Why does Mcnair get a free pass?

[TTRaven]

I posted this over on the Ravens Insider board and got the usual childish responses. I figured I should post it over here and see what everyone thinks.


Why is Mcnair given a free pass for his poor performance today? Had that been Kyle Boller out there, this board would be swamped with threads trashing Boller. Why is there such a double standard when it comes to QB's here in Baltimore?

Now please don't give me that crap about Mcnair not knowing the playbook. He has had plenty of time by now to learn the system. It seemed like all the passes were headed in the direction they were supposed to go, but most were underthrown or overthrown. I know the line sucked today, but it sucked for every other QB that has been here.

Please lets try and keep this civil. I'm not trying to start a Boller war. I'm glad Mcnair is here and I know he is the better QB. Just a little curious as to why Mcnair is not being given the Boller treatment for having a Boller type game.

Here's to being 2-0 even if we beat 2 poor teams they are still NFL teams with NFL talent. Let's kick some clownie ass next Sunday!

I'm pretty sure you can imagine why I bolded what I did. Try and guess what the thread has/will turn into. Here's the link if you want to check out some of the responses:

http://mb14.scout.com/fravensinsiderfrm1.showMessage?topicID=45991.topic

[Mobtown]

Because they are not the same player and do not deserve to be judged by the same standards.

Steve = Proven winner
Kyle = Proven loser

[StingerNLG]

Kyle = Proven loser

Based on win/loss record? Errr.....

Come on, this crap gets rediculous every time it even comes up.

TTRaven, what did you expect? I didn't even click on the link and I could imagine what was being said. People forget McNair has been in the league 10 years. So this whole McNair=Proven Winner, Kyle=Proven Loser continues to be laughable. I'd hope in 10 years McNair could win something.

[Mobtown]

Based on win/loss record? Errr.....

Come on, this crap gets rediculous every time it even comes up.

It's a dumb comparison no matter what measure you use.

[Heap86]

McNair has had two games, Boller has had 3 years.

If he plays like he did today for the rest of the season, his free pass goes out the window.

McNair is a proven winner, who has not always looked great, but has gotten the job done.

[darb72]

Yet another in a long list of reasons I won't be posting on that board again.

The reason that most fans are going crazy is that it's just the second game. If he continues to suck, people are going to start fussing a little bit louder.

I'll flat out say McNair sucked today, and I'm not really surprised about it. I've told people for years that this system was a QB killer.
Last week the offense was responsible for 10 points.
This week they were responsible for 14.

However, we're winning thanks to the defense, and I'll take it. So I'm willing to give the offense two more weeks before I start getting ticked.

Now there are "fans" over there, and a few who unfortunatetly found their way over here, who simply hate Kyle Boller. McNair could go 0-14 the rest of the way with 50 INTS and these "fans" would still be singing his praises because he's not Kyle. That's where you get the double standard.

[StingerNLG]

It's a dumb comparison no matter what measure you use.

Nono, you said Kyle was a proven loser. I want to finally hear what this reasoning is. It can't be his win/loss record because he has more wins than losses. It can't be a season record because he's 5-4, 9-7, 4-4 respectively. I just want to know.

McNair is a 10 year vet. You can't compare Michel Vick to him either, or Eli Manning, or half the young QB's around the league.


McNair has had two games, Boller has had 3 years.

So the fact that he's been in the league 3 times longer than Boller doesn't mean anything?

[Mobtown]

Nono, you said Kyle was a proven loser. I want to finally hear what this reasoning is. It can't be his win/loss record because he has more wins than losses. It can't be a season record because he's 5-4, 9-7, 4-4 respectively. I just want to know.


For me it's the fact that Boller's best year (71.8QBR) is only slightly better than Mac's worst year (70.4QBR).

Add to that the intagible factors like leadership and you have no contest.

[Heap86]

So the fact that he's been in the league 3 times longer than Boller doesn't mean anything?


I love it how some of you guys dismiss the fact that McNair has played two regular season games with this team and has been in this system for 3 months. How many new QB's have looked good this season so far? Culpepper, Collins, Brees, Kitna? None of them have looked good, see the trend. McNair never got in sync with his new offense last year in Tennessee, it may take him most of this year to get on the same page.

I gave Boller his free pass the first 2 years of his career, but he still seemed to have the same problems year after year.

[StingerNLG]

For me it's the fact that Boller's best year (71.8QBR) is only slightly better than Mac's worst year (70.4QBR).

Add to that the intagible factors like leadership and you have no contest.

You're ducking the question again. You said Kyle was a proven loser. I've given you the only stats you can use to gauge that.

And you forgot to mention that Steve's first 2 years were on the bench learning how to play.

We know McNair is a proven winner. He's had 10 years to do it. That's not what you originally said though.

[darb72]

You're ducking the question again. You said Kyle was a proven loser. I've given you the only stats you can use to gauge that.

And you forgot to mention that Steve's first 2 years were on the bench learning how to play.
I honestly have no idea what you're arguing here Sting, but try bringing up McNairs third year stats.

That generally ticks the Haters off more than anything.:thumbup:

[StingerNLG]

How many new QB's have looked good this season so far? Culpepper, Collins, Brees, Kitna?

Culpepper will never be the same after that knee injury. And can you even name his receivers without looking them up? 7 sacks today. Sound like a familiar team?

Jon Kitna isn't as good as you think he is. One miracle year in Cincy was about it. But BTW Kitna was 23-30 with 230 yards today. He just couldn't throw touchdowns.

Brees just had a 26-41, 353 day with 2 TD's. I think he's acclimated.

And 2 games or 10 games, overthrowing and shorthopping your recievers, or leading them out of bounds, shouldn't happen if you're a 10 year vet. Now, to go with that, the offensive line gave him NO HELP. But I still to this day don't know why people expected that McNair would make Mike Flynn and Keydrick Vincent better players.

[Heap86]

Brees just had a 26-41, 353 day with 2 TD's. I think he's acclimated.

His QB rating was 67 last week against the Browns.

Weak argument, any idiot knows that QB's in new systems need time to get in sync with thier recievers, it just does'nt happen overnight. You figure just because McNair has been in the league for 12 years, he can pick up a new playbook and know it inside and out in 3 months. McNair was in a new Offense last year, and did'nt get a full grip on it until the middle of the season. Its a tough transition, its almost like being a rookie again, even McNair admitted that after he first came here.


And 2 games or 10 games, overthrowing and shorthopping your recievers, or leading them out of bounds, shouldn't happen if you're a 10 year vet. Now, to go with that, the offensive line gave him NO HELP. But I still to this day don't know why people expected that McNair would make Mike Flynn and Keydrick Vincent better players.

I guess you did'nt see Mark Brunell is his first year in Washington, he sucked, but after a year in one system, it seemed to click. Now he is in another new system, and sucking again.


Culpepper will never be the same after that knee injury. And can you even name his receivers without looking them up? 7 sacks today. Sound like a familiar team?

He had a serious knee injury, I guess Carson Palmer will never be the same either? Culpepper did not injure his throwing arm. And naming his recievers, Chris Chambers, Marty Booker and Randy McMichael, not a bad group.

[StingerNLG]

Oh I'm sorry Heap. I didn't realize how smart you were and how we were all idiots. Especially when you just summarily dismissed Brees's perfomance today. In synch overnight? Let me put those stats back up for you:

26-41, 353 day with 2 TD's. You think Brees could throw 353 yards out of synch with Joe Horn? But I get it, only an idiot yada-yada.

BTW not that I want to correct you or anything, because only an idiot wouldn't know this, but for getting acclimated to a new system last year, McNair's stat line was:

61.3% for 3161 6.64YPA 16TD/11INT 82.4 rating.

I could see where he was having trouble. His big problem last year was going 4-12. But as some have argued on the other board, he looked pretty good losing.


I guess you did'nt see Mark Brunell is his first year in Washington, he sucked, but after a year in one system, it seemed to click. Now he is in another new system, and sucking again.

So wait. Boller had a system change when Matt Cavanaugh was fired. But 9-7 was still all his fault. And you come up with Mark Brunell? I didn't realize a system could cause you to over and underthrow recievers and go -16 yards in 2 possessions. But silly me, I must be an idiot.


Culpepper did not injure his throwing arm.

But Brees did. Didn't have any problems today. Pennington twice and has been out for a good while. Hasn't had much problem throwing the ball.

And if you notice, Carson Palmer hasn't been sacked 7 times in a game since coming back.

Save the insults for YBR.

[TTRaven]

Weak argument, any idiot knows that QB's in new systems need time to get in sync with thier recievers, it just does'nt happen overnight.

It does when you've played with a WR for 11 years. Mcnair all of a sudden needs time to get in sync with Derrick Mason? He sure look in sync with these numbers:

Todd Heap 10 catches
Derrick Mason- 8 catches
Mark Clayton- 5 catches

Seems like he in sync with his receivers to me.

There's no reason to make excuses for Mcnair. He had a bad game and that's it. This thread wasn't started to debate between Mcnair and Boller as football players. We all know Mcnair is the better player. The main reason I started it was to compare how people react after a bad game by one of our QB's. It's amazing how different the opinions are. Some are sitting here saying Mcnair struggled, but we still won so we can forget the entire game. Had it been Boller some would be sitting here saying we won, but we have to bash Kyle Boller because he had a bad game.

[Heap86]

I could see where he was having trouble. His big problem last year was going 4-12. But as some have argued on the other board, he looked pretty good losing.

Yeah, Steve McNair was definatly the reason the Titans went 4-12 :grbac:

It had nothing to do with thier lack of Defense? I mean it must be McNair's inability to put up the 30+ points the Titans needed to win games last year.


And you come up with Mark Brunell? I didn't realize a system could cause you to over and underthrow recievers and go -16 yards in 2 possessions. But silly me, I must be an idiot.


I used Brunell because he was having the same problems McNair is having, did you happen to see the Redskins Offense in 04 with Brunell, the fans were calling for Ramsey almost the entire time he was a starter. He overthrew and underthrew passes just like McNair.


But Brees did. Didn't have any problems today. Pennington twice and has been out for a good while. Hasn't had much problem throwing the ball.


Why will Culpepper never be the same from a knee injury? Do you know this to be a proven fact? Players bounce back from serious injuries all the time.


Oh I'm sorry Heap. I didn't realize how smart you were and how we were all idiots. Especially when you just summarily dismissed Brees's perfomance today. In synch overnight? Let me put those stats back up for you:

26-41, 353 day with 2 TD's. You think Brees could throw 353 yards out of synch with Joe Horn? But I get it, only an idiot yada-yada.


Brees had to throw the ball 41 times against the Packers D, and thier O-line gave Brees all day to throw. Does McNair have to throw 300+ yards when our Defense is completely shutting down the opponent, give Brees that big of a lead and see if they have him throwing that much.

You cannot expect New QB's to be perfect right away.

[Purpleguy]

Let's all be happy we walked away with a W. We're 2-0. Mcnair needs a little more time to get in sync. Remember Ozzie dicked around with bringing him in here. We also have a joke of an offensive line. Someone needs to tell the Wizard that being fat is not the only qualification to play o-line in the NFL.

[Raven31]

Yeah, Steve McNair was definatly the reason the Titans went 4-12 :grbac:

It had nothing to do with thier lack of Defense? I mean it must be McNair's inability to put up the 30+ points the Titans needed to win games last year.

And I suppose the reason we went 6-10 last year had everything to do with Kyle Boller. It had nothing to do with poor O-line play or several key players on the D that were out with injuries. :eyes:

I fully understand TTRaven's double-standard argument.

[ravensfan1996]

The reason why Mcnair gets a free ride is:

1. He has played only 2 games and won both. Boller had 3 years to do something and didnt.

2.Mcnair has not looked pretty but none of his mistakes has cost us the game. (ie boller)

3. Untill Mcnair's fumbles, bad throws, actually costs us a game he will get a free ride, just like all great players, their past gives them that. Boller has no past, present, maybe a future if he settles down and learns from mcnair how to avoid the rush.

[RavenMad2099]

Childish responses?
Why?
Because they don't agree with you and your premise?

Give me a break...
If you ask me your whole motivation for starting that thread (and then coming over here to bash the people who responded to you) is childish. I almost locked it as soon as I saw it. It was a fairly obvious attempt to stir the pot...but I was pleased with the civil tone of the majority of people who answered.

[Heap86]

Double Standard, Huh?

If we won this game with Boller, very few would be questioning Boller's performance, we would just be happy that Boller won the game, Much like his performances in the past. McNair didn't lose us the game, of course he did'nt win it for us either.

McNair also gets a free pass, because a week earlier, he managed to do what Boller in his 3 year career has seldomly done, win a game on the road.

[StingerNLG]

Yeah, Steve McNair was definatly the reason the Titans went 4-12

It had nothing to do with thier lack of Defense? I mean it must be McNair's inability to put up the 30+ points the Titans needed to win games last year.

You just made my point, thank you. You first said McNair had to adjust to a new offense last year, but then said this. This is why TT brought up the double standard. And again, McNair's been in the league so long that he SHOULD be able to pick up an offense and not have the type of game he had yesterday. The illegal procedures you can understand. But come on, even the PLAYERS knew they stunk yesterday. McNair himself knew it.


Why will Culpepper never be the same from a knee injury? Do you know this to be a proven fact? Players bounce back from serious injuries all the time.

Then you didn't see him gimping around the field after one of his sacks. His mobility is clearly and VISIBLY not the same as it was last year.


Brees had to throw the ball 41 times against the Packers D, and thier O-line gave Brees all day to throw.

I realize though that this is something Ravens fans don't get to see on Sunday.


Does McNair have to throw 300+ yards when our Defense is completely shutting down the opponent, give Brees that big of a lead and see if they have him throwing that much.

So it's ok for the offense to go 3 and out 3 times in a row, or twice for negative yardage just because the defense is doing so well? Did you notice that the defense was on the field Sunday for a good chunk of the 3rd quarter? The only reason the Raiders didn't do anything with that is because they happen to suck. We'll see how that goes when we go up against the Bengals or Chargers, so someone without a more anemic offense than us.


If we won this game with Boller, very few would be questioning Boller's performance, we would just be happy that Boller won the game,

Oh we all here who have been on YBR know that is NOT true, and you know it. Please, Boller never got credit for anything. It would have been the same old "the defense won the game because Boller couldn't do anything". Come on, you guys are making the points for TT.


McNair also gets a free pass, because a week earlier, he managed to do what Boller in his 3 year career has seldomly done, win a game on the road.

Sorry, if Boller last week only went 17-27 for 181 yards and a single touchdown and the defense blanked TB it would have been the same thing? Show of hands, how many people here were not on YBR before coming here? That arguement doesn't fool anyone.

[Dabruise]

McNair doesn't get a free pass. He has earned and paid for his pass many times over. A proven sucessful QB has earned the right to have a lousy game without the fans losing their minds about it.

I'm not sure what kind of "pass" you think he's getting. He sucked today, he knew it, the coaches knew it, and the fans know it. Is the suggestion that we should be calling for another QB? If so, that suggestion is silly.

[Heap86]

A proven sucessful QB has earned the right to have a lousy game without the fans losing their minds about it.

Obviously not our fans

[Raven31]

A proven sucessful QB has earned the right to have a lousy game without the fans losing their minds about it.
Would he still have kept that right if we'd lost?

[Mobtown]

Stinger, I will re-word my response for you:

Mac = Is A Proven Winner
Boller = Has Proven Nothing


EDIT: Dabruise- Mobtown, be careful to direct the discussion to the post NOT the poster.

[RavensInBrazil]

Boller has no past, present, maybe a future if he settles down and learns from mcnair how to avoid the rush.

Maybe he can also learn from McNair how to be sacked twice by Warren "I-Didn't-Even-Know-He-Still-Played" Sapp

I'm not judging Boller until he plays again, and I'm not judging McNair until after a few more games, because everyone has their bad days

[StingerNLG]

Stinger, I will re-word my response for you:

Mac = Is A Proven Winner
Boller = Has Proven Nothing


Are you being obtuse on purpose or did you just have a bad day?


Not at all. But if you make an arguement like that, you have to be able to back it up, nothing more nothing less. No more than I'd expect from anyone else if I said something like that.

Now the way you rephrased it, I have no issue with that. But you should have said that from the get-go. That's all I'm sayin. ;)

[Gabrosin]

When McNair's refusal to step into his throws leads to more one-hoppers and overthrows, and they actually cost us a game, I think the prevailing attitude about him might change. Everyone says he's a tough guy, and to play in the NFL for as long as he has I'm not going to disagree. But he does look like he's scared to step into the pass if he's about to get hit, and his accuracy has suffered for it. His performance has been average for two games. Now, I fully expect him to improve, but playing the way we did on Sunday against the Raiders would not have beaten half the teams in the league, even with a solid defensive effort. Let's hope the whole offense is ready when we go up against San Diego or Denver or Carolina.

[Heap86]

Would he still have kept that right if we'd lost?

No, but thats the difference between winning and losing. I doubt Billick is thinking about benching McNair already, after two subpar performances that still led to wins.

I'm sure Jake Plummer will still be the starter in Denver for atleast another week after his win, that wasn't pretty either.

I am starting to wonder about you guys that still continue to sing Bollers praises, even though McNair is the starter. Do you guys honestly think McNair should be benched for Boller?

[StingerNLG]

No one is saying bench Mcnair. In all this discussion I haven't heard a single person say bench McNair. But heaven forbid there is some legit concern, that happens to be shared by many, and the folks who clammored for yet another QB to pass through get up in arms.



I'm sure Jake Plummer will still be the starter in Denver for atleast another week after his win, that wasn't pretty either.

Jay Cutler will be the starter by week 8. His days as the Bronco's starter are numbered.

[crazyraven]

There really shouldn't be a concern about mcnair especially since we have been on the winning side of the last 2 games. I'm happy with the results. When we start losing games because of the way Mcnair plays then we should all discuss the situation but so far he has been just fine and the results are positive.

Chalk up another win for the guys in purple.
Be happy Baltimore, we finally have a real Quarterback


GOD BLESS RAY LEWIS AND STEVE MCNAIR :thumbup:

[ExiledRaven]

Wins are good.

I don't think we should not be concerned. McNair played like ass and if he had been able to hit clearly open recievers, we could have overcome the line blowing goat most of the day.

There were at least 10 poor throws, short hopping, behind guys.

We'll see if it's a fluke. If it's not, I am very concerned.

[crazyraven]

Wins are good.

Wins aren't just good,they are everything--and thats all that concerns me.

2 and 0 to start the season, and I give thanks to steve. thank you Mcnair


GOD BLESS RAY LEWIS AND STEVE MCNAIR :thumbup:

[TTRaven]

Childish responses?
Why?
Because they don't agree with you and your premise?

Give me a break...
If you ask me your whole motivation for starting that thread (and then coming over here to bash the people who responded to you) is childish. I almost locked it as soon as I saw it. It was a fairly obvious attempt to stir the pot...but I was pleased with the civil tone of the majority of people who answered.

Where at all did I bash anyone that responded to me? The childish remark was made because that's what I got. Yes the poster saying I should get back to servicing Boller was only labeled childish because he didn't agree with me.:grbac:

Oh and please don't say I was trying to stir the pot. I was asking a simple question as to why Mcnair is given a free pass for a bad performance. No hidden agenda here. Just curious as to why the same excuses that were made for Boller are now being made for Mcnair.



Basically this is what it comes down to:

Steve Mcnair: bad game and a win= forget that he was bad and be happy with the win. If we would have lost it would have been the offensive lines fault and Mcnair would still get a free pass from many.

Kyle Boller: bad game and a win= lets harp on the fact that he had a bad game despite getting a win. If we lost that game, this board as well as Ravens Insider would be flooded with threads calling for Bollers head.

You now see the double standard I'm talking about?

And yes I know Mcnair is the better QB. He has all the awards and all. This isn't a debate on who is the better QB. This is a debate on why certain fans are now using the excuses that many Boller huggers were bashed for using.

excuses now being used by haters:

- the offensive line sucked

- 3-4 months for a 12 year veteran is not enough time to learn the playbook.

- Mcnair is still getting used to his receivers despite spending 11 years with Derrick Mason.

- Mcnair still led us to field goals. (Like Kyle Boller hasn't done that)

It's just funny to see the tables turn all of a sudden.



Wins aren't just good,they are everything--and thats all that concerns me.

2 and 0 to start the season, and I give thanks to steve. thank you Mcnair

Wins are everything unless Kyle Boller was a part of them. Over the past at the other board we could win with Boller at the helm and you as well as others would bash him despite getting a win.

2-0 to start the season, and I give thanks to our defense

[Greg]

Steve McNair is a known commodity and we know he can play.

Boller is an unknown commodity and despite what the folks who hate him say, we don't know about him and McNair's performance in the pre-season and first 2 games PROVES this. Why? Because McNair is struggling behing our OL as well.

McNair will get better as he gets more time with this team, but his non-acclimation isn't causing him to miss easy throws. It is a sense of rush he feels behind our OL, knowing his time to throw is limited. Given Boller's hyper attitude, it is exaggerated in him.

I think McNair's performance shows Boller is better than his stats here indicate. And one would think the Boller detractors (those who have no faith at all in him) would be best served to probably not say too much at the moment.

McNair is the better option, he stays more calm under that stress and will give us the best leadership but thinking this does not vindicate Boller to some degree I think shows unreasonableness.

[RavenMad2099]

I agree. This is unproductive, so let's drop it and move on.
You let me know how you feel, and I let you know how I feel. From my perspective, however, I am trying very hard to restore the civility over there everyone seems to miss...with the help of some very good people.

I'm also really, really sick of the Boller Wars.

Let's just watch MNF and cheer for the Jags...even though I picked the Steelers on Pick 'Em. :lol

[TTRaven]

Let's just watch MNF and cheer for the Jags...even though I picked the Steelers on Pick 'Em. :lol

You got that right. I got a chance at some big money in my vegas pick 'em if the Jaguars win.

[Dabruise]

I agree. This is unproductive, so let's drop it and move on.
You let me know how you feel, and I let you know how I feel. From my perspective, however, I am trying very hard to restore the civility over there everyone seems to miss...with the help of some very good people.

I'm also really, really sick of the Boller Wars.

Let's just watch MNF and cheer for the Jags...even though I picked the Steelers on Pick 'Em. :lol


I appreciate the resolution but I'd ask in the future when you use the word YOU in your post, DON'T! That makes it personal. We don't do personal. By the way, the fact that someone goes personal first doesn't absolve anyone else from going personal. All parties will be subject to warnings and bans.

[GirlsKickButt]

Ah, the double standard is alive and well.

McNair is a 10 year vet, a NFL Co-MVP and has had to get used to new systems multiple times. NTM, we are paying this guy $33M.

He should get VERY LITTLE SLACK. The "learning the system" is just an excuse for poor play.

The Bucs and Oakland have very bad defenses, yet McNair can't put up 200+ yards passing? A poor throw had absolutely NOTHING to do with "learning the system". It's called poor execution...something a 10 year vet with McNair's career numbers shouldn't have.

When will the Boller Bashers understand the fact that the OL and the offensive system is THE PROBLEM with this offense? We've had 8 QBs...and Billick's system has destroyed them all.

I'm just going to sit back and watch the excuses for McNair fly. I'm sure that there will be some doozies too. It won't matter though, because with Flynn and Vincent, McNair is on borrowed time.

[Brandon]

McNair gets a free pass from me, because:

He's a Pro-Bowl Veteran
CO-MVP of the league
Took his team to the Super Bowl and was seconds away from winning it.

'Nuff said!

[Greg]

Took his team to the Super Bowl and was seconds away from winning it.
Actually, tying it unless you are assuming they go for two and get it.

[crazyraven]

We won the game. holy moly with this already...plus we are keeping pace with cinni.

pile on McNair when he loses a game or two? OK he didn't have a great game but he did enough to help win it. It seem like people are just creating an issue.

Bury the hatchet already and lets root for all the ravens.

[Mista T]

McNair gets a free pass from me, because:

Can't agree. :thumbdown:

McNair laid an egg. No one gets a free pass with a 58 QB rating, considering that his team was leading relatively comfortably the entire game, with a power running game to relieve pressure on the passing game, and a world class defense & special teams repeatedly setting up great field position. I would expect a 58 rating from a rookie playing catch-up, not a vet who just got handed a $33 million check to "fix" :laugh: the Ravens passing game.


:mrt:

[StingerNLG]

But Mista T, all of a sudden, the QB rating will no longer magically matter to anyone because it's Steve McNair.

Remember, Steve McNair was going to make defenses pay for the blitz, nevermind other teams blitz us so much because they know they can get through the line.

Remember, Steve McNair was so good, that just by being in the huddle he was going to make Mike Flynn, Keydrick Vincent, and Tony Pashos better. I think yesterday we could put that to bed too.

Remember all the woes of the team, win or loss were Kyle Boller's fault the last 3 years. All the above mentioned problems that Steve just experienced last night, somehow last year that was because of Boller, and McNair would make it better.

I said last week before this game even happened I was concerned. Steve McNair earned his MVP, and he earned the right to be called an elite QB. But to think he was the answer to our problems has always make me shake my head. And to Crazy, my friend had we played Cincy in week 1 or 2, we could easily right now be 1-1. And while I think we can sit back on Cleveland because they are worse than last year, once we start playing real NFL teams, 58 QB ratings aren't going to do it.

And just like Kyle Boller, that 58 rating won't be totally Steve's fault. But what will it matter anyway? The fans all thought the OL was magically going to improve.

[crazyraven]

And to Crazy, my friend had we played Cincy in week 1 or 2, we could easily right now be 1-1. And while I think we can sit back on Cleveland because they are worse than last year, once we start playing real NFL teams, 58 QB ratings aren't going to do it.

Your too confident that we will lose. I rather think our defense will overwhelm the Bengals and our offense will do enough to win. Our other QB had that opportunity, and failed. That's why we are paying the big money to another qb. I say he can get the job done and keep the Bengals off the field long enough for the defense to be effective.

I'm enjoying the season, I'm surprised many are not.



GOD BLESS RAY LEWIS AND STEVE MCNAIR :thumbup:

[highwater]

Bury the hatchet already and lets root for all the ravens.

That's pretty funny, crazy -- when a lot of us said that last year, we were called huggers (and a lot of other things too).

[Mista T]

I'm enjoying the season, I'm surprised many are not.

Huh?

We have been critical of QB performances in Baltimore almost every year since I was a kid. Even the only two top-notch QBs we've ever seen: Johnny U and Bert Jones - were not spared. We enjoyed every step of the way to SB XXXV, but you may recall that there was a lot of criticism of Trent Dilfer.

So, please, let's not get get into speculation as to how other fans are enjoying the season while we debate the QB getting a free pass after a mediocre performance. Winning, ugly or not, is winning.

:mrt:

[crazyraven]

HW I'm not sure what is funny about last year. Last year We were horrible as a unit can be, nothing funny there. The thing that stands out to me is that ray and Steve were not in the picture. The good news as ravens fans is we can expect good things from proven veterans. With a horrible o-line, mcnair and ray have our team at 2-0.

On this board I don't make distinction between two camps or groups ( hugger or haters) I tend to look at it as if we are all here to have intelligent conversations about our beloved Baltimore ravens. The way i look at it :A win is a win is a win.


Id say the same no matter who was Q'ing


So, please, let's not get get into speculation as to how other fans are enjoying the season while we debate the QB getting a free pass after a mediocre performance. Winning, ugly or not, is winning

The speculation is valid for all the reason I provided above. If you feel you are enjoying the season, that's cool and I'm happy you are enjoying the season. I guess I revel in wins rather than nick pick a proven qb salary or if he had bad day while still pulling out a victory. However Some people want to see our QB fall on his face and it is clear as day to me.


GOD BLESS RAY LEWIS AND STEVE MCNAIR :thumbup:

[FHRaven]

It's pretty simple. You can enjoy beating up on the Sisters of the Poor in the NFL but if you have deep playoff expectations then McNair's performance last Sunday and to a lesser degree against Tampa is reason for concern.

Many fans seemed to think that replacing Kyle would mean instant SB contention. When AW finally played they were proved wrong.

Then they said we just needed anyone other than those 2. Now McNair shows up and lays an egg against a poor team. Right now we are good enough to make the playoffs but if he continues to look like that we'll be one and done.

I'm not saying he and the offense won't get better, but Sunday's game did throw up the same red flags we've seen before.

As I said in another thread, weeks 4, 5 and 6 will give us a better idea of where we stand.

FHRaven

[TTRaven]

It's just amazing how people all of a sudden change their tune. Every excuse that us Boller fans were accused of using are now being used by the non Boller fans for Mcnair. Now we have people claiming that we're not enjoying the season because we are being critical of Mcnair. Does that mean that you were not enjoying the past 3 seasons of NFL football when Boller was at the helm?

[StingerNLG]

FHRaven is dead on. Yes, a win is a win is a win. 2-0 is a nice place to be. But the point was that the team looks the same even with a new high-priced former MVP QB at the helm.

Brian Billick said it perfectly yesterday. If Boller put in the same performance yesterday, there would be all kinds of commentary about it on Monday. I think that is the heart of what TT is trying to say. Not that you can compare the two. The team still has legit concerns about it. And right now it's masked by 2 wins against poor playing teams.

Crazy, I don't believe we beat Cincy if that was the game on Sunday. Cincy has a running game and a QB. We knocked out Aaron Brooks before mid 1st quarter, not that it mattered. :) I just think if our offense went backwards 18 yards in two consecutive possessions against the Bengals, we lose that game.

And the other point I think TT was trying to make is that last year if Boller-led offense actually lost yards like that, it would be a bloodletting in the forums. But McNair doing it, it's no big deal. That is a little hypocritical, especially SINCE McNair is a 12 year MVP vet.

Anyway, let's look at the bright side. Cleveland fans are already chaulking us up as a loss next Sunday. :)

[crazyraven]

And the other point I think TT was trying to make is that last year if Boller-led offense actually lost yards like that, it would be a bloodletting in the forums. But McNair doing it, it's no big deal. That is a little hypocritical, especially SINCE McNair is a 12 year MVP vet.

I don't think we have ever been 2-0 with any other qb in the last 3 years. Unless I'm mistaken, we haven't started out 2-0 and bitched about the QB play in that time period? Think about where we would have been in 2004 if we were able to beat the browns in the opener. There is a difference in LEADERSHIP that people are totally missing and the beauty of it is that its only going to get better as time goes forward. Other than that I dont know what TT or anyone who agrees with him is looking for....Honestly.

[StingerNLG]

Well, the other side of that coin though Crazy are the people that you also sided with on YBR that totally dismissed the 2004 Ravens being 7-3 before hitting their skid. Those same people said that the team won DESPITE Boller. You know who I'm talking about. Now all of a sudden we're 2-0 DESPITE McNair's-run offense, and magically the circumstances are somehow different.

That continues to be the point. And again, Sunday's performance by our offensive unit won't fly against San Diego, Cincinatti, Pittsburgh (well, maybe it will based on last night's game), or any other well-playing NFL team.

[Mista T]

There is a difference in LEADERSHIP that people are totally missing and the beauty of it is that its only going to get better as time goes forward.

I don't buy into that. "Leadership" and "intangibles" are subjective terms that are often tossed about by sportswriters when QBs no longer have the physical tools to deliver. To put it succinctly: I'd rather have a QB with a 90s-100s rating without the so-called leadership skills than one who performs at 58, no matter how he leads. The guy with the 90s-100s rating will win a lot more ball games.

:mrt:

[Sports Steve]

Due to all the years he has won. This year he's coming into a new system. Don't worry he'll be fine. Hang in there better times are coming.


:jester: :jester:

[crazyraven]

Well, the other side of that coin though Crazy are the people that you also sided with on YBR that totally dismissed the 2004 Ravens being 7-3 before hitting their skid.

Lets not bring up YBR into this. on this site we have intelligent banter with out having to bring up dirty laundry. Sting you even said yourself that you have signed off YBR and to never return, so lets drop all the old arguements. We are all starting out fresh. :thumbup:

As for a 7-3 record in 2004 you are correct it was a nice start but then some where in the remaining games came the bengals game where we were torched and when we needed a TD the qb at the helm was not able to deliver. 7-3 is a nice stat but down the stretch we only won 2 more games. I'd suggest we compare the current 2 game stretch instead of a 10 game stretch that blew up in our face. Only because we have the recent data.

We won 2 games and we scored some TDs. The defense has allowed 6 points in 2 games. lets rejoice. Ravens fans can be critical but at the same time why are we spinning our wheels?

GOD BLESS RAY LEWIS AND STEVE MCNAIR :thumbup:

[highwater]

FHRaven is dead on. Yes, a win is a win is a win. 2-0 is a nice place to be. But the point was that the team looks the same even with a new high-priced former MVP QB at the helm.

Actually, the real difference between this year and last year (so far) has been the defense, which has been dominating. Having a healthy Ray Lewis and a healthy Ed Reed makes a pretty big difference. If they had been healthy last season, we would have won more games.

But the offense, on the other hand, has not looked much better, in spite of having what appear to be better players, at least at skill positions. And as TTRaven said:

Every excuse that us Boller fans were accused of using are now being used by the non Boller fans for Mcnair.

That is what is really annoying about these head-in-the-sand fans that say everything is perfect -- win or loss, they whined like infants last year about Boller. When the Ravens beat Houston last year on a last minute drive, some fans complained -- "The Texans are terrible, this doesn't prove anything, whimper, etc." Well, guess what, hypocrites, the Raiders are terrible too. Look, even the players on offense themselves basically said they sucked on Sunday, so I can't see how anyone in their right mind could have a problem with us agreeing with them.

LOL at anyone claiming he can't understand why we aren't "enjoying the season." Tell that to Derrick Mason.

[Heap86]

The Bucs and Oakland have very bad defenses

I stopped reading you post after this phrase. One of those two Defenses was #1 last year.

As for you other guys, You seem dead set on avenging those individuals who bashed Boller in the past, Are you guys in love with Boller or something? Its true to say that it wasn't all Boller's fault, but he was part of the problem.

[purplepoe]

Whoa Whoa Whoa.

Before all the huggers go crazy about these alledged excuses be thrown around, take a step back.

Who's making excuses for McNair? The majority (and vast majority at that) of the fans I've heard at the game, on the radio, and in general have been VERY critical of McNair.

His play has been subpar overall and needs to improve. And I think most everyone here knows my opinion of our other QB.

The offense, particularly against Oakland, was borderline awful and will not get it done vs. the big boys.

The TB game was OK and it was week 1 on the road. Let's all remember what this team had done on the road lately and over the years when they started the season on the road.

McNair's accuracy and overall passing game hasn't been good but his pocket presence and poise (the 2 things I expected and wanted the most) are there. Im not sure what others expectations of McNair were but I bet he won't meet alot of them. What I expected and still expect is a decent passing game when it's all said and done. Some people just flew off the handle when we got him and expected 3500 yds and 25 TDs when really, he's never put up huge numbers.

As far as this double standard talk. All I have to say about that is if Boller did what McNair did in TB, I would've been fine. I don't care what Billick says. I also think people on this board have taken it overboard. Seriously folks. If Boller completed 64% of his passes with a TD and no picks on the road against TB, most people would've been fine with it. I know I would. It was a very meaningful game. Would some people pick apart Boller after that game? I guess, but surely not alot and definitely not the haters as a whole.

If you want to talk about the Oakland game, you've got more of an argument. Flynn holding on the 1 is neither McNair's fault nor would it have been Bollers. Nor would the false start and not enough men on the line penalties. The Raiders brought heat all day and McNair felt it. He avoided numerous sacks but didn't make the throws he needs too. The INT was ill advised but it wasn't a game changer and that is what really killed us in the past.

Again, I wanted poise and pocket presence and I think we've gotten it. We are 2-0 against 2 bad teams. We play another bad team this week and I expect the offense to play much better then and in the subsequent weeks.

But McNair isn't getting a free pass like some here are implying.

PP

[highwater]

purplepoe, I agree with just about all of your post (although I wish we would drop the "hugger" label, because it was always pretty dumb -- anyone who didn't want Boller shot in the head have been given that tag).

I thought McNair was okay in Tampa, it was just the Raiders game where the passing game, and the offense in general, wasn't very effective. And it wasn't all McNair's fault, obviously. He did have a poor game, but I'm assuming that's all it was, just a bad game -- that has been known to happen, even to good QBs. I agree with your comments about McNair's poise -- however, he has to start making some accurate passes, or the poise won't seem as important. I'm not too worried about that yet, because I'm pretty sure he'll get better as the season rolls on. I am a little concerned over the lack of deep throws, but I'm optimistically hoping that will improve too.

I don't think McNair is getting a free pass, but at this early point of the season, he does deserve the benefit of the doubt. But as you pointed out yourself, the offense will have to do a lot better when we start playing the really good teams. I'm looking for improvement next week.

[purplepoe]

I just think that both sides are way too extreme.

Was I hard on Boller? Absolutely and deservedly so I thought.

And I will also criticize McNair when he plays poorly.

I think this team is 1-1 if Boller was our starter. I don't believe he would've gone to TB and won. I just don't. It's not because I dislike him or think we really would've won but just can't say it because Boller was the QB. It's looking at his track record on the road. It's realizing that against and aggresive D, he lacks the discipline, poise, and pocket presence to make throws.

I do believe he would've defeated the Raiders. We won despite our offense on Sunday. Any rational fan will say that. Hell, the players are saying it.

Of course there are the blind homers who say we'll break 165 and that we're a shoe in for the Super Bowl. Again, extremes.

As far as McNair and the double standard goes. IMO, Boller's lack of poise and horrible decision making is why I was so critical.

Even if you are of the belief that there is a double standard, you must admit that McNair is calm and makes MUCH better decisions. And that is what the key to this season will be.

No matter what QB is playing, they aren't going to put up huge numbers. Period.

I never expected McNair to.

PP

[TTRaven]

Who's making excuses for McNair? The majority (and vast majority at that) of the fans I've heard at the game, on the radio, and in general have been VERY critical of McNair.

Are you serious? Read the threads on both boards. Every excuse that was made for Boller is now being made for Mcnair by the people that dislike Boller.

I'll give you an example:

Over on the other board the grades that Tony Lombardi gave the team are posted. He gave Mcnair and F. Here is a little clip from his article:


Thirty of McNair’s 143 passing yards came on a dump off to Musa Smith who made a nice play to pick up yardage after his catch of the short pass. Another 30 on a hitch to Mark Clayton who ran about 25 yards on his own.

Here's a response to the above clip:


Somebody should tell "TL" that these yards still count. Thats like when Butch Davis said "If not for those 5 plays, Lewis wouldn't have had 295 yards".

So all of a sudden these "yards" count. There was a time when a certain QB would dump the ball off to have a player run for 30 yards and those "yards" didn't count for that certain QB. They were given to the player that made the play. Now all of a sudden Mcnair is getting credit for those yards for getting the player the ball even though that player made that play.

Look we all know that if Boller had been the QB of the Raiders game he would be getting blasted right now. Since Mcnair is the QB now he is getting every excuse that was made for Boller.

We all knew this was going to happen. Now the Boller haters will be labeled as Mcnair huggers, and the Boller huggers will be labeled as Mcnair haters. It's just funny to see people switch positions all of a sudden.

[Art-Florida]

Uh oh, This is the closest thing we have had to a 'non-civil' thread so far. (other than in the smack section) You see whay happens when the second-person singular tense gets used? I will say one thing for the haters' benefit though...karma/payback is a bitch

If the defense continues at THIS level (unlikely) we can have McNair, Boller, Kordelia, or Rosie O'Donnel at quarterback and it won't matter. Very few teams win games without scoring touchdowns, andhow many have we allowed so far? Jax last night is the exception to the rule.

[purplepoe]

Are you serious? Read the threads on both boards. Every excuse that was made for Boller is now being made for Mcnair by the people that dislike Boller.

I'll give you an example:

Over on the other board the grades that Tony Lombardi gave the team are posted. He gave Mcnair and F. Here is a little clip from his article:



Here's a response to the above clip:



So all of a sudden these "yards" count. There was a time when a certain QB would dump the ball off to have a player run for 30 yards and those "yards" didn't count for that certain QB. They were given to the player that made the play. Now all of a sudden Mcnair is getting credit for those yards for getting the player the ball even though that player made that play.

Look we all know that if Boller had been the QB of the Raiders game he would be getting blasted right now. Since Mcnair is the QB now he is getting every excuse that was made for Boller.

We all knew this was going to happen. Now the Boller haters will be labeled as Mcnair huggers, and the Boller huggers will be labeled as Mcnair haters. It's just funny to see people switch positions all of a sudden.

TT

Answer me this question.

Are we 2-0 if Boller is our starter?

If you think so, that's fine. I don't think we are.

I said McNair would win us 4 more games than Boller. TB was one of those four.

I think I've made my points about this.

Of course there are people who will find ways to bash Boller at any point. Im just telling you what Im hearing. I rarely hang out at the other board because it's a complete cluster F.

Knowledgeable fans will acknowledge that fact that McNair needs to improve and that this team is far from a lock for anything.



PP

[TTRaven]

Are we 2-0 if Boller is our starter?

Honestly yes, but the games would have been a lot closer. We wouldn't have dominated both games. With Mcnair we have a guy that knows how to get out of trouble. He's not going to take a sack or make a mistake under pressure. His presence in the pocket is the reason why we were able to win so big in both games.

[AZRAVEN]

Even if you are of the belief that there is a double standard, you must admit that McNair is calm and makes MUCH better decisions. And that is what the key to this season will be.

No matter what QB is playing, they aren't going to put up huge numbers. Period.

I never expected McNair to.

PP

Yes Poe, I must admit that McNair is totally calm and poised as he is throwing the ball at the receivers feet or overthrowing them. It is a stellar improvement. :laugh: (I'm sorry, I try to stay totally away from the endless quarterback debates but I couldn't resist ~ the devil made me do it :laugh: )

As far as not scoring points, if I'm not mistaken I believe it was Mr McNair who promised Mr Lewis 24 points a game. I guess perhaps he was expecting the defense to kick in half. :laugh:

Not a hugger or hater, just acknowledging that the double standard does exist.

[purplepoe]

Honestly yes, but the games would have been a lot closer. We wouldn't have dominated both games. With Mcnair we have a guy that knows how to get out of trouble. He's not going to take a sack or make a mistake under pressure. His presence in the pocket is the reason why we were able to win so big in both games.

OK.

So that's the crux of this whole thing then.

You think that Boller wins in TB.

I disagree. I have yet to see Boller go into another teams stadium, especially a team with a D like TBs, and sniff a win.

If Boller was in there, I think TB changes their whole defensive scheme. And I believe we would've been left with what we've seen on the road for the past year and a half.

PP

[TTRaven]

Even if you are of the belief that there is a double standard, you must admit that McNair is calm and makes MUCH better decisions. And that is what the key to this season will be.

I don't think you're going to find anyone that disagrees with you on this. Mcnair is calm and makes better decisions which we should expect from a player with his accomplishments.

[purplepoe]

Yes Poe, I must admit that McNair is totally calm and poised as he is throwing the ball at the receivers feet or overthrowing them. It is a stellar improvement. :laugh: (I'm sorry, I try to stay totally away from the endless quarterback debates but I couldn't resist ~ the devil made me do it :laugh: )

As far as not scoring points, if I'm not mistaken I believe it was Mr McNair who promised Mr Lewis 24 points a game. I guess perhaps he was expecting the defense to kick in half. :laugh:

Not a hugger or hater, just acknowledging that the double standard does exist.

:rolleyes:

Even TT acknowledges McNair's poise etc......

I guess my points about McNair needing to improve goes unread by some.

I'll ask you AZ.

Do you think Boller wins that game in TB?

Again, IMO McNair makes us 4 games better than last season and TB was one of those games.

I guess you can't be objective and see things the way they are.

Seems like you must in one corner or the other.

Because McNair is getting plenty of attention around here for his POOR play. He surely isn't getting praised as some would like to think.

PP

[purplepoe]

I don't think you're going to find anyone that disagrees with you on this. Mcnair is calm and makes better decisions which we should expect from a player with his accomplishments.

Exactly man.

And he needs to improve his throws.

Only the blind think everything is fine.

Maybe I just ignore people like that now.

Honestly, I really don't see McNair getting any praise.

What I will agree with is that he's not getting as much heat as Boller would but it's not a free pass.

Mabye it's semantics.

PP

[52RAYVENS]

Be happy. We're 2-0. :thumbup:
Skins & Steelers suck! Life is very good! :D

[Mista T]

Do you think Boller wins that game in TB?

I'll take that one PP. Yes -- Boller at QB this season = 2-0. The Defense won both of those games. The only difference between McNair & Boller may have been that 1st drive at Tampa. So the final may have been 20-7. On the other hand, maybe our offense would have done better with Boller's stronger arm. Don't forget that Boller's preseason play was better than McNair's. Hell - there may have even been a few long balls thrown in the first two games.

Now, all this is irrelevant, since Billick put his job on the line by hiring McNair. Steve can continue to founder in the Red Zone and get QB ratings in the 50s and he will not get yanked unless he's injured.

:mrt:

[StingerNLG]

As for a 7-3 record in 2004 you are correct it was a nice start but then some where in the remaining games came the bengals game where we were torched and when we needed a TD the qb at the helm was not able to deliver.

That Bengals arguement doesn't hold water. We didn't need a TD, we simply needed a score. And when we needed that score, we got within FG range and went ahead of the Bengals with 1:42 left IN THE GAME. That should have been enough to win the game, and the defense let Carson Palmer and TJ Houshmondazah torch them for almost 60 yards. Same thing they've been doing to other teams all of last year.

If Boller got a TD, and Palmer went down on the very next drive and instead of a FG, THEY got a TD as well, would the blame go to the defense?

If McNair went downfield and got a FG in that same situation, but we lost because the opposing team scored in their 2 minute drive, would you blame him or the defense?


We won 2 games and we scored some TDs. The defense has allowed 6 points in 2 games. lets rejoice. Ravens fans can be critical but at the same time why are we spinning our wheels?

Because on a better team we will lose like that. And it's the same old offense, just with a new QB. No one who wanted Boller out wants to admit that, even with this past week's performance.

[StingerNLG]

Ok, first off. Heap86, if you want to do that "Are you in love with Boller" shit, go back to YBR where people can attack each other at will. If you're not capable of holding intelligent conversation, please go away.

PurplePoe, you're way too centered to be in these discussions man. :) However, while I agree with many things you are saying, I disagree with one:


I disagree. I have yet to see Boller go into another teams stadium, especially a team with a D like TBs, and sniff a win.

NY Jets. Neither of our QB's last year could get a win on the road, so he can't take all of that credit. But the Jet's win is not only one where he did do it against a pretty good defense at the time, but went to the line and changed the play and scored a TD, and made a money throw to Kevin Johnson up the middle of the field to get Stover in rage to kick the winning FG.

And I also agree with Mr. T. McNair didn't put up hot numbers against TB, but the defense totally smothered Chris Simms. But let's look at the offensive stuff for a second. TB did exactly what I expected them to do, and exactly what they'd do with Boller in; attack the offensive line.

And remember that first drive was a good dose of Jamal Lewis and Musa Smith as well as Steve's throws. The very next posession they went -7 yards (which is becoming a concern with this offense going backwards two games in a row), then in the next 3 posessions only going 24 yards. Then starting on the TB 9 and only getting a field goal, which again Boller would have gotten raked over the coals for. The Raven's win both these 2 games even if St. Pierre is the QB.

Anyway, the unfortunate thing is that we still have a ? with the OL, and until that gets fixed, we're going to be having discussions like this where we keep questioning our QB's for sub-par performances.

[purplepoe]

[B][COLOR="Blue"]I'll take that one PP. Yes -- Boller at QB this season = 2-0. The Defense won both of those games. The only difference between McNair & Boller may have been that 1st drive at Tampa. So the final may have been 20-7. On the other hand, maybe our offense would have done better with Boller's stronger arm. Don't forget that Boller's preseason play was better than McNair's. Hell - there may have even been a few long balls thrown in the first two games.



Sorry, but I just don't buy that Boller leaves TB with a 64% completion rate, a TD and zero turnovers.

[/QUOTE]NY Jets. Neither of our QB's last year could get a win on the road, so he can't take all of that credit. But the Jet's win is not only one where he did do it against a pretty good defense at the time, but went to the line and changed the play and scored a TD, and made a money throw to Kevin Johnson up the middle of the field to get Stover in rage to kick the winning FG.[/QUOTE]

Yup, you are right. That game was in the middle of the 2004 season. We're now almost 2 years removed from that and finally won another road game.

This team, with Boller and Wright, was absolutely atrocious on the road up until 2 weeks ago.

The main difference from those road losses and now is McNair. Yes, there are other differences but none as big as McNair IMO.Again, he didn't light the world on fire. But he didn't turn the ball over and made the throws when needed. Most people will acknowledge that no matter where they stood on the whole Boller thing.

I can only speak for myself, but if Boller did that in TB, I'd be very happy and content.

I just don't see him not turning the ball over versus that D on the road. I don't see him being able to stay under control when under pressure and bringing us home a winner.

But really, it's a moot point isn't it?

We're 2-0 and our D is ridiculous. Sounds familiar.

It would be nice to talk about what we can do to go 3-0 and come back home looking for a 4-0 start.

But that won't happen in Baltimore!

PP

[AZRAVEN]

:rolleyes:

Even TT acknowledges McNair's poise etc......

I guess my points about McNair needing to improve goes unread by some.

I'll ask you AZ.

Do you think Boller wins that game in TB?

Again, IMO McNair makes us 4 games better than last season and TB was one of those games.

I guess you can't be objective and see things the way they are.

Seems like you must in one corner or the other.

Because McNair is getting plenty of attention around here for his POOR play. He surely isn't getting praised as some would like to think.

PP


Chill guy, why are you getting so lathered about this? McNair is in, Boller is on his way out the door so why get so defensive.
Do I think Boller wins at TB? If you had asked me that question after week 1 I would have said no way but after seeing TB crap the bed again this week I am wondering just how good they are or are not. Since the defense basically won the TB game anyway maybe he could have.
It is your opinion that McNair makes us 4 games better. Based on what I've seen so far, I'm not sure I agree. I'm sorry, but McNair is not wowing me.
So, what you're saying is since I don't agree with your assessment of the situation I cannot be objective? Well again, that's your opinion, I think I am being objective. I'm judging by the results and so far as I see it the defense has won two games for us with only marginally better offensive production than last year. You obviously see it differently.
No, I don't have to be in one corner or the other. I have never been a Boller fan. I hated the pick when we made it because I didn't see the pedigree that warranted taking him that high. I've always viewed him as a project at best. By the same token, I've never been a huge McNair fan. He is an upgrade over Boller but I'm just not that impressed.

[StingerNLG]

Sorry, but I just don't buy that Boller leaves TB with a 64% completion rate, a TD and zero turnovers.

Why not? He had a 58% completion for all of 2005. He only played under 55% twice, and was at 70% twice. He dinks and dunks just as good as McNair was doing. Wasn't that one of the many complaints against the offense last year?


I can only speak for myself, but if Boller did that in TB, I'd be very happy and content.

And you've proven that already, so I have no doubt. But you know from experience what would be all over the radio and the message boards from other people if Boller put up the numbers he put up Sunday yet we still won the game. No one would be saying "Hey, we won the game, that's all that matters.".


We're 2-0 and our D is ridiculous. Sounds familiar.

Yes.


It would be nice to talk about what we can do to go 3-0 and come back home looking for a 4-0 start.

That's going to happen.


But that won't happen in Baltimore!

Not if the offense plays like it was sold to play with McNair here. Remember, we're told (not by the Ravens) that Kyle Boller was THE problem with the offense, and now that he's on the sidelines we were going to be an offensive juggernaut; and watch out defenses, Steve McNair is here!

If it comes out and lays another egg or loses on the road, then we're going to be right back here talking about if the QB or the system is to blame.

[Heap86]

Ok, first off. Heap86, if you want to do that "Are you in love with Boller" shit, go back to YBR where people can attack each other at will. If you're not capable of holding intelligent conversation, please go away.


Excellent response, I guess someone who doesn't agree with you is not capable of holding intelligent conversation.

I just don't understand why some of you guys find the need to take up for Boller constantly, I have never seen so many excuses made up for one human being. I did'nt see that happen for guys like Grbac, Blake, or Redman. Most people agree that most of those guys did suck, but most of you people just look for things to make Boller look good.

Boller hasn't done much of anything, and who knows if he would be a great QB with better play calling and a much better Offensive Line. I guess you guys think that McNair should be benched for Boller, but when and if Boller falls on his face again it will be the Offensive Line and the coaches fault.

I will admit that McNair has not played well so far and I put that mostly on him. He has no excuse to play like he did against Oakland, but I will still give him the benefit of the doubt of being new in the system. You can see that he is still having problems grasping the playbook, and this was expected, he has looked confused at times. I heard alot of you same guys that are now complaining about how McNair has played say when we picked him up ,that he would likely have trouble at the beginning of the year, but now you guys say that there should be no excuses for him and that he outright sucks.

Double Standard?

[StingerNLG]

Excellent response, I guess someone who doesn't agree with you is not capable of holding intelligent conversation.

No Heap, you don't get it. That "gay for Boller" shit is exactly what we DON'T do here. That's not intelligent conversation.

[crazyraven]

If it comes out and lays another egg or loses on the road, then we're going to be right back here talking about if the QB or the system is to blame.

Here is where I would say the "QB gets a pass". If we lose and we continue to play like we have in the past then the only person you blame is the Head coach. No one else. Mcnair still has earned a pass given his history. It would have to be the system if Mcnair can't turn this around.

So far aquiring a seasoned pro like McNair is paying off. 2 -0 is the best way to start off the season and none of you guys are going to spoil that no matter how hard you try. :crazy:

[Heap86]

Not if the offense plays like it was sold to play with McNair here. Remember, we're told (not by the Ravens) that Kyle Boller was THE problem with the offense, and now that he's on the sidelines we were going to be an offensive juggernaut; and watch out defenses, Steve McNair is here!


Good Lord!!

I am starting to wonder if you are Boller, it sounds like you take it as a personal insult when someone bashes him.

I, like most other Ravens fans will admit that Kyle Boller was not the total problem on Offense, but he was not helping the cause, obviously the FO saw that and took action.

My question to you is will you still be a Ravens fan when and If Kyle Boller moves on?

[StingerNLG]

Mcnair still has earned a pass given his history.

Sorry Crazy. ESPECIALLY given his history, yesterday's performance was unacceptable. Sorry Crazy, going backwards in consecutive drives, starting inside the opponents 9 yard line and only getting a field goal, or being in your opponent's 40 3 times in a row and only getting 9 points is unacceptable for a quarterback of Steve McNair's history.

Are you telling us that if Boller went 2-0 with those same stats, and watching that offense on Sunday actually go backwards twice in a row, you would be saying the same thing? My experience with the forum you don't want to bring up anymore says no my friend.


And again, Heap, you don't get it. So now I'm Boller? Go back to YBR dude. Just go back there and enjoy yourself. Otherwise welcome to my ignore list. PM me when you can drop all the rest of the crap.

[Heap86]

And again, Heap, you don't get it. So now I'm Boller? Go back to YBR dude. Just go back there and enjoy yourself. Otherwise welcome to my ignore list.


It was a humerous Exageration, get a Grip :grbac:

I am just so curious to the fact that you see the need to constantly take up for Boller, is that so hard to understand?

I guess I will never know

[crazyraven]

Are you telling us that if Boller went 2-0 with those same stats, and watching that offense on Sunday actually go backwards twice in a row, you would be saying the same thing? My experience with the forum you don't want to bring up anymore says no my friend.

Bring up the forum if you want I just thought you wanted to keep it civil. Pointing back to the past "arguement" will only lead to bad feelings. I was just suggesting starting fresh and I just dont want to get into the "YOU DID THIS or THAT" game.

If you want to look at two drives that went backwards, that is your prerogative. McNair is going to have some bad games, luckily a bad game was erased by a win. The games are in the books,and yes, if boller was the starter and he went 2-0 I would be giving him some slack especially if the Defense played so dominant.



GOD BLESS RAY LEWIS AND STEVE MCNAIR :thumbup:

[StingerNLG]

Bring up the forum if you want I just thought you wanted to keep it civil. Pointing back to the past "arguement" will only lead to bad feelings. I was just suggesting starting fresh and I just dont want to get into the "YOU DID THIS or THAT" game.

I can keep it civil. But the point is that that doesn't mean we didn't have conversations over there about this. Our history of talking about this has to play a factor. We've been civil. You haven't accused me of being Boller. ;)


If you want to look at two drives that went backwards, that is your prerogative.

And it's not two drives that went backwards. How about 7 punts, or only getting field goals in 3 consecutive drives inside the 40, including one at the 29? How about 3 - 3 and out drives that netted 5 yards?

None of this concerns you at all? And keep in mind this isn't totally on McNair. It's the same thing I've complained about over and over. Mike Flynn getting blown up, so he has to hold on a 1 yard run and nullify a touchdown. Then they get a delay of game penalty. Seriously, against a better team, this is not a win.

[Dabruise]

I think we may be missing the entire forest by examining the trees. What was the biggest difference in this team going into both games this year? I'd suggest that it was confidence. Not only by the offense, in the offense, by the D believed the offense would finally be able to give them a chance to win games.

This difference didn't and would not have existed w/o McNair. Remember, this is a defense that McNair has carved up for years. They knew him. As for the offense, have we forgotten the morose that pervaded this team last year and even into the mini camps?

Would we be 2-0 w/o McNair? I don't know at all. We couldn't beat teams of this caliber last year. What has changed other than Mac9? According to team members, it is McNair that has given them a spark.

This is a totally different team with McNair ath the helm. Even a McNair that struggled for a game. Does that change if he struggles for two or three more games. Probably.

[Art-Florida]

:rolleyes:


I'll ask you AZ.

Do you think Boller wins that game in TB?

PP

Yes. If I recall correctly, the Bucs got ZERO points. Boller and Stover alone would have topped that.

Now departing useless hindsight mode.

[Heap86]

As much as I and we all hate him, in Preston's Q&A he makes a good point.


Chris and Chris. You're starting trouble. I didn't want to mention "My Man" Kyle's name, but I have to answer your question. The first game I gave McNair a C+. He would have gotten a C, but he threw a late touchdown pass. Against Oakland, I gave him a D. So, we're on the same page. Now, so far, here's the differences between McNair and "My Man" Kyle. McNair has better pocket awareness and anyone can see that this team plays with more confidence with McNair in the lineup. As far as accuracy, there isn't much difference. Boller threw balls to the opposition, McNair throws them in the dirt. With that said, you expected McNair to have a slow start. The Ravens signed him late, and he is learning a new offense. Regardless of if he has been around since Moses, it takes time to learn where your receivers are going to be. Basically, McNair gets a free pass up until the midseason. As of right now, he is struggling but the Ravens are 2-0.

Right?

I guess I'm not the only one who sees that he still needs time, I expected him to start out slow.

[StingerNLG]

According to team members, it is McNair that has given them a spark.


It hasn't sparked his offensive line, that's for sure.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

I'm trying really hard to resist getting really involved in this thread.

I will say that I agree completely with Poe...especially his point about the QB's record against Tampa.

It's nice to say that we would have beaten them as soundly IF KYLE PLAYED MANAGED THE GAME THE SAME WAY STEVE DID. But I have a hard time beleiving that Kyle wouldn't have become rattled at some point and committed a crucial TO that may have completely changed the complexion of the game...and I base that opinion on watching Kyle when he plays on the road...he just is a very poor road QB.

[Mobtown]

It hasn't sparked his offensive line, that's for sure.

They haven't been the bulging siv that most expected.

[FadeToBlack]

Since this thread is many pages deep, I'm sure nothing I'll say hasn't already been said. But the reason McNair gets a free pass is because of his body of work as compared to Kyle's body of work. McNair has rightfully been regarded as an excellent quarterback for many, many years. So naturally, when he isn't excellent, we feel there must be a good reason for it. When Boller plays poorly, we just expect it. And that's the difference.

Brett Favre is another example of how the free pass gets applied. Perhaps no QB in NFL history gets the free pass as much as #4.

If McNair continues to struggle, the free pass should be taken away. But given his past, it's reasonable to expect he won't struggle like this for much longer, unless of course he's at the end of the road.

[Heap86]

The Boller Huggers will not cut McNair an inch of slack. Anything other than a MVP type performance from McNair will not be acceptable to them.

[Mista T]

The Boller Huggers will not cut McNair an inch of slack.

Perhaps the fan's expectations are indeed somewhat higher higher after investing $33 million.



Anything other than a MVP type performance from McNair will not be acceptable to them.

That's a totally unfounded statement. Not a single post mentioned expecting an MVP.

However, the expectation has to be higher than last Sunday's performance which resulted in a 58 rating with multiple Red Zone failures. We will have a tough time competing in this Division if passing is not improved. Only playing great Defense and 100 yards rushing offense is not going to do it.


:mrt:

[Heap86]

However, the expectation has to be higher than last Sunday's performance which resulted in a 58 rating with multiple Red Zone failures. We will have a tough time competing in this Division if passing is not improved. Only playing great Defense and 100 yards rushing offense is not going to do it.

Did you really expect McNair to start off the season a 100% in control of the Offense and the Playbook? I didn't, and most of you expected the same thing. But once again you guys are complaining about something you expected, go figure.

Like I have said many times since Sunday, I am not happy with McNair's performance, but I am going to cut him some slack because he is still learning the offense, but alot of you guys are not willing to do that. I cut Boller alot of slack when he first started out, but after that there was no slack to cut him. For you guys that are ready to throw McNair under the bus after two games, maybe you should jump on another teams bandwagon, because like it or not, Boller is still not the starter.

Once again I will point out Mike Preston's quote, and I may add that it is the only time I have ever agreed with the man


Chris and Chris. You're starting trouble. I didn't want to mention "My Man" Kyle's name, but I have to answer your question. The first game I gave McNair a C+. He would have gotten a C, but he threw a late touchdown pass. Against Oakland, I gave him a D. So, we're on the same page. Now, so far, here's the differences between McNair and "My Man" Kyle. McNair has better pocket awareness and anyone can see that this team plays with more confidence with McNair in the lineup. As far as accuracy, there isn't much difference. Boller threw balls to the opposition, McNair throws them in the dirt. With that said, you expected McNair to have a slow start. The Ravens signed him late, and he is learning a new offense. Regardless of if he has been around since Moses, it takes time to learn where your receivers are going to be. Basically, McNair gets a free pass up until the midseason. As of right now, he is struggling but the Ravens are 2-0.

Right?

[Mista T]

For you guys that are ready to throw McNair under the bus after two games, maybe you should jump on another teams bandwagon,

I believe that you may be missing the whole point as to why we created the new board, i.e. to have debates about the Ravens without resorting to insulting one another. I have suffered through a decade of QB mediocrity on this team; I have supported Baltimore football through thick and thin since the Unitas era; possibly attended more live Ravens games than 99.9% of the fans ... and have never wavered on my support to the team. I find a comment like jumping on another teams' bandwagon to be reprehensible. Because I am critical of a 58 rating passing performance? It's my right as a fan to criticize mediocre performance. Why not tell Derrick Mason to jump off the bandwagon - he was more blunt than anyone on this board in assessing our offensive performance as an "F" (and he wasn't referring to the running game).




because like it or not, Boller is still not the starter.

I don't care who starts as long as we can get a passing game. So far, with the exception of the back-to-back December 2005 night games, we haven't seen a consistent quality passing attack since the 2nd half of the '99 season. I would dearly love to see that factoid changed.

:mrt:

[Heap86]

I believe that you may be missing the whole point as to why we created the new board, i.e. to have debates about the Ravens without resorting to insulting one another. I have suffered through a decade of QB mediocrity on this team; I have supported Baltimore football through thick and thin since the Unitas era; possibly attended more live Ravens games than 99.9% of the fans ... and have never wavered on my support to the team. I find a comment like jumping on another teams' bandwagon to be reprehensible. Because I am critical of a 58 rating passing performance? It's my right as a fan to criticize mediocre performance. Why not tell Derrick Mason to jump off the bandwagon - he was more blunt than anyone on this board in assessing our offensive performance as an "F" (and he wasn't referring to the running game).

Derrick Mason was talking about the Offensive performance as a whole, Did he throw his Quarterback under the Bus? I don't think so. Of course he and the Offense are frustrated with the lack of production, but he did'nt point fingers. Its alot of problems, and McNair was one of them, and I think the more knowledgable of the playbook and surroundings Steve gets, the better the passing game will be, I just feel that everyone is jumping the gun by throwing Mac under the bus, we did expect a slow start from him, did'nt we?

And Mista T, you have been critical of McNair since we aquired him.

BTW, I apologize if the Bandwagon thing insulted you, it was just out of frustration.

[Mista T]

And Mista T, you have been critical of McNair since we aquired him.


Let's clarify that. I was and still am critical of the front office for overspending $33 million for a former great who is, in my opinion, on the decline and injury prone. His apparent inability or unwillingness to throw deep just adds to my criticism of that FO decision. Unlike some others here, I did not see the 33 year old McNair as a major improvement over what we had. Specifically: a solid passing game was put on during the 120 minutes of December night football, giving me some confidence that we were on the verge of fixing the offensive problems after many years. I could not see the logic of decimating our salary cap when it looked like a mere tweak was needed, i.e. a few million per year vet to upgrade over Anthony Wright, with better use of the huge sum of $$$$ towards other needs, such as OL upgrade.

Thus far, the only impressive passing offense we have seen from McNair has been the opening drive at Tampa. I don't think he's demonstrated being worth $33 million since. I sure hope for improvement, or we may not be competitive after the soft part of the schedule is over

As far as McNair himself goes: he tries hard and acts like a professional at all times. I thought that, at ages 25-29, he was in the top ten of NFL QBs. If he can revert to that form and lead a productive offense, I'd be thrilled. I am tired of the same old Ravens offensive ineptitude. I want nothing more than Ravens victories, be it McNair, Boller, Olsen, of TBD taking snaps.

:mrt:

[highwater]

And Mista T, you have been critical of McNair since we aquired him.

So? What's your point? Mista T has been about clear about his reasons for not liking some aspects of the signing, and expressed them without resorting to the sort of cheap shots that have been so typical of some of the Boller fanatics. I don't see the problem.

In fact, this thread is becoming very familiar. . . think I'll check out the main forum and take a break from this one.

[StingerNLG]

Brett Favre is another example of how the free pass gets applied. Perhaps no QB in NFL history gets the free pass as much as #4.

I think around the league the free pass on Brett Favre is about done. I've heard a lot of people wrenching their hands over his return this year. The words "holding his team hostage" have been used to describe Brett these days. And you see no one is taking Green Bay as a serious team this year from what I've read.

[Greg]

I am not critical of McNair, he could have played better but given his newness to the other players (system, shmystem, NFL offenses are very similar from one to another for the most part, just terminology changes) I will cut him some slack.

That being said, Boller didn't get slack after 2 very good performances last year. I don't think the book is written on Boller, he hasn't had a very good OL and up until last year didn't have 2 competent WRs at any time. Then he gets hurt, takes a few weeks to get back to not being rusty and then has 2 very good games before laying an egg with the rest of the team.

Point being, there are plenty of "reasons" for Boller to have not consistently played lights out as well. If those on both sides would cut as much slack for their less favorite QB as they do their own the reasonableness on this board would go way up.

McNair is the better option and unless he gets hurt that won't change.

[purplepoe]

Sigh.

This whole thread is about McNair getting some sort of free pass.

And despite a few comments, it's pretty obvious that most people are happy with the 2-0 but concerned about the passing offense.

Sure there are those who think this team is already set for the playoffs. You've got to ignore them.

Again, McNair isn't getting this free pass that so many think he is. He's received criticism and will continue to until his play improves.

And no, not as much as Boller would have. Is it really hard to see why? Boller has shown us a pattern of extreme inconsistencies and very slow development.

Do the people who think this double standard exists think that this team is just as good with Boller starting at QB?

PP

[Mista T]

Do the people who think this double standard exists think that this team is just as good with Boller starting at QB?

I do think there is somewhat of a 2x standard, although it is exaggerated in this discussion. There was some mild criticism of the passing game Sunday in the stands and in the media. But there would have been a scalping if Kyle had that type of performance.

As to PP's question: I would expect that this team would have a better passing game under McNair than Boller. Thus far, however, even those who view McNair as the panacea would have to admit that his performance has not been up to the level of Boller's 2005 late season perfomance. McNair should stay as the starter for the next several games, at least, to see if he can get something going, and hopefully the egg he laid last Sunday was just an aberration.

I would much rather to be talking about a 100+ rated passer and our team's Red Zone proficiency.:laugh:



Gee, that was'nt an attack was it?

Gee, can we all just stick to the debate about the players, not the posters!

:mrt:




















:mrt:

[purplepoe]

I do think there is somewhat of a 2x standard, although it is exaggerated in this discussion. There was some mild criticism of the passing game Sunday in the stands and in the media. But there would have been a scalping if Kyle had that type of performance.

As to PP's question: I would expect that this team would have a better passing game under McNair than Boller. Thus far, however, even those who view McNair as the panacea would have to admit that his performance has not been up to the level of Boller's 2005 late season perfomance. McNair should stay as the starter for the next several games, at least, to see if he can get something going, and hopefully the egg he laid last Sunday was just an aberration.

I would much rather to be talking about a 100+ rated passer and our team's Red Zone proficiency.:laugh: :mrt:

I agree with you that a slight double standard exists in the fact that McNair is receiving less flack. However, no free pass has been issued.

I expect the passing game to be better as well and it has been subpar so far. As far as Boller's late season performances. Yes, he played well in 2 games at home. Then he played like a complete dog in the finale vs. Cleveland on the road.

Im with you on the 100+ passer rating. Hell, I'll take 85+.

PP

[Heap86]

Yes, he played well in 2 games at home. Then he played like a complete dog in the finale vs. Cleveland on the road.

I agree, Boller looked pretty good all year at home, but he was a completely different Quarterback on the road. It seemed like he was almost intimidated of other teams fans and staduim. McNair has already proved that he can be poised and focused on the road, which will lead to more wins this year.

If Boller would have had a great game in the season finale last year, I don't think we would even have McNair at this point.

[highwater]

In spite of all this bickering, it seems to me that most of us agree on a few very important points -- we know McNair has a proven track record, we agree that he had a bad game in the home opener, and we think the passing game will improve.

Why don't we give this debate a rest until the next game. When we get into these QB debates, we seem to lose sight of an important fact -- we all want the Ravens to win.

Let's see what happens in the Browns game, and we can pick up this discussion again (if anyone wants to).

[RavenDavey]

How many people were ready for Anthony Wright when Boller went down last Year? Most of our Boller-haters thought he was the end all to the QB woes! He stepped into the Raven offensive blender like every previous quarterback! Not many people left on his wagon are there?
McNair....ahem..offensive MVP and pro bowler....is expected to take our offense up to the next level through his performance, and quickly. There is an adjustment time, but he should not get a free pass for making terrible and sloppy throws yesterday. These are basics of QB101 and looked bad, yet the Boller-haters would have been calling for his head even with a come back. I am thrilled to have McNair and his potential, but I'm comfortable and ready for Kyle Boller to step in when McNair goes down due to offensive line concerns.

[RavenDavey]

I think you misread my last statement Tex. I'm thrilled to have McNair and expect McNair to play every game and hope he stays healthy. I'm not expecting him to be benched if favor of Kyle as he brings far more to the table as a starting QB. I hope he stays healthy and uninjured!! I'm stating that I'm ok if Kyle has to come in and play and with the support of teammates and fans, he knows the offense and will perform. Having the opportunity to watch McNair and learn from the sidelines will make Kyle a more complete QB as he was thrown into the "blender" as a rookie.

[Art-Florida]

"YOu cannot be serious with your last statement? If we don't have McNair and Boller started the first three games this season we would be lucky to be 1-2. No way he wins either of these road games..."

Wow, they have crystall balls in Maryland that can predict the past? I need to get on E-Bay right away before they're all sold out. I'm dying to find out who won our season opener against the Bucs, and who won the last Superbowl with Batch starting.

[RavenDavey]

Every streak comes to an end......

[Mista T]

If we don't have McNair and Boller started the first three games this season we would be lucky to be 1-2. No way he wins either of these road games.

So Boller would have lost the game when the Defense threw a shutout? :229031_confused2:

Absurd.

What would have happened yesterday is conjecture. Maybe with Boller's stronger arm, there would have been more completions in the wind. Then again, maybe with Boller's propensity to turn over the ball at the worst times, we would have lost. There's no way of knowing.

:mrt:

[crazyraven]

I'm just happy we won. Mcnair took this team down the field in the final minutes and put Stover is a perfect place to kick a game winning FG. Its a team game and we won it as a team. In the past we weren't playing as a team and I suspect it was because of the bad chemistry from the Offensive output. As for a crystal ball I agree with Art that nobody knows what would happen but given the history of our back-up hasn't exactly lit it up on the road, so that's why I feel Tex isn't too far off base with his analysis .

...and for Those who are counting money, I'd say Mcnair has earn at least 4 million of his 11 Million signing bonus: 3 mil for the wins and 1 mil for getting this team to play like a team. Its still early but so far things are looking good.

3-0 Baby!

GOD BLESS RAY LEWIS AND STEVE MCNAIR :thumbup:

[StingerNLG]

and put Stover in a perfect place to kick a game winning FG.

:eek:

You know that was a 52 yard field goal, right?

[Mobtown]

Stinger,

I can;t tell what your issue seems to be..

Mac had a good day...not a great day, not a "light the world on fire" day...but he definately had a good day.

In case you dont believe me:

PASSING ATT CMP YDS SK/YD TD LG IN RTS.
McNair 41 23 264 2/10 1 38 0 83.8


I know that some of you would love to see more Palmer-esque downfield bombs and some Manning-esque TD numbers, but that is NOT the guy we hired.

We hired a crusty vet who knows how to stand strong in the face of pressure and deliver the ball where it needs to go.

We hired a guy who is more heart than stat machine.

Most important, we hired a guy who this offense and this team could believe would stand in there and make magic happen.

...and that is exactly what Mac has done by bringinig our team to 3-0 for the first time in its history.

Many of you are in for a long season of misery and disappointment until you let go of this idea that Mac is going to light up the score board and complete 80% of his passes week in and week out. That's not why he is here.

[StingerNLG]

Mobtown. Stover doesn't make this field goal. What's your reaction to yesterday's game?

My issue is exactly what I said in other threads. We were sold a better offense based on a new QB. So far that better offense hasn't shown up. You can say it did, but in two weeks I haven't seen it. I just watched us have to come from behind on the freaking Cleveland Browns. 3 points in the first half against the Browns defense Mob, 3 points. And it's a damn good thing the wind was to our back in the 4th quarter or we walk out of that game with a loss.

Sorry, but that doesn't excite me to believe next week we're going to go out and roll over the Chargers.

MAC has not brought our team to 3-0. Our defense brought us to 2-0, and if you want to credit McNair and not Matt Stover's incredible leg yesterday then I can accept that. But I am not pretending he's been the savior all the hype has led up to. We get past San Diego and Denver with some actual offense, then I'll feel better about things.

[italianjoker]

Many of you are in for a long season of misery and disappointment until you let go of this idea that Mac is going to light up the score board and complete 80% of his passes week in and week out. That's not why he is here.


and many of you can not discuss football. wins and losses are the end all and be all. that is for sure and no one disputes that. that being said, there is no reason why McBoller should hot catch crap for playing like crap. throw the stats up all you like. situation is reversed and Boller does what McBoller is doing and Boller gets a new a$$hole torn by people on these message boards and radio shows.

no one can discuss this stuff. everyone seems to think if you ignore it, it will just go away. this team will lose a lot of games if they do not improve this offense.

[highwater]

this team will lose a lot of games if they do not improve this offense.

I couldn't agree more. So many of us were so thrilled about coming from behind to win, we're ignoring the fact that this offense sucked for three and a half quarters. And it's basically the same problems the players on offense acknowledged after last week's Oakland game. Based on the player quotes I've seen so far, they're ignoring how bad they were too. I trust their tune will change after the thrill of victory has subsided and the coaches show them the tapes of this game.

[Mobtown]

Mobtown. Stover doesn't make this field goal. What's your reaction to yesterday's game?

That Cleveland outplayed us and that we deserved to lose.


My issue is exactly what I said in other threads. We were sold a better offense based on a new QB. So far that better offense hasn't shown up. You can say it did, but in two weeks I haven't seen it. I just watched us have to come from behind on the freaking Cleveland Browns. 3 points in the first half against the Browns defense Mob, 3 points. And it's a damn good thing the wind was to our back in the 4th quarter or we walk out of that game with a loss.

You are selling the Browns short, they are much tougher than their record shows. RAC, Edwards, Winslow, Wimbly, Jackson and Frye will be forces for years to come. Better get used to it. And don't discount that this was probably one of their biggest two or three games of the year. They were up...way up.

I believe that our Offense (with the exception of the "defficient on any team" OL) is still gelling and expanding their playbook. Frankly, given the pumped up Cleveland front seven, I am not all that disappointed with the OL performance.

This team will likely take much more from a close, hard fought win than a blowout. I shouldn't have to say it since we are 3-0, but you guys need to be patient with these guys. They should only continue to get better.



Sorry, but that doesn't excite me to believe next week we're going to go out and roll over the Chargers.

Then I can't help you. Our team went to war in a hostile environment and came out on top. Honestly, I'll take the exact same game next week. I don't need to roll over anyone. I just need wins.


MAC has not brought our team to 3-0. Our defense brought us to 2-0, and if you want to credit McNair and not Matt Stover's incredible leg yesterday then I can accept that. But I am not pretending he's been the savior all the hype has led up to. We get past San Diego and Denver with some actual offense, then I'll feel better about things.

I credit all the players who showed up in Q4: Mac, Stover, Clayton, Mason, CMAC, Scott, etc, etc, etc. It was a GREAT team effort. If you let the hype about Mac get to you then you never had a very realistic idea of what Mac brings (see previous post) to this team.

How about we get past SD and Denver with 2 W's? Or does the O have to put up 50 points and 500 yards before you will believe?


and many of you can not discuss football.

I am happy to discuss it. Please forgive me if I choose to enjoy the W for more than 5 minutes.


we're ignoring the fact that this offense sucked for three and a half quarters.

Sorry, but you are just wrong. Did you even look at the stats from yesterday? With the exception of a minor variance in passing yards (34 gross yards) and a 2% difference in 3rd down conversions we won all of the battles in that game...especially the big ones, turnovers, TOP, etc.

Was it pretty? Oh, HELL no. But it wasn't nearly as bad as you guys are making it out to be.

[Mobtown]

throw the stats up all you like. situation is reversed and Boller does what McBoller is doing and Boller gets a new a$$hole torn by people on these message boards and radio shows.


First, Boller had 3 years and 20+ starts to prove he was the guy. He failed, let it go.

Second, if the situation was reversed and we were 3-0 with Boller under C people would be screaming that Boller had finally turned the corner and that we were on our way to 16-0.

[braven]

let's just hope that we can carry that offensive momentum from the 4th quarter over to the SD game

[StingerNLG]

How about we get past SD and Denver with 2 W's? Or does the O have to put up 50 points and 500 yards before you will believe?

Ok Mob. We can go back and forth for the next week about everything else, so I'll answer this one straight out.

We were sold that Steve McNair would change this offense. Kyle Boller was THE problem, and therefore McNair would be the guy to make this an offensive juggernaut. So here is what I want:

1) I don't want go into halftime with only three points against a team like the Cleveland Browns.

2) I'd like to see the offense start getting into the redzone and actually scoring touchdowns since we bitched so much las year about only settling for field goals.

3) I'd like to see our MVP QB who was supposed to change the dynamic of this offense score more than 1 touchdown per game. '

4) I'd like to never again see this offense GO BACKWARDS on CONSECUTIVE DRIVES.

5) I'd like not to have to close my eyes and wonder if the wind is going to carry Matt Stover's field goal 52 yards downfield.

6) Here's a novel idea. I'd like to see our offense go downfield for a change. And if not, how about we stop throwing 3rd down passes short of the 1st down marker?

7) Yes, I'd like to see more than 143 and 148 yards in a game total passing. Aren't we right now right back to where we usually head towards in passing rank?

So let's just start with these. Because let me tell you guys, we have some TOUGH games ahead. San Diego, AT Denver, Carolina, and AT NO. If this offense doesn't pick it's game up, 3-0 can be 3-3 VERY quick.

And before anyone goes back to the whole "McNair has to learn the system", Drew Brees spent most of the offseason with a shoulder injury. And went to a new team. And a team that doesn't have the weapons on offense we do outside of Joe Horn and Reggie Bush (Deuce McAlister is NOT as good as Jamal when Jamal is 100%). Yet Drew seems to have that offense down pretty good. So why can't Steve?

[FHRaven]

What he said. :iagree:

I'm still hopeful that McNair is working out the kinks in learning the offense and realizing that having Flynn at C means he needs to throw or start running when the ball is snapped!!

FHRaven

[Mobtown]

We were sold that Steve McNair would change this offense. Kyle Boller was THE problem, and therefore McNair would be the guy to make this an offensive juggernaut. So here is what I want:




I think this is where you made a mistake. I don't remember anyone saying that the Ravens offense would suddenly become a juggernaut when SM arrived. KB was the problem in that he was a horrible decision maker and had lost the respect of his offense. We are a grind it out, control the clock type of team...we always have been and bringing SM in wasn't and shouldn't change that.

As I said earlier, SM is a General and he rarely makes mistakes. He has only turned the ball over ONE time since being here and and has almost 600 passing yards in his first 3 games.

Most important, his team believes in him.

Look, I can understand fans wanting to have more TDs this year, I can completely agree with that, but our running game has been pretty poor so far and we ARE still a run first offense. My point being that if you need to blame someone for our lack of TDs, SM is the wrong guy to be pointing a finger at. Our RB crew, OL and OC need to figure out how to get the red zone running game working.



1) I don't want go into halftime with only three points against a team like the Cleveland Browns.


I agree, but to lay our poor red zone performance at SM's feet is silly. How about the terrible play calling from the OC and how about the lack of push from our OL?


2) I'd like to see the offense start getting into the redzone and actually scoring touchdowns since we bitched so much las year about only settling for field goals.


Again, I doubt SM is calling the plays. When passing SM has done a decent job of getting the ball to the open guy in the endzone. Heap x 2. It's Fassell who is the tard who keeps trying to jam Jamal through the guards at the goal line.


3) I'd like to see our MVP QB who was supposed to change the dynamic of this offense score more than 1 touchdown per game. '


Mac has changed the dynamic of this O by throwing for 200+ yards a game and not turning the ball over and not taking sacks. Last year I would have droolled over a 200+ yard passing game.


4) I'd like to never again see this offense GO BACKWARDS on CONSECUTIVE DRIVES.

Can't argue with that...but again, I think you are targeting the wrong guy.


5) I'd like not to have to close my eyes and wonder if the wind is going to carry Matt Stover's field goal 52 yards downfield.


Me too, but this is the NFL and that sort of shit WILL happen.



6) Here's a novel idea. I'd like to see our offense go downfield for a change. And if not, how about we stop throwing 3rd down passes short of the 1st down marker?


Mac is not a deep threat guy and he hasn't been for years. That is not what our 33mil was for. I do hope that we throw a few deep over the next few games if for no other reason than to keep the D guessing, but I do not expect that we will become a downfield type of team anytime soon. The short 3rd down passes bother me too, but again I am not sure you can blame Mac. Receivers have to know where the marker is and get there. I have yet to see a receiver come back accross the 1st down line to make a catch on an underthrown ball.


7) Yes, I'd like to see more than 143 and 148 yards in a game total passing. Aren't we right now right back to where we usually head towards in passing rank?


/shrug I dont know...part of me agrees with you but part of me says that if our running game is working, then there is no reason to throw all day long. 150 yards or so should be good enough. In fact, for a run oriented team, huge passing numbers usually indicate that we are playing alot of come from behind ball...and that doesn't sound so good to me.


So let's just start with these. Because let me tell you guys, we have some TOUGH games ahead. San Diego, AT Denver, Carolina, and AT NO. If this offense doesn't pick it's game up, 3-0 can be 3-3 VERY quick.

Tough? Maybe...I am not particularly scared of any of those offenses. Especially NO and SD. NO has Horn and Brees and thats it. Their run game is highly overrated IMO. SD is completely untested having only played Oak and Ten. Carolina is still a question mark for me...which Carolina will show up at M&T? Traditionally we have owned Denver and I don't see that trend changing since Plummer is a turnover machine and their running game has been only so-so. Keep in mind that our D is playing with inspiration, so no..I am not scared.

Cinci and Pittsburgh on the other hand are going to be tough games. We still have a few more weeks to worry about them. Honestly, I see no reason why we couldn't be 6-0 or 7-0 based on this schedule.




And before anyone goes back to the whole "McNair has to learn the system", Drew Brees spent most of the offseason with a shoulder injury. And went to a new team. And a team that doesn't have the weapons on offense we do outside of Joe Horn and Reggie Bush (Deuce McAlister is NOT as good as Jamal when Jamal is 100%). Yet Drew seems to have that offense down pretty good. So why can't Steve?


I don't see "learing the system" as an excuse anymore either. Time for Fassell to open the playbook a little wider. Screens would be nice to see and more three step drops would both play to our strengths. Again I will point out that Mac is not the guy calling the plays and that this part of the discussion belongs in another thread.

Great post btw Stinger. It's nice chatting with someone who doesn't need to resort to name calling to get their point across.

[StingerNLG]

Mac has changed the dynamic of this O by throwing for 200+ yards a game and not turning the ball over and not taking sacks. Last year I would have droolled over a 200+ yard passing game.

No he hasn't. Other than Sunday, which was he had 181 and 143 yards respectively. He hasn't thrown for 200+ yards a game. And last year we had 4 200+ games and a 198 game.


Other than that, I think you're making a lot of excuses are being made for McNair. The same excuses no one wanted to make for Boller last 2 years when the same thing was happening to him. Well, when his OL didn't get him hurt last year. I was under the impression the QB was responsible for the offense. That's what we heard all of 2004-2005. Now all of a sudden we're targetting everyone else for the offensive woes?

Such the reversal of fortune.

[Art-Florida]

When all you Boller-haters finally stop knocking the kid, sanity might return. All the cretins who loudly proclaim what "would have happened" if this were true, and that were true, are just begging for people to respond in kind, from fairness, if no other reason.

If you persist in this vindicative crusade against a nice kid who is not even playing, I predict you will start to see anti-McNair statements, and I'm not talking about valid ones, like weak, arm, old age, and accuracy. I mean nasty, venomous, stupid ones like we have seen regarding Boller for years now.

You won't see any of those those from me, please let me add. Steve McNair is a helluva nice guy, and a warrior. He does not deserve that kind of vilification, but neither does Kyle Boller.

But they're coming, mark my words. Go to YBR, with their semi-literate children of all ages punching out poison to see what I'm talking about. To the haters who have been bleating, "let it go", I say follow your own suggestion.

[FHRaven]

Look, I can understand fans wanting to have more TDs this year, I can completely agree with that, but our running game has been pretty poor so far and we ARE still a run first offense. My point being that if you need to blame someone for our lack of TDs, SM is the wrong guy to be pointing a finger at. Our RB crew, OL and OC need to figure out how to get the red zone running game working.

Mobtown, why are all of these reasons to exclude McNair from blame when none of them were allowed in defense of Kyle?

We were told that McNair was going to solve ALL of the offensive woes because ALL of the problems were because of Kyle. I've probably heard 100 people say the OLine would be better with a better QB among other things. After 3 games I just don't see it or any other real improvement.

The real schedule starts Sunday. I hope I am wrong and McNair leads an offensive charge that helps win the game!!!!! :thumbup:

FHRaven

[Mista T]

NO has Horn and Brees and thats it. Their run game is highly overrated IMO.



Bush and Deuce McAlister overated? :229031_confused2:

The way things stand right now, we could be a TD underdog going into the Superdome on Halloween.

We have a murderous schedule coming up against the AFC West and NFC South. Four contenders. If we continued offensive performance such as the past couple weeks, we could be looking at 3-4. We have to step it up!

:mrt:

[Mobtown]

Other than that, I think you're making a lot of excuses are being made for McNair. The same excuses no one wanted to make for Boller last 2 years when the same thing was happening to him. Well, when his OL didn't get him hurt last year. I was under the impression the QB was responsible for the offense. That's what we heard all of 2004-2005. Now all of a sudden we're targetting everyone else for the offensive woes?


Mobtown, why are all of these reasons to exclude McNair from blame when none of them were allowed in defense of Kyle?

We were told that McNair was going to solve ALL of the offensive woes because ALL of the problems were because of Kyle. I've probably heard 100 people say the OLine would be better with a better QB among other things. After 3 games I just don't see it or any other real improvement.

Holy crap! It's like listening to a broken record with you guys! I swear that some of you are blinded by your involvement in the Hater/Hugger "debate". Let me say it plain for those who seem to care:

I WAS NOT ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO WAS TEARING BOLLER DOWN. I HAVE BEEN A SUPPORTER OF KYLE BOLLER SINCE BEFORE HE WAS DRAFTED.

FFS the guy was the QB of my Alma Mater and for that reason alone I will support him regardless of what he does and regardless of what people say about him.

My major issue with Boller's play as a Raven's QB was tendancy to make unforced errors and bad decisions. That doesn't make me a hugger OR a hater.

So far, I haven't seen that sort of play from Mac. In fact he pulled our asses out of the fire last week after our vaunted D gave up two TDs against the Browns!

If you believed the 100 (where ever you pulled that # from FH) people who told you that Mac was going to light up the sky and turn us into the #1 O in the league...well, I am sorry for you and all I can say is that you should have had more realistic expectations and maybe even have done some research on your own instead of believing a bunch of Monday QBs (myself included) on a message board. I certainly don't remember the coaching staff or FO saying any such thing.

[Raven31]

he pulled our asses out of the fire last week after our vaunted D gave up two TDs against the Browns!
I believe C-Mac and Stover had something to do with it as well. Without C-Mac's INT in the endzone, McNair never even gets the opportunity to get us in FG range. And THANK GOD for Matt Stover being one of the most reliable, accurate kickers in the league.

[StingerNLG]

If you believed the 100 (where ever you pulled that # from FH) people who told you that Mac was going to light up the sky and turn us into the #1 O in the league...well, I am sorry for you and all I can say is that you should have had more realistic expectations and maybe even have done some research on your own instead of believing a bunch of Monday QBs (myself included) on a message board. I certainly don't remember the coaching staff or FO saying any such thing.


You missed what he was saying. What FH said was 100% true. We were told the following:

1) McNair would make the OL look and play better. Hasn't happened.

2) With McNair on the field, gone would be the days of 8 men in the box. Hasn't happened.

3) Under McNair, we would finally finish drives with touchdowns instead of having to settle for field goals. Definitely hasn't happened.

Mob, if you want to believe this offense is so radically different that it's the reason we're 3-0, and not because of our defense, that's ok. But yesterday's and last Sunday's performance will NOT win us games in the next 4 weeks. It just won't.

And for all this talk of McNair elevating the play of the OL, which is what we were told, Pashos and Vincent are still good for a drive killing penalty every game. Mike Flynn still can't lock down the middle. And we still can't give receivers time to get open and go downfield.

I don't care if they all jump up and down in the huddle because Steve McNair is sharing the same air as they are. It hasn't changed their play very much.

And for the last time, Matt Stover pulled our ass out of the fire with an out-of-the-normal-range field goal. Perhaps if 2nd and 3rd down weren't incomplete passes, maybe Stover would only have had to kick a 35-40 yarder instead of a monster 52 yarder.

Sorry, I refuse to bury my head in the sand and pretend this offense has gotten better simply because we're 3-0 against teams with a combined 0-8 record. If we were playing NO last night, they would have torn us apart. If we were playing Seattle Sunday it would have been over by halftime.

You don't exite me and prove to me this offense has turned around by scoring 3 points in the first half.

[highwater]

Go to YBR, with their semi-literate children of all ages punching out poison to see what I'm talking about. To the haters who have been bleating, "let it go", I say follow your own suggestion.

Art, I couldn't have said it better myself (and how I hate to admit that).

Even on this board, there are people who insist on continuing to talk about a QB who hasn't thrown a single pass and has hardly seen the field at all. Like Art said, follow you own advice and let it go.

As far as McNair goes, I haven't seen anything here that amounts to a character assassination, just honest observations about his performance. I am pretty sure that is allowed.

[crazyraven]

Even on this board, there are people who insist on continuing to talk about a QB who hasn't thrown a single pass and has hardly seen the field at all. Like Art said, follow you own advice and let it go

Who are these people you are talking about? The only people are who talking about the other QB are the ones who defend him till death and want to make unreasonable comparisons to one of the leagues most celebrated QBs. The fact is the original posters (and hard core boller lovers) real aim is to bash anyone who went after the other QB. Most people are just happy we are 3-0 and that we have a leaders on both sides of the ball. Those who have an ax to grind are the ones who are the most vocal in this tread.

Again were 3-0 and some people are walking around here calling mcnair names like McBoller. knock yourselves out I guess but it just stinks from my prospective.



GOD BLESS RAY LEWIS AND STEVE MCNAIR :thumbup:

[Dabruise]

FYI, McNair's stats for these three games are pretty darned close to his career stats so everyone needs to get used to this. He doesn't play much better. But he plays well enough to win.

CAREER

83.1 rating 195 yds/game 59.4% 1 TD per 25 att 1 int/38 att 1.12 TD/GM

2006

78.3 rating 196 yds/game 55.4% 1 TD per 33 att :thumbdown: 1 int/101 att :thumbup: 1 TD/GM

BTW, aside from a couple of seasons his stats have been fairly consistently low. But his wins have been consistently high.

[purplepoe]

Dabruise's stats don't lie.

It's what McNair does.

McNair has done pretty much exactly what I thought he'd do. Not make any big mistakes, buy himself some time in the pocket, avoid sacks, and win games.

Does his play need to improve? Absolutely.

We'll get a real sense of exactly what we're made of this Sunday.

PP

[Mista T]

aside from a couple of seasons his stats have been fairly consistently low. But his wins have been consistently high.

Eddie George.

And don't forget which team had the NFL's #1 ranked defense in 2000.

[purplepoe]

Eddie George.

And don't forget which team had the NFL's #1 ranked defense in 2000.

Cmon Ted.

GB had the top ranked Pass D last year too. You think they were the best Pass D in the league?

And McNair went to the SB in 99.

Of course you have to be surrounded by good players to make a deep playoff run.

PP

[Mobtown]

You missed what he was saying. What FH said was 100% true. We were told the following:

1) McNair would make the OL look and play better. Hasn't happened.

2) With McNair on the field, gone would be the days of 8 men in the box. Hasn't happened.

3) Under McNair, we would finally finish drives with touchdowns instead of having to settle for field goals. Definitely hasn't happened.


I don't know. The OL hasn't looked good, but when you look at the stats, they haven't looked terrible either. Only 5 sacks given up in 3 games. In general, I think it's too early to start tearing the Ravens down. You simply can't argue with 3-0.

I am notsaying that the O is playing perfectly and I can certainly agree with the first two points, but i sincerely believe that the third point is a result is shitty playcalling and not because of personel.



Mob, if you want to believe this offense is so radically different that it's the reason we're 3-0, and not because of our defense, that's ok. But yesterday's and last Sunday's performance will NOT win us games in the next 4 weeks. It just won't.

And for all this talk of McNair elevating the play of the OL, which is what we were told, Pashos and Vincent are still good for a drive killing penalty every game. Mike Flynn still can't lock down the middle. And we still can't give receivers time to get open and go downfield.

Again, I don't think it's as bad as you are making it seem. Burgess is no joke (neither are the Bucs despite how their O has played) and over all I think the pass protection has been adequate. Not great, but adequate. It's the run blocking that I think needs some serious work. Has Mac made an impact on the OL? We may never know since there is very little to compare it against. Game 3 is too early to say IMHO.



And for the last time, Matt Stover pulled our ass out of the fire with an out-of-the-normal-range field goal. Perhaps if 2nd and 3rd down weren't incomplete passes, maybe Stover would only have had to kick a 35-40 yarder instead of a monster 52 yarder.

Talk about a double standard. Mac gets all the blame for the poor red zone play but gets NO credit for the come from behind win? Please, you are starting to lose me Stinger.


Sorry, I refuse to bury my head in the sand and pretend this offense has gotten better simply because we're 3-0 against teams with a combined 0-8 record. If we were playing NO last night, they would have torn us apart. If we were playing Seattle Sunday it would have been over by halftime.

You don't have to bury your head in the sand, but the truth is (look it up @ nfl.com) this O HAS gotten better when compared to where we were just one year ago. Maybe they just haven't gotten better enough for your standards. I am OK with that, but you should realize that they are improving and maybe have a little patience.


You don't exite me and prove to me this offense has turned around by scoring 3 points in the first half.

I get the feeling that nothing short of the 50pt/500yrd game that I referenced earlier would excite you. This isn't fantasy football. Slow and steady DOES win the race.



Who are these people you are talking about? The only people are who talking about the other QB are the ones who defend him till death and want to make unreasonable comparisons to one of the leagues most celebrated QBs.

I am confused by this too. Who are you guys talking about?

[Dabruise]

Eddie George.

And don't forget which team had the NFL's #1 ranked defense in 2000.


That's exactly why there's reason for optimism for our team this year.

Stinger and Mobtown, I'd suggest getting away from the personal, one-on-one discussions. That's a slippery slope and here it's two strikes and your out.

[StingerNLG]

Hrmf......And we were being good. :(

What if we talked in the third person? ;)

[Irishraven]

I'm not knocking McNair at all...

I think he is brilliant for this organization, the only thing was, I thought he might be having an off game on Sunday and things just weren't going right...

I guess, I watch so much football (soccer) and when a star striker is having an off game he may be substituted, its not a bad thing, just isn't his day!

[Art-Florida]

I have just GOT to get myself one of these crystal balls that allows you to see what WOULD HAVE happened in the past if so and so...

Amazon? Newegg? Maybe Wal-Mart.

Speculations are just like opinions, and we all know about those.

[FHRaven]

I WAS NOT ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO WAS TEARING BOLLER DOWN. I HAVE BEEN A SUPPORTER OF KYLE BOLLER SINCE BEFORE HE WAS DRAFTED.

If you believed the 100 (where ever you pulled that # from FH) people who told you that Mac was going to light up the sky and turn us into the #1 O in the league...well, I am sorry for you and all I can say is that you should have had more realistic expectations and maybe even have done some research on your own instead of believing a bunch of Monday QBs (myself included) on a message board. I certainly don't remember the coaching staff or FO saying any such thing.

Mobtown, I'm not accusing you of tearing anyone down. Sorry if that's the way it sounds. My points are still valid though as Stinger pointed out.

And thanks for the tip about not believing people. :eyes: I never said I did. But most of the fanbase sure did and most of the fanbase has stated how they thought Boller was the beginning and end of the offensive problems. If you can't admit that then you haven't been reading the boards, the newspaper or listening to the radio for the last 2 years. The coaching staff and players weren't exactly feint in their prasie for McNair either.

I don't recall ever saying McNair would make us the #1 offense in the league either. WE WERE TOLD THAT A NEW QB WOULD MAKE THE OLINE BETTER AND GET TDS RATHER THAN FGS. This has not been the case and it won't it cut it against the better teams in the league.

I've done plenty of "research" on football. My research here tells me this team has been a QB graveyard since Billick got here. It tells me that the Oline has been getting worse for years and the FO has been ineffective in improving it. It tells me that if you can't win in the trenches you probably aren't going to go far as a team.

FHRaven

[FHRaven]

On a side note, I just noticed how this board puts a link to the posts you quote in your post. Very nice! :thumbup:

FHRaven

[Art-Florida]

Our local Target store had one left. I talked my way into a demo. Guess what, if the 3rd grenadiers had all come down with the flu at Waterloo, we'd all be speaking french. Scary, huh?

I didn't buy it though. It dawned on me that speculations about the past are as useful as trying to guess what a womans weight was in 1988. Even if you come close, what good does it do you? It's mental masturbation.

[Mobtown]

I didn't buy it though. It dawned on me that speculations about the past are as useful as trying to guess what a womans weight was in 1988. Even if you come close, what good does it do you? It's mental masturbation.

You are kidding right?

So, we should not look to the past to try and predict the future? Seriously, where would we be if we followed that advice?

[GirlsKickButt]

CAREER

83.1 rating 195 yds/game 59.4% 1 TD per 25 att 1 int/38 att 1.12 TD/GM


Damn. Ozzie got RIPPED OFF BIGTIME!!!

$33M for THOSE NUMBERS???!!!

Don't expect McNair to be get better in this offensive offense. And don't worry about saving for playoff tickets either. Because once we start playing WINNING TEAMS, the "L"s will start piling up.

IT'S THE SYSTEM (AND THE OL) STUPID!!!

[crazyraven]

Damn. Ozzie got RIPPED OFF BIGTIME!!!

Can we at least bitch when we lose. Some of these posts are amazing... IMHO So far Mcnair has been worth the money especially at 3-0.


Don't expect McNair to be get better in this offensive offense. And don't worry about saving for playoff tickets either. Because once we start playing WINNING TEAMS, the "L"s will start piling up

Art, she has her crystal ball but I'm sure nothing will be said...so I'll say it.

[Heap86]

CAREER

83.1 rating 195 yds/game 59.4% 1 TD per 25 att 1 int/38 att 1.12 TD/GM


Damn. Ozzie got RIPPED OFF BIGTIME!!!

$33M for THOSE NUMBERS???!!!

Don't expect McNair to be get better in this offensive offense. And don't worry about saving for playoff tickets either. Because once we start playing WINNING TEAMS, the "L"s will start piling up.

IT'S THE SYSTEM (AND THE OL) STUPID!!!


Yep, Ozzie sure got ripped. I mean what has Steve McNair accomplished?

With Stats like that, he shouldn't have been envited to a Pro-Bowl or win an MVP award :grbac:


FYI, McNair's stats for these three games are pretty darned close to his career stats so everyone needs to get used to this. He doesn't play much better. But he plays well enough to win

Rack this post!!

Not only does play well enought to win, but he will get you the win and does not make the mistake to lose you the game. McNair has never been known to have mind blowing stats, he has been recognized as a warrior who will play with multiple injuries, and does not stumble under pressure.

[Dabruise]

Well, if certain people were to speak about certain other people in a way that the other people couldn't be identified by a third group of people then I guess... :D


Hrmf......And we were being good. :(

What if we talked in the third person? ;)

[Art-Florida]

Can we at least bitch when we lose. Some of these posts are amazing... IMHO So far Mcnair has been worth the money especially at 3-0.



Art, she has her crystal ball but I'm sure nothing will be said...so I'll say it.

In the interest of accuracy, Crazy, GKB was predicting what might happen in the future, as opposed to trying to predict what already didn't happen in the past. That thought is starting to be hard to follow, so I'll just say that...

Predicting what may happen someday is speculation with some chance of success.

Predicting what already has happened isn't speculation at all, it is killing time with make-believe.

And they claimed it wouldn't be said. :)

[crazyraven]

LOL thats a good spin... :laugh:

However I will say that both of your circumstance seem to have some sort of scrying, which is what a crystal allows one to do.

....anyway

I'll leave it at that and will except where your coming from

[Dabruise]

New word alert:

Scrying is the occult practice of using a medium, most commonly a reflective surface or translucent body, to aid perceived psychic abilities such as clairvoyance. The media often used to "see" are water, polished precious stones, crystal balls, or mirrors. Scrying has been used in many cultures as a means of seeing the past, present, or future; in this sense scrying constitutes a form of divination. Wikipedia

[Art-Florida]

New word alert:

Scrying is the occult practice of using a medium, most commonly a reflective surface or translucent body, to aid perceived psychic abilities such as clairvoyance. The media often used to "see" are water, polished precious stones, crystal balls, or mirrors. Scrying has been used in many cultures as a means of seeing the past, present, or future; in this sense scrying constitutes a form of divination. Wikipedia

Wasn't that an old Leslie Gore tune? 'Now it's Judy's turn to scry, Judy's turn to scry..."

BTW, which of you slipped one of those Back-to-the-future crystals to Tony Lombardi? I read the article also. THIS MADNESS HAS TO CEASE!

[GirlsKickButt]

Can we at least bitch when we lose. Some of these posts are amazing... IMHO So far Mcnair has been worth the money especially at 3-0.

Funny Crazy, you bitched about Boller everytime he won. It's amusing that you can't apply the same standards to ALL Ravens QBs.

Keep thinkin' that McNair is the answer for the offense. Newsflash, he's not. Just go back to your "ball watching" and keep those McNair Pimpin' Glasses on, ok?

I'm sure in a few weeks, after the Ravens actually play the cream of the NFL instead of the dregs, and lose because this pathetic offense, that you finally see the truth. Then again, maybe not.

[GirlsKickButt]

Yep, Ozzie sure got ripped. I mean what has Steve McNair accomplished?

With Stats like that, he shouldn't have been envited to a Pro-Bowl or win an MVP award :grbac:


Yeah, look at those MVP stats from McNair's first 3 games WITH THE RAVENS. He's a shoo-in for THIS YEARS NFL MVP!! :grbac:

[crazyraven]

Funny Crazy, you bitched about Boller everytime he won. It's amusing that you can't apply the same standards to ALL Ravens QBs.

Keep thinkin' that McNair is the answer for the offense. Newsflash, he's not. Just go back to your "ball watching" and keep those McNair Pimpin' Glasses on, ok?

I'm sure in a few weeks, after the Ravens actually play the cream of the NFL instead of the dregs, and lose because this pathetic offense, that you finally see the truth. Then again, maybe not.

Why do you care so much about what I thought about when boller was in? Why are you and so many others so hung up on this. Move along already with the Boller war garbage. For now its over, lay down your arms for god sakes. Mcnair is here. You should be happy we have him. :usa:

Here's something for you to chew on, If boller won 3 games in a row to start the season I would be very happy with him. As I would with any QB who could lead the team to such a marvelous starting record. I want this team to win and right now we are winning. You can't argue with success...that is unless you have an ax to grind.

I say you should stop with your chicken little philosophy and get with the rest of us and enjoy the wins. Also Why can't The Ravens be the cream of the crop? They have played well as a Team and this is something they havent done in a very long time. Don't be such a downer.

[highwater]

Here's something for you to chew on, If boller won 3 games in a row to start the season I would be very happy with him.

:rolling:

[crazyraven]

That's Real Clever and "civil", HW. Please play by the rules and stop the childish games. I am here to talk Ravens football with out being insulted. This is not YBR, and I intend to stick to the rules of each forum I join then again you have already been warned by the mods. If you have something to debate me about then by all means lets have at it. If you don't kindly but out.

[StingerNLG]

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f95/jarosh-gaf/jokerpopcorn.gif

Man this thread has gotten fun to watch. It's been hard to take it seriously the last page or so. But on the good side I finally found my sitting-back-eating-popcorn-watching-the-show picture.

But I HAVE to ask, I don't know why......


If boller won 3 games in a row to start the season I would be very happy with him.

I don't remember you being happy with Boller when he was 7-3 in 2004. Were you?

[crazyraven]

I don't remember you being happy with Boller when he was 7-3 in 2004. Were you?

Ok since you asked like a gentleman...Yes I was happy when he was 7-3 but lets not forget he didnt start the season 3-0 (thats a big difference), I will have to say I didn't have a negative thing to say for the first year or so. I actually was at the Jets game and was able to stick it in the face to the boys back home in NY.

If your looking at a point in time where I became discouraged and vocal about Boller, it was after the home Bengals game (2004). I could no longer keep a straight face when defending him. I remember defending Dilfer the same way but at least he won 7 straight regular season games and 4 playoffs games. McNair gets the same love and he gets a few free pass only because of who he is and what the team has accomplished so far.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f95/jarosh-gaf/jokerpopcorn.gif<---btw i love this

[Mista T]

he gets a few free pass only because of who he is and what the team has accomplished so far.

My compliments, Crazy! :thumbup: I believe that you are the first to admit that you are actually giving Mcnair a free pass.

All I had heard from others to date was: "it's the OL" , or "he's still learning the system", or (my favorite) "ignore the shitty performance, the weak arm, and the stats: it's the intangibles". :laugh:

:mrt:

[StingerNLG]

I got that picture from another forum. I've been dying to use it here. :)


If your looking at a point in time where I became discouraged and vocal about Boller, it was after the home Bengals game (2004). I could no longer keep a straight face when defending him.

And I'll never understood that for two reasons. Everyone praises McNair for going downfield and making Stover kick his leg off to win the game. In fact, the cameras didn't pick up Stover hopping 100 yards downfield to go retrieve his kicking leg from the field. And that's great because we won.

Yet, Baltimore is behind Cincinatti in the 4th quarter in much the same way, with the 2 minute warning coming up. Boller gets Stover in field goal range, and takes 4 minutes off the clock doing it. Stover then kicks what should have been the winning field goal with a simple 1:42 left in the game. Carson Palmer then drives on our defense 60 yards and they kick the winning FG, after taking a 8 yard sack on 1st down. Forget Will Demps for getting burned for 32 and 11 yards. And forget that 22 yard pass to Chad Johnson. Some people don't seem remember that drive. They just blame it on Boller.

So my two questions remain.

1) If the defense had stopped Cincinatti (and thereby we would have been in the playoffs), would that have affected your opinion? After all, if they stopped Cincy, then Boller would have on his previous drive gotten Stover in range to win the game, right?

2) If Stover misses his 52 yard field goal, who would you have blamed for the loss at Cleveland last week?

After those questions get answered, I'm out of this discussion as it is overly redundant and meaningless (not specifically with you Crazy, just in general).

[crazyraven]

So my two questions remain.

1) If the defense had stopped Cincinatti (and thereby we would have been in the playoffs), would that have affected your opinion? After all, if they stopped Cincy, then Boller would have on his previous drive gotten Stover in range to win the game, right?



During that season we got a lot out of the defense. They were winning games for the most part. That last FG by the ravens should have been a TD. It should have been a statement game for Boller, or as people have said in this very thread, the lights should have come on. That game was so important on so many levels but we let a win slip away at home against an up and coming team. Instead the offense with boller at the helm relied on the defense to hold the fort yet again. If that TD was made, the Game was over.

Now had the defense held Cincy--well that's just a hypothetical that clearly doesn't have anything to do with my opinion on Boller. Simply put, he really hadn't play well (except maybe the Jets game). It just got to the point were purple glasses just weren't working anymore or as Popeye would say, "That's all I can stands and I can't stands no more".




2) If Stover misses his 52 yard field goal, who would you have blamed for the loss at Cleveland last week

Stover made the FG. Mcnair drove the team down and put him in position (regardless of the length) to kick a winning FG. Stover has been solid for so many years but still he is a kicker and is suppose to make these types of pressure cooker kicks. Kickers are on the shortest leash so if they miss FGs they feel the heat.

[StingerNLG]

Those were two very excellent non-answers Crazy. :thumbup:

[Mista T]

How about a come from behind win, something he has done many times in his career (20+) in the 4th QTR.and people are bitching.

Well, that's one way of looking at it. :laugh:

On the other hand, had it not been for the mediocre QB play for 3/4ths of the game, trailing 3-14 after many passes in the dirt and over the heads or behind the receivers, there would have been no need for the dramatic comeback. Moreover, failing to complete either of the final two passes with a few seconds remaining placed all the burden on Stover, whose toe was more significant to the win than Mcnair's arm.


I'm sure in a few weeks, after the Ravens actually play the cream of the NFL instead of the dregs, and lose because this pathetic offense, that you finally see the truth.

GKB: the Nazis executed German citizens in WW II for "defeatism".:261695:

Hopefully, our Defense can keep bailing us out until McNair "learns the system". ;) It worked in 2000 with an approximately equally rated QB, and it can happen again today.:grbac:

:mrt:

[Greg]

That last FG by the ravens should have been a TD.
Really, he actually led two drives to FGs in that 4th quarter. The last 3 plays called by the OC were 3 runs up the gut on both drives. The philosophy of the coaches was, "Okay, let's kick the 3 and let our defense win this thing." That is not Boller's fault. He didn't throw a pick in the end zone or miss an easy pass for a TD, he got the team, TWICE, into FG position and our dominating defense collapsed SEVERAL times in that 4th quarter. He wasn't asked to get a TD.

When we needed the TD in New York he got it, when we needed the FG against Houston, he got it.

McNair is the better QB and option right now, but claiming Boller couldn't have done what McNair did against the Browns is a load of crap. He did it against the Texans.

[StingerNLG]

Really, he actually led two drives to FGs in that 4th quarter. The last 3 plays called by the OC were 3 runs up the gut on both drives. The philosophy of the coaches was, "Okay, let's kick the 3 and let our defense win this thing." That is not Boller's fault. He didn't throw a pick in the end zone or miss an easy pass for a TD, he got the team, TWICE, into FG position and our dominating defense collapsed SEVERAL times in that 4th quarter. He wasn't asked to get a TD.

Let's look at that last series in Cincy for a second:

1-10-CIN20 (2:40) J.White right tackle to CIN 14 for 6 yards (B.Simmons).

2-4-CIN14 (2:00) C.Taylor left tackle to CIN 17 for -3 yards (Lan.Moore, K.Hardy).

3-7-CIN17 (1:56) C.Taylor up the middle to CIN 24 for -7 yards.

PENALTY on BLT-C.Rabach, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at CIN 17 - No Play.

3-17-CIN27 (1:50) K.Boller pass incomplete to T.Taylor.

4-17-CIN27 (1:44) M.Stover 45 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-J.Maese, Holder-N.Murphy.

Run for -3, then run for -7 and on top of that a penalty, suprise suprise. 2nd and 4 trying to run the clock down became 3rd and 17 before anyone knew it. And yet they were in position for Stover to kick the go ahead field goal, which he did. But somehow it's Boller's fault they lost that game. It wasn't the defenses fault at all.

[crazyraven]

McNair is the better QB and option right now, but claiming Boller couldn't have done what McNair did against the Browns is a load of crap. He did it against the Texans.

I haven't said whether or not boller could do the same as Mcnair did but since you brought it up this is what I believe.

Last year on the road, after the so called "light" went on for boller, The ravens go into cleveland and with the game on the line boller throws a pick to end all hope of his progression. Thinking Boller can't do it is not a load of crap because he has never shown that he can but you know what is crap, this raw deal mcnair is getting from so called fans who think Mcnair is the better option but in the same breath say that Boller could do the same work. That is ludicrous and as you say CRAP.

[Mobtown]

On the other hand, had it not been for the mediocre QB play for 3/4ths of the game, trailing 3-14 after many passes in the dirt and over the heads or behind the receivers, there would have been no need for the dramatic comeback.


OR

Had the defense not given up 14 points in the second quarter and let Frye make them look like chumps then we would have won 3-0...

Using what ifs to make a point is silly. Only one thing actually DID happen so lets try to stick with reality.

Also, I will go on record (since it seems we are keeping score) and join Crazy as one who is willing to give Mac a few free passes because of who he is and what he has done.

[StingerNLG]

The ravens go into cleveland and with the game on the line boller throws a pick to end all hope of his progression.

??

(:25) (Shotgun) K.Boller pass to M.Clayton for 6 yards, TOUCHDOWN NULLIFIED by Penalty. PENALTY on BLT-J.Ogden, Ineligible Downfield Pass, 5 yards, enforced at CLV 6 - No Play.

Guess that didn't play a factor in that loss at all.

(12:54) (Field Goal formation) D.Zastudil Aborted. M.Katula FUMBLES at CLV 16, recovered by BLT-D.Zastudil at CLV 15. D.Zastudil to CLV 17 for -2 yards (L.Bodden). FUMBLES (L.Bodden), RECOVERED by CLV-J.Parker at CLV 17.

How come Boller didn't get charged with that? Had to be his fault.

(13:11) K.Boller pass to D.Mason to CLV 46 for 18 yards (D.McCutcheon).
PENALTY on BLT-O.Mughelli, Illegal Use of Hands, 10 yards, enforced at BLT 36 - No Play.

Had no bearing on the game.


But no, let's focus on Boller throwing an interception on 4th and 20, and ONLY on that. Because after all, he's the only one who made any real mistakes in the game. Nevermind we win that game without Ogden's penalty as well.

I will not give McNair a free pass. Because as someone who was touted as our savior, and who is supposed to be THAT MUCH better than Boller (which after 12 years, he better be), he should be able to walk in here and lay the smackdown on the opposing defenses. All that beating the blitz, all that no more 8 men in the box. All these touchdowns we're supposed to be scoring in the redzone instead of field goals.

When I start seeing those, then I'll stop bitching about the offense. In the meantime, I am just a bit nervous about tomorrow's game.

[crazyraven]

We lost that game in Cleveland Stinger and it was largely because of Boller--and I have to say its a far better example then the Texan game for a number of reasons.

Mobtown is 100% correct. You guys deal with too many IF's.

If boller did this then what.
If Mcnair screws up then what.
If the defense let us down then what.
If stover misses the fg then what.
If the WR caught a the ball then what.
If Ray Lewis doesn't have a DMVP year then what.
If the FO spent money on the OL instead of Mcnair then what

If you are going to wonder, wouldn't you wonder why the FO went after Mcnair and forced Boller to sit? Nick-pick or conjure up any kind of scenario you wish. The truth of the matter is when Boller was asked to get us a win he never did it when it counted. This is why we have Mcnair starting for us and there are no ifs and's or buts about it.

Anyway its Sunday Lets hope for a win.

and as always

GOD BLESS RAY LEWIS, STEVE MCNAIR AND DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE MONTH BART SCOTT :thumbup: