Michael Vick charged

[Sports Steve]

ESPN reporting Michael Vick has now been charged in the Dog fighting case.

:jester: :jester:

[section553]

Good. Couldnt have happened to a bigger asshole. I hope they actually punish him. What ever they throw at him wont be enough.

[Fcowher]

I have a "friend" @ FSU, who is very close to the football program, and he has been trumpting for years what total jerks the Vick brothers are and it seems the more I learn about them the more my friend is right.

[deuce]

If he is found guilty he should be banned from the league. Also he should be severely beaten.

[highwater]

Wow, some of the details of this indictment are stunning -- they executed dogs by drowning them, electrocuting them, and hanging them?!? That sounds insanely sadistic. I hope they throw the book at all four of these guys.

[Mista T]

If he is found guilty he should be banned from the league.

I don't think that we'll ever see Vick play another down in the NFL. Just based on the indictment, I expect to see the "Law & Order" team in the NFL office suspend him, then permanently ban him if convicted & imprisoned.

Not that I personally agree about the severity of the offense. He was not responsible for mistreatment of humans. Millions of animals are mistreated daily in the processing of food.

[OregonRaven]

If he is found guilty he should be banned from the league. Also he should be severely beaten.

I say let the punishment fit the crime. If guilty he should "fixed up" to be a piece of bait (http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/football/bal-dogfight717,0,2492796.story) for a UFC match.


...dogs used as "bait," weaker animals set between two hungry fighters to get them riled, show up in even sadder states. Many have been declawed or intentionally blinded: "anything to make them as defenseless as possible," ...

[Losac]

Not that I personally agree about the severity of the offense. He was not responsible for mistreatment of humans. Millions of animals are mistreated daily in the processing of food.
Sorry T, but I couldn't disagree more. What Vick did was reprehensible. Dogs do nothing but show unconditional love and to be beaten, hanged, and electrocuted isn't even in the same ballpark with chickens or cattle being slaughtered for mass production of food. We do that for FOOD (sustenance, nutrition), while these thugs were torturing and killing these animals for kicks and gambling purposes.

I'd put the life of my dog over the life of a lot of people I know.

[crazyraven]

I'd put the life of my dog over the life of a lot of people I know.

Sorry but you can't give credence to this type of thinking. Human life is more valuable than a dogs. At least that is how we think about things like that down here on earth.

[birdbrain]

Amen Losac......I used to work for a poultry company and those PETA imbeciles made me laugh.......all that aside, I hope Vick goes away long time.....

[Losac]

Sorry but you can't give credence to this type of thinking. Human life is more valuable than a dogs. At least that is how we think about things like that down here on earth.

Your opinions on the matter are known, crazy. We've had this argument on here before.

[Admin Steve]

According to the article on ESPN, he bought a vacant house, put up a big fence to hide what was going on, built kennels and then constructed another two story house (with a basketball court) to house the people presumably training these dogs.

And this wasn't to show them off at Westminster Dog Show.

He's toast. Check your keeper leagues lol.

[AZRAVEN]

Sorry but you can't give credence to this type of thinking. Human life is more valuable than a dogs. At least that is how we think about things like that down here on earth.

If you want to even consider scum that would do such things as inflict pain and suffering on any living thing humans be my guest but on the part of earth I inhabit I don't consider them human at all. Personally I hope there is a special place in hell for them. I never want to see Vick on a football field again and if he is I would violate my own long standing rule about never wishing an injury on a player!

[highwater]

The "they're just dogs" people amaze me. Think about what these freaks did -- they didn't just fight dogs, they killed dogs that they thought didn't have the potential to be good fighters. And they didn't just shoot them, they executed them by drowning, electrocution, hanging, and in at least one case, slamming a dog repeatedly to the ground until he died. How twisted a person do you have to be to do something like that?

These guys, Vick included, are not normal, and I hope they spend all the time in the clink that the law allows (which is apparently six years, from what I read today).

And you can forget about Vick in the NFL after this season, and even this season may be shortened. His reputation, which wasn't stellar to begin with, is totally shot now.

[Admin Steve]

Face it. He's not that bright. Remember this:

http://www.youtube.com/v/RjtVnqZCndo

[Real Fan Dan]

If found guilty let the punishment fit the crime:

Introduce the Vick bros to cockfighting.
Strap razors to their legs and let 'em fight it out.
May the biggest dick win. :laugh:

[BUDDAROW]

Sorry T, but I couldn't disagree more. What Vick did was reprehensible. Dogs do nothing but show unconditional love and to be beaten, hanged, and electrocuted isn't even in the same ballpark with chickens or cattle being slaughtered for mass production of food. We do that for FOOD (sustenance, nutrition), while these thugs were torturing and killing these animals for kicks and gambling purposes.

I'd put the life of my dog over the life of a lot of people I know.


I'd second THAT losac!!!

[crazyraven]

The "they're just dogs" people amaze me.
A dog is a dumb animal, Ok maybe they'll fetch your slippers and shit but for the most part they dont really matter in the grand scheme of life.

SOme of these guys who are struggling trying to make ends meet get caught up in this line of work because of their situations. Unfortuantely there is a demand for this type of entertainment (throw in cock fighting too) that people are will to pay big money and they are willing to provide. Its rampant in Baltimore and Virginia. People are doing it. Would I pay to see this or gamble on it....FUCK NO. but we are talking about pitbulls who will rip your heart out if they didnt have a muzzle on their mugs.

Just a few months ago we were talking about this and I spoke about how there is always a story in the paper about these fuckers tearing into a small boy or something. A few months later I show a band new story with out even having to break a sweat to find http://www.kten.com/Global/story.asp?S=6802966

[Art-Florida]

All Pitbulls should be sterilized and be made extinct. As for the slime we are talking about, those who torture the dogs and other animals - The same method of extinction would work just fine for them too.

[Mista T]

Amen Losac......I used to work for a poultry company and those PETA imbeciles made me laugh.......all that aside, I hope Vick goes away long time.....

Sorry, but working in the poultry industry while criticizing Vick would be hypocritical. The poultry industry is one of the worst offenders for cruelty to animals. Chickens are hung upside down, electrocuted to stun them (often not effective), then scalded alive in boiling water to defeather them.

I also think that PETA is a joke -- but I can't connect the dots as to how it's OK to throw live chickens into boiling water then criticize Mike Vick for dog-fighting.



I'd put the life of my dog over the life of a lot of people I know.

Losac: I used to have a dog when I was a kid and felt an emotional bond as if he were a human. My first reaction to your statement was that it was how I would have felt as a kid, but now, as an adult, I realize that a dog's life cannot compare with a human. But then I started thinking about some humans who are such enemies to society that I'd sooner spare the life of the good dog, such as: Osama bin Laden, Michael Moore, Hugo Chávez.

[crazyraven]

Oh wow I didnt even think of bin Laden...So yea, I'd save a pitbull life before that jerkoff.

[psuasskicker]

but we are talking about pitbulls who will rip your heart out if they didnt have a muzzle on their mugs.

You and some others here (and everywhere really) clearly don't know a lot about pit bulls, and would be well served to do even a little bit of actual reading on the subject. Sorry if that's asking a little much...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull

Pit bulls are some of the most loyal animals on the planet. The problem of course is two-fold. First, as they're so loyal, if they have an owner who teaches them to attack, they'll do so without hesitation. Second, they're incredibly strong and have a high pain threshhold. Put the two together and you're naturally going to read more news stories about a pit bull attack than a poodle attack since the pit bull is more likely to maim its victim.

Problem is that it's 100% on the owner, and the pit bull is the one that gets the bad name. With their loyalty is the ability to be exceptionally loving. My neighbors who have a three year old and another on the way own one and I have no hesitation about letting my own kids play with their dog. He's incredibly loving and harmless other than the fact that he's much bigger than them so he'll sometimes knock them over when playing.

The pit bulls that attack mercilessly do so due to terrible owners mistreating them. They should be made to suffer worse than the dogs, since the dogs can't help themselves. They're completely a product of environment, they are NOT genetically predisposed to violence.

- C -

[birdbrain]

Mista T....please get your facts straight. Last I heard, people did not EAT pit bulls so your "hypocritical" theory is already out the window. Now, the birds are dipped in a bath to stun them before their throats are cut and birds are never scalded alive...never ever unless this is a low level operation in someone's backyard. If you are going to spout off, know what you are talking about before you do so....

[ravenmaniac]

You and some others here (and everywhere really) clearly don't know a lot about pit bulls, and would be well served to do even a little bit of actual reading on the subject. Sorry if that's asking a little much...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull

Pit bulls are some of the most loyal animals on the planet. The problem of course is two-fold. First, as they're so loyal, if they have an owner who teaches them to attack, they'll do so without hesitation. Second, they're incredibly strong and have a high pain threshhold. Put the two together and you're naturally going to read more news stories about a pit bull attack than a poodle attack since the pit bull is more likely to maim its victim.

Problem is that it's 100% on the owner, and the pit bull is the one that gets the bad name. With their loyalty is the ability to be exceptionally loving. My neighbors who have a three year old and another on the way own one and I have no hesitation about letting my own kids play with their dog. He's incredibly loving and harmless other than the fact that he's much bigger than them so he'll sometimes knock them over when playing.

The pit bulls that attack mercilessly do so due to terrible owners mistreating them. They should be made to suffer worse than the dogs, since the dogs can't help themselves. They're completely a product of environment, they are NOT genetically predisposed to violence.

- C -


THe problem is NOT 100% on the owner. I had an employee here who used to say the same thing. SHe had a pit bull and told me all the stuff about the bad reputation and that hers was lovable and loyal and then one day it just turned and attacked her 14 yr old. He was in the hospital getting multiple stitches. There are TONS of stories like this about these dogs. I wouldn't let my kids near them. Why in the world would someone with children not want to get a Lab instead?

[ravenmaniac]

from your wikipedia link...

Although friendliness and tolerance towards humans are traits of the breed, there are, as in any breed, those that are dangerous toward animals as well as humans. It is the owner's responsibility to be in total control of his dogs, and there are countless attacks that show just how unsuitable this breed is for some people.

Regardless of who he is, any owner of a pit bull must train the dog well. Lack of proper socialization can lead to a dog with aggressive tendencies towards humans, therefore completely against what the breed is about. Under the care of a overly permissive or uneducated owner, pit bulls can become very dangerous dogs.

[psuasskicker]

THe problem is NOT 100% on the owner. I had an employee here who used to say the same thing. SHe had a pit bull and told me all the stuff about the bad reputation and that hers was lovable and loyal and then one day it just turned and attacked her 14 yr old. He was in the hospital getting multiple stitches. There are TONS of stories like this about these dogs. I wouldn't let my kids near them. Why in the world would someone with children not want to get a Lab instead?

Dogs can have mental issues just like humans, and interestingly have different reactions to things they eat that can set them off. I have a friend who had two great danes that were very sweet dogs. One day a boy scout came to sell them something and the dogs attacked him out of nowhere. She had the dogs put down immediately. The vet told her to search her yard for acorns (which she later found all over the yard). Apparently some dogs, when they eat these, experience hallucinations and triggers a violent reaction.

Sh*t happens. It's not just the nature of the pit bull to simply attack for no reason. Sure it can happen seemingly at random. But you're fooling yourself if you think it's any more or less likely to happen with a particular breed simply because of the breed.

EXCEPTION: Some dogs when bred mixed can be born mentally messed up and more prone to attacking. These are mutts, not true pit bulls (or true whatever breed). I'm no expert so I can't say what types are more prone than others. Look it up if you need...

- C -

[ravenmaniac]

Dogs can have mental issues just like humans, and interestingly have different reactions to things they eat that can set them off. I have a friend who had two great danes that were very sweet dogs. One day a boy scout came to sell them something and the dogs attacked him out of nowhere. She had the dogs put down immediately. The vet told her to search her yard for acorns (which she later found all over the yard). Apparently some dogs, when they eat these, experience hallucinations and triggers a violent reaction.

Sh*t happens. It's not just the nature of the pit bull to simply attack for no reason. Sure it can happen seemingly at random. But you're fooling yourself if you think it's any more or less likely to happen with a particular breed simply because of the breed.

EXCEPTION: Some dogs when bred mixed can be born mentally messed up and more prone to attacking. These are mutts, not true pit bulls (or true whatever breed). I'm no expert so I can't say what types are more prone than others. Look it up if you need...

- C -


Sorry but you are just plain wrong if you think all breeds are the same and that one breed isn't more aggressive than others. Labrador retrievers does not equal pit bull. Period. Read your own wikipedia link and you'll see that these dogs MUST be trained the correct way NOT to just attack but to make them docile enough so they won't attack out of the blue. Read the number of countries who've banned them. Are all of these countries just filled with ignorant people who don't understand the breed?

[crazyraven]

Sh*t happens. It's not just the nature of the pit bull to simply attack for no reason.
Seriously if you have this type of mentality why the hell would you care if Vick is doing this to pitbulls, shit happens--as you put it.

RM is right you have to be major wacko if you had kids and brought a pitbull into your home.

I remember reading about a person who lived in an apartment and died by the teeth of a pitbull while she was walking up a flight a stairs. The stories are endless.


Pit bulls are some of the most loyal animals on the planet.
Get the fuck outta here with that crap.

[Mista T]

Mista T....please get your facts straight. Last I heard, people did not EAT pit bulls so your "hypocritical" theory is already out the window.

What's that have to do with the price of eggs? :229031_confused2: What difference does it make whether or not one eats the animal? Cruelty is cruelty. I maintain that poultry processing (for example) practices significantly more cruelty to animals than Mike Vick's dog fights.

Perhaps it's your conscience, trying to justify the animal cruelty that you participated in when working in the poultry industry???




Now, the birds are dipped in a bath to stun them before their throats are cut and birds are never scalded alive...never ever unless this is a low level operation in someone's backyard. If you are going to spout off, know what you are talking about before you do so....

Don't tell me about spouting off. And, unlike your mere arm-waving, I do back up my statements with facts. You may have been asleep or turned your head when live & concious chickens were thrown into scalding water at the plant where you worked. Or maybe just: :liar: :liar: :liar: :liar: :liar:

Animal cruelty is not limited to backyard operations, as you suggested, but includes the operations of major poultry processing firms. The poultry industry is notorious for its pervasive cruelty to animals -- yet I'll betcha that many of those calling for Mike Vick's head have no problem scarfing down a KFC! (Not that I defend Vick -- if found guilty of breaking laws, he should be punished by the league)

As you read the following, please refer to your statement "the birds are dipped in a bath to stun them before their throats are cut and birds are never scalded alive...never ever unless this is a low level operation in someone's backyard" .... read 'em & weep:


http://www.cok.net/camp/inv/perdue/press.php


Animal Rights Group Pursues Complaint Against Perdue Farms

POSTED: 4:19 pm EDT October 28, 2004


ANNAPOLIS, Md. -- An animal advocacy group is calling for prosecutors to press animal cruelty charges against Perdue Farms Inc., after an activist at a lower Eastern Shore plant secretly videotaped chickens flapping wildly after their throats were slit on a processing line.

An investigator for Takoma Park-based Compassion Over Killing worked from Sept. 16 to Oct. 1 at the processing plant in Showell, a complex that Perdue is closing next week to streamline operations. The animal rights group filed a complaint this week with the local sheriff and state's attorney's office.

"From the very first day our investigator worked, he saw animal cruelty on a regular basis," said Paul Shapiro, campaigns director for the nonprofit Compassion Over Killing.

The videotape shows piles of live chickens being shoved and thrown down a processing line. The birds' ankles are roughly slid onto shackles, leaving them hanging upside down as their throats are slit. Afterward, the cut birds flap wildly.

Birds are seen shackled incorrectly so that they miss the blade, leaving them to go through processing without losing consciousness. Dying birds are left lying on a conveyer belt and being piled onto each other in a bin while workers take lunch breaks.

Outside the plant, the worker filmed dying birds left stranded and stray birds that were left without food or water and died several hours later.

http://www.mercyforanimals.org/hor/


House of Raeford Farms, Inc. in Raeford, North Carolina. In January and February of 2007 an MFA investigator worked in the "live-hang" area of the plant (where live birds are snapped into shackles on the slaughter line), secretly filming egregious acts of animal cruelty with a hidden camera. Shocking abuses he witnessed include:

Turkeys with broken wings and legs, bloody open wounds, tumors and other untreated injuries being slaughtered for human consumption
A worker violently punching live, shackled turkeys for "fun"
Employees forcefully shoving their hands into the cloacae (vaginal cavities) of live chickens
Turkeys and chickens being thrown across the facility and up into the air
Workers ripping the heads off live turkeys
Birds being crushed to death under the wheels of trucks
Conscious turkeys having their throats slit


http://www.chooseveg.com/chickens-turkeys.asp


At the slaughterhouse, fully conscious chickens and turkeys are shackled by their ankles upside-down to a moving conveyor belt. The birds are then given intensely painful electric shocks[8], which are intended to immobilize them to make it easier to slit their throats.[9] The shocks are frequently not powerful enough to render them unconscious.[10] After being shocked, the birds’ throats are slashed, usually by a mechanical blade, and blood begins rushing out of their bodies.

Inevitably, the blade misses some birds who then proceed to the next station on the assembly line: the scalding tank. According to USDA statistics, millions of birds every year have their bodies submerged in scalding hot water (about 143° F) while they are fully conscious.[11,12,13] According to Virgil Butler, a former Tyson slaughterhouse worker, “When this happens, the chickens flop, scream, kick, and their eyeballs pop out of their heads. Then, they often come out the other end with broken bones and disfigured and missing body parts because they’ve struggled so much in the tank.”

[jonboy79]

All Pitbulls should be sterilized and be made extinct. As for the slime we are talking about, those who torture the dogs and other animals - The same method of extinction would work just fine for them too.


This MUST be a statement from someon who has never personally interacted with a "Bully Breed" dog. The Bully breeds, (Pit Bulls, Staffordshire Terriers, and English, American and French Bulldog's) are some of the most trainable, well mannerred and intelligent dogs around when trained correctly. I am around these types of dogs often and feel they are WONDERFUL dogs. I would put my little nephews and Niece in the room with most of those dogs I know in a heartbeat and not even pay close attention. The two most obedient and serving dogs I have ever come accross werfe a Pitbull and a Staffy. Neither needed a leash anywhere, would not even chase squirrells off leash. These dogs are gentle around Adults, Children, cats and MOST other dogs.
Dalmations and Poodles are far worse dogs. They may not have the shear strength to do the level of damge to someon or thing, but they are plain NASTY, untrainable dogs.

[psuasskicker]

Sorry but you are just plain wrong if you think all breeds are the same and that one breed isn't more aggressive than others. Labrador retrievers does not equal pit bull. Period. Read your own wikipedia link and you'll see that these dogs MUST be trained the correct way NOT to just attack but to make them docile enough so they won't attack out of the blue. Read the number of countries who've banned them. Are all of these countries just filled with ignorant people who don't understand the breed?

First off, it wasn't too long ago that african americans were slaves and women weren't allowed to vote in this country, so let's not just pretend that all countries are run by intelligent and well read people as opposed to people that simply react to stereotypes.

Second, you're pretty grossly misrepresenting what the link actually says. It doesn't say "these dogs MUST be trained the correct way NOT to just attack". It in fact says:

Pit bulls are not bred for dog aggression. Pit bulls, as with any dog, can be aggressive if they are mistreated. The pit bull should be treated with care...

Pit bulls are basically hardwired to listen to their owners. This makes training extremely easy. However, it must also be said that if an owner trains his pit bull to attack humans, it will do so without hesitation. They thrive on pleasing their owners, no matter what the cost. And while their attacks aren't among the vast majority, they are more dangerous because of the breed's tenacity. They do a very high tolerance to pain.

...Although friendliness and tolerance towards humans are traits of the breed, there are, as in any breed, those that are dangerous toward animals as well as humans. It is the owner's responsibility to be in total control of his dogs, and there are countless attacks that show just how unsuitable this breed is for some people.

Regardless of who he is, any owner of a pit bull must train the dog well. Lack of proper socialization can lead to a dog with aggressive tendencies towards humans, therefore completely against what the breed is about. Under the care of a overly permissive or uneducated owner, pit bulls can become very dangerous dogs.

Nowhere in there does it say the pit bull has to be trained to not simply attack. Any dog of any breed can in fact become aggressive without proper socialization. I bolded a part that notes that there are those that can be dangerous, however that's true with ANY breed.


Seriously if you have this type of mentality why the hell would you care if Vick is doing this to pitbulls, shit happens--as you put it.

You're an idiot, so I'm not really sure why I'm responding to this, but it's absolutely moronic. I literally have no idea what you're talking about, why you think this, or how you can draw the inferences you're trying to draw. You obviously have no facts and are making your judgements based solely on media reports you've heard talking about pit bull attacks.

Guys, if you want to have an actual discussion stating facts, I'm more than happy to continue. But I'm done with this if the best you can do is "You're stupid cause I just know that pit bulls aren't safe cause of X story I heard somewhere from someone."

- C -

[crazyraven]

You're an idiot, so I'm not really sure why I'm responding to this, but it's absolutely moronic
Good stuff. You say "Shit happens" if a pit bull attacks someone and I'm the idiot. This place is really goofy at times :eyes:


But I'm done with this if the best you can do is "You're stupid cause I just know that pit bulls aren't safe cause of X story I heard somewhere from someone."
Of course your done and Why wouldn't you be. Those fucking dogs are the scum of the earth. The devils pet if you will. There are news stories about this type of shit with pit bulls every day, why would you want to fight with facts. Don't come here trying to snow us with Webopedia "Facts".. Please stop that Bullshit...and please stop your "they are lovable, trainable dogs" is the biggest pile of horseshit since Kevin Millar did Rays dance on opening day. Those dogs are vicious, period.

[Losac]

There are news stories about this type of shit with pit bulls every day
Exaggerate much?

Your entire opinion on pit bulls being "the scum of the earth" comes from news articles you hear about or read. You have NO firsthand experience with a pitbull. This means your opinion is relatively meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Next.

[crazyraven]

You have NO firsthand experience with a pitbull.

Actually I do. a friend of mine owned one back in NYC and while he was at work the piece of shit tore his entire house up while he was out. The thing was too agressive. Before the incident He had to put the thing in a cage when people came over otherwise he'd start sniffing balls and jumping on people.

Even So...Now I need to be next to one to make a judgement about them. Fuck that. Keep in mind these are news articles that are in every newspaper/TV News station across the nation. if you dont except the news as fact especially when it continues to happen then you are just not excepting the facts as they are presented to you. For christs sakes they have videos of these bastards running after people and chewing on there limbs. if you want to be part of the "Not my pitbull" Crowd- fine -but its just a matter of time before you or a friend gets bitten by one of them. And when it happens Id be happy to be the first to say I told you so.

[jonboy79]

Actually I do. a friend of mine owned one back in NYC and while he was at work the piece of shit tore his entire house up while he was out. The thing was too agressive. Before the incident He had to put the thing in a cage when people came over otherwise he'd start sniffing balls and jumping on people.


I'm sure only pitbulls exhibit this form of behavior.... oh wait, nearly every dog I have ever seen wants to jump up towards incoming peopel, UNTIL THEY ARE TRAINED NOT TO. Also, dogs that are not able to behave themselves when the owner is away usually are either trained not to, or simply are locked up when the owner is not available for supervision.

BTW, it sounds like your freind was a horrible owner that gives these dogs their bad name. Maybe if he had spent some time training and giving attention to his dog it wouldn't feel the need to act out. But hey, it must be the breed of dog right?

[crazyraven]

Jon and that's the thing he was a good owner he had him for years but it never got better. He even took him to obedient school. He tried but it just wasnt working out. My friend has a heart of gold when it comes to animals.

[Losac]

Actually I do. a friend of mine owned one back in NYC and while he was at work the piece of shit tore his entire house up while he was out. The thing was too agressive. Before the incident He had to put the thing in a cage when people came over otherwise he'd start sniffing balls and jumping on people.

Oh man, the dog jumped on people and sniffed them when they came over! Never heard of a dog doing that before!

Most dogs get bored and restless if they are left alone and often resort to destructive behavior around the house. My beagle does it all the time. And when people come over he constantly sniffs them and wants to play. They need to be trained not to do this (or at least listen when told to stop doing it).

The news loves certain kinds of stories, crazy, and will greenlight them no matter what. Teachers sleeping with students, whatever Paris Hilton is up to, and dogs mauling kids are things the a-hole reporters and news directors love. If you listened to just the news you'd think you'd get shot on any corner in all of Baltimore city too, but that's just one side of things.

[jonboy79]

Jon and that's the thing he was a good owner he had him for years but it never got better. He even took him to obedient school. He tried but it just wasnt working out. My friend has a heart of gold when it comes to animals.

It's really quite simple. Get a pinch collar, not a choke chain, but a pinch collar. When someone comes to the door, put his collar and leash on. Step on the leash with enough slack to allow him to stand normally and comfortably, but not lift his head above the top of his back. As he lifts to jump, he will feel a correction. It will take him some time to learn, but eventually the collar would not be required and the dog would visit each new guest calmly and with a bowed head.

Dogs act out from lack of attention. Destroying things in your home comes from NOTHING but additional need for attention. Perhaps his dog's thirst outgrew your freinds heart of gold, or more simply, work schedule.

[psuasskicker]

There are news stories about this type of shit with pit bulls every day

1) Prove it.
2) Show me in those stories where it talks about how great and loving an owner they had.

Every pit bull attack story I've ever seen - which is once a year or less for the last five or so years - has come with some dbag owner who either abused or neglected the dog. But you've got all the facts, and should have about 30 stories from the last month you should be pretty easily able to show us. Hell, I'll go easy on you. Show me five from 2007 about a rampant pit bull attack where they didn't have a scumbag owner and I'll apologize.

All I've done is read up a good bit on them and have discussions with owners as well as my aunt and uncle who are kennel owners and dog breeders. Stupid me missed that guy who's dog tore his apt apart and sniffs other people's nuts...first time I've ever heard of a dog doing anything like that...

- C -

[crazyraven]

There were about 4 or 5 attacks with in the last 48 hours.

With out further ado here they are.


Wyatt, who lives about a block from the scene in the 1100 block of Mountain Street, said he was asleep at the time and had no idea that the dogs had escaped from his yard.
http://ktla.trb.com/news/ktla-dogattack,0,6893540.story?coll=ktla-news-2

here is some poor schlub who probably said "Not my pit bull" and got arrested after his bulls had to be gunned down by the po-lice. Guess you'll say he shouldn't sleep when he has a pit bulls because he not loving them enough.

But ok since you don't want to believe this story how about I give you this one.


Five-year-old Kaya Porter was excited to go upstairs yesterday and visit her neighbor's new pit bull puppies. But after an attempt to pet the dogs, the girl was bitten in the face by the adult female, which apparently was protecting its 3-day-old litter, Boston police and witnesses said.

We all know how precious those fucking pit bull litters are, Hands off Kaya or you'll lose the left side of you fucking face. oops sorry you already got bit.

"
The way she was raised she is not violent," a tearful Wiggins said.

Dude this is still less than a 20 hour old story.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/07/19/pit_bull_bites_girl_5_reaching_to_pat_pup/

here is another


Two boys were walking a pit bull across the street,” Burwell said. “Patsy was sniffing the grass and the pit bull slipped off the leash. Patsy is real passive so she didn’t see it coming.
http://www.indeonline.com/index.php?ID=18294&r=0&Category=

Some in this crowd wanted to put this dog down with a gun.

here is another one


"About 10 minutes out, I saw a small female pit bull in a field, and she didn't look dangerous. I looked at her but I thought she's not going to bother me, and then before I knew it, this dog was underneath my horse. And at the time, I didn't know it, but she had bitten her between the front legs and that caused Cuervo to obviously completely wig out. So she's rearing, she's bucking, she's spinning, she was able to kick the dog once -- stunned it, but I think it was just enough to irritate it and it came back at us even stronger. All I could think of is, 'I'm gonna go off, I'm gonna break my neck.' You know it was horrifying," Lindgren said
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=local&id=5494193


Dude seriously this next one is no joke although it would seem to be


The pit bull, a 2-year-old family pet named Bear, reportedly sodomized the toddler in a Washburn Street apartment on July 8. The boy remains at Women’s and Children’s Hospital in Buffalo, where he underwent surgery following the attack

http://www.lockportjournal.com/local/local_story_199144245.html

Check this out...its a mail man story...there is also a nice clip of the dog walking the owner

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/13716286/detail.html

Honestly there are more.I just hit the google news section and typed in pit bull and got all these stories about how lovable and trainable these dogs can be. Didnt take long to compile this.

Many of these dogs are roaming the streets because people are unwilling to kill them and probrably let them go (at some of these stories alude to that). they are becoming an epodemic to certain towns or cities. Scary shit. Whats even scarier is when you trust a friend who will tell you the dog wont attack yet they do.


Show me five from 2007 about a rampant pit bull attack where they didn't have a scumbag owner and I'll apologize
Lets see if you keep your word.

[ClericBlackDave]

T,


The difference between slauterhouses and what happened with this dog fighting incident is that we need slauterhouses to live as a race.


I believe the primary rule in mother nature is simply to survive. I dont blame us for breeding animals for food, or for killing these animals in an efficient way.


These pit bulls at "Bad Newz Kennels" didn't need to be trained to kill or executed by electrocution or hanging for anyone to survive. This makes it particularly inhumane and wrong.


I dont blame the animals in that particular case, they are just doing what they are taught, and also are trying to survive.


Vick and his dumba$$ friends are to blame, and no one else. The cruelty was unnecessary and there was no substantive benefit to animals deaths other than entertainment of the worst sort.


Crazy Ravens opinion of Pitt Bulls doesn't bother me, becuase they're a problematic breed. They, and some othe breeds like Pugs, should not be allowed to mate and should just be allowed to naturally die off.


However, Crazy Raven's thought that the animals sometimes violent nature makes fighting them ok is absurb.


Dog fighting is particularly wrong in the sense that someone is being entertained by the suffering of animals that is unnecesary.


What happens in slaughter house, I would not be entertained. However, I wouldn't stop it either because I need to eat, we as a people need to survive.

[crazyraven]

However, Crazy Raven's thought that the animals sometimes violent nature makes fighting them ok is absurb.

You're absurd! I never 'thought" its was "OK". These dogs are a problem, a huge one. As i have pointed out they will attack even when unprovoked and usually, like a wild beast, attack our young. What happens to them, I simply don't care. If it has been reported that a Doberman or a German Shepard were pitted against each other in these fights I would and have become enraged and have a more vested interest in what happens to the men who perpetrated these actions. For clarity I just dont give a crap Dave.

HOWEVER Unlike CBD and HIS thoughts on pugs I don't want to see them dead. that seems way to harsh for me to put a dog out for no reason. Pugs are actually kind loyal and obedient pets unlike the man eating put pit bull.

[Mista T]

T,


The difference between slauterhouses and what happened with this dog fighting incident is that we need slauterhouses to live as a race.

This is going way OT, but I have to address that comment -- then I'll get out of this discussion. We don't need slaughterhouses to survive as a race. To the contrary, consumption of animals, particularly in the US, is much more harmful to our race, e.g. saturated fat caused heart attacks, excessive land use, depletion of water supplies, etc. I haven't had food coming from slaughterhouses in 15 years, and I'm healthier than before. Devouring animals is a preference, but it's not necessary for survival. Just like Mike Vick's & friends had a preference for dog fighting. Neither activity is necessary, and both involve cruelty to animals.

btw: Mike Vick is innocent until proven guilty.

[highwater]

This whole running debate about the pros and cons of pit bulls are beside the point, as far as what Vick and his posse have being charged with. I can assure you that Vick's lawyers aren't going to use as a defense in court, "Well, it was okay to electrocute, hang, drown them and train them to fight each other, because they're just pit bulls." Regardless of what you think of pit bulls or dogs in general, that sort of behavior can't be excused. There is a reason it's a felony.

[Losac]

I can assure you that Vick's lawyers aren't going to use as a defense in court, "Well, it was okay to electrocute, hang, drown them and train them to fight each other, because they're just pit bulls."

Funny, that's exactly the kind of defense crazyraven is supporting.

[Rochardrik]

A dog is a dumb animal, Ok maybe they'll fetch your slippers and shit but for the most part they dont really matter in the grand scheme of life.

SOme of these guys who are struggling trying to make ends meet get caught up in this line of work because of their situations. Unfortuantely there is a demand for this type of entertainment (throw in cock fighting too) that people are will to pay big money and they are willing to provide. Its rampant in Baltimore and Virginia. People are doing it. Would I pay to see this or gamble on it....FUCK NO. but we are talking about pitbulls who will rip your heart out if they didnt have a muzzle on their mugs.

Just a few months ago we were talking about this and I spoke about how there is always a story in the paper about these fuckers tearing into a small boy or something. A few months later I show a band new story with out even having to break a sweat to find http://www.kten.com/Global/story.asp?S=6802966
Theydon't matter in the grand scheme of life?
This might be the dumbest thing I have EVER Heard. Dogs have been bred and trained to be a part of almost every endeavor known to man! How uneducated are you? There would be NO human life in the artic region without dogs. Dogs have been trained to hunt poachers on estates(bull mastiff). They have been trained, and have instincts that compel them to not let a human drown(newfoundlands). St. Bernards rescue lost skiiers. Countless different dogs were trained to ferret out game for hunters. They herd sheep, cattle and other livestock. They are trained as seeing eye companions for the sightless. They pull sleds, wagons, guard with their lives our children. Man, are you a COMPLETE moron, or just a Jacka**?:insane: :hammer: :rolling:

[Rochardrik]

This is going way OT, but I have to address that comment -- then I'll get out of this discussion. We don't need slaughterhouses to survive as a race. To the contrary, consumption of animals, particularly in the US, is much more harmful to our race, e.g. saturated fat caused heart attacks, excessive land use, depletion of water supplies, etc. I haven't had food coming from slaughterhouses in 15 years, and I'm healthier than before. Devouring animals is a preference, but it's not necessary for survival. Just like Mike Vick's & friends had a preference for dog fighting. Neither activity is necessary, and both involve cruelty to animals.

btw: Mike Vick is innocent until proven guilty.

Eating meat may not be a necessity, but meat eaters live longer. It is also theorized that eating meat jump-started our evolution process, and without it we may still be in the early bipedal stages of evolution, or not exist. Slaughterhouses are not a pretty thought or sight, but with the world population being what it is, we can no longer raise and, or hunt all our own protein!:rolleyes:

[psuasskicker]

I just had a whole huge response typed out and get deleted by IE shutting down. I'm not retyping. The point was, CR, you showed me two articles showing irresponsible owners, one where a pit nipped a kid protecting her litter which happens all the time, and two with pits attacking other animals and apparently not having owners to train.

I'll grant you that pits are dangerous if they aren't trained properly or socialized properly (I think I already did that though). But do you really think that pits are the only dog that without training and socialization will attack people? Do you walk up and pet a stray lab but run away from a stray pit? Cause that'd be pretty stupid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_attack

Even dogs considered to be "family-friendly", such as Golden Retrievers, are capable of biting a child. A parent would rarely leave a child alone with an unknown pitbull, but people forget that even a cute dog is still a dog. Just because a dog typically has a good temperament does not mean that it is safe to leave a child alone with it. ....

It is extremely difficult to establish the inherent human aggressiveness of a breed in general.

Naturally a pit is going to be more likely to severely injure a person in an attack than say a pomeranian (I've been bitten by extremely well trained poms for trying to pet their pups).

Do a Google news search on "dog attack". When I did it a couple minutes back, of the 10 articles it brought up, only two were of pit attacks. Read that again...8 of 10 were attacks by dogs other than pits. They included a border collie, mastiffs (usually mutts), alsatian, etc.

- C -

[Mista T]

Eating meat may not be a necessity, but meat eaters live longer.

Your joking! :261695:

There are numerous studies that say otherwise. Especially with regard to Americans' high saturated fat intake and atherosclerosis. Google "vegetarian life expectency". (btw: I'm not a vegetarian, but I limit my meat intake to seafood, preferably wild salmon. I had major bypass surgery years ago.).

But don't trust Google: ask your doctor.

[jonboy79]

First of all, letting a 5 year old girl, go up to a 2 day old litter is the problem, not the Mother dog protecting her pups from the UNDOUBTED pulling and prodding.
2nd of all, as stated previously, yes a pitbull is prone to doing more damage when it does bite, that is a fact. They are simply no more likely to bite then any other dog, environment being equal. As noted in:
http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/danger.htm
To quote a site providing info for bite VICTIMS and hwo to persue legal action

"Breed-specific laws were enacted because, in the past, courts and legislatures considered it to be a "well-known fact" that pit bulls are "unpredictable," "vicious" creatures owned only by "drug dealers, dog fighters, gang members," or other undesirable members of society. [Citing State v. Anderson (1991), 57 Ohio St.3d 168.] ... As scientific information advances and becomes available, courts have a duty to reconsider issues and make decisions which are supported by the actual evidence presented, instead of relying on "common knowledge" and opinion generated by newspaper sensationalism and hearsay, rather than accurate, scientific evidence. [Par.] As the evidence presented in this case demonstrates, previous cases involving "vicious dog" laws, especially from the late 1980's and early 1990's, relied on what is now outdated information which perpetuated a stereotypical image of pit bulls. ... The trial court noted that all the animal behaviorists from both parties testified that a pit bull, trained and properly socialized like other dogs, would not exhibit any more dangerous characteristics than any other breed of dog. After considering all the evidence before it, the trial court agreed, finding that pit bulls, as a breed, are not more dangerous than other breeds."

The court then stated that,

Our review of the record reveals no current statistics since 1996 were presented to support the notion that pit bulls have continued to be involved in a "disproportionate number" of attacks or fatalities. In our view, despite its own factual finding to the contrary, the trial court improperly relied on an outdated, irrelevant, and inadmissible source of factual information to revive the "vicious" pit bull sentiment and justify the finding that the statutes and ordinance are constitutional"

MOst "pitbull" attacks are not even that. When a person gets bittene they assume that it's a pitbull... that's the legend, perhaps due to the dogfighting phenomenon.
Look, noone here is sayign Pits don't bite, that would be ridiculous. ALL DOGS BITE. Pits simply make better news.

You are simply seperating Nature and Nuture here, and youa re on the wrong side. If you are going to play only one side of that argument, you'd be a fool not to support the NUrture side. A dog's environment matters 100 fold over it's breed when determining the propensity to bite.

[psuasskicker]

http://www.murrayco.com/forum/bell_curve.jpg

- C -

[highwater]

Funny, that's exactly the kind of defense crazyraven is supporting.

I'm not surprised -- need I say more? :insane:

[crazyraven]

I can assure you that Vick's lawyers aren't going to use as a defense in court, "Well, it was okay to electrocute, hang, drown them and train them to fight each other, because they're just pit bulls."


Originally Posted by Losac
Funny, that's exactly the kind of defense crazyraven is supporting.

Who here has said its OK to do those things? The only thing I have supported was not giving a shit what happened to these ferocious animals, period.

You guys (HW and Losac) are funny the way you twist things around.

[crazyraven]

Do you walk up and pet a stray lab but run away from a stray pit? Cause that'd be pretty stupid.
Petting a stray? WTF. Please. I'd call the animal control before I put my hands on a dirty animal. In any event I think the difference is that the pit will come to you and attack before a Lab would. I'm not saying the stray lab wouldnt but if that Pit was hungry, you can bet it would take its chances if you got close enough. Look you obviously are a animal lover. I showed example after example with stories that took place within a 48 hour window and your defense is that its just news worthy. You asked for a Year. You ask for proof, I gave it, You promised an apology, you gave me excuses. You are refusing to except the facts as reality and you are trying to humanize a killer dog, my friend, that's kinda of stupid.



But do you really think that pits are the only dog that without training and socialization will attack people?
Of course other breeds will attack. No question about that. But the difference is in the bite, the pitbulls jaw and teeth are insanely strong and do far more damage then if a lab went after someone.

[AZRAVEN]

You obviously are an animal hater CR so why bother even spreading your venom as there are far more animal lovers in the world than animal haters ~ thank God. All animals are not dirty or dumb and all animals will bite for reasons that make perfect sense to them and are usually because some dumb human has scared, threatened or hurt them. As far as what breed is most likely to bite it is actually usually the smaller breeds ~ ask any postal worker.

[Ravensman]

The whole process of baiting is just sickening, blinded to get the main eventers ready to fight. Hanging, drowning rape stands. Mike Vick is a f'cking lowlife. I disgagree respectfully T meat provides essential protiens and consequently amino acids. These animals (dangerous pit bulls but also innocent bait dogs) were slaughtered so Vick and his c'ock sucking friends could have fun. Im no peta man I gave a speech mocking Peta 2 years ago but go on google and search "Mike Vick Dog" see the poor dogs face rip

[Ravensman]

ripped to shreds or the 30+ carcuses found so some jackasses could have fun. It doesnt matter if a dog is more dangerous or not Vick plays God and wastes life, to hear him thank God in a presser is a joke in itself. When this fcker's convicvted I hope some prisoner shows him a taste of his own medacine. Mind you this is the same herpe spreading charactor with a weed flavoured waterbottle. Though as a pre law student I must say innocent untill proven guilty.

[ClericBlackDave]

This is going way OT, but I have to address that comment -- then I'll get out of this discussion. We don't need slaughterhouses to survive as a race. To the contrary, consumption of animals, particularly in the US, is much more harmful to our race, e.g. saturated fat caused heart attacks, excessive land use, depletion of water supplies, etc. I haven't had food coming from slaughterhouses in 15 years, and I'm healthier than before. Devouring animals is a preference, but it's not necessary for survival. Just like Mike Vick's & friends had a preference for dog fighting. Neither activity is necessary, and both involve cruelty to animals.

btw: Mike Vick is innocent until proven guilty.


Innoncent until proven guilty in the court of law. Thats where it counts, but lets not take it further than that. I can have an opinion that he's guilty and be personally 100% sure, its just that I couldn't take the law into my own hands.


Innocent until proven guilty is a legal concept. Metaphysically, you're either innocent or guilty, and "proving" anything has nothing to do with anything besides what rights society has to take retribution against you.



In terms of slaughterhouses, I disagree. Mass food is necessary for the human race to continue as it has. Its nice that you, as probably an upper to middle class person has the ability and the desire to choose a "healthier" or perhaps to you more "Moral" eating lifestyle is fine, but that isn't the default human condition.



The fact is, dog fighting is purely for entertainment, a death sport that is not necessary for our survival, and the dogs didn't consent to become that way, or to die.


The idea that a losing dog that isn't really dead yet gets honor of Vick or some other sociopath beating the living hell out of it until its dead, or being electrocuted or hung, etc is, to me, wrong. Its unnecessary loss of life and inflicting of pain/suffering w/o any tangible benefit other than entertainment.


They way they execute these dogs is sociopathic.


It it was just about the dogs fighting eachother, fine. But they are trained to be violent, and then often times killed, not by the other dog, but by some sociopathic thugs who is probably taking a sick pleasure in what he's doing.

[jonboy79]

How abotu crabs and lobsters. Put to a slow hot death. Isn't that cruel too? Isn't anyoen going to use that parrallel?

[Art-Florida]

The thing that sickens me most about all this is hearing that they use poor defenseless creatures to inflame the dogs.

To take a rabbit, or a cat, or whatever, and then declaw it and/or blind it so it is truly helpless, and then toss it in to be torn to shreds by maddened Pitbulls....this is beyond cruel. This is on a level with many of the freaky things the S.S. did to people in the experiments lab. Maybe worse. At least the people had some idea what was happening and why.

Any so-called human being who indulges in activities like this first needs to be neutered-immediately. Let's get THOSE genes out of the pool. I am against the death penalty, even for scum like this, but I hear Devil's Island is available...

[Greg]

Ted, while I understand your take on the cruelty to those chickens and I think all should be done to make the process as humane as possible, I don't think many at Perdue or other processing plants are doing this for sport or entertainment.

There is a mega-huge difference. Yes, maybe these people are careless and abuse these chickens, but they aren't doing it for laughs.

I have a beagle, with small children I wouldn't want a pitbull or rotweiller only because their jaw strength is twice or more what any other dog's is. The tempermant of the dog varies with any breed based on their environment, but with these dogs if they attack you are in a lot more danger.

[ClericBlackDave]

Bottom line is that cruelty for entertainment is extremely abhorrent. Cruelty involved in food processing may be bad also, but I think we have a need to consume food.


Futhermore I think its absurd to equate alleged "cruelty" in slaugtherhouses to dog fighting. Perhaps both are wrong, T. Maybe. But they're definitely not equally wrong.


Entertainment at the expense of the suffering of another being is crazy and sociopathic, in my honest opinion.

[TheExtraPoint]

Bottom line is that cruelty for entertainment is extremely abhorrent. Cruelty involved in food processing may be bad also, but I think we have a need to consume food.


Futhermore I think its absurd to equate alleged "cruelty" in slaugtherhouses to dog fighting. Perhaps both are wrong, T. Maybe. But they're definitely not equally wrong.


Entertainment at the expense of the suffering of another being is crazy and sociopathic, in my honest opinion.

Couldn't agree more -

I wrote a long response to T's initial post, then decided not to get involved. But since others have keyed in on my main point, I'll follow up.

First, I think you have to be able to discern the difference between cruelty as a happenstance and unfortunate result of mass-processing of poultry for human sustenance, versus the utter disregard for life strictly at the expense of entertainment. THAT is a very, very important distinction in my view.

But furthermore, if you chose to equate the two - and as you said yourself, T, cruelty is cruelty - then you need to have the same level of objection to BOTH crimes, not just one. BOTH are wrong!

Personally, I'm especially offended by dog-fighting when I consider that the only reason it takes place is to appease the bloodthirsty appetites of a group of thugs across the country that enjoy this sickening stuff. And we are all entitled to be offended at different levels by different crimes, in this case against animals.

But even if you feel differently, hopefully you will at least find that both are fully and entirely objectionable and grotesque abuses. No worse, no better on a criminal or moral level.

It's not to say that the way poultry is processed in this country is good or even at the level of acceptable. But just because chickens are being treated inhumanly in a great number of plants across the country doesn't mean that what Mike Vick and his band of thugs are doing is OK, or less bad even.

Quite the contrary, BOTH of these abhorrent crimes should be addressed, the perpetrators punished, and the practices we speak of abolished.

And I applaud you for abstaining from poultry because of your objection to how it is processed. That's a bold move, one that has paid dividends in your life and your health. Beyond that, however, I can't agree with your reasoning at all T, although I do agree with the rest of your post. Vick's toast - won't play another snap in the league. I actually had this belief months ago before this indictment. The writing has been on the wall ever since his name was linked to this case.

And I do hope that from this, very noble groups in the world like the Humane Society of the United States can springboard this very public display of abuse into the eradication of animal cruelty on an even larger scale. That would be good for all of society.

That's my slant.

[psuasskicker]

In any event I think the difference is that the pit will come to you and attack before a Lab would. I'm not saying the stray lab wouldnt but if that Pit was hungry, you can bet it would take its chances if you got close enough.

Yeah, the problem is that you're basing this on nothing except your own prejudice and stories you hear in the media. You're wrong, and I have no idea how to prove it to you cause it's like talking to a brick wall...you're not willing to listen to facts, you just know best.


Look you obviously are a animal lover. I showed example after example with stories that took place within a 48 hour window and your defense is that its just news worthy. You asked for a Year. You ask for proof, I gave it, You promised an apology, you gave me excuses.

I told you to find them for me where the dog didn't have a deadbeat owner. You gave me some where there were strays, so I granted you that point. You still haven't given me what I've been looking for, which is to show that a pit that's trained well and socialized is any more likely to attack a human than any other breed.


Of course other breeds will attack. No question about that. But the difference is in the bite, the pitbulls jaw and teeth are insanely strong and do far more damage then if a lab went after someone.

So what? Do you want to exterminate all elephants because they're so large that they'll crush a human if they run them over? That's a pretty stupid point, cause if you simply killed off all animals based on nothing other than how much damage they CAN do to humans...well, you get the point.


The thing that sickens me most about all this is hearing that they use poor defenseless creatures to inflame the dogs.

I agree completely. People that do this are disgusting, and I wish upon them the same fate they allow these animals to face.


I have a beagle, with small children I wouldn't want a pitbull or rotweiller only because their jaw strength is twice or more what any other dog's is. The tempermant of the dog varies with any breed based on their environment, but with these dogs if they attack you are in a lot more danger.

FWIW, I completely agree and understand this point. I don't feel the same way obviously, but understand those that do.

The difference being that CR's advocating exterminating the breed, vs. just saying he doesn't want one.

- C -

[crazyraven]

The difference being that CR's advocating exterminating the breed, vs. just saying he doesn't want one.
HUH? Exterminating? I'm a peaceful guy. I love animals when they are domesticated. If a pit bull could be domesticated I wouldn't have a problem.

I think that is where we differ.

Right now I say Put them in the wild where they belong, you know with the elephants. Who will crack your head open if given the chance.

[ClericBlackDave]

The issue here, really, isn't what to do with Pitbulls, although that's an interesting question. To be honest, I would let the Breed die out, but thats a personal opinion. I would do the same to Pugs and some other breeds too.


However, the question is what is morally permissible to do other other beings, including animals.


And I think its obvious that it should not be morally permissible to seek entertainment and enjoyment at the expense of servere cruelty and suffering of another being.


No one is in slaughterhouses (that I know of) watching the machines go and betting on it. I dont even want to see what goes on there. So if there is a level of suffering that occurs there, I apologize, but I dont think its morally reprehensible because we do it for the sake of mass production of food.


Would it be any better if I was back on my farm in Alabama (where some of my family comes from) and to eat I beheaded a chicken to kill it, and it ran around with its head cutoff and blood squirting everywhere? I mean, that sounds REAL humane (obv. not) but conversely, I'm doing it to survive.


The dogfighting is superfluous and unneeded.


Final thing I'll say, i have no problem with the idea that you could have food out there with cat meat, or dog meat, or horse meat. Not my 1st choice, but conversely i'm not ranking which animals should or shouldn't be eaten or not, it just happens that as a race we've chosen aparently that chickens and pigs and cows taste the best, are easy to raise, etc. If we switch to eating cats and dogs, whatever, so long as we're eating it, its not great but its something we do to survive.

[purplepoe]

Just back from my honeymoon.

All this stuff broke while I was away although I wasn't near a PC much I did follow it on TV.

Let me start by saying I don't like dogs. I've never owned one and never will. My wife (man that sounds weird) wants one and I refuse.

That said, dog fighting is one sick and twisted crime. This whole tangent about if pit bulls are dangerous etc.... is not the point. Not even close. These dogs don't choose to be hung upside down by their jaws to strengthen them. They don't choose to get into a small ring and fight to the death because the dog in front of them is trained to do the same.

I for one don't care to be near those things at any time, even if the owner is present and has trained the dog well.

However, fighting them to the death, then killing them by electricuion (sp?), hanging, throwing to the ground, and even by shooting them is incredibly cruel.

But what's more stunning is the fact that a guy with a contract and endorsements as rich as Vick is potentially throwing that all away because he (allegedly) wanted to throw a few bucks (tens of thousands in his world) to watch and participate in something this sick and twisted. Then again, I guess Im not surprised. Not in this day and age when every other week another athlete is getting arrested for something.

Again, however you view a pit bull is really irrelavent when talking about what humans do to them. There are countless dangerous animals on this planet. That doesn't mean they should be tortured and killed. And it also doesn't mean that just because they are dangerous that it's a lesser offense to do such things to them.

PP

[RustonRifle]

Vick and his boys should get the same treatment they gave the dogs.
Electrocution, beatings, euthanization, no punishment is good enough for these scumbags.

[Losac]

Who here has said its OK to do those things? The only thing I have supported was not giving a shit what happened to these ferocious animals, period.

You guys (HW and Losac) are funny the way you twist things around.
What? You completely contradict yourself. On one hand you say it's not ok to do the things Vick allegedly did, and then you say you don't care what happens to pit bulls because they are the "scum of the earth". Which is it?

[crazyraven]

On one hand you say it's not ok to do the things Vick allegedly did, and then you say you don't care what happens to pit bulls because they are the "scum of the earth".
Obviously if convicted and proven guilty Vick will serve a lot of time in jail and I would agree with the ruling. What else would you like me to do or say? Knock yourself out and Go out and protest with ban number 7 signs and ask for Vick to be removed from the NFL.

We have a war going on, so sorry if my heart isnt going out to your pitbulls instead of the brave soldiers who are defending my country.

[festivus]

Very well said, PP.

[Losac]

We have a war going on, so sorry if my heart isnt going out to your pitbulls instead of the brave soldiers who are defending my country.

Oh for God's sake...:eyes:

[festivus]

Losac, how you can have spent 4 pages :brickwall: is beyond me. I respect you for the effort. :toast:

[Losac]

Losac, how you can have spent 4 pages :brickwall: is beyond me. I respect you for the effort. :toast:
Sometimes a slow day at work brings out the argumentative side of me. :thumbup:

[ClericBlackDave]

What in does the war in Iraq have to do with dogfighting?


That has to be the more retarded link I've ever heard made. You and President Bush should get together and figure out some more ways to link Iraq to 9/11, or some other nonsensical links.


The problem with the dog fighting is that its sociopathic to have entertainment or enjoyment at the unnecessary expense of another being's suffering.


Same sort of behavior / mentality is how you have serial murderers and rapists, people who enjoy sick entertainment and pleasure at the expense of other's suffering.


Its a sick sport, and a sick idea of executing and basically torturing these dogs.

[camdenyard]

The problem with the dog fighting is that its sociopathic to have entertainment or enjoyment at the unnecessary expense of another being's suffering.

Um, dogs aren't beings. But I agree with the premise.

Vick is going down, and hard.

[Rochardrik]

Your joking! :261695:

There are numerous studies that say otherwise. Especially with regard to Americans' high saturated fat intake and atherosclerosis. Google "vegetarian life expectency". (btw: I'm not a vegetarian, but I limit my meat intake to seafood, preferably wild salmon. I had major bypass surgery years ago.).

But don't trust Google: ask your doctor.

There are NOT numerous studies that say otherwise. You have been hornswaggled! No-one said fatty meat! There is lean meat ya know!

[ClericBlackDave]

There are NOT numerous studies that say otherwise. You have been hornswaggled! No-one said fatty meat! There is lean meat ya know!


What does this have to do with dog fighting again? This seems like a thread hijack, which is why it bothers me most.


T, obviously you're entitled to your opinions on food processing and what food to eat. But really, like PurplePoe said, many of these side arguments have nothing to do with the inhumanity that Vick and his thugs friends have displayed and cruelty the dogs in question have gone through.


Vick deserves whats coming to him once its proven he's guilty.

[festivus]

Vick is going down, and hard.

Truth.

People who remember cases crumbling against Steve McNair, and Ray Lewis, and Duke lacrosse players, and think that might happen here, are overlooking one MAJOR distinction.

These are federal charges. And the Feds don't charge you unless they've *got* you.

[Fanman]

Killing any animal for sport is just absurd and barbaric IMO. I don't care if it's hunting or dog fighting. It just happens to be that what Vick is accused of is a felony and the difference is making defenseless animals suffer. Although I don't condone hunting I do not think most hunters want the animal to suffer as part of the activity. I have friends that hunt and none have ever told me they want the animals to suffer needlessly.

If Vick is guilty I hope he gets the max jail time and fine. A person that acts in this manner SHOULD be made an example.

FM

[Losac]

Um, dogs aren't beings. But I agree with the premise.


Still can't quite put my finger on this. How is a dog not a being? It is a living thing, is it not?

[Fanman]

I agree w/ Losac...a dog is a "being"...as is any other living thing. For the sake of comparison I would not say a rock or hunk of metal is a "being".

FM

[crazyraven]

You and President Bush should get together and figure out some more ways to link Iraq to 9/11, or some other nonsensical links.
Who knows if Iraq had any thing to do with it. As far as I know Every country known to man thought Iraq had WMDs. The point was I feel worse when Humans die then when a undomesticated dogs does, I'm funny that way.

[festivus]

I don't like it when people get robbed at gunpoint. I also don't like it when stuff gets shoplifted from my grocery store. One is more objectionable then the other, but they are both immoral, and both crimes. Also neither chickens nor weapons of mass destruction are known historically as 'man's best friend.'

Please oh please oh please let tomorrow be Training Camp. . . .

[purplepoe]

Per Sirius NFL radio:

Goodell has told Vick not to report to training camp until the NFL conducts a full review of what's going on.

PP

[RavensNTerps]

Again, I'll say it.

If this was Brett Favre putting a bullet in a defenseless deer's brain (and no, not using the meat for food) it'd be "there's the good ole Brett being Brett!"

Look. I don't condone dog fighting. And I certainly don't condone electrocuting and hanging dogs and drowning them or whatever.

But to deny at least a subtle double standard is naive.

Portis was at least somewhat right in that regard.

And yes, what Vick supposedly did is worse than hunting, I'm not going to argue that. But that being said, no one gets up in arms over athletes hunting big game animals.

Is it because they kill the animals "humanely?" If you're going to be an "animal lover" then the question is "who gives a shit?" In the court of law, is there a real difference between a murder case in which the suspect puts a bullet in the victim's brain or one in which the victim is murdered by drowning or electrocution?

Yeah. I'm against hunting. And dog fighting. And I eat meat. And i'm not an animal lover at all.

[purplepoe]

Again, I'll say it.

If this was Brett Favre putting a bullet in a defenseless deer's brain (and no, not using the meat for food) it'd be "there's the good ole Brett being Brett!"

Look. I don't condone dog fighting. And I certainly don't condone electrocuting and hanging dogs and drowning them or whatever.

But to deny at least a subtle double standard is naive.

Portis was at least somewhat right in that regard.

And yes, what Vick supposedly did is worse than hunting, I'm not going to argue that. But that being said, no one gets up in arms over athletes hunting big game animals.

Is it because they kill the animals "humanely?" If you're going to be an "animal lover" then the question is "who gives a shit?" In the court of law, is there a real difference between a murder case in which the suspect puts a bullet in the victim's brain or one in which the victim is murdered by drowning or electrocution?

Yeah. I'm against hunting. And dog fighting. And I eat meat. And i'm not an animal lover at all.


And again, you'd be way off base.

You personal beliefs don't change the fact that it is illegal to fight dogs. If you wanna beat your chest about makin all hunting illegal, then call your local representative.

And why do you keep bringing up Brett Favre? Don't answer that because it's pretty obvious. Hunting laws have been on the books for a long time. Deer are hunted for a few different reasons. One being many are used as food. Another being that the deer population MUST be controlled.

As far as your double standard take. Many people believe that getting behind the wheel or a car drunk is much worse than getting behind the wheel if your stoned on pot. Yet alcohol is legal and pot is illegal. Those are the laws.

Your last line is hilarious by the way. You're against hunting and you eat meat. How exactly do you think meat gets to your plate? It might not be hunted but an animal is killed so that you can enjoy your chicken sandwich or your steak dinner.

PP

[crazyraven]

Hunting laws are on the books

Gambling, hooking, booze and host of other sinful activities are on the books in some states, does that make it morally OK? I guess if Vick had a licence all would be good. Hunters go out to kill for entertainment, and BS to all the posters who will say they hunt for the "Food". If you need food go to the local food store. Hunters just want to fire off a weapon and say they killed something, anything.

[festivus]

You're against hunting and you eat meat. How exactly do you think meat gets to your plate? It might not be hunted but an animal is killed so that you can enjoy your chicken sandwich or your steak dinner.

The Protein Fairy brings it to the supermarket.

Or perhaps the objection is to *hunting*, but the careless, sloppy and sometimes cruel executions of countless farm animals is not objectionable, but going out and hunting in the woods *is*, I guess. :)

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion on whether something (hunting, abortion, shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater, same sex marriage, etc. etc.) should be legal or illegal. Once something *is* illegal, it's illegal, and if you get caught doing it, you can go to jail. And if you get caught doing it for a lot of money, transporting components across state lines, you can get prosecuted by the Fed.s, and then you're up the creek.

Concerning RnT's "double standard," that's if you accept as he does the premise that deer=dog, which is contradicted by centuries of tradition in this country and elsewhere in which the dog is man's best friend, and hunting deer in the wild is an acceptable activity. Don't like it? Fine, object. I don't care to hunt or even to fish myself, so I understand & sympathize. But to call it a 'double standard', implying some (classist? racist?) malice while ignoring the reality of history and tradition is, to use your word, naive. Don't like all the laws? Me either. But just because I don't like such and such a law, doesn't mean it carries a double standard. It just means I don't like it, maybe for a good reason, and I'd change it if I could.

@#$!ing thread. I told myself I wouldn't post here.

[Fanman]

Well said Festivus. The twist now comes to see if/what Blank will do since Goodell has asked Vick to not report to camp. I have a pal down in Atlanta and he already said the fan base is becoming divided over this case.

FM

[Bez513]

Well said Festivus. The twist now comes to see if/what Blank will do since Goodell has asked Vick to not report to camp. I have a pal down in Atlanta and he already said the fan base is becoming divided over this case.

FM

And I'm sure the divide is along color lines too.

[Fanman]

yes Bez...that seems to be how the lines have been drawn so far. IMO this has nothing to do w/ race, but integrity and character.

FM

[Greg]

There is a difference between hunting, where the animals are not tortured, and dog fighting.

It isn't JUST the dog fighting, beyond the hangings and electrocutions and beatings to kill the losers or those who won't fight, we also have the "training." These dogs are tortured and abused for a very long time to make them killing machines, then let loose on each other.

I tried hunting a few times and gave it up. There was a certain thrill to shoot something and bring it down. I was hunting geese (they mate for life) and brought down one in a pair with an incredible shot from quite a distance. The mate turned back to their fallen mate and was dropped by somebody else in the process. I haven't shot at anything since.

That being said, we did not torture these animals to "train" them and we didn't let them loose on each other to fight for who knows how long, then kill the loser (if they didn't die in the fight) with some kind of disgusting method.

Seriously, you people trying to excuse this is baffling. Having hunted, hunters get the thrill from shooting something trying to evade them, it is the hunt, not the kill. For these people the thrill was in the torturing and killing.

[purplepoe]

Gambling, hooking, booze and host of other sinful activities are on the books in some states, does that make it morally OK? I guess if Vick had a licence all would be good. Hunters go out to kill for entertainment, and BS to all the posters who will say they hunt for the "Food". If you need food go to the local food store. Hunters just want to fire off a weapon and say they killed something, anything.

No shit CR. Gambling is illegal is alot of states. And alot of people go to jail for breaking that law. Same goes for hooking. You are just proving my point. Whether or not you agree with hunting, the fact is that it's legal. So this whole notion that hunting deer or another animal that's legal to hunt is somehow equal to fighting dogs which is ILLEGAL is an argument that is laughable at best.

Hunting is legal.

Dog fighting is not.

Those are the FACTS.

Your argument just died right there.

And rack Greg.

PP

[Rochardrik]

What does this have to do with dog fighting again? This seems like a thread hijack, which is why it bothers me most.


T, obviously you're entitled to your opinions on food processing and what food to eat. But really, like PurplePoe said, many of these side arguments have nothing to do with the inhumanity that Vick and his thugs friends have displayed and cruelty the dogs in question have gone through.


Vick deserves whats coming to him once its proven he's guilty.
People trying to compare dog fighting to killing animals to eat. That's what this comment is about. In the early days of this country, hunting was the main source of food meat. The population growth, and the massive urban growth has dictated another method of obtaining "food" meat. The hunters DO enjoy the "hunt" , I personally think it is simply a way for them to be , in their minds, "real Men". However, since the dog domesticated itself, thousands of years ago, they have been involved in EVERY endeavor known to man. There IS a difference. The laws regarding dog fighting are just and correct, except they probably aren't strong enough! As to the racial divide thing... Hogwash! I don't care who you are, they are, who it is, this kind of "alleged" activity comes only from bottom feeding scum suckers!:hammer:

[Fanman]

I am praying no Ravens are implicated in this mess when the details come out in court. If so, I would like to see Biscotti suspend them or release them from the team outright.

You can bet other NFL players are involved to some degree.

FM

[darb72]

Hmm... quite a bit to catch up on here.

First off; Poe said his wife wants a dog but he refuses to let her have one. Might want to check the fine print on that marriage liscense. She wins. Trust me.

Secondly; I'm against torturing any defenseless animal/person. What was done to those dogs is simply sick and the people responsible should be put in jail for the rest of their lives.

Third; Humans are omnivores. Our bodies require the minerals found in red meat. Yes, those minerals can be obtianed in dietary suppliments, but honestly I'd rather eat a steak than swallow a pill.

Fourth; Hunting. Sucks. I've been more than once and killed quite a few deer. My major sticking point is folks who sit in tree stands all day long. That's not hunting. That's WAITING.

[festivus]

My major sticking point is folks who sit in tree stands all day long. That's not hunting. That's WAITING.

:rolling:
Don't know where you've been, Darb, but I'm glad your back. :toast: