Flacco vs. the Elite

[psuasskicker]

.
This, people, is what "analysis" looks like.

Let's take a look at some Y3 from some of the elite QBs in NFL history.

Brett Favre (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FavrBr00/gamelog/)
Four game stretch early in that season with QB ratings under 70, three of them under 57, 3 TDs and 7 INTs in that stretch. Six games with < 60 QB rating, three 3 INT games and one 4 INT game. Went 9-7 and won a playoff game.

Tom Brady (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00/gamelog/)
In the midst of a playoff stretch run after winning the Superbowl his second season, has three games rated under 69, two of which were under 58. Three games under 60 rating, another two under 70. Just one 3 INT game, but sandwiched between two seasons where he had two 4 INT games and won Superbowls.

Drew Brees (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BreeDr00/gamelog/)
Only played 11 games. Opening three games threw 3 TDs to 6 picks. Went a stretch in the middle of the season with three games in a row under 42 rating throwing 0 TDs and 5 INTs. Five of his eleven games were under 60 rating.

Peyton Manning (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00/gamelog/)
Ooooookay, you guys stumped me! Only one game with under a 60 rating, the only one with his 3 INTs. That's it! Flacco will never be Peyton Manning! He's a bust! We need to write him off immediately!!! Bulger for starting QB, then President in 2012!!!!!

But wait... What's this? In Manning's 4th season, he had 3 games under a 60 rating, throwing 10 INTs in those three. hmmm.....

Steve Young (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/Y/YounSt00.htm)
Didn't start much until his 7th season. You can do whatever research you want on this guy, but it's at least worth mentioning that in his second season, when he did have > 360 att, he did have seven games with < 60 rating.

Joe Montana (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MontJo01/gamelog/)
Three games with a < 62 rating. Another really good one with Manning. But he won the Superbowl. With three games where he looked really bad? No! It's almost...not...possible! Guess what else? In '84, he threw 4 INTs, and won the Superbowl. Know who he threw those 4 INTs against?

The Bengals.

Dan Marino (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MariDa00/gamelog/)
Opened the season with a 40 QB rating. Later had two games with ratings between 55 and 58. Four games with < 60 rating, another two with < 70. Two games with three INTs. Won a playoff game.

Ben Roethlisberger (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00/gamelog/)
Let's finish with my most controversial entry in my list. I mean, we can't really consider Ben a "great" QB with only a 92 career QB rating, 60-26 regular season record and two Superbowl wins, right? :eyes:

Okay, now that we're beyond that, let's have a look at that third season, shall we? Opens the season with two games rated under 40, and under 60 in his third, throwing no TDs and seven INTs. Four games with < 50 QB rating, and has a different three games where he throws 3 or 4 INTs. Two seasons later he has five games with under 60 rating including two under 40 with a three game stretch where he throws 1 TD and 8 INTs, and wins his second Superbowl.

So yeah. I can totally see why everyone is snap-judging that Flacco is toast, will never amount to anything, is worse than Shaun Hill, is a bust, has no chance of winning a playoff game this season and generally should be benched for Bulger - all things we read on this board today.

How 'bout instead of flipping out for no real reason we all calm down, take a breath, and see how the season progresses with our young QB that's just played two very tough defenses on the road in a six game stretch and won one of them.

Or is rational thinking asking a bit too much of people?

- C -

[RavensNTerps]

Look - I'm hardly a Flacco hater. But MY issue with the way he's been playing isn't just the stats or the results. It's the fact that his mechanics have been terrible since like week 7 of last year. He NEVER steps into his throws which leads to a lot of floaters. He's always off his back foot. It's really bad. And until that's fixed, the stats part of it won't change.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Alrighty...Flacco is awesome! I mean besides the fact that a couple of those guys won or got to Super Bowls in fewer starts...some others were on their way to leading the league in passing categories such as TD's/yards etc...I mean look at all the similarities!!!

Look, only a select few are trying to put a final stamp on Flacco right now. I'm not stamping him as he can still improve...but it is taking a hell of a lot longer than anyone anticipated/expected/desires and maybe needed if they expect to make it to the big game.

Comparing a guy to other greats does nothing for me...I could pull out a bunch of guys who have had mediocre careers, but I'm not because Joe is not Steve Young or Ken O'Brien or Kyle Boller. But you would like your QB who has started 34 games to be able to go through a progression...even if under some duress, and not look over matched. Especially with the weapons we have added. And with the exception of being able to throw up some jump balls against the Jets last week, he hasn't really consistently made the correct play.

[Dade]

I think people want Flacco to be elite like right now. They forget it's only his third year. Hell look at Favre last year in the NFCC, making the most rookie of mistakes.

We are so knee jerk around here. I admitt I'm concerned about his decision making, but we shouldn't be callling him a bust or calling for Bulger.

[StingerNLG]

Alrighty...Flacco is awesome! I mean besides the fact that a couple of those guys won or got to Super Bowls in fewer starts...some others were on their way to leading the league in passing categories such as TD's/yards etc...I mean look at all the similarities!!!

Look, only a select few are trying to put a final stamp on Flacco right now. I'm not stamping him as he can still improve...but it is taking a hell of a lot longer than anyone anticipated/expected/desires and maybe needed if they expect to make it to the big game.

Comparing a guy to other greats does nothing for me...I could pull out a bunch of guys who have had mediocre careers, but I'm not because Joe is not Steve Young or Ken O'Brien or Kyle Boller. But you would like your QB who has started 34 games to be able to go through a progression...even if under some duress, and not look over matched. Especially with the weapons we have added. And with the exception of being able to throw up some jump balls against the Jets last week, he hasn't really consistently made the correct play.

This.

PSU, I love ya to death man, you know I do. But this is going a long way to trying to convince me what I'm seeing on the field isn't true.

And it isn't just me. There are a lot of people who are pointing out that in his 3rd year there are still things that Flacco is doing that are causing problems. Throwing off his back foot. Not being able to throw very well between the hash marks.

And all the stat comparisons in the world don't hide the fact that these are all things Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, etc; CAN do.

And until he learns how to do it consistently, we're going to have to hope in every game that our defense can shut down the opposition and Ray Rice can take 35 carries a game.

Can he? I sure as hell hope so! But as RIW has said, it would sure be nice to at least SEE that progression.

[NCRAVEN]

Comparing a guy to other greats does nothing for me...I could pull out a bunch of guys who have had mediocre careers, but I'm not because Joe is not Steve Young or Ken O'Brien or Kyle Boller. But you would like your QB who has started 34 games to be able to go through a progression...even if under some duress, and not look over matched. Especially with the weapons we have added. And with the exception of being able to throw up some jump balls against the Jets last week, he hasn't really consistently made the correct play.

:word

[Galen Sevinne]

But you would like your QB who has started 34 games to be able to go through a progression...even if under some duress, and not look over matched. Especially with the weapons we have added. And with the exception of being able to throw up some jump balls against the Jets last week, he hasn't really consistently made the correct play.

:word

all of the elite QBs have demonstrated repeatedly they "see" the field. how many 2 minute drive wins has Joe had?

[Mwjergs]

I get it and don't fully disagree with the point although you could have saved yourself all that writing.

Flacco is young, he's still learning and he's going to have games like this.
All the greats did so why should he be any different?

I also am concerned with his basic mechanics, footwork and general body language reading good defenses. But it's still way too early to toss him aside or brand him a bust. The book is out on him and he must adjust.

I'll be staying away from any talk radio for the next few days lest I hear more "let's see what Marc Bulger can do" comments that have already infected the web.

He's led his offense to 2 TD's and 6 TO's in two games against two playoff defenses. I'll be very interested to see how responds against the Brownies at home next week.

[ravensnhokies]

Hey a good QB will pick himself up after a turd outing like that, so we will see Flacco's quality in the coming weeks. I hope Cam, or the Alchemist (Larry Rosen TM) helps him out too, b/c he sure didnt help him out today

[Dade]

Flacco is young, he's still learning and he's going to have games like this.
All the greats did so why should he be any different?


None of that rational thinking here. Your either one extreme, Flacco should be benched, or the other, nothing is wrong with Flacco.

[psuasskicker]

Look - I'm hardly a Flacco hater. But MY issue with the way he's been playing isn't just the stats or the results. It's the fact that his mechanics have been terrible since like week 7 of last year. He NEVER steps into his throws which leads to a lot of floaters. He's always off his back foot. It's really bad. And until that's fixed, the stats part of it won't change.

That makes for a really nice sound bite, but simply isn't true.


Look, only a select few are trying to put a final stamp on Flacco right now. I'm not stamping him as he can still improve...but it is taking a hell of a lot longer than anyone anticipated/expected/desires and maybe needed if they expect to make it to the big game.

Comparing a guy to other greats does nothing for me...I could pull out a bunch of guys who have had mediocre careers, but I'm not because Joe is not Steve Young or Ken O'Brien or Kyle Boller. But you would like your QB who has started 34 games to be able to go through a progression...even if under some duress, and not look over matched. Especially with the weapons we have added. And with the exception of being able to throw up some jump balls against the Jets last week, he hasn't really consistently made the correct play.

The problem is, you and others are writing off this season because Flacco looked terrible today as if there was some sort of expectation that he should be perfect and never have bad games. Would you like me to re-do this list and show you the first season each of these QBs went to and/or won the Superbowl? Cause on just a very quick count I've got no less than nine games with < 60 QB ratings during the years in which each of these guys won their first Superbowls. And four of the previous nine SB winning QBs have thrown 4 INTs in a game during their SB winning year.

And sorry, that jump ball assessment is pretty ridiculous. That's the exact sort of armchair QB assessment that is simply short-sighted. Peyton Manning throws those passes all the time. Tough passes into tight windows where he allows his receiver to make a play. Manning throws them, what guts, what great decision making, what talent! Flacco throws them, man did that dude get lucky that his receiver bailed him out! That's the McNabb haterism I linked in the other thread.


And it isn't just me. There are a lot of people who are pointing out that in his 3rd year there are still things that Flacco is doing that are causing problems. Throwing off his back foot. Not being able to throw very well between the hash marks.

And all the stat comparisons in the world don't hide the fact that these are all things Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, etc; CAN do.

And until he learns how to do it consistently, we're going to have to hope in every game that our defense can shut down the opposition and Ray Rice can take 35 carries a game.

The problem, though, is that people are expecting this ridiculous consistency and under the mistaken impression that Manning, Brady et al could do all that consistently - i.e. every single game - either at this point in their careers or simply during their SB season.

The facts just don't back that assessment up. I mean, just not even close. Doesn't matter if you look at Y3 or a SB winning year for these guys.

I've already said that I'm not indicating no one here should be worried. But there's a HUGE difference between worrying and panicking. What this board is doing is panicking. It's not everyone. But it's most. And people are complaining that Flacco's not displaying any abilities to do a variety of things correctly.

Did he do a lot wrong today? Yeah.

Is he consistently doing a lot of things wrong? No. I'm sorry, he's not. Did he throw off his back foot a lot today? Some. Did he make bad decisions today? Yep, no doubt. Has he made some great decisions recently? Yes, whether you want to believe it or not, he most certainly has.

Flacco's still a young QB with a mediocre OL and a bunch of new receivers with which he must gel. He's gonna have good games and bad. So it goes.

But man. The abuse being heaped on him on this board today is simply shameful.

- C -

[Dade]

I've already said that I'm not indicating no one here should be worried. But there's a HUGE difference between worrying and panicking. What this board is doing is panicking. It's not everyone. But it's most. And people are complaining that Flacco's not displaying any abilities to do a variety of things correctly.

Did he do a lot wrong today? Yeah.

Is he consistently doing a lot of things wrong? No. I'm sorry, he's not. Did he throw off his back foot a lot today? Some. Did he make bad decisions today? Yep, no doubt. Has he made some great decisions recently? Yes, whether you want to believe it or not, he most certainly has.

Flacco's still a young QB with a mediocre OL and a bunch of new receivers with which he must gel. He's gonna have good games and bad. So it goes.

But man. The abuse being heaped on him on this board today is simply shameful.

- C -

:iagree:

[Heap86]

Flacco hasn't had a good game since they played Chicago last year.

[Galen Sevinne]

None of that rational thinking here. Your either one extreme, Flacco should be benched, or the other, nothing is wrong with Flacco.

I don't think many are saying he should be benced - that is a red herring. What most are saying is that there is a lot to be concerned here with Flacco. This is his third year and he has been surrounded by support with coaches and players. He is still showing really poor mechanics and poor decisions on the field. So what is going to change moving forward? If these were coachable traits, I would imagine, they would have been "coached" out of him by now?

Stats can be used to support any conclusion if you try hard enough. As we sit here today, Flacco does not look comfortable as a QB leading this team. Players on the team are already looking frustrated. Pittsburgh beat a really tough team today on the road with what amounts to their 4th string QB. Meanwhile our "elite" QB can't engineer a win against a team that never sniffed the endzone.

[NCRAVEN]

I've already said that I'm not indicating no one here should be worried. But there's a HUGE difference between worrying and panicking. What this board is doing is panicking. It's not everyone. But it's most. And people are complaining that Flacco's not displaying any abilities to do a variety of things correctly.

So you aren't panicking. Fine. Are you worried?


Did he do a lot wrong today? Yeah.


Is he consistently doing a lot of things wrong? No. I'm sorry, he's not. Did he throw off his back foot a lot today? Some. Did he make bad decisions today? Yep, no doubt. Has he made some great decisions recently? Yes, whether you want to believe it or not, he most certainly has.

Please name these great things he has done recently

Flacco's still a young QB with a mediocre OL and a bunch of new receivers with which he must gel. He's gonna have good games and bad. So it goes.

But man. The abuse being heaped on him on this board today is simply shameful.

How is it shameful, QB rating of 23, 4 INT's under 50% completion percentage, held on to the ball way to long overthrew, under threw a lot. Other than an out to Boldin and TD pass to Mason, anyone on this board could have made the other throws.

- C -

.

[StingerNLG]

He's led his offense to 2 TD's and 6 TO's in two games against two playoff defenses. I'll be very interested to see how responds against the Brownies at home next week.

Ok, so we're clear though; is this the way we are going to basically judge things now? "Well, we played like this against two playoff defenses".

Well in order to be a team that wants to contend for the Super Bowl, shouldn't we be able to BEAT a team with a playoff defense? If this is the rationale we're going with, it's going to be a long season.



The problem, though, is that people are expecting this ridiculous consistency and under the mistaken impression that Manning, Brady et al could do all that consistently - i.e. every single game - either at this point in their careers or simply during their SB season.

What rediculous consistency though? I don't think anyone here is asking him to throw 400 yards a game and have 6 touchdowns per. But some ARE asking not to see what appears to be the same issues he had last year, and maybe even a bit of a regression in his comfort level behind center. That's not asking for the rediculous.



Is he consistently doing a lot of things wrong? No. I'm sorry, he's not. Did he throw off his back foot a lot today? Some. Did he make bad decisions today? Yep, no doubt. Has he made some great decisions recently? Yes, whether you want to believe it or not, he most certainly has.

RECENTLY? No that is absolutely debatable. Overall last year he made some great decisions. But I am not seeing those great decisions coming through pre-season, and into the first 2 games of the year. And again, we're seeing the same weaknesses from Flacco as we have seen from his last games.

So far, he is doing the same bad habits over and over, and like it or not his mechanics HAVE regressed. Lots of people are seeing it, it's not just us couple of crazy people.


Flacco's still a young QB with a mediocre OL and a bunch of new receivers with which he must gel. He's gonna have good games and bad. So it goes.

The OL was not the glaring issue today though. And still being a "young" QB is all well and good if he's playing on the Lions.



But man. The abuse being heaped on him on this board today is simply shameful.

But it's a select few people. It's not the majority.

[psuasskicker]

This is his third year and he has been surrounded by support with coaches and players. He is still showing really poor mechanics and poor decisions on the field.

And here-in proves my point.

No he's not. He showed that in one game. People simply translate one game into "he's doing it all the time" and turn it into whatever they want. Hence the point of the OP. All the elite QBs do it from time to time. Bad games happen. A couple game stretch of bad games happen. Indicating it's a major sign that Flacco is doomed or even simply in trouble is hardly the answer.

Or are people seriously contending here that in the midst of, say, Brett Favre's four game stretch of throwing 3 TDs to 7 INTs that he really looked awesome mechanically and made all great decisions doing it, he just had some really bad luck in there?

- C -

[psuasskicker]

Ok, so we're clear though; is this the way we are going to basically judge things now? "Well, we played like this against two playoff defenses".

Well in order to be a team that wants to contend for the Super Bowl, shouldn't we be able to BEAT a team with a playoff defense? If this is the rationale we're going with, it's going to be a long season.




What rediculous consistency though? I don't think anyone here is asking him to throw 400 yards a game and have 6 touchdowns per. But some ARE asking not to see what appears to be the same issues he had last year, and maybe even a bit of a regression in his comfort level behind center. That's not asking for the rediculous.

Woah woah...

1) We DID beat one of those teams. The other, we were close, potentially would have without bullshit penalties (potentially, and no I'm not blaming those on our loss), and did it with two road games in six days. I don't think anyone here really appreciates how difficult that is.

2) Flacco was one of the reasons we won that game against the Jets, not one of the reasons we almost lost. He had one awful fumble, one pick which may or may not have been his fault, one bad miss of McClain wide open in the end zone, and looked actually pretty darn good against a great pass defense the rest of the game. A pass defense, btw, that just trounced Tom Brady who needed a sick one-handed grab by Moss to make his stats even a bit respectable. Flacco converted 9 of 14 3rd downs, including 7 of 7+ yards. He made some awesome throws in that game, including several in the face of enormous pressure.

He had one awful game today. There's no one debating that. But sorry, one game isn't indicative of a trend. And every QB makes mistakes, often consistently over a couple game stretch. I've gone to great lengths to prove that. And until someone can prove that wrong, everyone here should calm down and wait to see how he performs these next few games.

If Flacco's throwing 50% with 3 TDs and 13 INTs after week six, then yeah, we should all be really concerned and maybe start talking about making a change.

But I'll also be downright SHOCKED if he is. In fact, I would wager that he has at least as many TDs as INTs for the season by the end of week six.

- C -

[Galen Sevinne]

And here-in proves my point.

No he's not. He showed that in one game. People simply translate one game into "he's doing it all the time" and turn it into whatever they want. Hence the point of the OP. All the elite QBs do it from time to time. Bad games happen.

- C -

Sure bad games happen to the Elites but great games also happen to the Elites. Great games meaning 400+ or 4 td passes or 2 minutes drives to win games. Flacco lacks the great games in addition to his bad games. I will give Joe the potential to be a good QB but he hasn't shown any evidence yet to indicate he might someday be Elite.

To say Favre also had bad days to somehow support Joe has potential to be Elite is seriously fallacious thinking.

[NCRAVEN]

Sure bad games happen to the Elites but great games also happen to the Elites. Great games meaning 400+ or 4 td passes or 2 minutes drives to win games. Flacco lacks the great games in addition to his bad games. I will give Joe the potential to be a good QB but he hasn't shown any evidence yet to indicate he might someday be Elite.

To say Favre also had bad days to somehow support Joe has potential to be Elite is seriously fallacious thinking.

:word:word:word

[Sua Sponte]

While all these comparsions are great, the QB's mentioned above also had games were they dominant, and have looked elite mixed in with those stats.
I'm holding out hope, but Flacco has never had a blow out game or even looked elite. I hope he snaps out of it and I'm not saying he is a bust or done, but something needs to change. Hey you never know, he started out Hot last year and fell off, maybe he is starting out slow this year and finishing strong, like starting next week would help, O, but wait it's the Browns.

Come back games?
300+ yard games? 3 maybe?
3 TD games?

That 4,000 yard year isn't looking to good.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

I have read a lot of criticism...but not all this talk about benching him and declaring him a bust.

On the Sun's message board and on Scout? Yeah there are some nutjobs, but here, if we are expressing concern about his lack of progression, that doesn't mean we are saying to bench him and send him packing.

I think some of us want him to succeed so much that they take criticism personally.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

That makes for a really nice sound bite, but simply isn't true.



The problem is, you and others are writing off this season because Flacco looked terrible today as if there was some sort of expectation that he should be perfect and never have bad games. Would you like me to re-do this list and show you the first season each of these QBs went to and/or won the Superbowl? Cause on just a very quick count I've got no less than nine games with < 60 QB ratings during the years in which each of these guys won their first Superbowls. And four of the previous nine SB winning QBs have thrown 4 INTs in a game during their SB winning year.

And sorry, that jump ball assessment is pretty ridiculous. That's the exact sort of armchair QB assessment that is simply short-sighted. Peyton Manning throws those passes all the time. Tough passes into tight windows where he allows his receiver to make a play. Manning throws them, what guts, what great decision making, what talent! Flacco throws them, man did that dude get lucky that his receiver bailed him out! That's the McNabb haterism I linked in the other thread.



The problem, though, is that people are expecting this ridiculous consistency and under the mistaken impression that Manning, Brady et al could do all that consistently - i.e. every single game - either at this point in their careers or simply during their SB season.

The facts just don't back that assessment up. I mean, just not even close. Doesn't matter if you look at Y3 or a SB winning year for these guys.

I've already said that I'm not indicating no one here should be worried. But there's a HUGE difference between worrying and panicking. What this board is doing is panicking. It's not everyone. But it's most. And people are complaining that Flacco's not displaying any abilities to do a variety of things correctly.

Did he do a lot wrong today? Yeah.

Is he consistently doing a lot of things wrong? No. I'm sorry, he's not. Did he throw off his back foot a lot today? Some. Did he make bad decisions today? Yep, no doubt. Has he made some great decisions recently? Yes, whether you want to believe it or not, he most certainly has.

Flacco's still a young QB with a mediocre OL and a bunch of new receivers with which he must gel. He's gonna have good games and bad. So it goes.

But man. The abuse being heaped on him on this board today is simply shameful.

- C -

I'd like to know where you can point to myself or anybody else for that matter who has said they are writing off the season and can't win it all. Don't take criticism so personally that you twist peoples words so you can make your point. Hardly anybody has suggested the extremes you are putting out there...benching, or that our season is over.

Again, I don't give a rats you know what about a list...for every "star" QB you put on a list, a monkey with patience and a desire to show how right he is on the internet and knows how to google could pull up 20 guys who didn't get to that Steve Young/Peyton Manning/Joe Montana level. So really, put all the lists up you want, it doesn't mean anything because he isn't any of those guys.

As for the jump balls...It is what it is. If you have to rely on just throwing the ball up against 0 coverage and get bailed out by PI's, that's cool and I'll gladly take them. They don't work all the time however as we found out today...gonna have to sit in there, not panic and go through a progression or 2. Others do it but not to that extent, almost all of our offense was as a result of it. I'll take it, but that is not something you can count on. That's all I'm saying.

[Sua Sponte]

No need to bench Flacco, but work is needed. In the mean time get back to running the ball, we only have some of the best backs in the game with Rice and Willis. McClain pounds the short yards and is no slouch.

we are not the Saints or Colts, we do need to be able to throw the ball when needed, when teams are playing us to run and that is when we throw the ball, just like Monday night against the Jets, they lined up stacking the box and we hit guys over the top. Don't force the shit though, Cam needs to cut the bull shit, if he thought that this game was going to be a shot out, well he was wrong and should have realized that in the first half.

[TTRaven]

Flacco has attempted 77 passes in 2 games. Flacco's 77th pass attempt in 2009 came in week 4 against NE. Cam is going away from what has worked the past 2 years. We need to get back to Ravens football before it's too late.

[Sephy]

Flacco has attempted 77 passes in 2 games. Flacco's 77th pass attempt in 2009 came in week 4 against NE. Cam is going away from what has worked the past 2 years. We need to get back to Ravens football before it's too late.

And to think, by that game, people were crying we were getting too pass happy then :laugh:

Can't say I disagree from game 1, considering we couldn't run, but we had way too much success on the ground today to be giving Rice the ball 16 times. And what, one attempted screen? Flacco sucked today, but that's on Cam. Just poor gameplanning.

[Rza52]

I'll tell it like it is and it won't take 15 posts on the same thread or 6 paragraphs.

The fact that Flacco now needs apologists is a huge concern. This is how Boller's shit started and went on for a few seasons. Joe needs to pull his head out of his ass. He is an average looking QB who has had some signs of being good but lacks consistency or the ability to get it done in the clutch.

He's not great and right now he isn't even good. We'll settle for good, so let's just stay real far away from elite QB talk. We're all watching the same games so don't piss on me and tell me it's raining.

[StingerNLG]

Woah woah...

1) We DID beat one of those teams. The other, we were close, potentially would have without bullshit penalties (potentially, and no I'm not blaming those on our loss), and did it with two road games in six days. I don't think anyone here really appreciates how difficult that is.

2) Flacco was one of the reasons we won that game against the Jets, not one of the reasons we almost lost. He had one awful fumble, one pick which may or may not have been his fault, one bad miss of McClain wide open in the end zone, and looked actually pretty darn good against a great pass defense the rest of the game. A pass defense, btw, that just trounced Tom Brady who needed a sick one-handed grab by Moss to make his stats even a bit respectable. Flacco converted 9 of 14 3rd downs, including 7 of 7+ yards. He made some awesome throws in that game, including several in the face of enormous pressure.

Really? Come on, let's call that game as it is. Many of those 3rd down conversions also came on penalties by the Jets, like the 3rd and 30. The ONLY thing the Ravens offense did in that game was keep the defense rested.

And let's also remember that the Jets offense got trucked by our defense. If their offense plays anywhere NEAR the way they played against the Patriots today, they win that game.

Flacco made a couple of good throws, yes. But he didn't look that good against the Jets defense. And throws like the one over McClains head in the endzone, or the pick into triple coverage at the goaline, are some of what kept that game as close as it was just as much as Heap dropping a pass in the endzone.


He had one awful game today. There's no one debating that. But sorry, one game isn't indicative of a trend. And every QB makes mistakes, often consistently over a couple game stretch. I've gone to great lengths to prove that. And until someone can prove that wrong, everyone here should calm down and wait to see how he performs these next few games.

No, of course one game isn't a trend. But a mediocre playoffs into a very mediocre preseason, into a mediocre 1st game, into a very very bad 2nd game? And again, watching the same problems he's had since starting which is being ignored in this discussion I'm a bit worried about the offense's ability to score points.



If Flacco's throwing 50% with 3 TDs and 13 INTs after week six, then yeah, we should all be really concerned and maybe start talking about making a change.

But I'll also be downright SHOCKED if he is. In fact, I would wager that he has at least as many TDs as INTs for the season by the end of week six.

- C -

Those are pretty lofty goals there. Not even Kyle Boller to his worst critics ever had a stretch of games that bad. And no one is expecting Joe Flacco to. That's borderline strawman. And I'm not even saying bench him. But if we're sitting at 2-3 coming out of the Broncos game, and the offense is playing like it has recently, how do you not even think about it?

[Lee Van Cleef]

Don't excuse that awful performance.

He may come good for the rest of the season, and that's all we can hope for now, but that performance was appalling.

[RavensNTerps]

That makes for a really nice sound bite, but simply isn't true.



What? do you watch the game? I'm not even the chicken little type, nor am I even close to giving up on Flacco nor would I wish Marc Bulger ever starting another NFL game on anybody after seeing him play a few last year.

But the one thing that no one can argue is that Flacco's mechanics look absolutely dreadful. I'm dead serious when I say that at least 2/3 of his passes he either flew flat-footed or off of his back foot yesterday. He didn't consistently, if at all, step in to the pocket to make strong throws. And this isn't a problem that started yesterday.

[psuasskicker]

Sure bad games happen to the Elites but great games also happen to the Elites. Great games meaning 400+ or 4 td passes or 2 minutes drives to win games. Flacco lacks the great games in addition to his bad games. I will give Joe the potential to be a good QB but he hasn't shown any evidence yet to indicate he might someday be Elite.

To say Favre also had bad days to somehow support Joe has potential to be Elite is seriously fallacious thinking.

So you've simply chosen to forget about the 11 games in which Joe's thrown for > 100 QB rating, including vs. Chicago where he threw 4 TDs? How 'bout the opener last year where he was under 100 but still threw for over 300 yards and 3 TDs?

Oh, I forgot. Those games don't count. They're part of that McNabb haterism "the only games that count are the ones I remember."

- C -

[psuasskicker]

I'd like to know where you can point to myself or anybody else for that matter who has said they are writing off the season and can't win it all. Don't take criticism so personally that you twist peoples words so you can make your point.

You need to reread some of the posts around here. Pyite at the very least said exactly this.

- C -

[Raveninwoodlawn]

You need to reread some of the posts around here. Pyite at the very least said exactly this.

- C -

So why not point to Pyite instead of myself and making it seem like half the board wants him benched?

There are maybe 4 people who have done so and frankly, there is nothing you can post that will change their opinions so why get so worked up about. Anybody that knows football knows it is not time to give up on him and he still has time. They also would have every right to be concerned with the apparent lack of progress so far in year 3...from camp to game 2.

We'll see and we should all be rooting for him to make the leap soon...none of us want to go through the division that QB play has caused over the years among the fans again.

[NCRAVEN]

So you've simply chosen to forget about the 11 games in which Joe's thrown for > 100 QB rating, including vs. Chicago where he threw 4 TDs? How 'bout the opener last year where he was under 100 but still threw for over 300 yards and 3 TDs?

Oh, I forgot. Those games don't count. They're part of that McNabb haterism "the only games that count are the ones I remember."

- C -

No one is forgetting those. The argument has been and still is to this point in his career, Joe is good against bum teams (bears of 09, lions, chiefs, browns) and shits the bed when it matters, Colts, Steelers, Bengals etc...

[Galen Sevinne]

So you've simply chosen to forget about the 11 games in which Joe's thrown for > 100 QB rating, including vs. Chicago where he threw 4 TDs? How 'bout the opener last year where he was under 100 but still threw for over 300 yards and 3 TDs?

Oh, I forgot. Those games don't count. They're part of that McNabb haterism "the only games that count are the ones I remember."

- C -

Ok right he had one game out of 39 that reaches my definition of an Elite QB. Again, i think Joe is and can continue to be a good QB but many of us were hoping to see a top 5 like QB where Joe is looking more like a top 20 maybe top 15 QB. It seems like you are trying to build a case that there is evidence Joe is becoming an elite QB based mainly on other already agreed upon Elite QBs also having shitty games. I am not sure if that is sound logic.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[btownraven]

PSU - great post. Thank you for the research and well thought-out analysis.

I don't think PSU is saying that Joe is going to be great or even that he is going to be fine. It's obvious that he's struggling now and it appears that teams have found his "kryptonite" - the Cover 2. It also appears he's taken a step back with his mechanics.

What I got out of this post is that we shouldn't jump to the other conclusion either - that Flacco is going to be a bust. I very much remember Manning's 4th year struggles - it was one of his multi-interception games that led to the famous "playoffs?!" press conference by Mora. And don't forget it was after Brees' third season that San Diego decided to draft Phillip Rivers.

If Flacco continues to struggle this badly against Cover-2 the Ravens are going to have a tough decision. It looks like the Ravens' defense might be even better than we thought. With Rice and the receiving weapons we have a guy like Bulger with his quick release might be a better formula to win now.

Going against Pittsburgh and New England over the next 4 weeks will tell us everything we need to know about Flacco and THIS year. If he struggles in those games with the same issues then it might be time to make a change.

[elland]

No one is forgetting those. The argument has been and still is to this point in his career, Joe is good against bum teams (bears of 09, lions, chiefs, browns) and shits the bed when it matters, Colts, Steelers, Bengals etc...

Joe was hardly the reason why we lost to Vikes, Pats and Steelers last season. He was more like a reason why we were competing in those games.

Not sure why he and our Offense coaches has problems with Cincy and Colts, since forever.

And PSU.. Agreed.

[NCRAVEN]

PSU - great post. Thank you for the research and well thought-out analysis.

I don't think PSU is saying that Joe is going to be great or even that he is going to be fine. It's obvious that he's struggling now and it appears that teams have found his "kryptonite" - the Cover 2. It also appears he's taken a step back with his mechanics.

What I got out of this post is that we shouldn't jump to the other conclusion either - that Flacco is going to be a bust. I very much remember Manning's 4th year struggles - it was one of his multi-interception games that led to the famous "playoffs?!" press conference by Mora. And don't forget it was after Brees' third season that San Diego decided to draft Phillip Rivers.

If Flacco continues to struggle this badly against Cover-2 the Ravens are going to have a tough decision. It looks like the Ravens' defense might be even better than we thought. With Rice and the receiving weapons we have a guy like Bulger with his quick release might be a better formula to win now.

Going against Pittsburgh and New England over the next 4 weeks will tell us everything we need to know about Flacco and THIS year. If he struggles in those games with the same issues then it might be time to make a change.

OK I agree with a lot of this post. One thing is I don't think anyone is saying Flacco is a bust, moreso with your point about all the weapons, can we really wait to see if Bulger might be a better option after those games? Not sure what everyone else thinks here, my point (not sure if I have tried to make this one yet) Is that Flacco given his past performances against good teams... he should be on a VERY short leash and the Ravens should still be a run first team.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Only a select few are declaring him a bust and demanding that he be benched in 2 weeks...on this board at least.

I do think he is getting close to that point in a career where you can say, he is what he is...which at this point I think is a solid, average NFL starter. He hasn't reached that point yet though and he won't reach it in a couple weeks either.

But to brush off concerns as if they are figments of everybody's imagination are as rediculous as the fans demanding that we bench him next week and calling him a bust.

We'll see, he knows he needs to play better, and hopefully Cam stops acting like we are the 92 Oilers running the run and shoot and realizes that while Boldin/Mason/TJ are a good trio, our best offensive player by a significant margin is Ray Rice. McClain and McGahee aren't chopped liver either and both should be given carries...more than 2 or 3 a game.

[psuasskicker]

Really? Come on, let's call that game as it is. Many of those 3rd down conversions also came on penalties by the Jets, like the 3rd and 30.

There were other conversions that were from penalties, but on attempts where there were no penalties, Flacco was 9/14 with 9 conversions. The penalty conversions don't count in the stats I gave.


Flacco made a couple of good throws, yes. But he didn't look that good against the Jets defense. And throws like the one over McClains head in the endzone, or the pick into triple coverage at the goaline, are some of what kept that game as close as it was just as much as Heap dropping a pass in the endzone.

First, Tom Brady didn't look good against that team either. The only reason he had two TD passes is cause Moss made an absolutely unbelievable catch on a ball no receiver has business catching.

Second, the miss to McClain had no impact on the outcome of the game given that McGahee put the ball in the end zone one play later. I'm not arguing that wasn't a horrible throw, it was. But it certainly had FAR less to do with the outcome of the game being close than Heap's.


But if we're sitting at 2-3 coming out of the Broncos game, and the offense is playing like it has recently, how do you not even think about it?

Maybe. Cross that bridge when we come to it. But that's sort of the point. There are a lot of people on this board not willing to wait that long, and that's a sharp over-reaction to what happened yesterday.

Not saying you're one of them...you're not. But others certainly are. That's the overreaction that makes me pretty ill.


So why not point to Pyite instead of myself and making it seem like half the board wants him benched?

There are maybe 4 people who have done so

heh...

I didn't make anything seem like half the board was saying it. But I did call you out for it and I apologize cause I don't think you actually did claim we're dead in the water this season.

That said, there are multiple people that have, and that talk needs to stop pretty much immediately, cause it's ridiculous.

Sorry for calling you out.


No one is forgetting those. The argument has been and still is to this point in his career, Joe is good against bum teams (bears of 09, lions, chiefs, browns) and shits the bed when it matters, Colts, Steelers, Bengals etc...

Already disproven on other threads. Flacco has in fact had success against several very good teams, but there are people here simply unwilling to admit it.

'08 Phins
'09 Vikes
'09 Steelers
'09 Chargers
'09 Patriots
'08 Eagles
'08 Titans
Combined 135/222 (61%) for 1,704 yds (7.7 YPA), 11 TDs and 2 INTs in those games.

Some of those we lost, but certainly not because of Flacco. "Games Flacco plays against good teams" are not simply "Games against good teams that Flacco lost and had a bad QB rating"...they include the ones where he actually played well; just like games that the other 52 Ravens that make up this team lost where Flacco played well against a good team should be included.

Making up cool sound bytes to try to drive a point home only really works if the sound byte actually turns out to be true. That one isn't, so stop touting it.

- C -

[NCRAVEN]

Already disproven on other threads. Flacco has in fact had success against several very good teams, but there are people here simply unwilling to admit it.

'08 Phins
'09 Vikes
'09 Steelers
'09 Chargers
'09 Patriots
'08 Eagles
'08 Titans
Combined 135/222 (61%) for 1,704 yds (7.7 YPA), 11 TDs and 2 INTs in those games.

Some of those we lost, but certainly not because of Flacco. "Games Flacco plays against good teams" are not simply "Games against good teams that Flacco lost and had a bad QB rating"...they include the ones where he actually played well; just like games that the other 52 Ravens that make up this team lost where Flacco played well against a good team should be included.

Making up cool sound bytes to try to drive a point home only really works if the sound byte actually turns out to be true. That one isn't, so stop touting it.

- C -

I can admit he has had some success against good teams.

My point is I feel he has had more bad games against good teams then he has had success against the same teams.

You slightly over-reacted at other over-reacting to his bad game and pick 7 games out of 34 to say "hey he is gonna be elite". I am not saying he is not going to be good or elite or whatever, Just he needs to be on a short leash cause in big games he has either done enough not to lose or cost the team the game. Joe has yet to have a big game put on his shoulders and not crap the bed. Combined stats are great and all but when called upon to win the bigger games he has not come through, just needs a shorter leash is all I am saying.

[RavensNTerps]

There were other conversions that were from penalties, but on attempts where there were no penalties, Flacco was 9/14 with 9 conversions. The penalty conversions don't count in the stats I gave.



First, Tom Brady didn't look good against that team either. The only reason he had two TD passes is cause Moss made an absolutely unbelievable catch on a ball no receiver has business catching.

Second, the miss to McClain had no impact on the outcome of the game given that McGahee put the ball in the end zone one play later. I'm not arguing that wasn't a horrible throw, it was. But it certainly had FAR less to do with the outcome of the game being close than Heap's.



Maybe. Cross that bridge when we come to it. But that's sort of the point. There are a lot of people on this board not willing to wait that long, and that's a sharp over-reaction to what happened yesterday.

Not saying you're one of them...you're not. But others certainly are. That's the overreaction that makes me pretty ill.



heh...

I didn't make anything seem like half the board was saying it. But I did call you out for it and I apologize cause I don't think you actually did claim we're dead in the water this season.

That said, there are multiple people that have, and that talk needs to stop pretty much immediately, cause it's ridiculous.

Sorry for calling you out.



Already disproven on other threads. Flacco has in fact had success against several very good teams, but there are people here simply unwilling to admit it.

'08 Phins
'09 Vikes
'09 Steelers
'09 Chargers
'09 Patriots
'08 Eagles
'08 Titans
Combined 135/222 (61%) for 1,704 yds (7.7 YPA), 11 TDs and 2 INTs in those games.

Some of those we lost, but certainly not because of Flacco. "Games Flacco plays against good teams" are not simply "Games against good teams that Flacco lost and had a bad QB rating"...they include the ones where he actually played well; just like games that the other 52 Ravens that make up this team lost where Flacco played well against a good team should be included.

Making up cool sound bytes to try to drive a point home only really works if the sound byte actually turns out to be true. That one isn't, so stop touting it.

- C -

IMO, like I said, my problem isn't hte stats or even the poor throws. ALL QBs have bad games and make bad decisions and throw bad passes. That doesn't concern me. Cincy's D is legit (there's a reason I drafted them in fantasy!).

But the mechanical issues aren't a 1 time deal and they aren't really better when he's having GOOD games. I think this in large part explains the inconsistencies.

[psuasskicker]

I can admit he has had some success against good teams.

That's a start, because you weren't doing so a little while ago.


My point is I feel he has had more bad games against good teams then he has had success against the same teams.

Yeah. Good teams tend to do that, even to good players.


You slightly over-reacted at other over-reacting to his bad game and pick 7 games out of 34 to say "hey he is gonna be elite".

No, you're wrong.

1) Don't act like those 7 are the only seven he's played or that the 34 he's played are all against good teams. I count somewhere between 15 and 20 against good teams, and some of those games that I didn't count in the seven were games where he played mediocre...not good but not bad.

2) I never said "hey he is gonna be elite." I said that even the elite QBs have gone through rough stretches, and therefore the overreaction is out of line.


I am not saying he is not going to be good or elite or whatever, Just he needs to be on a short leash cause in big games he has either done enough not to lose or cost the team the game. Joe has yet to have a big game put on his shoulders and not crap the bed.

And once again, as shown previously, this point is completely wrong. Nevermind the fact that he's had very good games against good teams in winning efforts. However, you are seriously suggesting that the missed 44 yd FG against the Vikings last year and the 4th down dropped pass that hit Mark Clayton in the chest in New England was just Joe crapping the bed? "I can't believe that bum led us down the field in the closing minutes of those games and then purposely Voo-Doo dolled our kicker and receiver to cause us to lose those games! What a worthless QB!"

Yeah. That makes PERFECT sense. I totally see where you're coming from.

:eyes:

- C -

[NCRAVEN]

And once again, as shown previously, this point is completely wrong. Nevermind the fact that he's had very good games against good teams in winning efforts. However, you are seriously suggesting that the missed 44 yd FG against the Vikings last year and the 4th down dropped pass that hit Mark Clayton in the chest in New England was just Joe crapping the bed? "I can't believe that bum led us down the field in the closing minutes of those games and then purposely Voo-Doo dolled our kicker and receiver to cause us to lose those games! What a worthless QB!"

Yeah. That makes PERFECT sense. I totally see where you're coming from.

:eyes:

- C -

Dude seriously... why are you over-reacting so much. Take some prozac.

You are either putting words in my mouth,twisting my words, over-reacting or using extreme sarcasm to act like I am suggesting he is worthless or has never done any good at all. Uh, settle down Beavis.

Here is what I am saying. Flacco has had okay games but more often than not when the pressure for him to win the big games, he has not come thru. He needs a shorter leash because he is not at the point to be the leader of the team and have the game put on his shoulders, does he have okay stats against okay teams, sure. Can you point to a game or games that he has won when we needed him and not done what he did yesterday or against previous Bungels games or Steelers games or Packers games? Can you?

My point is, he is not elite or even at level to have a game put squarely on his shoulders. I feel they need to go back to the '08 model where he was asked to just do enough to not lose or just enough to win.

[psuasskicker]

You're talking yourself in circles.


Joe has yet to have a big game put on his shoulders and not crap the bed.


Flacco has had okay games but more often than not when the pressure for him to win the big games, he has not come thru.

Those posts are almost within one hour of each other. Make up your mind. Either he's had some good games against some good teams, or he's always crapping the bed against them.

And can I name one? Sure. I've already done that. Go back and reread my list and tell me which of those we won. Don't act like Joe didn't have a major hand in winning those games. The definition of having a big game get put on your shoulders and coming up with a win is not "throw a game-winning touchdown pass in the final minute." It can and does include doing things like making sure we matched pace with the Chargers last year in a tough road game on a day where our defense got eaten alive save one play at the end.

It also SHOULD include games like the Vikings and Patriots games where he did everything he had to do to win, and was let down by other team members. Sometimes great players do great things to win great games and yet still lose because someone else cost them.

And we should never want him to have to be able to take the entire team on his shoulders the way a Peyton Manning used to do in the early '00s. Cause that's the sign of us having a bad team around him.

- C -

[NCRAVEN]

You're talking yourself in circles.





Those posts are almost within one hour of each other. Make up your mind. Either he's had some good games against some good teams, or he's always crapping the bed against them.

And can I name one? Sure. I've already done that. Go back and reread my list and tell me which of those we won. Don't act like Joe didn't have a major hand in winning those games. The definition of having a big game get put on your shoulders and coming up with a win is not "throw a game-winning touchdown pass in the final minute." It can and does include doing things like making sure we matched pace with the Chargers last year in a tough road game on a day where our defense got eaten alive save one play at the end.

It also SHOULD include games like the Vikings and Patriots games where he did everything he had to do to win, and was let down by other team members. Sometimes great players do great things to win great games and yet still lose because someone else cost them.

And we should never want him to have to be able to take the entire team on his shoulders the way a Peyton Manning used to do in the early '00s. Cause that's the sign of us having a bad team around him.

- C -

The can be within 5 minutes of each other I don't give a crap.. They are not the same thing, and somehow showing even if I was indecisive doesn't somehow miraculously prove your point, which I am not even sure your trying to make one.

" Don't act like Joe didn't have a major hand in winning those games."

Thank you!!!!, he has not squarely won a game. He has had a hand in winning those games, which like I have said numerous times, the leash needs to be shortened cause he can have a hand in winning those games but HE HAS NOT (WHEN ASKED) HAD A GAME PUT SQUARELY ON HIS AND SHOULDERS COME THRU. shorten the leash and let them team carry him as he develops, not the other way around cause it hasn't happened yet...

[ravenwoman]

I have been trying to put into words what Joe lacked yesterday. He is obviously a hard working intelligent player who studies the game.

However, the one thing that bothers me more than anything else (and maybe we don't see it on the TV broadcast) is after a series, I see him get a cup of Gatorade and sit down. He is not studying pictures, or gathering his receivers on the sidelines to make adjustments. Carson Palmer did this yesterday; Peyton Manning does it all the time; even Ben Rothlisberger does it. It is one of the qualities that makes a great leader.

He has to learn to take charge of the offense and make it his own. Ray Lewis does it on the defense and has done it since his rookie year.

That inspires confidence with everyone around you and with confidence, you have performance. Your QB has to have the confidence and ability to bring you back in the 4th quarter to win games. I haven't seen that in Flacco in a very long time.

[Mwjergs]

"Ok, so we're clear though; is this the way we are going to basically judge things now? "Well, we played like this against two playoff defenses".

Well in order to be a team that wants to contend for the Super Bowl, shouldn't we be able to BEAT a team with a playoff defense? If this is the rationale we're going with, it's going to be a long season."



Of course and we beat one this season. No doubt you'll argue that the offense didn't do much to beat the Jets and I'd disagree.

But there are so many people who post comments about Flacco's faults and ineptitude yet totally discount that another high quality opponent is staring at them across the field. That's just foolish.

You said you don't want to bench him so what's your point? Are you just worried that he's not the long term answer? If so then what? That won't be solved this season.

So you wait until next week and see if he improves and he'll get another test on the road against Pittsburgh.

You want your leaders to play well every game no matter who the opponent is but sometimes it doesn't work out that way. Ask Tom Brady about his day against Rexy's Jets yesterday. It sucked.

[psuasskicker]

The can be within 5 minutes of each other I don't give a crap.. They are not the same thing

Okay buddy, whatever you say. :eyes:


Thank you!!!!, he has not squarely won a game.

LOL

"Keyshawn can't throw the ball to Keyshawn!"

There's 11 guys out there on the football field. Last I checked, there isn't any player in the NFL that has "squarely won a game" by himself. Ridiculous assertion.

I'm finished with this conversation. It's gone beyond reality.

- C -

[NCRAVEN]

Okay buddy, whatever you say. :eyes:



LOL

"Keyshawn can't throw the ball to Keyshawn!"

There's 11 guys out there on the football field. Last I checked, there isn't any player in the NFL that has "squarely won a game" by himself. Ridiculous assertion.

I'm finished with this conversation. It's gone beyond reality.

- C -

Are you finished with the conversation because you realize I am not saying he needs to be benched like others, you over-reacted to what I was saying and can't prove what I am saying wrong. If you could you wouldn't be finished with it.

"There's 11 guys out there on the football field. Last I checked, there isn't any player in the NFL that has "squarely won a game" by himself. Ridiculous assertion."

Again with the extreme sarcasm and twisting words. You know damn well I am not saying he needs to hike the ball to himself, block for himself by himself and throw the ball himself to himself.

[psuasskicker]

Pretty sure I have no idea what you're saying then, since he had a pretty big part in winning those games I listed that we won, and did everything he could have been asked to do in two of the losses. So either he has taken the team on his shoulders and lifted them up for big wins in big games, or he hasn't cause he hasn't done every single job on the football field that the other 21 starters are expected to do.

Either way I don't care anymore. Lotta people are completely misreading what I've been writing anyway. Classic message board mentality...it's not worth my getting worked up over.

- C -

[NCRAVEN]

Either way I don't care anymore. Lotta people are completely misreading what I've been writing anyway. Classic message board mentality...it's not worth my getting worked up over.

- C -

And... now we agree. Till next time, when hopefully we can agree from the beginning, good sir.

[CR_Dingley]

Reading that list def relaxed me alot!!