn't play. The DBs weren't bad. In fact, then they actually were bad at the beginning of the season, many of the problems were attributable to Reed.

Not so. The early problems of the secondary were directly attributed to DC Gregg Mattison's miscalculation that the front 4 in his base 4/3 scheme could supply the necessary pressure on opposing QB's-he was wrong. Gregg Mattison tried to turn what was traditionally one of the best 3/4 exotic blitzing defenses in the NFL into mayonnaise and the secondary was hung out to dry for it. It was not until 3/4 of the season did Mattison finally decide to reinstall the old rotating, angled blitzes of the previous years did the secondary look fairly decent. Fairly decent, that is against non elite teams. If the Ravens are to take the next step into elite team status, We're going to need a big experienced physical vet manning one of the corner spots. A healthy Fabian Washington is not the answer. It is my sincere hope that Ozzie will once again catch magic in a bottle by signing a post exhibition season CB contract dump ala Samari Rolle of a few years ago.

[psuasskicker]

Many of the problems of the secondary in the beginning of the year are all fan speculation. We can hypothesize about what went wrong, but none of us know the real cause of it.

- C -

[rastaman831226]

Many of the problems of the secondary in the beginning of the year are all fan speculation. We can hypothesize about what went wrong, but none of us know the real cause of it.

- C -

Not speculation. Early season Mattison Mayonnaise to late season Mattison Rex-Lite. Watch the tape.

[psuasskicker]

Say that all you want. Others will tell you Reed wasn't listening to the coaches and was freelancing out of position which killed the secondary. The tape - I was a game charter, I watched plenty of it - tells a story of certain guys missing certain plays at certain times. The how and why behind it, none of us are privy to.

- C -

[Corey]

That's all fine and dandy in the regular season, where there's less of a chance you'll face a great QB each week. But that's the exact attitude that has been getting the Ravens beat year after year in the playoffs by Peyton Manning.

As the Jets proved last year, you can only blitz so much before great QBs are going to figure it out and pick you apart. You still need to have good corners. What did they do this offseason? Go and trade for Antonio Cromartie and draft a 1st round corner in Kyle Wilson and pair them with the best CB in the league (Revis).

The Ravens will continue to win regular season games at a clip, but unless you get some CBs that can shut down top wide receivers, you will continue to lose in the playoffs.

It blows my mind that no one has pointed this out yet but in 2006, the Ravens had arguably the best CB tandem in the NFL. Chris McAlister was widely thought to be the 2nd best CB in the NFL behind only Champ Bailey. And our number 2, Samari Rolle , was a number 1 on most other teams. The thought that the Ravens need CB’s to beat Manning or that they have failed to win against him because of their CB’s is just wrong. They had one of the best tandem’s in all of football, held the Colts offense to 15 points and still lost. They need OFFENSE to beat Manning. In all of the losses that they have suffered to Manning, offense is the one thing that has consistently been missing. If your offense can only muster 9 points in two games, chances are you will not win and it doesn’t matter who the QB on the opposing team is. Trent Edwards or Brian Brohm could have QB’d the Colts in those two playoff games and the Ravens still wouldn’t have won.

[elland]

Not speculation. Early season Mattison Mayonnaise to late season Mattison Rex-Lite. Watch the tape.

Oh.. Last year we had the same CB-struggle just like in 2008. The difference was that our stars Suggs, Reed and Ngata played another game in 2008 and they were healthy! JJ was hurt too, in 2008 we had Bart.. Last season we started with Ayanbadeyo and out early, Gooden was not what we hoped for. Mattison did a good job and deserve some credit and please forget that overrated fatso, who btw also was DC for the two worst D seasons in the last decade 2005 and 2007.. even 2002 was fare better consider the circumstances.

[Dave Lap]

Regarding the post about a more Rex like defense in the second half of last year....

I don't remember seeing more blitz schemes in the second half of the season as compared to the first. I guess it's possible and I missed it.

Wonder if Film Study could chime in here?

[trailhiker85]

It blows my mind that no one has pointed this out yet but in 2006, the Ravens had arguably the best CB tandem in the NFL. Chris McAlister was widely thought to be the 2nd best CB in the NFL behind only Champ Bailey. And our number 2, Samari Rolle , was a number 1 on most other teams. The thought that the Ravens need CB’s to beat Manning or that they have failed to win against him because of their CB’s is just wrong. They had one of the best tandem’s in all of football, held the Colts offense to 15 points and still lost. They need OFFENSE to beat Manning.

True. I did make the point earlier in this thread that our loss to Manning & Co in the playoffs last year wasn't a result of poor CB play. But I hadn't thought back to '06 when we had CMac & Rolle. If anything, I think it strengthens the argument.

What you need to go deep in the playoffs is good balance and multidimensional capability. When Indy shut down our offense to the extent they did, there was no way we'd win regardless of who was playing corner on the defensive side. Our lack of offense, combined with mental mistakes such as Reed' fumble after the int, were FAR bigger factors than any CB deficiency.

[Lee Van Cleef]

Just to reiterate what I said on page 2 of this thread:


Our main problem has been unsettling him in the pocket. We've lacked a set of good pass-rushers since 2006 (in that playoff game against the Colts we held them to a winnable score, our offence crapped out). If you want to bother Manning, like Brady, you have to get a good pass rush (particularly up the inside) that makes him move.

And the other thing, you need a pair of good tackles to keep Freeney and Mathis in check. Our offence has done zip against the Colts as far as TDs for years now.

2009 Season:
Playoffs - Lost 3-20 (0 TDs)
Week 11 - Lost 17-15 (0 TDs)

2008 Season:
Week 6 - Lost 3-31 (0 TDs)

2007 Season:
Week 14 - Lost 44-20 (2 offensive TDs, 1 KR TD)

2006 Season:
Playoff Game - Lost 15-6 (0 TDs)

5 Games in 4 seasons against the Colts and only 2 offensive TDs (which came in a season when we were pretty bad and defensively beat up). You can't play a Peyton Manning-led team and not get in the endzone, it's just not going to end well. Last season we held them to 17 and 20 points, which is good enough to challenge them. But the offence either couldn't get in (week 11) or plain got their asses handed to them (playoffs).

[rastaman831226]

Say that all you want. Others will tell you Reed wasn't listening to the coaches and was freelancing out of position which killed the secondary. The tape - I was a game charter, I watched plenty of it - tells a story of certain guys missing certain plays at certain times. The how and why behind it, none of us are privy to.

- C -
Wrong tape- wrong assessment. I have tapes on every game of 2009 and they clearly show the errors were in the scheme and not individual players. Again, failure of Mattison's early mayonnaise vs. some success with Mattison's Rex-Lite. There can be no argument on this point.

[jonboy79]

It blows my mind that no one has pointed this out yet but in 2006, the Ravens had arguably the best CB tandem in the NFL. Chris McAlister was widely thought to be the 2nd best CB in the NFL behind only Champ Bailey. And our number 2, Samari Rolle , was a number 1 on most other teams. The thought that the Ravens need CB’s to beat Manning or that they have failed to win against him because of their CB’s is just wrong. They had one of the best tandem’s in all of football, held the Colts offense to 15 points and still lost. They need OFFENSE to beat Manning. In all of the losses that they have suffered to Manning, offense is the one thing that has consistently been missing. If your offense can only muster 9 points in two games, chances are you will not win and it doesn’t matter who the QB on the opposing team is. Trent Edwards or Brian Brohm could have QB’d the Colts in those two playoff games and the Ravens still wouldn’t have won.

If we had corners to that level I would feel confidant we could beat them with the offense we now have. I guess that is my point. That was what a Ravens Defense is.

[jonboy79]

Wrong tape- wrong assessment. I have tapes on every game of 2009 and they clearly show the errors were in the scheme and not individual players. Again, failure of Mattison's early mayonnaise vs. some success with Mattison's Rex-Lite. There can be no argument on this point.

So you are saying Ed wasn't ever out of position and Corners never slipped? There is Black and white and grey... Most Truths are in the Grey's...

[effo5231]

There can be no argument on this point.

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/0/00/Internettoughguys.gif

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Wrong tape- wrong assessment. I have tapes on every game of 2009 and they clearly show the errors were in the scheme and not individual players. Again, failure of Mattison's early mayonnaise vs. some success with Mattison's Rex-Lite. There can be no argument on this point.

Oh Boy...:grbac:

[rastaman831226]

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/0/00/Internettoughguys.gif

Oversensitivity is duly noted. Simply put, had you watched the games as many others have, there can be no argument that the schemes changed during the course of the year. Early Mattison featured little to no blitz packages- late Mattison featured disguised angled blitz packages this team was drafted and designed to run.

[rastaman831226]

So you are saying Ed wasn't ever out of position and Corners never slipped? There is Black and white and grey... Most Truths are in the Grey's...

Clearly Mattison's early season attempts to get pressure solely from the front 4 on opposing QB's was a disaster and hung the secondary our to dry. Late season disguised blitz packages involving Foxworth, Ellerbe, Barnes, and Carr shortened opposing QB's time and shortened the field for our beleaguered secondary. Pressure = success has been the Raven formula for winning.

[trailhiker85]

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/0/00/Internettoughguys.gif

Hah ...good one!!

:thumbup:

[rastaman831226]

So you are saying Ed wasn't ever out of position and Corners never slipped? There is Black and white and grey... Most Truths are in the Grey's...

Make no mistake about it, I wholeheartedly agree with you that we need better corners to stay with the elite teams in the NFL. Pressure is the key but having defensive coverage and pressure along with a scoring offense is the answer to elite team status.

[Dave Lap]

Clearly Mattison's early season attempts to get pressure solely from the front 4 on opposing QB's was a disaster and hung the secondary our to dry. Late season disguised blitz packages involving Foxworth, Ellerbe, Barnes, and Carr shortened opposing QB's time and shortened the field for our beleaguered secondary. Pressure = success has been the Raven formula for winning.

Here's a quote from Filmstudy's analysis of the late season game against Oakland regarding our pass rush.


The Ravens brought deceptive pressure 6 times in 42 drop backs, but none of those resulted in a sack. On the other hand, the Ravens brought effective 4-man pressure which knocked Frye from the game and generated 3 sacks and 2 turnovers on 28 such plays. When was the last time the Ravens had 3 or more sacks with just 4 pass rushers? Amazingly, it was last week at Pittsburgh where the Ravens rushed 4 24 times resulting in just 68 yards (2.8 YPP) with 4 sacks and 1 TO. The Ravens will face a set of QBs that are much more difficult to sack in the playoffs, but good 4-man pressure is usually an indication of solid coverage.


Hmmm...

[psuasskicker]

Wrong tape- wrong assessment. I have tapes on every game of 2009 and they clearly show the errors were in the scheme and not individual players. Again, failure of Mattison's early mayonnaise vs. some success with Mattison's Rex-Lite. There can be no argument on this point.

LOL... :thumbup:

Do you have the game-tape that has the inarguable answer to the meaning of life that you could shed some light on for us?

- C -

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Wrong tape- wrong assessment. I have tapes on every game of 2009 and they clearly show the errors were in the scheme and not individual players. Again, failure of Mattison's early mayonnaise vs. some success with Mattison's Rex-Lite. There can be no argument on this point.


Yet you continue to complain about our individual players. :eyes:

[Corey]

Wrong tape- wrong assessment. I have tapes on every game of 2009 and they clearly show the errors were in the scheme and not individual players. Again, failure of Mattison's early mayonnaise vs. some success with Mattison's Rex-Lite. There can be no argument on this point.

It was both. Mattison had never coached in the NFL prior to 08, so it took him a few games to fully adjust.

But the Ravens players were not playing their best either. Landry for one, had a horrible start to the season. So much so that if not for Nakamura's injury he would not have gotten a chance to turn it around.

Suggs was overweight and out of shape. His play on the field last year showed that and it came from his own mouth.

Kelly Gregg coming back off knee surgery is on the decline and not the same player that he once was.

The same can be said for Pryce, which is why Edwards eventually replaced him.

The rotating middle LB next to Ray Lewis was also a "liability" at times. And it took the team a while to figure out who was the best player to fill it. Which is why there was a rotation there for most of the first half of the season.

[rastaman831226]

Here's a quote from Filmstudy's analysis of the late season game against Oakland regarding our pass rush.


The Ravens brought deceptive pressure 6 times in 42 drop backs, but none of those resulted in a sack. On the other hand, the Ravens brought effective 4-man pressure which knocked Frye from the game and generated 3 sacks and 2 turnovers on 28 such plays. When was the last time the Ravens had 3 or more sacks with just 4 pass rushers? Amazingly, it was last week at Pittsburgh where the Ravens rushed 4 24 times resulting in just 68 yards (2.8 YPP) with 4 sacks and 1 TO. The Ravens will face a set of QBs that are much more difficult to sack in the playoffs, but good 4-man pressure is usually an indication of solid coverage.


Hmmm...

You bring up Oakland?

[rastaman831226]

LOL... :thumbup:

Do you have the game-tape that has the inarguable answer to the meaning of life that you could shed some light on for us?

- C -

Yeah, I'll send it to you.

[rastaman831226]

Yet you continue to complain about our individual players. :eyes:

Wha...?

[HoustonRaven]

You bring up Oakland?

You're doing a bang up job of endearing yourself to the other members, Noob.

May want to lay off the gas a bit. Just a thought.

[Dave Lap]

You bring up Oakland?

Uh...yeah and Pittsburgh.

[psuasskicker]

Clearly he's succeeded in getting us to drop a lot of troll food. Might I suggest...

[/thread]

- C -

[Ravenswarrior19]

Football is complex. Nothing is ever as simple as "it was this, not that".

Our struggles with pressure were a combination of things. Scheme, individual performance, and breakdowns in the secondary all play a role in our early season struggles.

The two main point I took away from re-watching our games were as follows:

1- We really didn't have anyone beating 1-on-1 blocks. Typically, we could count on Suggs and occasionally Pryce/Barnes/Bart to simply beat their man and apply pressure. Last year, we saw very little of that early on.

2- When we did try zone-blitz schemes or "deceptive pressue" scheme, the timing of the blitzes just wasn't there.

A hallmark of our D under Rex was sacrificing 1 rusher almost as a decoy to create a lane for a blitzer to rush through. Rex practically wrote the book on using angles and delays to create free rushers. So much of the scheme is dependent on good timing, so that the blitzer hits the hole as its created, and before a RB can pick him up.

Last year that time just wasn't there, and all our Ray + Gooden MLB cross blitzes, outside twists, etc. were getting picked up and leaving our secondary vulnerable.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Yet you continue to complain about our individual players. :eyes:


Wha...?


If the Ravens are to take the next step into elite team status, We're going to need a big experienced physical vet manning one of the corner spots. A healthy Fabian Washington is not the answer. It is my sincere hope that Ozzie will once again catch magic in a bottle by signing a post exhibition season CB contract dump ala Samari Rolle of a few years ago.

Was this not you? Is this not coomplaining about our players?

[rastaman831226]

You're doing a bang up job of endearing yourself to the other members, Noob.

May want to lay off the gas a bit. Just a thought.

Sorry, I thought this was a football forum. I had no idea it was a social club. You should lay off the brakes.

[rastaman831226]

Was this not you? Is this not coomplaining about our players?

Wha.. as in what planet are you on? How does a critique of Fabian Washington qualify as complaining about our players? Do the Ravens need more pressure on opposing elite teams' QB's? Absolutely. Can the Ravens achieve more pressure against elite teams from a 4/3 alignment? Absolutely not. Do the Ravens need to upgrade at corner against elite teams? Absolutely. What's your beef?

[Dave Lap]

Sorry, I thought this was a football forum. I had no idea it was a social club. You should lay off the brakes.

It is a forum first and foremost. Forums are for discussion. When you post opinions on reasons for Ravens success (for example) and follow it up by saying it is not subject to argument then you are not using the forum for discussion-you are, in effect, subverting the very purpose of the forum.

Also, every forum I've ever been on has a social structure that's wise to pay attention to, and (whether it's fair or not) people are judged by the impression they create. Especially first impressions.

So, I think the advice given by Houston was just meant to help. Maybe listening-you should try-as Yoda might put it.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Wha.. as in what planet are you on? How does a critique of Fabian Washington qualify as complaining about our players? Do the Ravens need more pressure on opposing elite teams' QB's? Absolutely. Can the Ravens achieve more pressure against elite teams from a 4/3 alignment? Absolutely not. Do the Ravens need to upgrade at corner against elite teams? Absolutely. What's your beef?

Your statement abour Washington not being the answer is not a critique. It is criticism. You did not offer anything as to why a guy who has been a solid starter since he has been here simply isn't the answer. Critiquing would require a reason...some meat to the argument other than "he is not the answer." He had a bad first 3 weeks or so, and now he can't play? Why can't he?

Our corners played very well down the stretch...and really after game 6 regardless of the "elite" teams we played. We didn't lose to those teams because of our CB's.

[rastaman831226]

It is a forum first and foremost. Forums are for discussion. When you post opinions on reasons for Ravens success (for example) and follow it up by saying it is not subject to argument then you are not using the forum for discussion-you are, in effect, subverting the very purpose of the forum.

Also, every forum I've ever been on has a social structure that's wise to pay attention to, and (whether it's fair or not) people are judged by the impression they create. Especially first impressions.

So, I think the advice given by Houston was just meant to help. Maybe listening-you should try-as Yoda might put it.

You gotta be kiddin' me. That was the biggest load I've ever heard. Subverting the purpose of a forum? Social structure that's wise to pay attention to? Are you serious or just plain out to lunch. Here's a life lesson for you: ( A.) Not everyone desires nor requires the approval of others to express a cogent thought, idea or opinion. ( B ) In your lifetime, you will come upon opinions far bolder and stronger than your own. How you react to these stronger opinions will go a long way in determining your level of maturity or immaturity. ( C ) Groupthink is unhealthy ( D ) Gregg Mattison gravely miscalculated that the best blitzing 3/4-4/3 hybrid defense in the NFL would provide adequate pressure on opposing QB's out of a traditional base 4/3 alignment with minimal blitzing and with personnel drafted and signed to specifically stop the run. Mattison miscalculated and failed. ( E ) Fabian Washington, for all his speed, has hands of stone, can't stay healthy, and has no love for the physical side of football ( tackling )- not a good resume for a 3/4 Ravens corner. ( F ) Just puttin' it out there for you to chew on..........without your...... approval.

[effo5231]

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/8110/34759669.png

Let's move on folks... nothing to see here anymore.

[HoustonRaven]

Alas, I must now allocate Rastaman to my scorn enumeration.

I bid thee farewell, kind Sir. We barely knew thee.

[psuasskicker]

Let's turn this thread into a compilation of cool "feed the troll" pictures...

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/small/0907/trolls-do-not-feed-them-rush-limbaugh-politics-trolls-idiots-demotivational-poster-1248822392.jpg

[HoustonRaven]

Not sure if you're knocking my man Rush, but still a cool pic!

:thumbup:

[rastaman831226]

Alas, I must now allocate Rastaman to my scorn enumeration.

I bid thee farewell, kind Sir. We barely knew thee.

....level of maturity or immaturity. Can't stand the heat nor stay on topic= wimping out.

[effo5231]

http://www.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=tbn&q=http://jenden.us/storage/JD/img/must_not_feed_the_troll.jpg&ei=XU_1S836CIP6lwfyj4HMCg&sa=X&oi=image_landing_page_redirect&ct=legacy&usg=AFQjCNFkPmBUZxuyzmCMZ1h31-3YeaXTQw

[HoustonRaven]

....level of maturity or immaturity. Can't stand the heat nor stay on topic= wimping out.

Cagy retort, fine Sir!

Instead of ameliorating your previous board decorum, you have chosen a defilement tactic against me.

The mental prowess you have displayed thus far is enlivening!

[elland]

It is a forum first and foremost. Forums are for discussion. When you post opinions on reasons for Ravens success (for example) and follow it up by saying it is not subject to argument then you are not using the forum for discussion-you are, in effect, subverting the very purpose of the forum.

Also, every forum I've ever been on has a social structure that's wise to pay attention to, and (whether it's fair or not) people are judged by the impression they create. Especially first impressions.

So, I think the advice given by Houston was just meant to help. Maybe listening-you should try-as Yoda might put it.

My words, thanks for the effort! And the respond.. well it did gave me a good laugh, hope the same for you. Go Ravens.

[Dave Lap]

Yeah. There's no lack of entertainment on internet forums that's for sure!:crazy:

[rastaman831226]

Yeah. There's no lack of entertainment on internet forums that's for sure!:crazy:

Give it a rest Dave. You just got laid flat. Show some dignity and just walk away. GO RAVENS!!!!

[effo5231]

Give it a rest Dave. You just got laid flat. Show some dignity and just walk away. GO RAVENS!!!!

http://prsvr.com/Websites/prsv/Images/e-thug_thumb.jpg

[psuasskicker]

Yo, don't be fron'in the dudes...doz white boyz iz mah homies!!!

- C -

[darb72]

:ww: I have a new sig.

Props to Rastaman.:thumbup:

[rastaman831226]

:ww: I have a new sig.

Props to Rastaman.:thumbup:

....... The silence says it all.

[RustonRifle]

You gotta be kiddin' me. That was the biggest load I've ever heard. Subverting the purpose of a forum? Social structure that's wise to pay attention to? Are you serious or just plain out to lunch. Here's a life lesson for you: ( A.) Not everyone desires nor requires the approval of others to express a cogent thought, idea or opinion. ( B ) In your lifetime, you will come upon opinions far bolder and stronger than your own. How you react to these stronger opinions will go a long way in determining your level of maturity or immaturity. ( C ) Groupthink is unhealthy ( D ) Gregg Mattison gravely miscalculated that the best blitzing 3/4-4/3 hybrid defense in the NFL would provide adequate pressure on opposing QB's out of a traditional base 4/3 alignment with minimal blitzing and with personnel drafted and signed to specifically stop the run. Mattison miscalculated and failed. ( E ) Fabian Washington, for all his speed, has hands of stone, can't stay healthy, and has no love for the physical side of football ( tackling )- not a good resume for a 3/4 Ravens corner. ( F ) Just puttin' it out there for you to chew on..........without your...... approval.

I think you're taking social structure out of context, many of the people here have been trading their football related opinions since the boards creation and communicate as if freinds even if opinions differ.

It looks like you are being far too critical of Mattison and give too much credit for the Ravens style of defense to Ryan. I too had some reservations about Mattison after reading in the Sun he had intended to get pressure with the front four prior to preseason, no doubt after the bye week the defense played better and the scheme changed who knows what would of come with mattison's plans if a healthy and dedicated Suggs showed up. Mattison and his scheme will be better this year than last, the feeling out process is over.