Mark my words......

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

all those who love to bash Kyle Boller and eager to run him out of town...When he leaves the Ravens and becomes a very good QB somewhere else, y'all will be saying we shoulda kept him!:nerd: I heard something today that made me ponder...If Terry Bradshaw were to enter the NFL today and played the same way he did when he first came into the NFL, he'd of never made it past his rookie year.The fans would never have given him a second chance...It also took Phil Simms a few years to really get it...Just saying that you are going to regret passing on this kid...:eyes:

[Art-Florida]

I could not agree more. Now stand by for a volley from the H crowd.

[festivus]

McNair is locked up for at least two more years. Boller is - contrary to what the "H crowd" says - good enough to go compete somwhere to be a starter. He will be a FA, and we are as we know from other threads, knee deep in youngsters trying to earn a spot as McNair's backup.

I hope when he leaves he is fabulously successful except when he plays the Ravens. But it doesn't make sense (a) for him to stay, and be relegated to backup when he should be competing for more, or (b) for the FO to keep him, and pay a backup starter money.

In a non-salary cap world I'd love to see him stay. But realistically, for the benefit of all parties involved - hating, injury cheering fans aside - I don't think he'll be here.

:2c:

[crazyraven]

McNair is locked up for at least two more years. Boller is - contrary to what the "H crowd" says - good enough to go compete somwhere to be a start

if you say so but that doesnt mean it is so.

You guys are preaching much the same way when redman was on the brink of being dismissed from the Ravens.

I just find it funny that some of you would love to see Boller play well on a rival team just to say you thought he could play somewhere else. The thing is he couldnt raise to a level of play on this team to solidify his position as th starter, why would he tread water somewhere else when he has absoultely no competition since he has been a raven. Now that we got some qbs in the stable it seems like a few are a little nervous.

We'll see.

[PurpleRulz]

If Boller is to become a success, he WILL have to leave here and I think he is anxious to get going from here. Would you want to play for a fanbase that cheers when you get injured? Even Drew Forrester admitted that Boller still carries that day with him. I can imagine him anxiously awaiting to give us the middle finger once he leaves....er...fumbles and bumbles his way out of town.

[ClericBlackDave]

If Boller is to become a success, he WILL have to leave here and I think he is anxious to get going from here. Would you want to play for a fanbase that cheers when you get injured? Even Drew Forrester admitted that Boller still carries that day with him. I can imagine him anxiously awaiting to give us the middle finger once he leaves....er...fumbles and bumbles his way out of town.


Honestly its quotes like this that bother me.


Why add on the "fumble and bumble"? What is so personal about this for Baltimore fans.


We already had Johnny Unitas. You get a player like that once a hundred years or so. So every quarterback we'll have after Johnny U is going to have trouble living up to what he could do.


McNair's not playing 2 more years in Baltimore. Call it a hunch. His body isn't strong enough, his arm almost died 3 times last year, but was saved by 1) being rested on the early bye week 2) being rested when Boller came in for relief and 3) against the Colts he wasn't saved actually. He sucked it up hard with his lame duck passes


In any case the sad part is is that we threw Boller to the wolves, toughed out the hard parts of his career with him, and are ready to dump him now that we've made the investment.


His Last 10 games . . . 16 TDs, maybe 3-4 Ints . . . explosive plays downfield . . . I can see the potential for him to go somewhere else and step up.


It'd be far better if management and the fanbase would let him step up here.

[PD101]

First off let me state that I don't know anymore than anyone else but here's a different point of view.
1) The Raven's drafted Troy Smith because he was the best available at that point. I doubt he was a big focus of the Ravens before the draft.
2) If they had gone into the draft looking for a future QB they would of moved up to get Quinn or someone else in the second round.
3) Strangely there has been very little coming from the Ravens (either officially or leaked ) about Boller this off season.
Now keeping in mind that the owner SB has stated the one thing that bugs him is to see good money investing in developing a player and than having him wind up using that time and effort on another team. My best guess is this, they bring in some QB's from the outside with the thought that, one they get lucky, or two they are developing a future back up. At the same time they are removing the expections from Boller taking him out of the bubble he has existed under since his arrival in Baltimore.

[RavensInBrazil]

I think the way that Boller stays here is if McNair gets injured for more than a couple of games and Boller plays at a very high level, especially near the end of the season. I personally think the kid has what it takes to take a team deep in the playoffs, but he won't get the opportunity to do it here if he stays behind McNair all the time

Should Boller not get any significant playing time this season, he'll want to leave, and I won't blame him one bit. The fans have been, in general, extremely ungrateful, because apparently they expected a new Johnny U after a couple of season. The truth is, it's very rare for players to come out of nowhere and perform stupendously (how many Dan Marinos are there?). It'll be a shame if Boller leaves down resentful, and if he does, I hope he has great success with another team, if only to teach Baltimore fans to be a little more patient and to really give someone a chance. I don't really consider his first couple of years here a 'chance', he had a mediocre offensive line, terrible receivers and a dreadful offensive coordinator

I hope McNair succeeds in his last few years of play, but should he not, I believe Boller can and will show us what he really has. Just look at his stats for the past games he's played

I also think it's going to be good for Boller to be out of the spotlight a little. Everyone will be talking about McNair and Smith and what the heck, maybe even Olson and Finnerty. But I think the one who's really going to stand out is Boller

[Greg]

You guys are preaching much the same way when redman was on the brink of being dismissed from the Ravens.
Not a good comparison, Redman was shot physically from a back injury and his once adequate arm was not strong enough to compensate for this.


I just find it funny that some of you would love to see Boller play well on a rival team just to say you thought he could play somewhere else.
You missed the part where he said "except when he plays the Ravens."


The thing is he couldnt raise to a level of play on this team to solidify his position as th starter, why would he tread water somewhere else when he has absoultely no competition since he has been a raven.
List the WRs he had and get back to me.
Travis Taylor
Marcus Robinson
Kevin Johnson

That is the best 3 until Mason came, and in his 10-11 games he has played with Mason on the team his numbers came up nicely. I would love to see him get a number of games with Mason and Clayton and Heap healthy.

The thing that kills him is his clumsiness, a lot of fans can't see past that. It only happens 1-2 times a game tops. Yes, it sucks and unless corrected he will never be an elite QB because of it but it isn't any worse than issues many other QBs have that aren't so obvious to fans.

[RavensNTerps]

If Boller is to become a success, he WILL have to leave here and I think he is anxious to get going from here. Would you want to play for a fanbase that cheers when you get injured? Even Drew Forrester admitted that Boller still carries that day with him. I can imagine him anxiously awaiting to give us the middle finger once he leaves....er...fumbles and bumbles his way out of town.

LOL you crack me up so much. You quote the media, guys like Drew Forrester (of all people) and act like its gospel. Like if Drew said it, by god, its gotta be true.

Nothing against Drew, but I have just as good an idea as he does about the psyche of Boller, I just don't have a radio show to talk about it to thousands of people.

[purplepoe]

Honestly its quotes like this that bother me.


Why add on the "fumble and bumble"? What is so personal about this for Baltimore fans.


We already had Johnny Unitas. You get a player like that once a hundred years or so. So every quarterback we'll have after Johnny U is going to have trouble living up to what he could do.


McNair's not playing 2 more years in Baltimore. Call it a hunch. His body isn't strong enough, his arm almost died 3 times last year, but was saved by 1) being rested on the early bye week 2) being rested when Boller came in for relief and 3) against the Colts he wasn't saved actually. He sucked it up hard with his lame duck passes


In any case the sad part is is that we threw Boller to the wolves, toughed out the hard parts of his career with him, and are ready to dump him now that we've made the investment.


His Last 10 games . . . 16 TDs, maybe 3-4 Ints . . . explosive plays downfield . . . I can see the potential for him to go somewhere else and step up.


It'd be far better if management and the fanbase would let him step up here.


I certainly didn't expect another Johnny U.

I also didn't expect the kind of play I saw from a 1st round pick.

I believe your hunches also led you to say that McNair wasn't coming and that Ogden probably was retiring. Along with it, you tried to make the point that this team would somehow perform at the same level from an OL standpoint if Ogden did indeed retire.

Pardon me if Im a bit skeptical about your hunches.

McNair's arm almost died 3 times last year huh? Why so personal when talking about McNair? His body can't take it? How exactly has Boller's body faired so far in his much shorter career? He's missed FAR more time over the last few seasons than McNair has.

We're ready to dump Boller because the investment was a bad one. He's a 1st round QB that is a backup at best. He will serve that role for the 2007 and unless something of epic proportions happens, he will be a F/A looking for another team.

The FO could've and still can offer him a contract extension at any time. The fact that they haven't speaks volumes. YOU may think he can "step it up" here but it's pretty obvious that FO doesn't.

Count me as one who's thankful about that.

PP

[festivus]

The FO could've and still can offer him a contract extension at any time. The fact that they haven't speaks volumes. YOU may think he can "step it up" here but it's pretty obvious that FO doesn't.

Mostly I agree with you, PP, but on this point I take issue a little bit.

It serves the Ravens better to have a 1st or 2d year player as a backup to McNair. Boller is a terrific backup, and may one day start somewhere else, but we don't need him here when we can be mentoring someone who is (a) younger and (b) still under contract. We have a glut of young qb's. No need to re-sign the backup, (and this is key, for me) whether you like him or not.

[highwater]

I don't really consider his first couple of years here a 'chance', he had a mediocre offensive line, terrible receivers and a dreadful offensive coordinator

Couldn't have said it better myself. When your number one WRs are guys like Travis Taylor and Kevin Johnson, you're in trouble as soon as you step on the field. In his limited playing time last year, Boller played well with an improved WR corps.

And Festivus, I usually agree with your takes on things, but LOL at the notion that we should be "mentoring someone who is younger." Did Boller just turn into an old man?

[festivus]

And Festivus, I usually agree with your takes on things, but LOL at the notion that we should be "mentoring someone who is younger." Did Boller just turn into an old man?

:laugh: :)

No, Highwater. He's not an old man but he'll be looking (hopefully, for his sake) to cash in a little, or at least to be somewhere he might be starting in '08. He's not old in human years, but he's getting there in contract years, if you know what I mean. Someone who is 'younger' that way would come cheaper and with lower expectations.

[jonboy79]

Boller is younger then Jon Beck.

[festivus]

Yes but Mormons live longer. ;)

Beck would have been a rookie, cheap and under contract for a few more years.

[purplepoe]

Mostly I agree with you, PP, but on this point I take issue a little bit.

It serves the Ravens better to have a 1st or 2d year player as a backup to McNair. Boller is a terrific backup, and may one day start somewhere else, but we don't need him here when we can be mentoring someone who is (a) younger and (b) still under contract. We have a glut of young qb's. No need to re-sign the backup, (and this is key, for me) whether you like him or not.

Festivus. Im not sure if you misread my post of I worded it wrong. My point was the writing is on the wall and that in all likelihood this will be Boller's last season as a Raven.

I think having Boller here as a backup this season is a must.

I've stated my feelings on him as a starter and/or our future. But for this year and with the QB situation as it stands now, Boller is our best option as a backup to McNair. He's in the last year of his contract and is most likely gone once his contract runs out this time next year.

What is this "glut" of QBs you talk about?

Drew Olson is over in NFL and hasn't taken an NFL snap. Troy Smith was a end of the 5th round pick who has also never taken an NFL snap.

This team went 13-3 last year and has one more year left with some of the vets. The tandem of McNair/Boller gives us the best chance to win than any other tandem we can throw out there as of now.

PP

[GreenWave52]

I have sooo many problems with this thread I'm not sure where to begin. I guess I'll go with the fact that it shouldn't even be here. There is a forum that is dedicated to QB talk.

It kills me that Kyle is still such a lightening rod. He fractioned the Ravens on-line community possibly permanantly. The Boller Wars at YBR was a big reason that many of us came here. And the fact is that people get still get defensive whenever he is brought up or if someone criticizes him like for example how Dave jumped on PR/SB when he made the "fumbles and bumbles" crack.

And to be fair it is an honest criticism- Kyle does fall down and fumble more than other QBs on average. Also, where is the outrage when someone calls Orlando Brown "cyclops", Gary Baxter and now Samari Rolle "toast", Grbac "the Grbacle", TT and PJ "stonehands", or Moore a pussy. There isn't any because it is pretty much all true. The fact that none of these nicknames got banned but Dawson's Creek, Ebola, and whatever other nonesense WSO spewed out got eliminated over at YBR shows how sensitive people get when criticizing Kyle.

It is clear that Kyle has improved a little. He started stepping up into the pocket occasionally. However, the fact that that is considered a big and near groundbreaking improvement in a guys 4th year is also pretty telling.

I also get the impression that the staunchest of Boller's supporters have never really embraced McNair. You support McNair because you are good fans and want what is best for the team. But the speed at which people turned on Steve when Kyle played well this past season or at times when McNairs arm looked dead was astonishing. We want from 6-10 to 13-3 and Steve McNair is a huge part of that.

I like Kyle as a person and I do like all you guys as posters, even if you are holding on to the dream too long. Kyle held this team back when he was starting and he is incredibly shaky on the road. McNair's biggest imact on our record was playing a steady game on the road. I can't imagine how bad Kyle would be in the pressure packed playoffs. If you had to bet your life on Kyle raising his game for the playoffs, making plays and eliminating mistakes would you? Do you think he could out duel Brady in Foxborough? I wouldn't and I don't.

Ultimately, Kyle Boller is a tease. A guy with all the physical abilities in the world, but someone who it just doesn't click for, for whatever reason. Fans always get sucked in by tantalizers (Bill Simmons coined this term). Then after years and a million arguments later those supporters still don't get why he didn't put it all together. The simple, but frustrating answer is it just doesn't happen for some people. I said it in another thread, but Kyle's best chance of success is to stay here since he knows this system, but I just don't think that is going to happen for him. I think he will probably bounce around on a couple of teams like Harrington or Pat Ramsey and be out of the league before he is 30.

If god forbid McNair gets hurt and Kyle has to come in I hope he leads us all the way to a victory in AZ. I'll root for him because he is our QB. But the dream of him being our franchise guy is dead. It's best if we just let it go.

[purplepoe]

I have sooo many problems with this thread I'm not sure where to begin. I guess I'll go with the fact that it shouldn't even be here. There is a forum that is dedicated to QB talk.

It kills me that Kyle is still such a lightening rod. He fractioned the Ravens on-line community possibly permanantly. The Boller Wars at YBR was a big reason that many of us came here. And the fact is that people get still get defensive whenever he is brought up or if someone criticizes him like for example how Dave jumped on PR/SB when he made the "fumbles and bumbles" crack.

And to be fair it is an honest criticism- Kyle does fall down and fumble more than other QBs on average. Also, where is the outrage when someone calls Orlando Brown "cyclops", Gary Baxter and now Samari Rolle "toast", Grbac "the Grbacle", TT and PJ "stonehands", or Moore a pussy. There isn't any because it is pretty much all true. The fact that none of these nicknames got banned but Dawson's Creek, Ebola, and whatever other nonesense WSO spewed out got eliminated over at YBR shows how sensitive people get when criticizing Kyle.

It is clear that Kyle has improved a little. He started stepping up into the pocket occasionally. However, the fact that that is considered a big and near groundbreaking improvement in a guys 4th year is also pretty telling.

I also get the impression that the staunchest of Boller's supporters have never really embraced McNair. You support McNair because you are good fans and want what is best for the team. But the speed at which people turned on Steve when Kyle played well this past season or at times when McNairs arm looked dead was astonishing. We want from 6-10 to 13-3 and Steve McNair is a huge part of that.

I like Kyle as a person and I do like all you guys as posters, even if you are holding on to the dream too long. Kyle held this team back when he was starting and he is incredibly shaky on the road. McNair's biggest imact on our record was playing a steady game on the road. I can't imagine how bad Kyle would be in the pressure packed playoffs. If you had to bet your life on Kyle raising his game for the playoffs, making plays and eliminating mistakes would you? Do you think he could out duel Brady in Foxborough? I wouldn't and I don't.

Ultimately, Kyle Boller is a tease. A guy with all the physical abilities in the world, but someone who it just doesn't click for, for whatever reason. Fans always get sucked in by tantalizers (Bill Simmons coined this term). Then after years and a million arguments later those supporters still don't get why he didn't put it all together. The simple, but frustrating answer is it just doesn't happen for some people. I said it in another thread, but Kyle's best chance of success is to stay here since he knows this system, but I just don't think that is going to happen for him. I think he will probably bounce around on a couple of teams like Harrington or Pat Ramsey and be out of the league before he is 30.

If god forbid McNair gets hurt and Kyle has to come in I hope he leads us all the way to a victory in AZ. I'll root for him because he is our QB. But the dream of him being our franchise guy is dead. It's best if we just let it go.


Green, the above words are a thing of beauty.

And it's the offseason, so a thread like this probably will stay here because the board traffic is pretty slow these days.

PP

[highwater]

It kills me that Kyle is still such a lightening rod. He fractioned the Ravens on-line community possibly permanantly.

GreenWave52, I usually find myself in agreement with you (didn't I just say this about festivus?), but I don't think Boller "fractioned the Ravens on-line community," I think we did that to ourselves. This topic has been beaten to death so I won't repeat the details and theories, but for whatever reason, there are Ravens fans who either like Boller (or are willing to at least give him a chance) and fans who detest him. So yes, you can accurately call him a lightening rod, but is his fault or ours? I don't mean you or me specifically, but the whole on-line Ravens fans groups.

I agree that this will likely be Boller's last season as a Raven, but I think it's too bad, because he really seemed to be improving. Check the numbers.

I also get the impression that the staunchest of Boller's supporters have never really embraced McNair.

This is a myth, IMHO -- I like Boller but was thrilled when we landed McNair. This is not an either/or sitiuation. There's no law against liking and supporting both of your QBs.

[festivus]

Festivus. Im not sure if you misread my post of I worded it wrong.
A chain of misunderstandings, perhaps?

All I was saying is, we don't have to agree Boller is a bust as a pro quarterback to agree this is his last year as a Raven. Doesn't make sense for him to stay, doesn't make sense for us to extend him when we have McNair around for a couple more years.
That's all. Like I said, we basically agree.:toast:

[purplepoe]

A chain of misunderstandings, perhaps?

All I was saying is, we don't have to agree Boller is a bust as a pro quarterback to agree this is his last year as a Raven. Doesn't make sense for him to stay, doesn't make sense for us to extend him when we have McNair around for a couple more years.
That's all. Like I said, we basically agree.:toast:

Ahh, I gotcha.

PP

[crazyraven]

I don't think Boller "fractioned the Ravens on-line community," I think we did that to ourselves. This topic has been beaten to death so I won't repeat the details and theories, but for whatever reason, there are Ravens fans who either like Boller (or are willing to at least give him a chance) and fans who detest him.

No Boller did divide this community. This site alone is proof of that. I have many enemies on this board and other for the mere fact that I call as I see it with Boller. HW Look no further than our online relationship. I don't know you from adam but because of these Boller wars we have never had a decent rapport with one another. EVER! And thats mainly because you dont except my views about boller--regardless if they are right or not.

Anyway PP was right when he said Green last post was "a thing of beauty". Good job GW.

[Mikerobe]

Boller was thrown to the wolves,but still has a lot of upside. McNair has proved he can't win when it counts most, and has no more upside. Smith will not be the answer, at least if we don't want a repeat of what Kyle was subjected to. So where are we? I'd say back to square one.

[Ravens0587]

Just speaking for myself here, but I don't dislike CrazyRavens because of his football opinions, rather the ice on his car thread

[ClericBlackDave]

McNair has proved he can't win when it counts most, and has no more upside.


Honestly, I think this is what bothered me about McNair. Whether it was as a Titan or a Ravens, I feel as though he is too often willing to throw short of the goal, whether is a 1st down or a touchdown.


I can't stand seeing an offense not take its chances early on to give the defense a lead.


The don't-lose offense worked when Jamal was good; and maybe it'll work again now with McGahee


But when it came down to the passing game carrying us last year, it couldn't. Either the playcalling was weak, or McNair's arm looked dead, or his decision making was always throw 2-3 yards short of the 1st down or TD. Its frustrating.


Add to that that if we hadn't signed him maybe we could have kept Pashos or AD, and that makes me question the signing.


Really the argument comes down to whether you think the 13-3 record was more McNair or the amazing effort we got from the #1 defense in teh league. I'll take the latter over the former.


Boller got the short end of the stick. Starting with bad o-lines, poor WRs, and years where Heap went down, Jamal went down / in jail, years when the defense underachieved because of a weak d-line and injuries to marquee players like Reed, Ray Lew, Boulware, etc.


All QBs deal with scenarios that aren't ideal; but Boller definitely got the short end of the stick.


Give him even just 4 more games to start with the Mason-Clayton-DWill-Heap combo and he'll produce; his last 10 starts show he can. Just open up the playbook.


McNair has 1-2 more years before he retires a Tennessee Titan. I can't hop on that bandwagon, but if he starts for the Ravens, I'll support him.


I was rocking a McNair away jersey at M&T for the home Loss to the Colts. However, haven't worn it since.

[crazyraven]

Just speaking for myself here, but I don't dislike CrazyRavens because of his football opinions, rather the ice on his car thread

Actually last summer you had to be warned by one of the Mods about your temperament towards me and it was all because of my opinions on Boller. Nice try with the ice though it was amusing. You wouldnt believe how many supporting PM's I received about the ice. However those who didn't like it took it out on my reputation points. What a Bunch of fags.

http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/photo/images/images-101-150/photo108p.jpg

[ladyraven127]

"I guess I'll go with the fact that it shouldn't even be here. There is a forum that is dedicated to QB talk."

On this I agree.

Crazy . . . . stop calling people names.

:crazy:

[sailorsam]

1) The Raven's drafted Troy Smith because he was the best available at that point. I doubt he was a big focus of the Ravens before the draft.
2) If they had gone into the draft looking for a future QB they would of moved up to get Quinn or someone else in the second round.


the Ravens DID make an effort to trade up for Quinn but didn't want to give up next year's 1st round pick (they gave up a 1st to pick KBol, as I remember).

there's a huge opportunity for any of these guys (Olson, Smith, Finnerty) to get an NFL job here.
and I agree, given McNair's past (and age), he'll miss some time this year and give KBol one more shot to be the Ravens #1 qb.

I agree he's a tease; makes just enough plays to get your hope up, then falls down on 3rd and 8. I really think he's just a late bloomer and will settle down (like Vinny T) and be a Real Quarterback before it's over with.



*I'm not from Maryland, I'm from the Eastern Shore.*

[ClericBlackDave]

the Ravens DID make an effort to trade up for Quinn but didn't want to give up next year's 1st round pick (they gave up a 1st to pick KBol, as I remember).

I dont agree with that. Ozzie schooled Phil Savage into giving up more than he wanted to for Quinn. Perhaps a little revenge for the Ngata extortion. But how are you going to get Quinn there w/o giving up a 1st round pick next year? It was posturing plain and simple.


there's a huge opportunity for any of these guys (Olson, Smith, Finnerty) to get an NFL job here. and I agree, given McNair's past (and age), he'll miss some time this year and give KBol one more shot to be the Ravens #1 qb.

I agree with that. I dont even think McNair goes past this year unless he makes a deep run into the playoffs. And honestly, I dont expect that unless he shows more killer instinct in the passing game this year, AND his arm comes back alive.


I agree he's a tease; makes just enough plays to get your hope up, then falls down on 3rd and 8. I really think he's just a late bloomer and will settle down (like Vinny T) and be a Real Quarterback before it's over with.


Partial agreement. He's not really a tease though, he's a late bloomer. I don't know what about his last 10 starts was a tease; he was actually rather consistent in producing more TDs than mistakes, which is all this team needs to succeed.



Overall, I think Boller will have a fine NFL career, and I personally hope its in Baltimore, as we will NEVER get a pick high enough to get a true talented starter. Troy Smith was good value at that pick, but at best will be another Mike Vick type who's mobility and style is more of a long term hindrance than a short term benefit IMHO


I dont think McNair is here next year to tell you the truth. Not because of performance, but because of his contract, his age, and health. And, because of the age of the team.

[festivus]

I dont agree with that. Ozzie schooled Phil Savage into giving up more than he wanted to for Quinn. Perhaps a little revenge for the Ngata extortion. But how are you going to get Quinn there w/o giving up a 1st round pick next year? It was posturing plain and simple.

Last year Ozzie thought there was a risk Phil would trade out to someone else who would take Ngata. The 4th rounder was a modest investment to make sure we got our guy. Others have claimed we were ripped off, too, and I think you & they may be over-thinking an otherwise ordinary transaction.

If we could have swapped up 9 or 10 spots in exchange for next year's 2d rounder to get Brady Quinn, I wouldn't have had a problem with that.* If the offer was something in that ballpark, why shouldn't Ozzie have made it? What would make that "posturing plain and simple"?

* - Until I saw the penis-holding photo, thoughtfully linked on one of these threads, I think one of the ones about Troy Smith. Now I'm traumatized.

[Mobtown]

Honestly, I think this is what bothered me about McNair. Whether it was as a Titan or a Ravens, I feel as though he is too often willing to throw short of the goal, whether is a 1st down or a touchdown.


I can't stand seeing an offense not take its chances early on to give the defense a lead.


The don't-lose offense worked when Jamal was good; and maybe it'll work again now with McGahee


But when it came down to the passing game carrying us last year, it couldn't. Either the playcalling was weak, or McNair's arm looked dead, or his decision making was always throw 2-3 yards short of the 1st down or TD. Its frustrating.


Add to that that if we hadn't signed him maybe we could have kept Pashos or AD, and that makes me question the signing.


Really the argument comes down to whether you think the 13-3 record was more McNair or the amazing effort we got from the #1 defense in teh league. I'll take the latter over the former.


Boller got the short end of the stick. Starting with bad o-lines, poor WRs, and years where Heap went down, Jamal went down / in jail, years when the defense underachieved because of a weak d-line and injuries to marquee players like Reed, Ray Lew, Boulware, etc.


All QBs deal with scenarios that aren't ideal; but Boller definitely got the short end of the stick.


Give him even just 4 more games to start with the Mason-Clayton-DWill-Heap combo and he'll produce; his last 10 starts show he can. Just open up the playbook.


McNair has 1-2 more years before he retires a Tennessee Titan. I can't hop on that bandwagon, but if he starts for the Ravens, I'll support him.


I was rocking a McNair away jersey at M&T for the home Loss to the Colts. However, haven't worn it since.



Too much of the success or failure of this team is placed on the QB, be it Boller or McNair or Wright or Smith or whoever.

Whether we as fans choose to recognize it or not, there are perhaps dozens of other players and coaches who ultimately contibute to the outcome of a season.

I often wonder if ANY quarterback will ever get a fair shake in this town.

[ClericBlackDave]

If we could have swapped up 9 or 10 spots in exchange for next year's 2d rounder to get Brady Quinn, I wouldn't have had a problem with that.* If the offer was something in that ballpark, why shouldn't Ozzie have made it? What would make that "posturing plain and simple"?


Its posturing because a 2nd rounder this year or next year wouldn't equal the value of moving up 9 or 10 picks, and we all know Ozzie wouldn't give up a 1st. Our 2nd rounder this year was so late it was like an early third


So why negotiate? To make sure Phil gives up his 1st to move up and get Quinn. Plain and simple. A 2nd rounder was never going to cut it, and we were never going to give up another 1st.


And we were on the phone with Quinn, NOT the cowboys. Posturing, my friend.


If I had to have Quinn is the 1st or second OR Smith in the 5th I would take Smith every time. And in both cases, I don't know what there exact role with the team would / will be in '07

[festivus]

So you say. It looks like overthinking, to me, not that you're the only one.

[ClericBlackDave]

Actually, I messed up reading the chart. Looking at the draft value chart if we had traded away our 1st rounder and second rounder, that'd work . . .


So maybe we'd have traded our 2nd for him . . . however, the Cowboys got much better value with the Browns trade than trading w/us.


Guess I gotta admit that I was at least half wrong

[purplepoe]

Dave

You're nothing if not persistent.

Anything to believe that Ozzie wasn't interested in Quinn, right?

I mean, it couldn't be that the Ravens know that Boller isn't in their plans and that a guy was falling in the draft that they liked.

Nah, it was Ozzie "schooling" Phil Savage. Gimme a break.

And it's obvious that you've never embraced McNair. What, with your constant whining about him really a Titan and him going back to Tennessee to retire a Titan.

Who cares if we would've kept AD or Pashos this season if we hadn't signed McNair. What makes you think Boller would've all of sudden won more road games in one season then he had combined in his career.

This whole thing that Boller would've done the same as McNair has gone over the ridiculous point.

Please explain how McNair's arm "died 3 times last year". You love to point out the ONE (and only) thing Boller has over McNair. And that's arm strength. And it means nothing when you have zero pocket presence and just about zero poise. I sat and watched McNair hit Clayton streaking down the field in KC. The pass to Clayton in Pitt was a freakin laser on target. But yea, because Boller can throw the ball farther, he's a better option.

There are many successful QBs both current and retired that have won huge games without having monster arms.

The Boller experiment is all but over. You don't bring in an over 30 QB and sign him to a big contract if Boller is in your future plans. You just don't. They could've signed a vet backup this time last year but opted not to. Ozzie and Co. haven't offered Boller any sort of contract. Why do you think that is? You would think they would've offered a 2 or 3 year extension by now, don't you?

Boller as a backup to McNair right now is certainly our best option. I certainly don't think Troy Smith will offer us anything more than what Boller can.

It really comes down to this. I cannot for the life of me see how anyone can say that they think Boller is gonna have a fine career after the play we've seen from him.

PP

[Greg]

In the 20s Quinn was a great value pick so Ozzie was interested. We had a deal with KC right behind Dallas. We might have had a deal with Dallas as well. Forget the value of our picks against either the Cowboys' or Chiefs' pick, we couldn't possibly top the value of C-choke's high rounders. Our first rounder is barely worth more than their second. That is where the value is.


All I was saying is, we don't have to agree Boller is a bust as a pro quarterback to agree this is his last year as a Raven. Doesn't make sense for him to stay, doesn't make sense for us to extend him when we have McNair around for a couple more years.
It makes a lot of sense if McNair is retiring at the end of this year. Even if he stays through 2008, that is probably the end of the road. The team will go through a rebuilding phase in 2008 though so I won't be surprised to see McNair retire. This is his, JO's and possibly a few other guys (Ray?) last hurrah at a SB run.

If Boller plays 3-4 games and looks good I can see us giving him a deal with a modest bonus, essentially a 1-2 year deal with options for us that give him a nice bonus if he sticks. I just don't see him being such a hot commodity that a modest deal won't keep him here and given McNair's age and the fact that we have almost nothing invested in somebody else I can definitely seeing him coming back.

If one of the young guys really looks good in pre-season and we are definitely rebuilding in 2008 I can see Ozzie rolling the dice and letting Boller go.

But in all reality, given that we have no real investment in anybody else I see Boller staying as fairly likely.


I mean, it couldn't be that the Ravens know that Boller isn't in their plans and that a guy was falling in the draft that they liked.
I think they liked Quinn's value there and they liked the idea of shoring up the spot and giving our future at the position much better security (likelihood that we had a guy in house between Boller or Quinn) but if we REALLY, REALLY wanted Quinn and/or were definite Boller was gone we would have gotten that deal done.

I don't think it was done to school Savage, the calls were because it was a position where the future is uncertain and there was a value in picking him there. That being said I see it as Ozzie not thinking the cubard was so bare (Boller) that he HAD to do something. I think you both are reading it wrong. Quinn had good value at that pick and Boller isn't a sure thing. If Boller was definitely gone I think we make the move. But I also think Ozzie had interest in Quinn there to give him more comfort on the future.

[festivus]

Outstanding analysis, Sir Greg. I yield & would like now to discuss something other than quarterbacks.

[purplepoe]

In the 20s Quinn was a great value pick so Ozzie was interested. We had a deal with KC right behind Dallas. We might have had a deal with Dallas as well. Forget the value of our picks against either the Cowboys' or Chiefs' pick, we couldn't possibly top the value of C-choke's high rounders. Our first rounder is barely worth more than their second. That is where the value is.


It makes a lot of sense if McNair is retiring at the end of this year. Even if he stays through 2008, that is probably the end of the road. The team will go through a rebuilding phase in 2008 though so I won't be surprised to see McNair retire. This is his, JO's and possibly a few other guys (Ray?) last hurrah at a SB run.

If Boller plays 3-4 games and looks good I can see us giving him a deal with a modest bonus, essentially a 1-2 year deal with options for us that give him a nice bonus if he sticks. I just don't see him being such a hot commodity that a modest deal won't keep him here and given McNair's age and the fact that we have almost nothing invested in somebody else I can definitely seeing him coming back.

If one of the young guys really looks good in pre-season and we are definitely rebuilding in 2008 I can see Ozzie rolling the dice and letting Boller go.

But in all reality, given that we have no real investment in anybody else I see Boller staying as fairly likely.


I think they liked Quinn's value there and they liked the idea of shoring up the spot and giving our future at the position much better security (likelihood that we had a guy in house between Boller or Quinn) but if we REALLY, REALLY wanted Quinn and/or were definite Boller was gone we would have gotten that deal done.

I don't think it was done to school Savage, the calls were because it was a position where the future is uncertain and there was a value in picking him there. That being said I see it as Ozzie not thinking the cubard was so bare (Boller) that he HAD to do something. I think you both are reading it wrong. Quinn had good value at that pick and Boller isn't a sure thing. If Boller was definitely gone I think we make the move. But I also think Ozzie had interest in Quinn there to give him more comfort on the future.

I see your point Greg.

But I also don't think we had the ammunition to get a deal done unless we REALLY mortgaged the future and that wasn't gonna happen. That, at least to me, is why we didn't get Quinn.

My point is that the fact that they were interested shows that they don't believe Boller is the future at QB for this team. Boller is still very young and should be the future but I think that shipped has sailed. Hey, I could be completely wrong. The only scenario I see where he's a Raven next year is him starting at least 8 games this season and showing HUGE improvement. Call me a pessimist if you will, but I certainly don't see that happening.

Let's face it, McNair has at MOST, 2 years left. That leaves Boller as the only QB with any NFL experience. Yet the FO hasn't thrown any sort of offer his way.

Why not throw that short term deal with a modest bonus out right now? IMO, it's because they are ready to cut ties at the end of the year and move in a new direction.

This team will be alot different this time next season. However, with the young talent we've drafted and are developing along with the addition of McGahee, we'll be more in the mode of "transitioning" than "rebuilding".

PP

[ClericBlackDave]

PP,

I'm assuming you missed the post where I said I read my draft pick value chart wrong and admitted I was wrong.


That said, Greg's analysis is probably the most on point I've read so far. Except I wouldn't say we had a deal with Dallas done. KC, maybe, that makes a lot of sense.


In any case, we'll see what happens with McNair next year. Our o-line could either be much improved or regress from last year. And we're one injury away from being particularly thin at tackle, despite our now impressive depth in the interior of the line.


In terms of the Ravens not offering Boller a contract yet . . . that only makes sense.


He's far from a sure thing. And it makes the most sense to keep your options open to draft players (Quinn, etc) or sign FA's. Shit, the Ravens have just now said they're making an effort to resign Suggs, and he's a probowler at this position.


Besides, what better than a contract year and probably a few chances to relieve McNair to motivate Boller's level of play. We saw how he ended off 2005 being on the hot seat a bit.


But you're right, my gut feeling is that ship has sailed. But you know me, I dont want it to. Once Boller leaves I think we're in QB purgatory for another 5-10 years.

[jonboy79]

I see your point Greg.

But I also don't think we had the ammunition to get a deal done unless we REALLY mortgaged the future and that wasn't gonna happen. That, at least to me, is why we didn't get Quinn.
PP

I gotta agree. I believe we offerred #29 + #61... but that wasn't nearly enough. #29 and next years first was not more then CLE gave... It may have taken THREE firsts from us, or #29, #61 AND next years first. That's not close to worth it, you wait that storm out, especially thinking that one of Stanton, Beck or Kolb would make it to #61... I believe that was the plan once Quinn became unavailable. It is obvious that Edwards was never an option in the Raven's war room. I think Troy ended up being the type of pick where they were sick of skipping past him to fill a need, so they gave in and took him for GREAT value.
The end is all but here for Boller. I agree that if he starts half a dozen regular season games and plays well, that he has a chance for an extension, but a playoff win would secure it. In all likley-hood he will go somewhere to backup an older star, or a rookie. Troy smith could indeed be our backup, as could a Griese type that shakes loose.

[purplepoe]

PP,

I'm assuming you missed the post where I said I read my draft pick value chart wrong and admitted I was wrong.


That said, Greg's analysis is probably the most on point I've read so far. Except I wouldn't say we had a deal with Dallas done. KC, maybe, that makes a lot of sense.


In any case, we'll see what happens with McNair next year. Our o-line could either be much improved or regress from last year. And we're one injury away from being particularly thin at tackle, despite our now impressive depth in the interior of the line.


In terms of the Ravens not offering Boller a contract yet . . . that only makes sense.


He's far from a sure thing. And it makes the most sense to keep your options open to draft players (Quinn, etc) or sign FA's. Shit, the Ravens have just now said they're making an effort to resign Suggs, and he's a probowler at this position.


Besides, what better than a contract year and probably a few chances to relieve McNair to motivate Boller's level of play. We saw how he ended off 2005 being on the hot seat a bit.


But you're right, my gut feeling is that ship has sailed. But you know me, I dont want it to. Once Boller leaves I think we're in QB purgatory for another 5-10 years.


Suggs and Boller are apples and oranges. Suggs is gonna command a HUGE deal here or somewhere else. And the Ravens are in negotiations right now.

They aren't with Boller.

Boller's level of play has never been consistent. You can point to the 2 games at the end of 05 but the last game was horrendous. We've gone over this before and it's like beating a dead horse now.

You think Boller can still be something in this league. I don't.

However, I do want him here as our backup this season because he is our best option as of now.

Things could change, but I doubt it.

PP

[Greg]

They haven't signed Boller because they don't have to. He isn't a hot commodity so no need to lock him down. Ozzie isn't going to make any commitment he doesn't have to.

If Boller plays 3-4 games and looks good I see him coming back. No way is 8 needed given the last 8 games. Take a look at his last 8 games, add another 3-4 good performances and you have 3/4 of a very good season. At that point he becomes valuable. I think there's something to be said about how he practices and his intangibles as well. If the rest of the team has no faith in him and he practices weak he could be gone regardless of what we see (barring flat out barn-burner performances in a handfull of games). And to some degree the reverse might be true, solid practices and a team that has faith with a handfull of competent performances might bring him back.

If he were definitely gone there is NO WAY this team waits until the 5th round for value at the position given they have nothing of but hope available in 2-3 years. If we got a guy on the first day I might buy in, but throwing a low rounder at a guy on a wing and a prayer ... eh, I just don't buy Boller being gone. Not until we have some reason to believe we have at least one QB who has a shot to be a starter in 3 years. We have nobody else on the roster you can say has a realistic shot. Smith? It's a flyer pick. Who knows, maybe you strike gold, roll 40 passes in a row, pick a trifecta and hit the Lotto and the kid is the next Tom Brady. But you don't leave that as your only option in 2-3 years. I ain't buying it.

[ClericBlackDave]

Suggs and Boller are apples and oranges.


Read my original post. I agree, thats exactly what I was saying. This franchise takes its time to resign players, even players who play at probowl levels.

Why would Boller, who's a ?, be ahead on the resign list?

We're on the same page here.


We have until next years free agency period to see what happens with our QB position. Until then, I think its clear Boller is the backup to McNair, and Smith is someone who was a good value in the 5th round who COULD be a starter if he overcomes a few things.

[purplepoe]

They haven't signed Boller because they don't have to. He isn't a hot commodity so no need to lock him down. Ozzie isn't going to make any commitment he doesn't have to.

If Boller plays 3-4 games and looks good I see him coming back. No way is 8 needed given the last 8 games. Take a look at his last 8 games, add another 3-4 good performances and you have 3/4 of a very good season. At that point he becomes valuable. I think there's something to be said about how he practices and his intangibles as well. If the rest of the team has no faith in him and he practices weak he could be gone regardless of what we see (barring flat out barn-burner performances in a handfull of games). And to some degree the reverse might be true, solid practices and a team that has faith with a handfull of competent performances might bring him back.

If he were definitely gone there is NO WAY this team waits until the 5th round for value at the position given they have nothing of but hope available in 2-3 years. If we got a guy on the first day I might buy in, but throwing a low rounder at a guy on a wing and a prayer ... eh, I just don't buy Boller being gone. Not until we have some reason to believe we have at least one QB who has a shot to be a starter in 3 years. We have nobody else on the roster you can say has a realistic shot. Smith? It's a flyer pick. Who knows, maybe you strike gold, roll 40 passes in a row, pick a trifecta and hit the Lotto and the kid is the next Tom Brady. But you don't leave that as your only option in 2-3 years. I ain't buying it.

Believe me, Im not sold on Smith at all. He's worth the risk where we got him but anything we get out of him in the future (I don't expect anything this season) is a bonus.

As far as the QB situation next season. There are a ton of things that can happen between now and then. McNair could retire or he could be back. Smith could turn into a viable heir apparent or fall completely on his face. We could draft a guy high next year to be groomed under McNair if he decides to stick around.

I just honestly think that the Ravens aren't close to being sold on Boller and that is a big reason why no contract offer has been made. Could they sign him to a short term deal after next season? Sure, they could. I just don't see it happening. He'll be a F/A next year and might just want to get the hell outta here. I can't say I'd blame him.

Who knows what kind of F/A QBs will be out there as well.

All in all, we could have a very different looking QB situation a year from now.

I just hope we're satisified with the way the 07 season turned out.

PP

[Greg]

We could draft a guy high next year to be groomed under McNair if he decides to stick around.
And I just don't see us going into 2008 with a draft pick and McNair, who will definitely be ready to retire. Boller might want to move on but I doubt the Ravens will just shake his hand and let him go without some other veteran in place besides McNair. He might go, but we will make some kind of overture; again, assuming we don't have another veteran in house.

Again, I think if they were done with Boller we would have seen a first day pick this year. The call on Boller has to be made before we have a chance to add another QB. We have to decide before FA next year. I just don't see that decision having been made and absolutely nothing long term worked out.

[highwater]

We have to decide before FA next year. I just don't see that decision having been made and absolutely nothing long term worked out.

That's really the crux of this issue -- I find it hard to believe that this early, the FO has decided Boller is toast. Maybe he will be, but I don't think it's a done deal yet. There are several variables involved, but the two big ones are 1) how much playing time Boller gets this year, and 2) how he plays (obviously).

Of course, Boller will have something to say about this too, because he obviously might not want to be back here, regardless of what the FO wants. But it's way too early right now.

[purplepoe]

I can't remember if it was on this board on somewhere else where someone brought up this point.

How many 1st round QBs that aren't successes re-sign with the team after their first contract runs out?

The list is short if there even is one.

The successful QBs sign extensions while the ones who struggle leave after the contract has expired.

Do I think it's 100% a done deal that Boller is gone after the year? No.

But IMO it's pretty close.

PP

[RavensNTerps]

I have sooo many problems with this thread I'm not sure where to begin. I guess I'll go with the fact that it shouldn't even be here. There is a forum that is dedicated to QB talk.

It kills me that Kyle is still such a lightening rod. He fractioned the Ravens on-line community possibly permanantly. The Boller Wars at YBR was a big reason that many of us came here. And the fact is that people get still get defensive whenever he is brought up or if someone criticizes him like for example how Dave jumped on PR/SB when he made the "fumbles and bumbles" crack.

And to be fair it is an honest criticism- Kyle does fall down and fumble more than other QBs on average. Also, where is the outrage when someone calls Orlando Brown "cyclops", Gary Baxter and now Samari Rolle "toast", Grbac "the Grbacle", TT and PJ "stonehands", or Moore a pussy. There isn't any because it is pretty much all true. The fact that none of these nicknames got banned but Dawson's Creek, Ebola, and whatever other nonesense WSO spewed out got eliminated over at YBR shows how sensitive people get when criticizing Kyle.

It is clear that Kyle has improved a little. He started stepping up into the pocket occasionally. However, the fact that that is considered a big and near groundbreaking improvement in a guys 4th year is also pretty telling.

I also get the impression that the staunchest of Boller's supporters have never really embraced McNair. You support McNair because you are good fans and want what is best for the team. But the speed at which people turned on Steve when Kyle played well this past season or at times when McNairs arm looked dead was astonishing. We want from 6-10 to 13-3 and Steve McNair is a huge part of that.

I like Kyle as a person and I do like all you guys as posters, even if you are holding on to the dream too long. Kyle held this team back when he was starting and he is incredibly shaky on the road. McNair's biggest imact on our record was playing a steady game on the road. I can't imagine how bad Kyle would be in the pressure packed playoffs. If you had to bet your life on Kyle raising his game for the playoffs, making plays and eliminating mistakes would you? Do you think he could out duel Brady in Foxborough? I wouldn't and I don't.

Ultimately, Kyle Boller is a tease. A guy with all the physical abilities in the world, but someone who it just doesn't click for, for whatever reason. Fans always get sucked in by tantalizers (Bill Simmons coined this term). Then after years and a million arguments later those supporters still don't get why he didn't put it all together. The simple, but frustrating answer is it just doesn't happen for some people. I said it in another thread, but Kyle's best chance of success is to stay here since he knows this system, but I just don't think that is going to happen for him. I think he will probably bounce around on a couple of teams like Harrington or Pat Ramsey and be out of the league before he is 30.

If god forbid McNair gets hurt and Kyle has to come in I hope he leads us all the way to a victory in AZ. I'll root for him because he is our QB. But the dream of him being our franchise guy is dead. It's best if we just let it go.

I disagree, a tad. Yeah, we went from 6-10 to 13-3, sure. But the 6-10 was a MASSIVE underachievement. It's not like we were the Browns. Hell, not saying we make the playoffs that year or anything, but I bet if Boller doesn't get hurt we finish at least 2 games better.

I'm not AGAINST McNair. But he didn't strike me as anything special, period. He didn't impress me in any single game, really, otehr then bits and flashes here and there. In fact, quite often, he looked like he couldn't make a lot of throws (the deep ones aren't my concern). My observance of that has very little to do with my support of Boller.

I'm not FOR one and against the other. But it's also not as cut and dry as people make it out to be. I honestly believe the offense has the potential to be more explosive under Boller, but that McNair should start.

[Baltoman07]

McNair didn't exactly make every Sunday a heart pounding experience. It seems to me when the rush was on he just threw a 3 yd pass. It seemed like he had no stomach to run the ball anymore, which is understandable considering a) his age, b) his previous injuries and c) the fact that he is a millionaire and doesn't really need to risk a crippling injury. I really enjoyed the games Boller played. Boller makes me wear my carpet out but when he makes plays it's really fun to watch.

[ExiledRaven]

with the recent DUI incident and McNair, if a suspension comes down, Boller would then have that 4 game trial at the beginning of the season like it or not for all of us.

I'm really concerned about that...but if it does happen and he does't play well, then the community should be united much more than the 29%-71% Boller is gone after this year. that should push it to 5-95 at least.

[Greg]

If Boller gets a 4 game stretch anywhere and doesn't perform competently to good in all those games he should be gone. If he performs very well in 3 and lays a clinker in 1 that would be good enough for me. But that is all for another day, let's just see how drunk these guys were.

If they are .10 than pfft. If they are both over .15 then McNair should get a 4 game suspension.

[OriAl]

I think, after Boller posted QB ratings of 100+ in four of his last five games, the brain trust would certainly be open to keeping him here beyond this season (if he wants to play for the moron fans who cheered his injury, that is.) The Ravens lose nothing by having Smith behind Boller, just as the Chargers kept Rivers behind Brees. McNair didn't really turn our offense into something spectacular last season (especially in the biggest game of the season), he's an older QB who's taken a lot of hits, and now there's this DUI thing that hopefully won't result in a suspension, but who knows? Boller may get a few games to show his stuff without McNair being injured.

What happens if Boller does start the season, and plays well (offense scores a lot of points, and he makes few mistakes?) That would be a good dilemma to have.

[ExiledRaven]

Once Boller leaves, I wonder if Tex will actually have to come up with something new to talk about :thumbup:

[dbcw]

I don't understand how people can say McNair did nothing special with the offense. While it wasn't "TOP 10", it wasn't 30th or below where it used to reside under our previous starters.

Boller is not going to be successful anywhere else because he is not a leader. Quarterbacks need to be leaders, not role players.

[dbcw]

I think most of Boller's success as a back up came because he was not the QB the defense spent a week scheming against. He was like a change-up pitch in baseball.

[festivus]

Boller is not going to be successful anywhere else because he is not a leader. Quarterbacks need to be leaders, not role players.

Do you have anything more than opinion to back this up? From any source, or anything you've seen, or are you just making it up because it suits your conclusion? Because everything I've heard or read suggests his teammates, particularly the young receiving corps, likes him.

I mean, I really wanted to avoid posting to this thread again, but this kind of stuff sticks in my craw. Tell me he's occasionally inaccurate, I'll say fine. Tell me he's occasionally butterfingered, I'll tell you yes, I've seen it.

But hell if he won't take wicked shots to make his throws, or cut some db to make a block, or jump up after getting crushed, or throw the ball downfield to try to make a play, or dive onto a loose ball. Those are things a *leader* does, and he does all of them.

Drive him out of town if you want, but keep it honest.

[Greg]

I think most of Boller's success as a back up came because he was not the QB the defense spent a week scheming against.
This is such a load of BS. Does the fact that the offense had spent all week preparing to be run by a different QB matter? If the offense changed that dramatically with Boller in there wouldn't that also be a problem for the offensive players?

And to quote Tex without reading a single word: "Boller sucks - CLICK - Boller sucks - Click - Boller sucks - CLICK - Boller sucks - Click - Boller sucks - CLICK - Boller sucks - Click - Boller sucks - CLICK - Boller sucks - Click - Boller sucks - CLICK - Boller sucks - Click - Boller sucks - CLICK - Boller sucks - Click - Boller sucks - CLICK - Boller sucks - Click - Boller sucks - CLICK - Boller sucks - Click - Boller sucks - CLICK - Boller sucks - Click - Boller sucks - CLICK - Boller sucks - Click - Boller sucks - CLICK - Boller sucks - Click - Boller sucks - CLICK - Boller sucks - Click - Boller sucks - CLICK - Boller sucks - Click - Boller sucks - CLICK - Boller sucks - Click - Boller sucks - CLICK - Boller sucks"

[dbcw]

festivus,

If you can show me one quote by any of his teammates saying "He's our leader out there," when referring to Boller, I'll take it back. But I have never heard or read of any Raven player speak of him in that regard. On top of it, I have never seen him orchestrate "his" offense as if he was the leader.

Taking shots, blocking, and throwing bombs down field are traits of a football player who plays hard. No one has ever said he doesn't play hard. He just doesn't play well.

According to Websters, a leader is one who "has commanding authority or influence". McNair has it. Ray has it. Dilfer had it. Boller does not. You can see it on the field and you can see it on the sidelines by the way the team reacts to each of them.

Plain and simple, Boller is a follower.

greg,

anything is possible

[Art-Florida]

In spite of all the profound pronouncements, some of us do not agree.

[festivus]

dbcw, you made a very specific proclamation. I asked you to back it up, and you repeated your conclusory argument.

Fine, I understand.

Greg, please remind me not to post in this thread anymore. :brickwall:

[crazyraven]

Does the fact that the offense had spent all week preparing to be run by a different QB matter?

No, it doesn't matter. Boller isn't walking on to the field without knowing the guys or the playbook. He does take some snaps during the week and is familiar with whats going on, or at least I like to believe that. Lets face it though, the games he did come in he played well considering and applauding the two freak plays against the panthers and the layup of a game with the Browns. As a fan of the ravens I was Happy with the win against the browns but upset about not being able to pull it out against Carolina. I think with all that is going on with Mcnair,We need to thank god we have Boller and that we didnt trade him away. We may need him now as a starter since Mcnair may be in some hot water.

Hopefully these charges are dropped and we dont have to worry. Even so we have a little bit of protection at this point.

[Dont Know]

If you can show me one quote by any of his teammates saying "He's our leader out there," when referring to Boller, I'll take it back.

Here you go (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/4845942):



Boller's teammates said they haven't lost faith in him.

"He's our quarterback, he's the leader of our offense," Mason said. "No matter what went on, I don't think we've lost confidence in him. I had confidence in him when I came here and I still have confidence in him."

Now then


But I have never heard or read of any Raven player speak of him in that regard.

Has that changed now?

[festivus]

:193:

[Greg]

No, it doesn't matter. Boller isn't walking on to the field without knowing the guys or the playbook. He does take some snaps during the week and is familiar with whats going on, or at least I like to believe that. Lets face it though, the games he did come in he played well considering and applauding the two freak plays against the panthers and the layup of a game with the Browns.
So then my original take was spot on, the offensive game plan did not change so which QB you planned for makes no difference. Thanks for the clarification.

You guys can't have it both ways, either the offense and defense both have to adapt to Boller or they don't. Each team knows both QBs strengths and weaknesses so the difference in style makes little difference. They can adjust immediately to Boller's weaker decision making and stronger arm.

C-choke was a layup for Boller?
Att Comp Pct Yds TD Int Rate Sac Yds Att Yds Avg Lg TD Fum Rec
41 23 56.1 264 1 0 83.8 2 10 2 -2 -1.0 -1 0 0 0
21 13 61.9 238 2 1 112.8 1 7 9 12 1.3 10 0 1 0

Wasn't such a layup for McNair.

And again, the freak plays, the first was a well thrown ball Mason just didn't haul in and the second was tipped at the line. Who knows whether that ball, if not tipped, is a good pass or not. When Clarence Moore doesn't complete his route and lets a perfectly good Boller throw go for a pick do you all start calculating that into the equation?

[crazyraven]

You guys can't have it both ways, either the offense and defense both have to adapt to Boller or they don't..
Greg I liked your assesement. I thought I was agreeing with you. Unless it just a knee jerk reaction. However I did have some reservations about the use of the word dramitic changes in the offense. We did well against who we played against. Nothing more nothing less.


Wasn't such a layup for McNair.
HUH? we won that game. Don't show me stats when the outcome of both games results in wins. To me its pointless. But if we are going to get to the nitty gritty In the past it was a game we would have lost on the road. That's the difference between the two qbs. Now I'm a huge critic of Mcnair once he gets this team to the next level, I expected better this season but we really cant complain about how he did during the season. (well you can if you want but who would be listening)


And again, the freak plays, the first was a well thrown ball Mason just didn't haul in and the second was tipped at the line. Who knows whether that ball, if not tipped, is a good pass or not. When Clarence Moore doesn't complete his route and lets a perfectly good Boller throw go for a pick do you all start calculating that into the equation?

All this if stuff is nonsense. Ex if Clarence ran his route straight, if the ball wasnt tip what would have happen. Without certainty you really cant say. Today I can sit back and say good for our guy kyle but in mid season thats not the type of plays you want to take to the coach and say put me in man I threw two tds, I deserve to be in there.

[Greg]

HUH? we won that game. Don't show me stats when the outcome of both games results in wins.
You said "layup" as in easy. C-choke games are not always "layups." That was the point.


All this if stuff is nonsense. Ex if Clarence ran his route straight, if the ball wasnt tip what would have happen. Without certainty you really cant say.
I am quite certain that if Clarence Moore, during a game against the Irsays in Indy, turns and completes his route over the middle instead of wimping out, that instead of a ball caught by a safety behind the play it would have been a 20 yard gain assuming Moore holds onto a very well thrown ball.

Boller has his issues, but the facts are his supporting cast was crap when he put up the 70 rating. When we added Mason what happened to Boller's stats? If he hadn't gotten hurt in 2005 I think he would have progressed nicely.

Anyway, I am not for starting Boller ahead of McNair, I am also not for planning our whole future on Boller. I am for continually looking for a new starter until we hit pay dirt. But I think it would be a mistake to let Boller go and just assume he has hit his peak. I think there is some upside that will show with a little more patience given the talent now available to throw to. But I wouldn't gamble the franchise's future on his panning out either.

[Ravenbird]

Um, Boller has had more than ample time to produce better than backup numbers and shown postively he cannot do it, even with a very good team around him. His road record is atrocious. No NFL QB will retain his starting job with a road record and rating as sported by Boller even if he was on a bottom rung team which the Ravens are clearly not. This thread is good for a chuckle though, I must admit. There is about as much chance of this happening as Sidney Ponson winning a Cy Young!:rolling:


I challange anyone to find me a qb in NFL history that played well at home and badly on the road. The reason why he has done worse on the road is more coincidence than anything else

[ClericBlackDave]

layup of a game with the Browns.


Regardless of the "layup game" the deep completions he had to Clayton and D Will are throws that McNair can't make anymore. And they are the kind of explosive difference-making plays that the offense needs.


Boller wins a game with some heads up play and he can't get credit. McNair wins in a game-managing Trent-Dilfer-ish way and he is the second coming.


Its incredible.


CrazyRaven, to clairfy, I'm not disagreeing with you or Greg. But I find it funny that in wording its tough for anyone to give Boller credit for anything.

[festivus]

Tex, this is what I wrote:

Tell me he's occasionally inaccurate, I'll say fine. Tell me he's occasionally butterfingered, I'll tell you yes, I've seen it.

This is how you responded:

Same way that some of you look at Boller and see the next Drew Brees where the realists see the reincarnation of Stoney Case

Neither I nor anyone else said Drew Brees. Understand, Tex, despite the depth of your passion on this (one) subject, *you* come across as the extremist, not the realist.

I would like to apologize deeply to all those who have Tex on ignore and who just accidentally read a line of his post because I quoted it here.

[crazyraven]

CrazyRaven, to clairfy, I'm not disagreeing with you or Greg. But I find it funny that in wording its tough for anyone to give Boller credit for anything.

That falls upon his shoulders. As the QB of the Baltimore Ravens he has a heavy burden to fullfil. He needs to win the tough games. Regardless when he was drafted or when he was put into the starting role.

As for as boller starting, Nobody wants to see that but in light of the mcnair DUI I'm glad we have somebody with some knowledge of our system right now. A few weeks ago I was perfectly happy to see him go to make room for troy but now I feel we need to keep him around for at least this season until this mess is off our plate

[ClericBlackDave]

How do you select ignore Tex Ritter/WSO/OldFan reincarnate?


I dont quite know how to navigate this forum's interface yet.

[festivus]

Go to the User CP button near the top left corner. Then there's a button (I think) down the left hand side called buddy/ignore list. Go from there, and hope people don't quote him in their own posts, because you of course still see those.

[Greg]

Actually, just scroll up and left click on his name, you will get 4 options. Select view his public profile and in the blue menu bar putting him on your ignore list will be available.

[festivus]

Greg I couldn't be less sorry about the thread drift. ;)

I tried that and the 'ignore' option doesn't come up for me. That's why I explained it the long way. What gives?

[Greg]

http://www.ravens24x7.com/forum/member.php?u=212

Below his avatar you should see a menu bar with the ignore option on it.

[festivus]

Thanks Greg. :)

[dbcw]

The problem I have with that quote Don't Know, is that it was stated to defend Boller, not praise him. What was Mason supposed to say?

When I think of a team revering a leader, I think of the 2001 team that was torn over Dilfer's departure. Dilfer was not, and is not an elite QB, but he was without a doubt one of the leaders of the team.

[festivus]

dbcw, *you* are the one who made the proposition. All I said was, back it up, because I am not persuaded by your word alone. You said, give me a quote that says I'm wrong, which Don't Know actually *did*, though I don't think he had to, because you are the one who'd gone around making mystical pronouncements about people's inner psyches.

Well, you got your quote. So either back up what you've said with some measurable observations, some plays or comments from coaches or personnels, or drop it. Spare us further trips to your dictionary, it doesn't have what you're looking for.

[dbcw]

Honestly, it's very difficult to describe the way teammates react to a leader and to a follower. Don't Know gave me a quote that when put into context really didn't sway my opinion. Granted, it met the criteria, but I think Mason did the PC thing in saying what he said.

Remember the turmoil the team went through in 2001 over losing Dilfer and acquiring Grbac? I would have expected to see or hear something similar if Boller was such a revered leader.

Why is Ray such a great leader? For one, he's an amazing player. Two, he can inspire lesser players to play at a much higher level. Three, every soul on the team knows Ray won't let them down and in turn they don't want to let him down.

There are many other traits that constitute being a leader, but those three are lacking in Boller. He's not an amazing player, he's not an inspiration, and he's never been relied upon to pull the team out of a rut.

I understand that there are those of you who really want him to succeed no matter what the cost, but I am not one of them. I've watched him maintain a level of competence well below what I think this team deserves. I wanted him to succeed, but I don't think he can do it; at least not as a Raven.

I know many of his supporters want to clamor about his games against the Vikings and Packers, but just as the law of averages will give Pro Bowl QBs a dud game or two, it will also give bad QBs (and yes he's a bad QB) a good game or two.

I don't want to make any enemies here, I am just stating my opinion as a fan just like the rest of you.

[festivus]

You're not making any enemies here.

You're not backing up your statements, either, now using gut feelings instead of dictionary definitions, and you as I think you know haven't yet articulated an argument supported by facts or observations.

I'm perfectly happy saying goodbye to him, you might be interested to know. Don't do what Tex does, and just assume everyone who doesn't agree with you thinks Kyle Boller is Drew Brees. I just want to be fair to him, and not saddle him with baggage beyond what he's already got.

And, by the way, if we had lost the game to Tennessee by failing to score on special teams on our way to the Suber Bowl, I somehow doubt you would be saying Trent Dilfer has 'leadership'.

:2c:

[dbcw]

Shannon Sharpe and Rod Woodson have both said Dilfer was a leader on the team and even went so far to say that they believe they would have repeated with him behind center.

I think it's a little far fetched, but it goes to show you what his teammates thought of him.

Another good example of a leader at QB would be Jeff Garcia after he stepped in for McNabb last season. He brought a spark to a team that was left for dead. His teammates didn't say the PC thing about him, they flat out praised him and lobbied to keep him. I haven't seen or heard anything similar regarding Boller.

Perhaps I missed it.

[festivus]

I don't mind long debates but I do hate unduly repetitive ones, so I'm bowing out. The readers can decide for themselves.

:toast:

[MikeinGlennDale]

Tony Banks has a super bowl ring.

Chris Redman is currently a professional football player in Atlanta.

Elvis Grbac, Stony Case, Eric Zaier, Scott Mitchell, those players careers as they exist today are left as an excercise to the reader.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Of course...a thread where Boller isn't given credit by some and McNair is a washed up Noodle Armed Tim Couch by others.

How predictable...