Jamal Needs to Run the Ball, Not His Mouth

[TL24x7]

“Over the last seven years when I was in Baltimore, we never made improvements on the offensive line,” Jamal Lewis said. “To have the power running game that we had, I just didn’t see how you didn’t (make changes). When I came here and Phil [Savage] said he was making improvements on the line, it was the actions that spoke louder than words. That’s what made me say this is where I want to be.”

The Rest... (http://ravens24x7.blogspot.com/2007/06/jamal-lewis-needs-to-run-ball-and-not.html)

[Raveninwoodlawn]

I don't understand why he is throwing guys under the bus?

Look, a blind man could see...well apparently everyone buy Ozzie and Brian at the time...that we needed a better offensive line.

Jamal doesn't need to take shot after shot after shot at the guys who from everything I've heard, absolutely loved Jamal and gave thier all for him.

It's a shame really.

Some people don't know the difference is speaking the truth, and being a loudmouth idiot...just because you are speaking the truth doesn't mean you should say it. Guys like Terrel Owens, Bryon Cox...etc just don't get it.

[festivus]

Hah! I wonder if he cracks 1000 yards with his million dollar body and ten cent head.

Good riddance.

[Art-Florida]

What a relief to get fragile whineboy out of here. We are down to just one Lewis now and counting....

Jermaine - left here and did uh.... pretty much nothing.
Marvin - went to hicksville and began recruiting criminals.
Jamal - departed for a better place. (he fits right in.)
Ray - is better than ever. (in his semi-mind)

Please Ozzie, NO MORE players named Lewis.

[Losac]

Yeah, and a week before he signed with the Brownies, Jamal was saying how he wanted to stay in Baltimore and hoped a deal could get done.

He is trying to get the Cleveland fans behind him by badmouthing Baltimore. Fuck Jamal.

And by the way: let's hear it for the Cleveland championship misery continuing! Swept by the Spurs! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

[lance1086]

Please Ozzie, NO MORE players named Lewis.

Huh?? All 4 of them had a HUGE part in our Super Bowl run. And the one that is still on our team, is a future hall-of-famer, that is still playing at a very high level. I can understand people having a little resent toward Jamal. But when did Marvin, Jermaine, or Ray ever do anything that hurt our team?

[Miz89]

What a relief to get fragile whineboy out of here. We are down to just one Lewis now and counting....

Jermaine - left here and did uh.... pretty much nothing.
Marvin - went to hicksville and began recruiting criminals.
Jamal - departed for a better place. (he fits right in.)
Ray - is better than ever. (in his semi-mind)

Please Ozzie, NO MORE players named Lewis.


Where is the I'm with stupid smile?

[purplepoe]

I for one think Jamal has something left.

Always have.

Our OL was PATHETIC run blocking last year.

Jamal isn't a scat back. If he were, his numbers would've been better last year.

Take a look at the 1st half of the Indy playoff game. Jamal look fast and strong.

I don't take what he said too seriously. Many players do this when they leave a team to go to another. And in this case, going from the Ravens to the Browns adds to the intensity.

I like the addition of McGahee but we gave him ALOT of cash and he's got alot to prove. Yes, he's a better option for a number of reasons. Age, style etc....

But if we want to see a huge improvement in the running game like many want, the focus should be on the blocking more than the RB.

I bet Jamal gets 1200 yds and 8 TDs this year.

PP

[ClericBlackDave]

Come on, PurplePoe, Jamal is done.


I dont think he even cracks 1100 yards this season.


He doesn't have the speed before. Jamal never had the vision, he relied on his fullback to lead the way and make crucial blocks. Then, once Jamal got to the 2nd level, he ONCE LONG AGO and 4.4 type speed for a battering ram type back. The secondary couldn't tackle him, and he could take them for a ride.


That speed is long gone. The ankle injuries and surgeries, and the lack of recovery from and ill-timed stay in jail . . . he doesn't ahve that kind of speed anymore.


And he doesn't have Ricard anymore to show him the way.


jamal is washed up. He's a one trick pony who had special speed. Mostly cutback running. now he's a slow a$$ pony who's lost a few steps.


Jamal started buying into his own bs way too quickly, then he got injured and wasnt the same. Maybe his ankle heals and he's back to the old jamal . . . if so, our loss . . . but as he was unable to get healthy for 2 years straight, and he had that 2000 yard season, its unlikely.


Honestly, we used the best of Jamal's juice up, so I can see why he's talking shit on us. That 1 year deal for 7 million was almost like a kickback to take care of jamal, pay him for that 2000 yard season, and see if he recovered. But he didn't.


Jamal is done. 1 in 100 chance he gets back to the jamal of old

[purplepoe]

Come on, PurplePoe, Jamal is done.


I dont think he even cracks 1100 yards this season.


He doesn't have the speed before. Jamal never had the vision, he relied on his fullback to lead the way and make crucial blocks. Then, once Jamal got to the 2nd level, he ONCE LONG AGO and 4.4 type speed for a battering ram type back. The secondary couldn't tackle him, and he could take them for a ride.


That speed is long gone. The ankle injuries and surgeries, and the lack of recovery from and ill-timed stay in jail . . . he doesn't ahve that kind of speed anymore.


And he doesn't have Ricard anymore to show him the way.


jamal is washed up. He's a one trick pony who had special speed. Mostly cutback running. now he's a slow a$$ pony who's lost a few steps.


Jamal started buying into his own bs way too quickly, then he got injured and wasnt the same. Maybe his ankle heals and he's back to the old jamal . . . if so, our loss . . . but as he was unable to get healthy for 2 years straight, and he had that 2000 yard season, its unlikely.


Honestly, we used the best of Jamal's juice up, so I can see why he's talking shit on us. That 1 year deal for 7 million was almost like a kickback to take care of jamal, pay him for that 2000 yard season, and see if he recovered. But he didn't.


Jamal is done. 1 in 100 chance he gets back to the jamal of old


I never said he would be the "Jamal of old".

I said he's got something left in the tank.

Let's put it this way. We gave McGahee a shitload of money to make this running game work.

While Im happy with his addition, I have a sneaking suspicion that come the end of the season, many are gonna wonder why we gave him so much cash and why his production wasn't that much better than Jamal's.

Why? Because our OL was horrendous blocking for the run.

1200 yds is 75 a game. Not exactly earth shattering.

Like I said. We'll see how he pans out.

All this stuff about him talking is meaningless. Happens all the time in the offseason. People buy into and get all pissed about it. I don't.

PP

[LBoogy]

I too think that Jamal still has something left (potentially).

RIW is right. Everyone knew that our O-line was horrible and needed to be improved. However, Jamal should have kept his mouth shut; those guys worked their asses off for him. I even remember Daniel Wilcox kissing Jamal's ass this offseason as if he was LT.

I think our horrible O-line was largely the reason why Jamal had difficulty running the ball over the past few years (that, and the playcalling). However, he's been pretty fragile and has definitely lost some ability over the years. It's been noticable in his cuts, his vision, and his speed.

I've always thought having strong trenches is the most important element of a football team. For the last 3-4 years the O-line has been PATHETIC. With a poor O-line, you're not going to have a good running OR passing game. Now, with additions such as Jason Brown, Chris Chester, Ben Grubbs, Adam Terry, and Marshal Yanda over the past few years, I expect our line to be VERY good for years to come.

Jamal needed a change of scenary and I'm much happier than Willis. But, I still think a 27-28 year old Jamal Lewis can be successful in Cleveland with their improved O-line.

[Sports Steve]

That's OK Jamal doesn't know what is coming his way when he plays us. Once the defense sees this they will drive him into the ground. He's just upset because he just realized he's now playing for the Browns hey I would be upset also.


Hope you're ready Jamal because you know what this defemse can do.:hammer:


:jester: :jester:

[awalt]

I like this line:

“Over the last seven years when I was in Baltimore, we never made improvements on the offensive line,”

So let's see, from 2001 - 2007 there were no improvements in the line. So home come he was able to go over 2,000 yards in 2003, that was all him?

IMHO there is not much left in Jamal's tank:
(1) He isn't quick enough to make anyone miss
(2) He can't outrun most people beyond the DL any more
(3) Like many backs who get to that age, they don't see the holes and accelerate through them fast enough any more.

The reality is, Jamal is statistically done. I wish I could find it, but years ago I read a fact that if you look at backs who run a certain amount of carries in a year (like over 350), they never have as good a season AGAIN. It hit them all. Of the almost 400 carries he ran in 2003 alone, 10% or 40 of them were worse than any car accident from an impact perspective.

The reality is 2003 finished Jamal for the pounding he took, and you saw just some of that with the injuries over the next 3 years.

[ClericBlackDave]

Let's put it this way. We gave McGahee a shitload of money to make this running game work


The key is, we didn't. We got a steal on McGahee.


You need to get past the surface numbers and understand the new CBA and the way it affects contracts. A simple example is the fact that Ovie Mughelli got an 8 Million dollar bonus. Oh and what did we extend Jarett Johnson for, on a 2 or 3 year extension?


The new CBA has made room for much larger contracts. Thank god. Finally you can see Quality o-lineman and rbs and other grunts get the money they deserve for sacrificing their body.


There is a reason why players will very rarely play under the franchise tag now:


The franchise tag is the average of the top 5 players, most of which have contract BEFORE THE NEW CBA


Under the new CBA, the upfront money/bonus even on a mediocre deal kills the franchise tag. Again, look at Mughelli a fullback, or the other average players who get deals.


McGahee was a steal. And its voidable after this year. ONce you understand that, and how done Jamal is, you'll be sold.


Jamal's biggest problem was lack of vision, followed by no speed. He is now Jerome Bettis, but not as big. And he doesn't find the wide open running room when its there.


McGahee get's 1400 yards at least with this team, no doubt. Plus add on some reciever yards.


We saw what Chester Taylor did catching the ball that Jamal couldn't. And that was with Boller oooooh nooooo!!! Watch what McGahee does now . . .


Jamal with be a distant memory after this year.

[purplepoe]

The key is, we didn't. We got a steal on McGahee.


You need to get past the surface numbers and understand the new CBA and the way it affects contracts. A simple example is the fact that Ovie Mughelli got an 8 Million dollar bonus. Oh and what did we extend Jarett Johnson for, on a 2 or 3 year extension?


The new CBA has made room for much larger contracts. Thank god. Finally you can see Quality o-lineman and rbs and other grunts get the money they deserve for sacrificing their body.


There is a reason why players will very rarely play under the franchise tag now:


The franchise tag is the average of the top 5 players, most of which have contract BEFORE THE NEW CBA


Under the new CBA, the upfront money/bonus even on a mediocre deal kills the franchise tag. Again, look at Mughelli a fullback, or the other average players who get deals.


McGahee was a steal. And its voidable after this year. ONce you understand that, and how done Jamal is, you'll be sold.


Jamal's biggest problem was lack of vision, followed by no speed. He is now Jerome Bettis, but not as big. And he doesn't find the wide open running room when its there.


McGahee get's 1400 yards at least with this team, no doubt. Plus add on some reciever yards.


We saw what Chester Taylor did catching the ball that Jamal couldn't. And that was with Boller oooooh nooooo!!! Watch what McGahee does now . . .


Jamal with be a distant memory after this year.

Thanks for the "education" Dave.

Im well aware of the new CBA and it's effect on contracts.

McGahee's deal is voidable after one year? Say what?

If we cut him after this year he'd count for $13.75 million against the 2008 cap. If he were after June 1, he'd count $2.25 million in 2008, and the remaining $11.5 million in 2009. After '08, he'd count either $11.5 million in 2009, or $2.55 million in 2009 and $8.95 million in 2010.

Again, please tell us how this deal is easily voidable after this season. Seems to me that you don't exactly "understand" McGahee's deal.

Just because the new CBA has upped the total cap number doesn't mean that large contracts can't hurt teams.

And all this talk doesn't change the fact that the Ravens made a significant investment in McGahee and he needs to up his game to warrant that money.

Again, Im happy with the aquisition but Im not gonna make it more than it really is. This OL needs to block MUCH better. I don't think anyone is losing sleep about the fact that Jamal is gone. However, they might lose sleep when they realize McGahee's production might not be as great as some might think. Hey, he could blow up. I'd love to see it. He's gonna be paid like a RB that should be damn good.

We'll see both Jamal's and McGahee's stats after this season. What we know now is Willis is MUCH more expensive. The question will be....Was his production enough to warrant the money?

And do yourself a favor and leave Boller's name out of this. The fact that you are so sure Jamal is done yet continually praise Boller doesn't help your argument. Keep his name to pipedream threads about him being a Raven next season.

PP

[ClericBlackDave]

Where is Ian when you need him . . . too bad he doesn't post on this board.


McGahee's deal, IIRC, is similar to the Jamal deal in taht its essentially a 1 year 7-8 million dollar deal if he underperforms. I will find this in writing and edit this post as soon as I find it.


It was a great deal by Ozzie. And while I'm sure you say you understand the new CBA, I dont think you really do. I barely think the league understands it when you see teams like the Patriots handle players like Asante Samuel and Deion Branch they way they do.


Its a steal. Additionally, the contracts we signed Ray, Heap, Reed, etc to were all deals compared to what they'd get under the new CBA.


I'm going to find the hard facts on the McGahee deal, but you're WAAAAAY over estimating what we paid relative to what people get paid in the new CBA.

Edit:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/08/AR2007030801021.html

"Of the $15 million, half is signing bonus and half is divided between two option bonuses. McGahee had one season left on his contract with the Bills when Baltimore traded for him, and his new contract replaces that one."


IIRC 7.5 is a signing bonus, and this years he's making about vet minimum. Thats the 8 mil he'll make this year guaranteed.


Then, if we don't cut him and void it, there are 2 roster bonuses that we have to pick up. IN any case, we have the power to let him go if its a bust, and 7 mil isn't that much under the new CBA, hence elite players take the franchise tag as an insult nowadays; who's tyring to play for that straight up when you can get that and more as a bonus.


The McGahee deal is a stroke of brilliance by Ozzie, as was letting go of Jamal, even if McGahee isn't the answer.


Jamal is done.



And do yourself a favor and leave Boller's name out of this. The fact that you are so sure Jamal is done yet continually praise Boller doesn't help your argument. Keep his name to pipedream threads about him being a Raven next season.


What I said was that even with that "bum" Boller throwing him the ball, Chester Taylor performed well recieving. He showed what a real complete RB can do for this team recieving, things that stonehands Jamal couldn't do. With McNair throwing to McGahee, no way he doesn't have a good year recieving and running. I think he'll ahve at least 1600 all purpose yards if not more.

[Tspot-D-Ravenator]

A little hard on the Lewis' there Art..You are a very hard-hearted man....Ray Lewis is the main reason we even won that Superbowl...Chill out on Ozzie and the Lewis'...:nerd:


What a relief to get fragile whineboy out of here. We are down to just one Lewis now and counting....

Jermaine - left here and did uh.... pretty much nothing.
Marvin - went to hicksville and began recruiting criminals.
Jamal - departed for a better place. (he fits right in.)
Ray - is better than ever. (in his semi-mind)

Please Ozzie, NO MORE players named Lewis.

[psuasskicker]

And he doesn't have Ricard anymore to show him the way.

Yes he does. Cleveland signed Ricard a couple months back.

PurplePoe, I don't know where you're getting your numbers for what McGahee would count against the cap if he's cut, but they're way wrong. He gets $7.5 mil this year over 7 years, $6 mil next over 6, and $1.5 mil the next over five.

If we cut him next year - obviously we'd do it before paying him the $6 mil - he'd hit our cap for $6.43 mil. If we cut him the following year before the $1.5 mil it would be the most expensive hit for us, at $10.36 mil. Cutting him the year after that would cost $9.49 but we'd probably wait till the June deadline to cut him which would only cost $7.11 mil.

In my opinion, Jamal's got enough gas left in the tank and Cleveland has an improved enough OL that he can go for 1,200 on the season. He doesn't have the breakaway speed he used to and he doesn't have the power to barrel through the line. But he can still be effective and chew some yards. And unlike what we did last year, Crennel will lean on him to take pressure off Quinn.

He won't have a terrific year by any stretch. But my guess is he'll run for more yards than he did with us last year, but probably not as many TDs.

- C -

[purplepoe]

Where is Ian when you need him . . . too bad he doesn't post on this board.


McGahee's deal, IIRC, is similar to the Jamal deal in taht its essentially a 1 year 7-8 million dollar deal if he underperforms. I will find this in writing and edit this post as soon as I find it.


It was a great deal by Ozzie. And while I'm sure you say you understand the new CBA, I dont think you really do. I barely think the league understands it when you see teams like the Patriots handle players like Asante Samuel and Deion Branch they way they do.


Its a steal. Additionally, the contracts we signed Ray, Heap, Reed, etc to were all deals compared to what they'd get under the new CBA.


I'm going to find the hard facts on the McGahee deal, but you're WAAAAAY over estimating what we paid relative to what people get paid in the new CBA.

Edit:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/08/AR2007030801021.html

"Of the $15 million, half is signing bonus and half is divided between two option bonuses. McGahee had one season left on his contract with the Bills when Baltimore traded for him, and his new contract replaces that one."


IIRC 7.5 is a signing bonus, and this years he's making about vet minimum. Thats the 8 mil he'll make this year guaranteed.


Then, if we don't cut him and void it, there are 2 roster bonuses that we have to pick up. IN any case, we have the power to let him go if its a bust, and 7 mil isn't that much under the new CBA, hence elite players take the franchise tag as an insult nowadays; who's tyring to play for that straight up when you can get that and more as a bonus.


The McGahee deal is a stroke of brilliance by Ozzie, as was letting go of Jamal, even if McGahee isn't the answer.


Jamal is done.





What I said was that even with that "bum" Boller throwing him the ball, Chester Taylor performed well recieving. He showed what a real complete RB can do for this team recieving, things that stonehands Jamal couldn't do. With McNair throwing to McGahee, no way he doesn't have a good year recieving and running. I think he'll ahve at least 1600 all purpose yards if not more.


1. I doubt you want Ian to post here considering I talk to him on the other board and he gave me McGahee's exact year by year breakdown so I could crunch the numbers. This is IS NOT like Jamal's deal and will have big time cap implications if we cut McGahee early in the deal.

2. The Patriots handle guys like Branch and Samuel like they do because they know that they aren't nearly as good as they think they are. Samuel has some nice numbers when it comes to picks and he wants to cash in big for it. The Pats know he's not an elite shutdown corner and therefore won't give in to a huge deal. Same went for Branch.

3. When we signed Ray, Heap, and Reed, they were all considered either the best in the NFL at their position or close to it (Heap). Ray and Reed were pretty much consensus #1.

4. I've got the hard facts on the McGahee deal. If they cut him after 07, there is 13.75 million in dead money. If they cut him after 08, it's 11.5. They can use the June 1 to spread it out a bit but it's still a big hit either way you slice it Again, how you are concluding that this deal is like Jamal's is beyond me.

5. If McGahee performs like a top 5 or even top 7 RB, the deal looks fine. But he's got to prove that Dave. He hasn't. Like I said before, the other 3 Ravens you mentioned above PROVED their worth. This McGahee deal is an aboslute risk and to deny that is like sticking your head in the sand.

6. I know exactly what you meant by Boller. I just don't understad why you even bring him up. He has zero to do with this debate. When others bring him in to debates not involving him, they get chastised.


PP

[purplepoe]

Yes he does. Cleveland signed Ricard a couple months back.

PurplePoe, I don't know where you're getting your numbers for what McGahee would count against the cap if he's cut, but they're way wrong. He gets $7.5 mil this year over 7 years, $6 mil next over 6, and $1.5 mil the next over five.

If we cut him next year - obviously we'd do it before paying him the $6 mil - he'd hit our cap for $6.43 mil. If we cut him the following year before the $1.5 mil it would be the most expensive hit for us, at $10.36 mil. Cutting him the year after that would cost $9.49 but we'd probably wait till the June deadline to cut him which would only cost $7.11 mil.

In my opinion, Jamal's got enough gas left in the tank and Cleveland has an improved enough OL that he can go for 1,200 on the season. He doesn't have the breakaway speed he used to and he doesn't have the power to barrel through the line. But he can still be effective and chew some yards. And unlike what we did last year, Crennel will lean on him to take pressure off Quinn.

He won't have a terrific year by any stretch. But my guess is he'll run for more yards than he did with us last year, but probably not as many TDs.

- C -


Actually, Ricard was cut earlier this week by the Browns.

The bonus' are guaranteed. So even if we did cut him before paying him the 6 million bonus, that money doens't get erased from the cap figures. And even if you were right, those hits aren't exactly tiny.

Im with on you Jamal.

PP

[ClericBlackDave]

The bonus' are guaranteed. So even if we did cut him before paying him the 6 million bonus, that money doens't get erased from the cap figures. And even if you were right, those hits aren't exactly tiny.


You're wrong. Check out the contract. If we void it after this year, thats it. However to keep the deal going, there's two roster / option bonus that we aren't requirement to give him.


Its like any other deal, really very similar to Heaps actually.


If if this year, one and done, we're on the hook for about 7 mil including salary on this cap. Thats it.


Everythign after that has to be triggered by roster / option bonuses that aren't guarnteed.


Its a good deal. Please give a link or have anyone back up this assertion that its 15 mil guaranteed. More than half of that 15 is money the Ravens dont have to give after this year if he tanks it, which I doubt.

[purplepoe]

You're wrong. Check out the contract. If we void it after this year, thats it. However to keep the deal going, there's two roster / option bonus that we aren't requirement to give him.


Its like any other deal, really very similar to Heaps actually.


If if this year, one and done, we're on the hook for about 7 mil including salary on this cap. Thats it.


Everythign after that has to be triggered by roster / option bonuses that aren't guarnteed.


Its a good deal. Please give a link or have anyone back up this assertion that its 15 mil guaranteed. More than half of that 15 is money the Ravens dont have to give after this year if he tanks it, which I doubt.

LOL.

The person who backed it up is the person who you wish was posting here.

PP

[ClericBlackDave]

PurplePoe, I don't know where you're getting your numbers for what McGahee would count against the cap if he's cut, but they're way wrong. He gets $7.5 mil this year over 7 years, $6 mil next over 6, and $1.5 mil the next over five.


That is whats going on here. Its a 6 mil bonus 1st year and his base salary. Nothing else is guaranteed past this year.


The rest of the 15 mil in "guaranteed money" is in roster bonus / option bonuses that aren't guaranteed unless the team gives it to him.


Please show me the facts to the contrary, PurplePoe.

[ClericBlackDave]

Another source:


McGahee, who was entering the final year of his contract with the Bills, will receive a $7.5 million signing bonus from the Ravens this year and a $6 million option bonus after the 2007 season.

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/189984

Its basically 8 million up front between the signing bonus and his vet minimum salary. That is what is truly "guaranteed"

The other figures are roster bonuses and the like that we can give McGahee to keep the party going if he has the year with us that obviously Newsome, Billick, and Bisciotti expect.

[purplepoe]

That is whats going on here. Its a 6 mil bonus 1st year and his base salary. Nothing else is guaranteed past this year.


The rest of the 15 mil in "guaranteed money" is in roster bonus / option bonuses that aren't guaranteed unless the team gives it to him.


Please show me the facts to the contrary, PurplePoe.

Sigh.

Okey Doke Dave.

PP

[IanWhetstone]

You're wrong. Check out the contract. If we void it after this year, thats it. However to keep the deal going, there's two roster / option bonus that we aren't requirement to give him.


Its like any other deal, really very similar to Heaps actually.

Hey, fellas. I don't get around here much, but Poe is absolutely right; the second- and third-year option bonuses are fully guaranteed. Even if Baltimore were to cut McGahee before they came due, they'd still be on the hook for that money and it would come due against the cap. What the "options" do is buy back guarantees on future salaries, so there's no way around paying that money.

You are right in that it's very similar to Heap's deal; his $7 million "option" in the second year of his deal was fully-guaranteed, too. Actually, McGahee's deal is almost exactly the same as Ed Reed's, with the only differences being the slightly higher minimum salaries in the first three years, and some differences in how the bonuses hit the cap because of CBA changes.

This is not a "try before you buy" deal that they gave McGahee. Quite the contrary; because the bonus payouts are spaced over three years and the prorations consequently pushed into future years, they're absolutely banking on him panning out over at least a four or five year period; to have to let him go before then would be highly financially disadvantageous.

There's a metric that I like to use to measure the "risk" in NFL contracts that looks at the payout structure relative to the cap hit structure, and factors in the overall contract size. The higher the number, the higher the risk. It's not perfect, but it's a starting point for looking at which contracts on a team stand the best (or worst, as it were) chance of screwing with the team's finances down the line if the player doesn't pan out. Mind you, it doesn't mean by itself that the contract is "bad;" only that's it's risky, in that it will have more serious consequences if the player doesn't live up to his salary.

Under this metric, McGahee's contract scores a 16.955, which is really high. For comparison, the deal that San Francisco gave Nate Clements, despite being much larger and containing more guaranteed money, scores a 14.137. The deal that Jarrett Johnson signed this off-season scores a 9.412; Kelly Gregg's extension scores a 4.789.

The McGahee deal, in my view, was a poor contract for a player of his lackluster track record. It demands that he play much better over the next four years than he did over the first four years, and can't really be gotten out of before then without a lot of financial pain.

[purplepoe]

Its a good deal. Please give a link or have anyone back up this assertion that its 15 mil guaranteed. More than half of that 15 is money the Ravens dont have to give after this year if he tanks it, which I doubt.




Please show me the facts to the contrary, PurplePoe.

Ask and you shall receive.

Maybe you can stop telling me how wrong I am now.

PP

[ClericBlackDave]

I stand corrected if Ian is correct. However, I would like to see some links from a website that confirm that structure. The article I have have the 2nd half of it as a roster bonus.

[purplepoe]

I stand corrected if Ian is correct. However, I would like to see some links from a website that confirm that structure. The article I have have the 2nd half of it as a roster bonus.

So let me get this straight.

You wouldn't believe what I've been saying from the get go.

Even after you mentioned Ian and I told you that I had conferred with him about this because we both know how well versed he is with this stuff.

Now Ian comes to set the record straight and you want links to confirm?

Again, there are 2 roster/option bonus'. That's been established. The reality is that those 2 bonus' (6 million in 08 and 1.5 and 09) are guaranteed and not eraseable from the cap if we cut him next year.

This is deal is FAR from anything close to the Jamal Lewis deal. It's a risky one as well.

McGahee most certainly needs to take a major step forward to justify this contract along with the draft picks we gave up to get him.

That said, Im excited about the aquisition and hope he turns out to be the real deal.

But it's no risk free investment.

PP

[psuasskicker]

Who is Ian?

- C -

[IanWhetstone]

I would like to see some links from a website that confirm that structure. The article I have have the 2nd half of it as a roster bonus.

I'm not sure that I have one. I am sure enough that it is as I've described, though, to refer to it as fact. I'm pretty meticulous in my notes about this stuff, but the sources don't always stay up on the web.

Reports will very often misrepresent bonus money as roster or option or whatever else, or just describe all of the guaranteed money as a signing bonus. But I'm quite certain that McGahee gets $15 million in true guarantees from Baltimore, and that structure of the deal is this:

2007: $7,500,000 signing bonus, $595,000 salary, $1,845,000 cap charge
2008: $6,000,000 guaranteed option bonus, $605,000 salary, $2,855,000 cap charge, $13,750,000 dead money if cut
2009: $1,500,000 guaranteed option bonus, $620,000 salary, $3,170,000 cap charge, $11,500,000 dead money if cut
2010: $3,600,000 salary, $6,150,000 cap charge, $8,950,000 dead money if cut
2011: $6,000,000 salary, $8,550,000 cap charge, $6,400,000 dead money if cut
2012: $6,500,000 salary, $9,050,000 cap charge, $3,850,000 dead money if cut
2013: $7,200,000 salary, $8,500,000 cap charge, $1,300,000 dead money if cut

[ClericBlackDave]

So let me get this straight.

You wouldn't believe what I've been saying from the get go.

Even after you mentioned Ian and I told you that I had conferred with him about this because we both know how well versed he is with this stuff.

Now Ian comes to set the record straight and you want links to confirm?


Why wouldn't I want links? I posted 2 links that the other half of the bonus was a roster bonus which, inherently, isn't guaranteed unless he's on the roster at the time the bonus is due, i.e. after the 1st year.



Reports will very often misrepresent bonus money as roster or option or whatever else, or just describe all of the guaranteed money as a signing bonus. But I'm quite certain that McGahee gets $15 million in true guarantees from Baltimore


And this is where, while I respect Ian's capology skills as far superior to mine or yours, Poe, I'm looking for a link.


Because 2 links I've posted have the information as the other half as a roster bonus, which is really not "guaranteed" in the truest sense of the word.


If its a roster bonus, its a great deal. If its a 2nd tier bonus, or basically a 2nd signing bonus that appears next year, its a huge commitment.


I'm still pretty sure that all the things I've seen on the deal is that only that 1st bonus is a true "guanteed" bonus, as in when he signed on the dotted line, 8 mil was guaranteed, not 15


respect to Ian, but really w/o proof that the 2nd bonus isn't a roster bonus, we're at the same impass.


Except, I've posted 2 sources as saying its a roster bonus.

[IanWhetstone]

Here's the first report that I ever saw giving specific numbers, from PFT (http://www.profootballtalk.com/3-8-07through3-15-07.htm), which is one of the better web sources for good contract data:

POSTED 3:13 p.m. EST; LAST UPDATED 4:05 p.m. EST, March 8, 2007

McGAHEE DEAL: SEVEN YEARS, $40.12 MILLION

We're told that the Ravens and running back Willis McGahee are very close to agreeing on a seven-year deal worth $40.12 million.

As we previously explained, McGahee will receive $7.5 million to sign, an initial option bonus of $6 million, and a second option bonus of $1.5 million. The salaries are $595,000 in 2007, $605,000 in 2008, $620,000 in 2009, $3.6 million in 2010, $6.0 million in 2011, $6.5 million in 2012, and $7.2 million in 2013.

Since McGahee was due to earn $2.155 million in 2007, the deal is essentially a six-year extension worth $37.965 million.

If the Ravens cut McGahee before the back-end salaries kick in, he will earn a total of $20.42 million over four years.

He doesn't specifically cite the option bonuses as being guaranteed, but... uh, they are. I promise. Earlier, viewable at that same link, he described the $15 million as a three-tiered signing bonus, I would assume so as to imply the guaranteed nature of the bonuses. (Mind you, that's not where I'm getting the understanding the option bonuses a fully-guaranteed. Just pointing it out.)

Every multi-tiered bonus the Ravens have paid out since the Elvis Grbac contract has been fully guaranteed; his was the last truly "optional" option in Baltimore. The deals for Ray Lewis, Boulware, McAlister, Heap, Reed... they all used guaranteed option bonuses to split the guarantee payments. Really, you can believe whatever you want, but I'm telling you, those options are fully guaranteed, and McGahee isn't going anywhere for at least four years no matter how he plays without some steep financial consequences.

[RavenScallywag]

I only have two things to say about this:

1. If Cleveland gives him the ball again and again, he could easily break 1000 yards this year, but no way is he in 1400 yard form. Jamal complained about Baltimore not giving him the ball 20+ times a game, which he said allowed him to have 100+ yards games. When we did give him the ball 20+ times, it was about half and half. I think Cleveland will give him the ball 25-30 times a game, and so long as he averages about 3 yards on a carry, he'll still get his 100 yard game. But, no way is he going to be the best RB in this division. In fact, I'd rank it Rudi Johnson, Willie Parker/Willis McGahee, Jamal.

2. I really don't care what kind've yardage he gets, so long as we make sure he gets NOTHING in the 4 games he plays against us this year. I don't even want to give him the change to get 80 yards in a game against us, because you know he will run his motormouth for whatever he gets against us.

[Miz89]

I think we all be pleasantly surprised by McGahee. Everyone knows he has the talent to be an elite back, and I think he'll get there this year.

[ClericBlackDave]

He doesn't specifically cite the option bonuses as being guaranteed, but... uh, they are. I promise. Earlier, viewable at that same link, he described the $15 million as a three-tiered signing bonus, I would assume so as to imply the guaranteed nature of the bonuses. (Mind you, that's not where I'm getting the understanding the option bonuses a fully-guaranteed. Just pointing it out.)

Every multi-tiered bonus the Ravens have paid out since the Elvis Grbac contract has been fully guaranteed


While I agree with you that this team will pay out that 2nd tier bonus because that's our M.O., that that given this tendency, he's going to get the money, I still believe that technically the 2nd half of the bonuses are optional.


I mean basically we're at a point where is best to agree to agree and disagree.


I agree McGahee is going to get that money, and that its a large investment.


I disagree that its technically "guaranteed" until someone proves that the option/roster bonuses aren't optional.


I do think we'll pick them up, and that it would take a massive disaster of a year from McGahee to not pick them up. However, lets say that does happen, or there's a catastrophic knee injury again or something, I do think there's the out here for the Ravens.

[purplepoe]

Why wouldn't I want links? I posted 2 links that the other half of the bonus was a roster bonus which, inherently, isn't guaranteed unless he's on the roster at the time the bonus is due, i.e. after the 1st year.

Umm.

YOU were the one who wanted Ian to come clear this up.

But since he agrees with what I've been saying, all of a sudden his opinion doesn't mean as much.

At least, that's what it looks like.

Look Dave. You sat here and said McGahee's deal was just like Jamal's. And you know that's not close to being true.

We're on the hook big time if we decide to cut McGahee after this year. However, that scenario is extremely far fetched.

There's not much else to say about this topic.

McGahee is getting paid to be a big time RB for this team. The one thing we can both agree on is that we hope he steps up and does just that.

PP

[ClericBlackDave]

Look Dave. You sat here and said McGahee's deal was just like Jamal's. And you know that's not close to being true.


No, I dont. As far as I know, every media source I found has the 15 mil part of the deal as 1/2 signing bonus (trully guaranteed) and 1/2 roster / option bonus (guaranteed if he's on the roster after 2007)


With Ian not being sure about it, what am I supposed to do? I guess I just say its right because he thinks so?


I agree with Ian that for an practical purposes the Ravens will pay McGahee the bonus, but I disagree that there isn't an out for the club if its a complete flop, and the new media I've seen on it agree with me.


What do you want?

[IanWhetstone]

With Ian not being sure about it, what am I supposed to do? I guess I just say its right because he thinks so?
I'm not unsure; quite the contrary, I'm very sure. My being sure may not be adequate for you, which is fine, but I myself am certain beyond a reasonable doubt.

[ClericBlackDave]

I'm not unsure; quite the contrary, I'm very sure. My being sure may not be adequate for you, which is fine, but I myself am certain beyond a reasonable doubt.

Well I guess case closed then.

[IanWhetstone]

Not to drag this topic back out again, but I did wander across this little bit of reporting (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-mcgaheeupdate030807&prov=yhoo&type=lgns) from Jason Cole of Yahoo! Sports:

Agent Drew Rosenhaus confirmed the deal, which included $15 million in guarantees. That guarantee comes in the form of a $7.5 million signing bonus McGahee will be paid now and guaranteed option bonuses of $6 million in 2008 and $1.5 million in 2009. Beyond that, McGahee receives base salaries of $595,000 in 2007 (final year of original deal), $605,000 in 2008, $620,000 in 2009, $3.6 million in 2010, $6 million in 2011, $6.5 million in 2012 and $7.2 million in 2013.

[ClericBlackDave]

I appreciate the confirmation. Thats why I trust your info for the most part more than anyone else on the board(s).