Do you think Flacco can be an elite QB?

[TTRaven]

Do you honestly believe Flacco can be an elite QB?

IMO Flacco does not have the ability to be an elite QB. Elite QB's are very rare(unless you're John Clayton and think half the league is elite). I view Flacco as an Eli Manning type QB. Not elite, but a solid franchise QB. 3,400-3,800 yards, 24-27 td's 15-17 int's a season.

[psuasskicker]

"Can?" Sure. So could Josh Freeman and Mark Sanchez.

"Will?" Entirely different question.

- C -

[Raveninwoodlawn]

"Can?" Sure. So could Josh Freeman and Mark Sanchez.

"Will?" Entirely different question.

- C -

Yup.

[Rayvens52]

Do you honestly believe Flacco can be an elite QB?

IMO Flacco does not have the ability to be an elite QB. Elite QB's are very rare(unless you're John Clayton and think half the league is elite). I view Flacco as an Eli Manning type QB. Not elite, but a solid franchise QB. 3,400-3,800 yards, 24-27 td's 15-17 int's a season.

I will take Eli's Super Bowl ring also...Hey he has as many rings as his Elite QB brother.

[ravensnhokies]

I think Joe can become an elite QB, but my confidence on that happening is only 25%, so I'd prefer a poll with more choices

How about...

At what level of NFL QB will Joe Flacco ultimately attain:

1) 2 more years of starting but it is determined that he's only a lifetime backup
2) Average Starter
3) Above Average Starter
4) Elite QB

[crazyraven]

The season just started and every one is getting nuts over a few bad plays. In the grand scheme the ravens are 1-1 and they can recover...dont write your suiside letters just yet, OKAY! Flacco is going to fine!

[psuasskicker]

At what level of NFL QB will Joe Flacco ultimately attain:

1) 2 more years of starting but it is determined that he's only a lifetime backup
2) Average Starter
3) Above Average Starter
4) Elite QB

My guess here is he rounds out to be an above avg starter. I'd guess somewhere between 10th and 15th in a variety of passing categories each year, probably somewhere in the 60%, 3,800 yds, 22 TDs, 15 INTs type numbers. I wouldn't cry over that, either.

- C -

[Sua Sponte]

I would go with 3 Above average.

It all really depends on what you can call elite.

An elite QB should be able to put the O and D on it's back and win games.

Brees
Manning
Farve in his prime and ok last year.
Rodgers
Lady Brady
Rivers (maybe)

Having an Elite QB helps win, but does not win championships alone.
An above avergae QB with a top 5 Defense, now we are talking.

[TTRaven]

The season just started and every one is getting nuts over a few bad plays. In the grand scheme the ravens are 1-1 and they can recover...dont write your suiside letters just yet, OKAY! Flacco is going to fine!

This has very little to do with what Joe has done so far this season. This poll is more about how good people think Joe can be throughout his career.

I agree that Flacco is going to be fine. I just don't think he'll ever be on the level of Manning, Brees, and Brady. Many fans seem to think Joe can be on the level of those 3.

[crazyraven]

Who cares if he will be an elite QB? why bring this up right after a divison loss?

Why cant we just hope we can get to the superbowl with Joe Flacco. Shit we got to the superbowl withTrent Dilfer, a backup at best.

Lets chill out and let the team do its thing this season and lets please let the likes of Peyton, Brees, farve or whoever else do their thing.

[Lee Van Cleef]

Sure he can if he can develop well.

He can't be a chicken sandwich though. He can put himself between some salad and bread, but he still wouldn't be a chicken sandwich.

[trailhiker85]

I think Joe can become an elite QB, but my confidence on that happening is only 25%, so I'd prefer a poll with more choices

How about...

At what level of NFL QB will Joe Flacco ultimately attain:

1) 2 more years of starting but it is determined that he's only a lifetime backup
2) Average Starter
3) Above Average Starter
4) Elite QB


I like this much better than some black-or-white question that basically asks if he is either elite or not. There's still the subjective aspect of that wacky word "elite", but you temper that by having an "above average" category.

Joe could end up being any of the above, but if I had to pick amongst the choices I'd go with "above average starter".

My only real fear is that we may run short of Joe Flacco threads.

[The Fanatic]

Do you honestly believe Flacco can be an elite QB?

IMO Flacco does not have the ability to be an elite QB. Elite QB's are very rare(unless you're John Clayton and think half the league is elite). I view Flacco as an Eli Manning type QB. Not elite, but a solid franchise QB. 3,400-3,800 yards, 24-27 td's 15-17 int's a season.

Personally, I don't care if he is an "elite" quarterback.
He doesn't need to be either.
The numbers you threw out there should be sufficient enough to get the job done with the type of defense we play.
What we need him to be is a technically and mechanically sound QB that puts us in position to win games.
Right now, you got to question whether that's there or not.

Part of that is his coaching, and their ability to recognize what he can and cannot do while working on his mechanics, etc.
It also falls on them to recognize who and what we're playing against each week, and come up with a good game plan to utilize the talent on the entire offense, as well as protect them from their weaknesses.

That didn't happen yesterday either.

[Purpleguy]

Right now I think there are only two QBs in the league that are truly "elite", Tom Brady and Peyton Manning. I don't think Flacco will ever rise to that level, but I do think he can be a very good "franchise" QB. Sorta in the same mold as Carson Palmer and TheRapist.

[Dade]

The season just started and every one is getting nuts over a few bad plays. In the grand scheme the ravens are 1-1 and they can recover...dont write your suiside letters just yet, OKAY! Flacco is going to fine!

Your name maybe crazyraven, but thats the most sane post on this board since gameday.

[RAVENOUS52]

Purp, if you don't think that Drew Brees is an elite QB then you must be sipping on that "purple drank" that has been made famous down South...:kewl:

[highwater]

I think the only reason we're talking about this is because Flacco just had the worst game of his career. But even the best QBs have had bad games -- I think Favre one year threw five interceptions in a playoff game. It happens.

This is a discussion we should be having two or three weeks from now, not after just two games.

[RAVENOUS52]

I think the only reason we're talking about this is because Flacco just had the worst game of his career. But even the best QBs have had bad games -- I think Favre one year threw five interceptions in a playoff game. It happens.

This is a discussion we should be having two or three weeks from now, not after just two games.

I think many here have seen this coming for awhile. Probably after the way Flack ended the season and underperformed in the Playoffs last year, then in the preseason and the opener against the Jets.

Never too soon to wonder what's up with the leader of your favorite team's offense.

[baltimore_hokie]

This sudden questioning of Flacco's status as our long-term QB is idiotic. It reminds me of O's fans being ready to cut Adam Jones loose after the first month of the season. Corey Patterson hit .300 over 3 games, and all of a sudden he can be the CF of the future (...cough...Bulger...).

Fast forward a few months, and AJ is hitting in the mid-.280's with almost 20 HR.

It's a good thing message board posters don't run professional franchises, although you'd have to wonder if that's how the O's and Buccos got to the point they're at today. It's the sports equivalent of being an impulse buying hoarder.

[CRZA938]

I am not panicking about Joe, but I would like to see him display more consistent mechanics. He has all of the ability in the world, but at times (like any young qb) he still locks onto recievers and doesn't seem to quickly progress through his reads.

The good news is that we can win with Joe as is, BUT he has got to be able to make a few plays over the middle when it counts in the playoffs.

[Galen Sevinne]

I think many here have seen this coming for awhile. Probably after the way Flack ended the season and underperformed in the Playoffs last year, then in the preseason and the opener against the Jets.

Never too soon to wonder what's up with the leader of your favorite team's offense.

I felt ok about Flacco in the Jets game. I thought he demonstrated a command of the field and became stronger and more in charge as the game went on. If Mason doesn't pull up on the long pattern on the right sideline anad Heap makes the catch in the endzone, Flacco throws for 350 yds and 3 tds and things ar glorious. That being said he still sat back on his passes and had his typical accuracy problems.

I agree that for some of us this has been brewing since last season and it seems sacrilege to point out the truthfully pedestrian achievements of Flacco thus far.

I am apparently one of the few that really believe preseason games forshadow elements of the regular season. I am not talking about w's and l's or stats but the flow and momentum. After a whole offseason of prep, Flacco did not create flow nor momentum for me in the preseason.

I think in Baltimore, Flacco has benefited from a quarterback hungry audience. We have our team and we have Ray Lewis and we have an identity of a tough-nosed mauler team. Let's be real though, football loves their QB's and Baltimore has suffered ever since Bert Jones limped off the field holding his right shoulder as if it was about to fall off. We had hopes with Boller but that never panned and then comes Flacco. Oh Joey Flaccoh. A nice run against Cincy and a win in his debut ignited this town, Playoff wins in back to back years and we were openly admitting our man crushes to our boys. C'mon man, you know you would have bought that Joe Flacco playgirl after that first season.

Its been 39 games though and there isn't a shred of evidence of Joe Flacco being an elite QB. He hasn't performed well in the playoff games so many want to give him credit for. I can't think of one two minute drive where he put the ball in the endzone to win a game for us and I can think of a many games where opposing QBs have done that to us.

So to answer the question, "can Joe be an elite QB"? Well, forst define what you mean by elite. In my book elite means frequesntly throowing for 300+ yd games and occasionally having those sick 400+ yd games. frequently having 3 and 4 td games. And with all of that having a reputation for those late game drives to win. Flacco had two opportunities just this past week and in both he throws a pick.

So can he be elite? Sure. Do I think he will based on his 39 game body of work? Based soley on the evidence and not what I want to happen...no.

[jonboy79]

I felt ok about Flacco in the Jets game. I thought he demonstrated a command of the field and became stronger and more in charge as the game went on. If Mason doesn't pull up on the long pattern on the right sideline anad Heap makes the catch in the endzone, Flacco throws for 350 yds and 3 tds and things ar glorious. That being said he still sat back on his passes and had his typical accuracy problems.

I agree that for some of us this has been brewing since last season and it seems sacrilege to point out the truthfully pedestrian achievements of Flacco thus far.

I am apparently one of the few that really believe preseason games forshadow elements of the regular season. I am not talking about w's and l's or stats but the flow and momentum. After a whole offseason of prep, Flacco did not create flow nor momentum for me in the preseason.

I think in Baltimore, Flacco has benefited from a quarterback hungry audience. We have our team and we have Ray Lewis and we have an identity of a tough-nosed mauler team. Let's be real though, football loves their QB's and Baltimore has suffered ever since Bert Jones limped off the field holding his right shoulder as if it was about to fall off. We had hopes with Boller but that never panned and then comes Flacco. Oh Joey Flaccoh. A nice run against Cincy and a win in his debut ignited this town, Playoff wins in back to back years and we were openly admitting our man crushes to our boys. C'mon man, you know you would have bought that Joe Flacco playgirl after that first season.

Its been 39 games though and there isn't a shred of evidence of Joe Flacco being an elite QB. He hasn't performed well in the playoff games so many want to give him credit for. I can't think of one two minute drive where he put the ball in the endzone to win a game for us and I can think of a many games where opposing QBs have done that to us.

So to answer the question, "can Joe be an elite QB"? Well, forst define what you mean by elite. In my book elite means frequesntly throowing for 300+ yd games and occasionally having those sick 400+ yd games. frequently having 3 and 4 td games. And with all of that having a reputation for those late game drives to win. Flacco had two opportunities just this past week and in both he throws a pick.

So can he be elite? Sure. Do I think he will based on his 39 game body of work? Based soley on the evidence and not what I want to happen...no.

Look up Peyton's first two years, not entirely different looking then Joe's... well of course VErY different in the W/L category.

[TTRaven]

This sudden questioning of Flacco's status as our long-term QB is idiotic. It reminds me of O's fans being ready to cut Adam Jones loose after the first month of the season. Corey Patterson hit .300 over 3 games, and all of a sudden he can be the CF of the future (...cough...Bulger...).

Fast forward a few months, and AJ is hitting in the mid-.280's with almost 20 HR.

It's a good thing message board posters don't run professional franchises, although you'd have to wonder if that's how the O's and Buccos got to the point they're at today. It's the sports equivalent of being an impulse buying hoarder.

Who is questioning Flacco's status as our long term QB?

I think some of you missed the point of this thread. This isn't a bash Flacco thread. It's a simple question about how good people think Flacco can be.

Personally, I think it's a little unrealistic to think Flacco will ever be an elite QB(top 3 in the NFL). I still believe that he's a franchise QB though.

[Galen Sevinne]

Look up Peyton's first two years, not entirely different looking then Joe's... well of course VErY different in the W/L category.

Ok I did...I looked at the first 39 games of each just to compare. I doubt anyone would deny Manning the status of elite. W's and L's are dangerous because that is more team oriented than QB oriented. If you disagree I would ask you if you think Dilfer was "elite" during 2000?

So looking at my qualifications of elite being,

1. # of 300 yd and #400 yd games
2. # of 3TD + games
3. # of game winning 2 minute drives


Manning in his first 39 games had,

9 300+ yd. games and 2 400+ yd games
10 3 TD+ games

Flacco in his first 39 games had,

3 300+ yd. games and 0 400+ yd. games
2 3 td+ games

As far as 2 minutes drives for touchdowns to win, I know Flacco has zero...I would think Peyton had at least one of not a couple.

Those are pretty statistically significant differences and illustrate at least my side of the argument here.

In addition, Manningin his first three season had two 4000 yard seasons already and 85 touchdowns. Flacco through two season and two games has 36 touchdowns and obviously no 4000 yard seasons. Also quite a difference.

Looking at Manning's first 39 games and then first three seasons, I would say there was evidence one could argue in favor of future elite status.

[Purpleguy]

It's just ridiculous to even make any comparison to Peyton Manning. Manning is going to go down as unquestionably the greatest QB to ever play the game. That comes along once every 100 years or so.

[Galen Sevinne]

It's just ridiculous to even make any comparison to Peyton Manning. Manning is going to go down as unquestionably the greatest QB to ever play the game. That comes along once every 100 years or so.

Well I was asked to. Manning is an intersting case study though since there is no debate about his status of elite but also many will say Manning wasn't so great in his first two years but clearly he was already beginning to show his potential even in those early years.

[Sua Sponte]

I just watched the one lonely TD drive and guess what set-up the big passes to move the ball. Play Action Pass and why did we come back on the next drive and fall flat and the entire game. The run game sets up the pass. Flacco actually looked quick and made his reads and fired off of his front foot.

[Dade]

As far as 2 minutes drives for touchdowns to win, I know Flacco has zero...I would think Peyton had at least one of not a couple.

Well first of all the NFL counts a game winning drive for a QB regardless if it ends in a touchdown pass, rushing touchdown or FG. Just ask Tom Brady. Who's credited with 6 game winning drives in the post season and SB, but all 6 ended in FGs.

That being said Flacco has 4 game winning drives credited to him.

11/2/08 BAL @ CLE (Week 8)
1/10/09 BAL @ TEN (Divisional Round Playoffs)
9/13/09 KC @ BAL (Week 1)
11/29/09 PIT @ BAL (Week 11)

[psuasskicker]

Those are pretty statistically significant differences and illustrate at least my side of the argument here.

On top of the note that Flacco's had game winning drives already...

They really aren't "statistically significant," or at least not in a massive fashion. They might look it, but:
- Manning threw ~20% more passes than Flacco over their first two seasons.
- Manning was on a terrible team where he was asked to win games, while Flacco has been asked to be more of a role player.
- Manning had a horrendous running game his first two seasons. Faulk/James, yadda yadda, but most don't remember those guys were actually just mediocre runners. What made them great was the fact that they were also great receivers. The Colts rushing O was ranked 25th and 19th Peyton's first two years. Flacco's were ranked 4th and 5th.

And FWIW, of Manning's wins his first two seasons, only seven of them were games in which the final score made it even possible for him to drive the team down the field and go from a losing effort to a winning one in the final minutes of the game. Even if he did so with all of them, Flacco's got four according to Dade, so the statistical significance of that difference simply isn't there.

I'm not saying Flacco's the next Manning. Manning's an all time great. Odds are good no one will be as good as him for decades, if ever. But that's only part of the reason there's a sizable divergence in the numbers. Look at Joe's numbers vs. many other HoF QBs. There's not nearly as big a discrepancy.

I don't know that Flacco will ever really become elite. But I do think he's a very solid QB with a shot at turning elite. Jury's not out yet...won't be for another year or two at least. What we do know is that he's certainly no bust, and he's highly unlikely not to be an above average QB in this league for years.

- C -

[bmoreravengirl]

I think Joe can become an elite QB, but my confidence on that happening is only 25%, so I'd prefer a poll with more choices

How about...

At what level of NFL QB will Joe Flacco ultimately attain:

1) 2 more years of starting but it is determined that he's only a lifetime backup
2) Average Starter
3) Above Average Starter
4) Elite QB

With the defense we have, he doesn't need to be elite. Above-average starter would be just fine.

[ravensnhokies]

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but we can't assume our defense will be awesome every year. We might need Flacco to achieve that Elite status in the future if we want to be a Super Bowl caliber team with a Ravens defense that is only middle of the pack (Ray Ray will retire soon).

I don't think its ever fair to compare Flacco to Manning... Manning was a #1 pick with probably the best NFL ready QB pedigree coming out of college ever, other than coming up small in big games (which has followed him into the NFL) .. Colts were damn lucky they sucked in 1997 to have the opportunity to draft him. If the Ravens didnt come back from 9 pts in the 4th at the Giants and beat them by 1, JLew didnt return 2 punts back for TDs against the Seahawks to beat them by 7, Bam Morris didnt run wild against the Skins at Fedex and win by 3, and the Eagles miss a gimme FG in OT and win the game instead of tie.... Manning would have been a Raven in 1998. (I like revisionist history)

[RAVENOUS52]

For me none of these comparisons of Flacco against what other players from other eras with different teams and circumstances have done hold water.

I'm basing what I feel solely off of what I've seen from Flack throughout his career and nothing more. He doesn't seem to have progressed at all from last season, IMO. In his 3rd year and 39 games in, that should not be.

He still lacks the fire and leadership I saw last night from Drew Brees and (WTF?) Alex Smith as they lead their teams up the field in crunchtime. I'm talking about a confidence and a swagger that certain QBs display when the chips are down that makes you as a fan believe they can get the job done and instills confidence in their teammates.

So far I don't detect that with Joe. In fact I know I saw Anquan and TJ openly express their dissatisfaction with Flacco numerous times Sunday.

Not a good sign if two of your best new weapons already aren't happy with your performance.

On top of it all, I'm very concerned for Joe Flacco's safety and well-being. He seems to lose his pocket awareness at times, which leads to him needlessly taking a beating from the opposing defense. It only takes one good hit, no matter how tough he is, to end or permanently impair his career.

I'm a huge fan of Joe Flacco the person and still very hopeful that he can reach his full potential as a football player, so naturally I'd prefer he remain upright as much as possible instead of holding the ball too long and getting blasted. I know he's capable of using his feet sometimes, yet I rarely see it happen.

I think he "can" be elite, but at this rate, let's just say he hasn't shown me enough to put money on it.:(

[Sua Sponte]

I agree. ^

And where is the fire at, the WR's have Fire almost the entire defense has fire, but Joe just moseys on and off the field and goes to the bench. Somebody spike this guys gatorade with some caffine, he makes me want to fall a sleep at times and it shows on the field , he is slow making reads, he is slow with his drops, he is slow to escape pressure and make a play with his feet and his press conferences make me think he is slow (mentally) or on some sort of Volume or Xanac (downers).

[Galen Sevinne]

I agree. ^

And where is the fire at, the WR's have Fire almost the entire defense has fire, but Joe just mossies on and off the field and goes to the bench. Somebody spike this guys water with some caffine, he makes me want to fall a sleep at times and it shows on the field , he is slow making reads, he is slow with his drops, he is slow to escape pressure and make a play with his feet and his press conferences make me think he is slow (mentally) or on some sort of Volume or Xanac (downers).

that would be valium or xanax and I would highly doubt he is on a benzo out there playing QB.

watching that game last night where Smith took his team down against the defending SB champs to score 8 only to watch Brees get his boys in FG range to score 3 was amazing...all within two minutes. I need to see that out of Joe.

[Sua Sponte]

that would be valium or xanax and I would highly doubt he is on a benzo out there playing QB.

watching that game last night where Smith took his team down against the defending SB champs to score 8 only to watch Brees get his boys in FG range to score 3 was amazing...all within two minutes. I need to see that out of Joe.

Thanks GS, My pill vocab is a bit off these days. maybe to many in my prime. lol:261695:

Smith actually looked good, and minus a T.O or 2 they would probably have won that game. As I was watching and talking to my Dog, I kept saying stop going out and run some clock. After a few first downs they had plenty of time to misfire or go over the middle and clock the ball. I new as soon as the 2-pt conversion was good that they had left to much time for Brees to work his magic and boom there it is a FG to win.
I'll even settle for Smith's last drive (in regards to Flac) he took his team down the field to score with a 2:00 drill. I'm sure we probably would have worked the clock more. granted, butu Smith still looked good and keep his team alive until the last seconds.

[BertJonesMyHero]

I'm a Flacco fan but I must admit I'm starting to worry. Here is what I would have liked to seen from him after Sunday...

Remember when Vinny had that game against Houston? After the game He said he stunk, was embarrassed, and promised it would never happen again. Not long after that he ended up in the Pro Bowl. He obviously challenged himself and it worked.

The other thing that is a concern is the Joe Cool thing. When we win, it is neat. When he stinks, it just screams he looks lost. I'm almost rooting for him to scream and toss his helmet.

[RavensGrl]

I am apparently one of the few that really believe preseason games forshadow elements of the regular season. I am not talking about w's and l's or stats but the flow and momentum. After a whole offseason of prep, Flacco did not create flow nor momentum for me in the preseason.

I didn't watch most of the preseason games but this comment helps explain a comment that Boldin made after the Jets game that puzzled me. He said something to the effect of the offense still trying to gel. Now I can understand that if he just meant TJ because he just arrived a week or two before the season started. But other than that, I don't see why the offense would have be having issues getting on the same page when they (Flacco and Boldin) practiced together over the summer, had all of training camp and the preseason to "gel". Plus with Mason, Heap and Rice still an integral part of the offense, why would it need to take so much time for the offense to gel?

[Gwaihir]

There are 11 players on the offense and if you change even one of them it disrupts the whole chemistry, or "gelling" of the unit. Just the fact we went with Chester & Yanda on the line, disrupted the whole timing of the offense. Then we added Housh, none of this was practiced in the pre-season.

Not to mention, I heard Boldin in the off-season saying something, somewhere, to the effect of, "It really takes about a year for a quarterback & receiver to develope that special chemistry needed for timing plays and such. The receiver has to know where on the field he can be the most helpful/available to the quarterback, and the quarterback needs to know where the receiver likes to have the ball presented to him, etc."

That's's why Defenses are always ahead of Offenses this time of year. The chemistry, or gelling, of the offense takes time, and can really only be developed during game conditions.

[Stealthbirds80]

I just watched the one lonely TD drive and guess what set-up the big passes to move the ball. Play Action Pass and why did we come back on the next drive and fall flat and the entire game. The run game sets up the pass. Flacco actually looked quick and made his reads and fired off of his front foot.

Wasn't that the drive that we used the TE's? See the Bengals game against the Pats, they did the samething. Just that they did it all game.

[Sua Sponte]

Yes, Dickson had a big catch and YAC, and Heap had a big catch, but Rice started off running the rock 2 carries for 11 yards, which set-up the PA.

I have another question.
Did Cam run any shot-gun, I am trying to remember, but I can not think of any snaps being taking from the shot-gun and if there were it wasn't many. Wouldn't that make sense being that your line was getting pushed into the pocket.

[JimZipCode]

I thought Flacco was going to be an elite QB, until this past wkend. Now I'm on the ledge. Someone talk me down.