Ravens lose a week of OTA's

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Link (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/06/07/ravens-lose-final-week-of-otas/)

Interesting.

I think Florio hit it on the head...some player "snitched"...because you can see bright as day physical contact on the various pictures/videos on the various Ravens websites. Hell, there is a picture on the front page with Arthur Jones getting grapped in the chest on the Sun's sports front page.

[DVGN]

Congrats to the players, kudos to the "snitch."

This is what Harbaugh means when he calls the Ravens a "blue collar" team -- unsafe working conditions, unrealistic production expectations, apathy towards vital safety regulations, and a clandestine climate that makes pariahs out of those who expect to be treated fairly.

Assuming Harbaugh did in fact push too hard, he should apologize to his team. Somehow I don't see that happening -- Harbaugh's sense of personal moral certitude seems too unshakable.

(And I don't want to hear any "those guys get paid millions of dollars;" most janitors make more money in career earnings than the average professional football player. The NFL leaves uses its people up, almost invariably leaving them jobless and in pain after, in most cases, less than a decade.

The last thing those guys need (other than greedy owners who make millions of dollars on operations that essentially run themselves) is sanctimonious coaches who abuse players under the guise of grade-school platitudes like "teamwork" and "dedication.")

[RavenScallywag]

As the PFT article says, this generally happens for all teams and the NFL and NFLPA look the other way until someone makes a stink, someone gets slapped on the wrist, this goes away for a few years.

I think trying to make Harbaugh out to be some kind of tyrant, running practices with unsafe working conditions, is just laughable. Tons of reporters cover these OTAs, haven't noticed anything much before this. If there's physical contact, it seems to be more incidental, heat of the moment type stuff.

And to be honest, I'd rather us run practices with a little physicality. Aren't most of these OTAs voluntary? If a player doesn't want to do it, stay home. Yeah, you'll get labeled a softie, but I admire the guys who are going out there and playing hard to get better.

On a side note, how ironic is it that Gaither returned to practice today, the day when they announced that next week's OTAs are now cancelled, making this the last week?

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Congrats to the players, kudos to the "snitch."

This is what Harbaugh means when he calls the Ravens a "blue collar" team -- unsafe working conditions, unrealistic production expectations, apathy towards vital safety regulations, and a clandestine climate that makes pariahs out of those who expect to be treated fairly.

Assuming Harbaugh did in fact push too hard, he should apologize to his team. Somehow I don't see that happening -- Harbaugh's sense of personal moral certitude seems too unshakable.

(And I don't want to hear any "those guys get paid millions of dollars;" most janitors make more money in career earnings than the average professional football player. The NFL leaves uses its people up, almost invariably leaving them jobless and in pain after, in most cases, less than a decade.

The last thing those guys need (other than greedy owners who make millions of dollars on operations that essentially run themselves) is sanctimonious coaches who abuse players under the guise of grade-school platitudes like "teamwork" and "dedication.")

lol

[psuasskicker]

(And I don't want to hear any "those guys get paid millions of dollars;" most janitors make more money in career earnings than the average professional football player. The NFL leaves uses its people up, almost invariably leaving them jobless and in pain after, in most cases, less than a decade.

Um...

League minimum salary is $310k.

According to this link (http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_sc16000018.html), the median USA janitor's annual earnings are $24,469.

The median janitor in the country would be working for over 12 years to earn what the lowest paid player in the NFL gets paid in one.

FAIL

- C -

[trailhiker85]

Um...

League minimum salary is $310k.

According to this link (http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_sc16000018.html), the median USA janitor's annual earnings are $24,469.

The median janitor in the country would be working for over 12 years to earn what the lowest paid player in the NFL gets paid in one.

FAIL

- C -

And so if a player manages only a 4-year career at league minimum, he makes roughly the same amount of money that would take a janitor nearly half a century to make ...in other words an entire working lifetime. And most players will likely make considerably more than league minimum.

OK, I understand that NFL players are human just like the rest of us. And yes, the fact that injuries can pose career-ending threats deserves consideration. But c'mon. How many pro football players (injured or not), are sitting back saying to themselves, "Gee, I sure wish I'd have turned down that scholarship and signing bonus and six (or seven) figure contract and become a janitor instead. Then I'd have had lifelong job security!..."

[DVGN]

Um...

League minimum salary is $310k.

According to this link (http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_sc16000018.html), the median USA janitor's annual earnings are $24,469.

The median janitor in the country would be working for over 12 years to earn what the lowest paid player in the NFL gets paid in one.

FAIL

- C -


most janitors make more money in career earnings than the average professional football player.

Playing Devil's Advocate . . .

"In 1970, the average NFL player lasted nearly five years in the league. By 1986, they had a average three-year stay, a downward trend that continued as the league adopted more pass-happy formations, such as the West Coast offense, according to the NFL Players Association. A vested NFL player (meaning they get their pension after retirement) has to play a least 4 years, but it's a short stay for most . . . "

Assuming the average player plays for three years at 310k -- as a player that only lasts three years probably wouldn't make much more than the minimum -- their career earnings would total 930k.

A janitor -- at 24,469 annually -- would make that total in 38 years.

So, yeah, it takes a while for a janitor to make NFL money -- but by the time they do, their body is not profoundly damaged by their profession and they still have the ability to continue in their field.

So, in conclusion: BETTER JOB: NFL or JANITOR?!

:hammer::192214: WINNAR: JANITOR! :192214::hammer:

Ok, nevermind all that. No one is going to believe that its better to be a janitor than to play in the NFL -- because it's obviously not -- but I made the comparison because too often we perceive all professional athletes as invariably mega-rich, unworthy of an average Joe's right to be safe at work because of big paychecks and star status.

That's wrong.

And John Harbaugh -- assuming he was responsible -- was wrong if he cavalierly ignored the outer-most limits of what is allowed -- so much so that this franchise was singled out for a punishment not handed down in three years. That's wrong. Period.

Somewhat off-topic, but anyone who thinks that the post-sports lives of professional athletes is nothing but yachts, cuban cigars, and busty women -- while we all toil away in cubicle hell -- would do well to read this: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1153364/index.htm

[RavenScallywag]

The irony of this is just great...Billick gets fired for being too soft, now Harbaugh is being punished for being too hard.

The details of why will never come to light, but the whole situation is just very undefined. The violation was against "the tempo, toughness, and length" of practices.

So Harbaugh could've gotten penalized because the practices weren't half speed most of the time, or penalized because he ran them too long. Really?

The comments from Harbaugh has shown his class. He admits the wrong doing, promises it won't happen again. Period, done, move on to TC, where, for now, you are ALLOWED to run practices at your own pace.

[camdenyard]

So what. I look at many of these OTAs as silly season BS. The way I see it, the penalty is just fewer chances for our guys to rip up a knee.

And if Harbaugh broke the rules he should be called on it.

[psuasskicker]

Assuming the average player plays for three years at 310k

FAIL

The average player does not play for the bare-league-minimum. The average player makes seven figures, which means in one season the average player will make more than the average janitor could make in three quarters of a century.

- C -

[RavenScallywag]

I think more to that point, why don't we turn TC into no contact? If we're so worried about the injuries players get, why not make it so the only contact they have is during a real game.

And while we're at it...Preseason. That should be two hand touch football.

Look, these NFL players should know the risks of the sport they are getting into. Should we go back to the old school way of training? No. But trying to make out "fast tempo" or "long practices" as a contributor to players suffering career ending injuries?

If you are going to go after Harbaugh for something in this, it's that the practices he ran violated some condition of the NFLPA rules on allowed practices before training camp. He owned up to his mistake and promised he wouldn't do it again. How many injuries occurred during these OTAs? I can only think of two, Harewood and Gaither, and both players are practicing again, so it sounds like there was nothing serious. Why not go after the Jaguars, who had a fight break out during their OTAs? Isn't there more chance for a serious injury in an all out fight than in a practice where the contact is just a little above two hand touch? It's not like Harbaugh was running wedge busting drills or anything, if there was more contact, it was slight, or else it would've been noticed a lot sooner and by someone the media that cover the practices.

[DVGN]

FAIL

The average player does not play for the bare-league-minimum. The average player makes seven figures, which means in one season the average player will make more than the average janitor could make in three quarters of a century.

- C -

"The median salary in the NFL in 2009 is roughly $770,000. In 2008 it was about $720,000. The Steelers have the highest median salary at $1.1 million, the Packers the lowest at $440,000."

MASSIVE FAIL

(Who cares? We both know that playing football in the N-F-freakin'-L is usually better -- and more lucrative -- than being a janitor by a country mile. There's no question. But my point stands that NFL players are not so money-flooded that its okay to inappropriately put them in situations in which they are liable to be injured. Most of these guys have a short enough shelf life as it is.)

[psuasskicker]

Other than that average <> median, sure. But fine, let's go with the median NFL salary at 3 years. That's 2.3MM they'd earn in the avg NFL span. So, you know many janitors that have been doing their job for 94 years, do you?

Sh*t, I make more than double the USA's average wages and it'd still take me a quarter of a century to earn what the median NFL player will earn. Give me the opportunity to earn $2.3MM in three years and I will do literally any [legal] profession. Any.

Feel free to admit that your point is a complete and utter failure...

- C -

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Count in as a guy who does not feel overly sorry about these guys getting injuries.

They signed up for it, and most of us would sign up for it and do so in a heartbeat...all the while KNOWING of the potential injury/side effects.

Do I feel that more should be done as far as health benefits after they finish playing? Absolutely. No question. It is a fact that unfortunately, the NFL and NFLPA make it incredibly tough to prove some of the players later symptoms are as a result of playing football. But then you read stories about the time Matt Birk asked all players to donate like 20 percent of thier checks FOR ONE WEEK to help out the retired guys and only like 5 guys did it. If the players don't care, why should I? That tells me that you have a lot of guys living paycheck to paycheck and the rest just love thier fast money more than they do about pioneers...guys they will wind up like in 20 years.

But am I going to feel sorry for guys that sign up to play...thinking about thier future injuries? No...again, they signed up for it knowing they are potentially taking years off of thier lives to do something they love...or to live the life that they love. That is thier choice and they will have to live with it.

[Jeremiah W]

By breaking the rules they most likley put in more OTA work than any other team anyway. I think it was more likley another team making a complaint after reading about our OTAs on the team web site. The article about the comp between Ptta and Dickson for example seems like it should be more of a training camp thing than an OTA thing.

[DVGN]

Give me the opportunity to earn $2.3MM in three years and I will do literally any [legal] profession. Any.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090712233239AApCvsZ

Don't forget to have fun! :thumbup:

[psuasskicker]

For $2.3MM? If the wife signs off, I'll suck it up. I wouldn't ever have to work again. Yeah, no sweat.

- C -

[DVGN]

For $2.3MM? If the wife signs off, I'll suck it up. I wouldn't ever have to work again. Yeah, no sweat.

- C -

I'd have a rough time "sucking it up."

I guess you're just a bigger -- and ballsier -- man than me! :laugh:

[edreedisgod20]

Playing Devil's Advocate . . .

Not very well, unfortunately.




Assuming the average player plays for three years at 310k -- as a player that only lasts three years probably wouldn't make much more than the minimum -- their career earnings would total 930k.

Lots of things would be true if we simply assumed untrue premises. The average player does not play for the league minimum. You're also ignoring a critical variable in this equation - time.

(1) NFL player plays for three years and makes $930,000. He dumps that $930,000 into a savings account that accrues 4% interest compounded annually. After 35 years, he has $3.67 million. If he invests more successfully, at 5%, that becomes $5.13 million. At 6%, that becomes $7.15 million.

(2) Of course, in the above scenario, the football player would have to get a job to cover his expenses for 35 years - perhaps as a janitor, or possibly as a football coach. Suppose he doesn't want to do that - he just wants to sit around, eating bugles, and dreaming of his former glory. So he throws that $930,000 into a savings account that earns 4% interest compounded annually - and lives happily on $37,200 interest every year for the rest of his life. That's 50% more than our janitor, who is forced to toil for his income.





A janitor -- at 24,469 annually -- would make that total in 38 years.

So, yeah, it takes a while for a janitor to make NFL money -- but by the time they do, their body is not profoundly damaged by their profession and they still have the ability to continue in their field.

Most players who only play three years in the NFL don't suffer from life-altering damage to their bodies that would preclude them from obtaining other employment. If they did, we'd have a lot more crippled college football players on our hands.



So, in conclusion: BETTER JOB: NFL or JANITOR?!

:hammer::192214: WINNAR: JANITOR! :192214::hammer:

Ok, nevermind all that. No one is going to believe that its better to be a janitor than to play in the NFL -- because it's obviously not -- but I made the comparison because too often we perceive all professional athletes as invariably mega-rich, unworthy of an average Joe's right to be safe at work because of big paychecks and star status.

That's wrong.

Being a professional football player carries a "danger premium" - construction workers and coal miners are the same way - one of the reasons they are paid more is because they expose themselves to danger that the "average joe" does not. So yes, it is, indeed, their big paychecks that make them unworthy of the same standards.



And John Harbaugh -- assuming he was responsible -- was wrong if he cavalierly ignored the outer-most limits of what is allowed -- so much so that this franchise was singled out for a punishment not handed down in three years. That's wrong. Period.

Contact in practice isn't a safety violation. It did violate a rule, and if sanctions are necessary, so be it. But players practice with contact all the time. It's part of being a football player. The timing of it doesn't immediately make it an enormous threat to lifetime well-being of the football players involved.


Somewhat off-topic, but anyone who thinks that the post-sports lives of professional athletes is nothing but yachts, cuban cigars, and busty women -- while we all toil away in cubicle hell -- would do well to read this: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1153364/index.htm

Do people think that? Good strawman, though. Actually, the entire janitor argument was a valiant effort.

[effo5231]

I'd have a rough time "sucking it up."

I guess you're just a bigger -- and ballsier -- man than me! :laugh:

I hear this line a lot. "Oh man, I wouldn't do that for a billion dollars!" Wherein "that" is some unpleasant activity or another. But I'm willing to bet that if I walked up to any of you with a scant $250,000 cash in hand and an iron clad promise of anonymity, every single one of you would do just about anything.

Seriously, look deep within yourself and be honest. You don't have to post it and admit it, but there aren't a lot of us on this board that could afford to pass up a cool quarter mil tax free just to avoid eating a pile of yak testes, or chopping off a finger, or going gay for pay.

I'm self aware enough to admit that there is probably no legal activity I can imagine myself NOT doing for an afternoon if I could walk away 250 g's richer by dinner time.

[psuasskicker]

I guess you're just a bigger -- and ballsier -- man than me!

That's what she said.

- C -

[effo5231]

That's what she said.

- C -

Ba-dum Ching! (http://instantrimshot.com/)

[Sua Sponte]

So was Willie VanDeSteeg the snitch. Who gets cut in June, unless there is a really good reason.

OR

Look at Ravens Insider Topics....

Gaither returns to prcatice....

Ravens lose a week of practice..... (snitch)

[DVGN]

Lots of things would be true if we simply assumed untrue premises. The average player does not play for the league minimum. You're also ignoring a critical variable in this equation - time.

(1) NFL player plays for three years and makes $930,000. He dumps that $930,000 into a savings account that accrues 4% interest compounded annually. After 35 years, he has $3.67 million. If he invests more successfully, at 5%, that becomes $5.13 million. At 6%, that becomes $7.15 million.

(2) Of course, in the above scenario, the football player would have to get a job to cover his expenses for 35 years - perhaps as a janitor, or possibly as a football coach. Suppose he doesn't want to do that - he just wants to sit around, eating bugles, and dreaming of his former glory. So he throws that $930,000 into a savings account that earns 4% interest compounded annually - and lives happily on $37,200 interest every year for the rest of his life. That's 50% more than our janitor, who is forced to toil for his income.

Horrible example. Utterly implausible. Irrelevant too. What the hell does interest have to do with my saying that an ordinary player could make as little as 930,000 dollars in three years time?!

And I suppose said player lives on the street and subsists only on food salvaged from dumpsters -- thus allowing the player to dump every penny earned into his bank account. Oops . . . we forgot taxes! (And a football player's tax bracket is, in a word, ouch.)


Being a professional football player carries a "danger premium" - construction workers and coal miners are the same way - one of the reasons they are paid more is because they expose themselves to danger that the "average joe" does not. So yes, it is, indeed, their big paychecks that make them unworthy of the same standards.

:laugh:

Yeah, because construction workers and coal miners take daily Scrooge McDuck-esque baths in gold. The "danger premium" is fiction and certainly not enjoyed by construction workers and coal miners.

There is a tacit professional athlete premium because of the money that these leagues can generate, not because of how badly these guys f*** up their bodies.


Contact in practice isn't a safety violation. It did violate a rule, and if sanctions are necessary, so be it. But players practice with contact all the time. It's part of being a football player. The timing of it doesn't immediately make it an enormous threat to lifetime well-being of the football players involved.

Yeah, contact in practice is necessary to a degree in football. But contact means risk, and with extra risk comes the possibility for extra injury and the potential for shorter careers. How is this even debatable?


Do people think that? Good strawman, though. Actually, the entire janitor argument was a valiant effort.

Yes, some people do think that. I think a lot of embittered, hard-working people possess a certain ambivalence for athletes. We deify ones that follow the rules and demonize those that behave badly -- to degrees disproportionate to how we would treat, say, our neighbors.

I think too that we stereotype former NFL players as wealthy and entitled, leading post-football lives of lethargy and hedonism. And too often when once-rich athletes go bankrupt a lot of us take a cruel delight in their suffering -- even if their irresponsibility was symptomatic of the toxic, ubiquitous culture they spent a lifetime being inundated with.

The link to the SI article wasn't a "strawman," as I acknowledged that it was off-topic and only tangentially related to my post. But I do think that our society's perception of the lives of our athletes is profoundly flawed and us not caring about their safety at practice is somewhat indicative of that.

[Stealthbirds80]

So was Willie VanDeSteeg the snitch. Who gets cut in June, unless there is a really good reason.

OR

Look at Ravens Insider Topics....

Gaither returns to prcatice....

Ravens lose a week of practice..... (snitch)


:word

IT'S GAITHER!!!!!

:thumbdown::grbac:

[RavenScallywag]

Here's the lowdown, according to Harbs....

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/blog/2010/06/harbaugh_calls_rules_violation_embarrassing.html

Violations were for being held too late for meetings.

Seriously? That's what we're dealing with?

Oh man, I had to wait another 20-30 mins to run home and play my XBOX. Gawd, I'm so MAD! I need to tell the NFL about these unfair working conditions

:grbac:

[psuasskicker]

Well, it may have been Gaither, but sounds like there were plenty of others involved in tattling as well, so I don't think it's worth blaming anyone in particular.

Pathetic they complained about it. The money these guys are getting paid, staying late after practice should be expected. I don't get to complain to HR when I have to stay at my job after 5:30 because there's a lot of stuff I need to take care of to help my company...

Unions suck.

- C -

[DVGN]

Well, it may have been Gaither, but sounds like there were plenty of others involved in tattling as well, so I don't think it's worth blaming anyone in particular.

Pathetic they complained about it.

This I can agree with.

If it wasn't a safety issue, but rather guys just felt inconvenienced, then I simply feel ashamed for this team.

These guys were willing to bring embarrassment to their franchise and coaches merely for keeping them too late -- and their actions canceled a week of practice for the all guys that want to be there and get better.

If true, pathetic.

[edreedisgod20]

Horrible example. Utterly implausible. Irrelevant too. What the hell does interest have to do with my saying that an ordinary player could make as little as 930,000 dollars in three years time?!

And I suppose said player lives on the street and subsists only on food salvaged from dumpsters -- thus allowing the player to dump every penny earned into his bank account. Oops . . . we forgot taxes! (And a football player's tax bracket is, in a word, ouch.)



:laugh:

Yeah, because construction workers and coal miners take daily Scrooge McDuck-esque baths in gold. The "danger premium" is fiction and certainly not enjoyed by construction workers and coal miners.

There is a tacit professional athlete premium because of the money that these leagues can generate, not because of how badly these guys f*** up their bodies.



Yeah, contact in practice is necessary to a degree in football. But contact means risk, and with extra risk comes the possibility for extra injury and the potential for shorter careers. How is this even debatable?



Yes, some people do think that. I think a lot of embittered, hard-working people possess a certain ambivalence for athletes. We deify ones that follow the rules and demonize those that behave badly -- to degrees disproportionate to how we would treat, say, our neighbors.

I think too that we stereotype former NFL players as wealthy and entitled, leading post-football lives of lethargy and hedonism. And too often when once-rich athletes go bankrupt a lot of us take a cruel delight in their suffering -- even if their irresponsibility was symptomatic of the toxic, ubiquitous culture they spent a lifetime being inundated with.

The link to the SI article wasn't a "strawman," as I acknowledged that it was off-topic and only tangentially related to my post. But I do think that our society's perception of the lives of our athletes is profoundly flawed and us not caring about their safety at practice is somewhat indicative of that.

Those are a lot of words but little of substance. Time is an absolutely critical component of money, and saying it isn't is terribly foolish. Why does interest exist? Why do banks simply give you money in the form of a loan? A dollar today is worth much, much, much more than a dollar in 38 years - the reason being for exactly the reasons I stated. Your claim was that the $930,000 earned by the janitor in 38 years is comparable to $930,000 earned by the football player in three years. Not only isn't it comparable, but the football player can end up as much as 50% ahead without doing a single day's more work in his lifetime.

The danger premium and the premium football players receive because of supply/demand and the revenue they generate are not mutually exclusive, nor did I ever indicate that the magnitude of the danger premium in football does not pale in comparison to the other two forces. By the way, if you examine the BLS profile on earnings in construction and mining, you'll find the following two opening lines:

Earnings in construction are higher than the average for all industries.

Average earnings of wage and salary workers in mining were significantly higher than the average for all industries.

There is no shortage of people who are capable of working in construction or mining, but there is a shortage of people willing to do so. Why is that?

And finally, nobody in this thread even remotely hinted to the idea that post-career athletes live in the sort of the luxury to which you are referring. You brought it up yourself specifically so that you could shoot it down. If anything, you are overcompensating to the "deification" of professional athletes by sensationalizing the plight of the "league-minimum" player.

[Dont Know]

How many injuries occurred during these OTAs? I can only think of two, Harewood and Gaither, and both players are practicing again, so it sounds like there was nothing serious.

But serious injuries can and do happen, just ask Quinn Sypniewski (spelling?).

[RavenScallywag]

Quinn was definitley an unfortunate injury, but that wasn't contact, that was him running and cutting. The only way to prevent those types of injuries is stil run all OTA practices at half speed.